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[Drinky Crow]

I'd rather it stayed 2D. Detailed 3D backgrounds, crazy high-res sprites, segmented monsters: YUM.

Fuck immersion. GO OUTSIDE YOU LOSERS.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Yea, i'll go explore a magma lake, a crashed alien ship and the phazon mines in my backyard this afternoon, cya later!

 

[Hellraizah]

I'd rather it stayed 2D. Detailed 3D backgrounds, crazy high-res sprites, segmented monsters: YUM.

Fuck immersion. GO OUTSIDE YOU LOSERS.

You're violating copyrights on my thoughts.

 

[drohne]

i never thought metroid prime was particularly strong on immersion anyway. the close juxtaposition of a FIRE LEVEL, an ICE LEVEL, and a RUINS LEVEL was probably more abstract and videogamey than the classic metroid games, even. really it just needed a MINE CART LEVEL. a cute HUD doesn't entail immersion. it's just a cute HUD.

and yeah, metroid should've been:

1. 2d
2. handled by r&d1

prime's lamentable success might mean that we'll never see a real console metroid again. the only thing that restrains my RIGHTEOUS FANBOY BILE is the existence of the rad gba versions. i suppose i can pray for a prime 2 backlash. the central conceit is pretty stupid!

 

[jarrod]

You can say the platforming is simplistic, but that would hardly stop Retro from being able to build vertical levels. You just couldn't have the complicated jumping you did in the 2D games (not that they were ever THAT complicated), but they could still be vertical. Retro clearly just decided against it, first person or not.

You're sidestepping the issue by using what was done as an excuse for what's possible. The fact is, 3rd person 3D platforming is more precise than 1st person 3D platforming... I'd say Retro certainly has the talent to make compelling vertical world designs if given the proper perspective to make intricate platforming viable. And doing so would've broken up the monotony in Prime's backtracking for many I'd wager.

There were lots of corridors which Samus would have basically filled from 3rd person. They'd have had to at the very least made them taller, probably wider too. How else could you see the enemies beyond her to lock onto?

Well maybe the game was all corridors after the Phazon Mines, I don't really know. But I'd say a good 90% of the environments before that could've been left untouched if switched to 3rd person perspective.

Well, Nintendo's reasoning is that they tried 3rd person and it didn't work because of camera issues, but I guess they wanted to keep the other things like lock on when moving to first person.

But it makes no sense. The move to 1st person was deemed necessary for targeting (I've never heard mention of camera issues outside the corridor thing, and then it was a targeting issue still), that was the line Nintendo gave out.... then why bother with auto targeting? Why keep 3rd person mechanics in 1st person design?

The lack of vertical jump is due to the 3D and tight space than the POV.

I disagree! SIR!!

edit : and the original metroid creator was working on a third person metroid at the same time than Retro was working on Prime. Maybe you should ask nintendo why they scraped it ?

Probably because N64 was no longer a viable platform.

 

[Buggy Loop]

i never thought metroid prime was particularly strong on immersion anyway. the close juxtaposition of a FIRE LEVEL, an ICE LEVEL, and a RUINS LEVEL was probably more abstract and videogamey than the classic metroid games, even. really it just needed a MINE CART LEVEL. a cute HUD doesn't entail immersion. it's just a cute HUD.

and yeah, metroid should've been:

1. 2d
2. handled by r&d1

prime's lamentable success might mean that we'll never see a real console metroid again. the only thing that restrains my RIGHTEOUS FANBOY BILE is the existence of the rad gba versions. i suppose i can pray for a prime 2 backlash. the central conceit is pretty stupid!

Ohhhh, drohne and dragona, hand in hand, kissing in front of a burning retro studio

 

[jarrod]

prime's lamentable success might mean that we'll never see a real console metroid again. the only thing that restrains my RIGHTEOUS FANBOY BILE is the existence of the rad gba versions. i suppose i can pray for a prime 2 backlash. the central conceit is pretty stupid!

Given they've handed NST (*shudder*) the DS game, we may never get a real Metroid again period.

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

Wave Race Blue Storm kicks ass!

 

[Drinky Crow]

Hunters looks like a total abortion. I mean, at least the slick graphics made Prime tolerable for a time. Now that they've dropped that down to PSOne levels (BUT OMG THE STYLUS ACTION), there shouldn't be ANY reason to play it save series fetishism.

 

[Mama Smurf]

You're like the anti-me drohne. Never in my life have I seen someone I disagree with on so many points about so many things (unless they're just complete idiots like greekboy, I think he was just trying to piss us all off though).

 

[deadhorse32]

I disagree! SIR!!

SHOCK i don't expect you to change your mind

Probably because N64 was no longer a viable platform.

Not according to Dragona

 

[Mama Smurf]

You're sidestepping the issue by using what was done as an excuse for what's possible. The fact is, 3rd person 3D platforming is more precise than 1st person 3D platforming... I'd say Retro certainly has the talent to make compelling vertical world designs if given the proper perspective to make intricate platforming viable. And doing so would've broken up the monotony in Prime's backtracking for many I'd wager.

No, I'm not sidestepping the issue at all. The issue is: was the move to 3D or the 1st person perspective the reason fro less vertical levels. That's what I'm talking about and have been talking about throughout, so argue with me all you want, just don't tell me I'm sidestepping the issue when clearly I'm not.

Yes, 3rd person is more precise. But your argument against vertical lvels makes no sense. It doesn't matter that it's more precise, that doesn't stop Retro making vertcial levels. They can make the damn things still, just allowing us more room to make the jumps! If I actually missed jumps in first person Metroid, your point would hold, but I rarely do, no more than in third person games, so it makes no damn difference!

Well maybe the game was all corridors after the Phazon Mines, I don't really know. But I'd say a good 90% of the environments before that could've been left untouched if switched to 3rd person perspective.

It's been a long time since I've played it so I don't specifically remember the areas after the phazon mines, but I know that throughout there were corridors. Plenty of ok areas, sure, but I think that figure would be nearer 50-60%.

But it makes no sense. The move to 1st person was deemed necessary for targeting (I've never heard mention of camera issues outside the corridor thing, and then it was a targeting issue still), that was the line Nintendo gave out.... then why bother with auto targeting? Why keep 3rd person mechanics in 1st person design?

God I dunno, ask Nintendo. It's their reasoning, I can't even remember exactly what's said. We'd probably need to see a demo of it in third person to see what they're on about.

 

[jarrod]

You're like the anti-me drohne. Never in my life have I seen someone I disagree with on so many points about so many things (unless they're just complete idiots like greekboy, I think he was just trying to piss us all off though).

You both like Pikmin. Kiss and make up.

 

[drohne]

it's been suggested in this thread that i kiss both dragona and mama smurf. must be cos i'm so kissable.

at any rate, i doubt i'm the anti-you. i bet we're both american postadolescents who spend significant chunks of the day on the same videogame message board. that probably implies some commonality. disagreements about nintendo can seem like a huge deal sometimes. but there's a wider world. the anti-you is probably an itinerant hashish dealer in kazakhstan. or ted koppel. or something.

 

[Mama Smurf]

I'm not a dirty American swine!

The rest is true though.

 

[Drinky Crow]

Chulip 2: Drohne Boogaloo

 

[drohne]

well, a quick search through your posting history revealed that you watch a lot of awful american television. but then so does the itinerant kazakhstani hash dealer, i bet. :/

 

[levious]

Should Metroid Prime have been 3rd person?

yes, if only to prevent all the Halo vs. Metroid Prime threads.

 

[Makura]

Does it really matter? The Metroid series is about atmosphere, and seeing things from Samus's perspective was the best route for the series in 3D.

 

[clipunderground]

The point is not problems with the jumping per se. It's that the jumping and platforming depth, fun factor, and degree of control is nowhere near that of any other Metroid game. It's a sacrifice and a change in gameplay that I don't think is worth the other tradeoffs of the 1st person view.

I have to whole heartidly disagree. I'm one of the biggest metroid whores around and I think Metroid Prime is one of the best in the series. The transition to 1st person was the smoothest in gaming history as far as I'm concerned.

 

[ourumov]

Yes, it should.
First person view was just used to fight the lack of shooters on the system and to have some kind of Halo-Killer. Well, this and the fact that Retro Studios = Iguana.

 

[Sergenth]

Oddworld Stranger, with it's hot-switching between 1st and 3rd, will settle this debate with the ever popular "best of both worlds" solution.

 

[jarrod]

No, I'm not sidestepping the issue at all. The issue is: was the move to 3D or the 1st person perspective the reason fro less vertical levels. That's what I'm talking about and have been talking about throughout, so argue with me all you want, just don't tell me I'm sidestepping the issue when clearly I'm not.

Yes, 3rd person is more precise. But your argument against vertical lvels makes no sense. It doesn't matter that it's more precise, that doesn't stop Retro making vertcial levels. They can make the damn things still, just allowing us more room to make the jumps!

Jumping in Prime was servicable but an abundance of it likely would have brought out the flaws in 1st person platforming (no disrespect to Jumping Flash). Sure Retro could've expanded vertical world design in Prime as is, though not with a positive respone I'd bet. A move to 3rd parson however would've allowed for more rewarding platforming and help facilitate that shift.... obviously most of this is hypotheticals but really that's all we have to go on when discussing a 3rd person 3d Metroid.

If I actually missed jumps in first person Metroid, your point would hold, but I rarely do, no more than in third person games, so it makes no damn difference!

So long as we're using our own tastes to set the standard... the platforming was dissapointingly substandard in Metroid Prime. It marks a clear break from the rest of the franchise, something that you don't find to the same degree in Mario or Zelda's 3D translations. It felt like half a Metroid. I miss that other half, therefore it makes a world of difference!

It's been a long time since I've played it so I don't specifically remember the areas after the phazon mines, but I know that throughout there were corridors. Plenty of ok areas, sure, but I think that figure would be nearer 50-60%.

Naw, the only corridors where one literally couldn't see past Samus would be those small tight connecting corridors that resembled tubes (sometimes with the army of insects). Everything else almost could be fully navigated in 3rd person, that's a far cry from half the game.

 

[Ristamar]

I'd chime in, but Buggy and Milhouse already read my mind.

 

[jett]

"Metroid Prime" was designed from the ground up as a FPS. So no, giving it a 3rd person perspective wouldn't make it "better". Screw you haters, I loved MP.

P.S.: Metroid Fusion sucked.

 

[Mama Smurf]

Jumping in Prime was servicable but an abundance of it likely would have brought out the flaws in 1st person platforming (no disrespect to Jumping Flash). Sure Retro could've expanded vertical world design in Prime as is, though not with a positive respone I'd bet. A move to 3rd person however would've allowed for more rewarding platforming and help facilitate that shift.... obviously most of this is hypotheticals but really that's all we have to go on when discussing a 3rd person 3d Metroid.

Do you not remember that area in the Chozo Ruins (I think, it was definitely that golden look)? It was a long vertical pipe you had to jump up. I wish I could remember what I was getting to the top to find, I don't know if it was an item, an artifact, a missile upgrade...I can't remember so it'll be hard to jog your memory. Anyway, I had to do a lot of jumping to climb that, and it worked perfectly well. If anyone remembers the bit I mean, please say.

So long as we're using our own tastes to set the standard... the platforming was dissapointingly substandard in Metroid Prime. It marks a clear break from the rest of the franchise, something that you don't find to the same degree in Mario or Zelda's 3D translations. It felt like half a Metroid. I miss that other half, therefore it makes a world of difference!

Of course we're using our own tastes to set the standard, we do that with practically everything we talk about! There isn't a sales thread, there are no figures to work with, all we can do is use our own opinions on what worked and didn't. And when we get down to it, you thought the platforming was substandard, I thought it was fine, and there's nowhere we can go with it.

Mario and Zelda lost things in the transition too. Mario used to be following a set path to a goal, now it's free roaming worlds. A lot of people resent the change, especially after the warp levels worked so well. Zelda on the other hand has lost a lot of challenge moving into 3D. I'm not sure exactly why that is, I suppose the lock on must play a part, but it's certainly true that the 3D games are a lot easier than the 2D ones (even the 2D Zeldas that have comne out since the 3D versions were made).

Every game loses something when moving to 3D, but I feel Metroid made the jump as good as any.

Naw, the only corridors where one literally couldn't see past Samus would be those small tight connecting corridors that resembled tubes (sometimes with the army of insects). Everything else almost could be fully navigated in 3rd person, that's a far cry from half the game.

Now that's just not true. There were lots of corridors in that first area, the spacestation, that weren't like those tube ones. In the Chozo Ruins there were normal corridors (not tube ones), those ones with the green lazers, that uneven one with the bugs which lit it and you could shoot them out to dim things, the area with the poisonous water and big toad monster that you have to role into a ball and plant a bomb in to kill...that's just the beginning of the game and I doubt I've covered it all even for just those areas. I'm just doing it from a 2 year old memory, I'm sure there are many more.

 

[Tellaerin]

So is Prime more immersive than Super Metroid? Should Nintendo be putting presentation ahead of game design/mechanics? Why not give Prime normal fps controls?

We got a "realistic" Zelda thanks to the backlash... would everyone turn their noses up at Echoes if it had been 3rd person?

Prime is more immersive than Super Metroid. And in a game that's about exploration, presentation is an important aspect of the game design. Using the first-person perspective to put the player in Samus' shoes (er, suit) enhances the sense of 'being there' immeasurably, transforming what could've been 'Tomb-Raiding-with-Samus' in the 3rd person into an unforgettable experience. I think that more than justifies a slight sacrifice in jumping precision, especially in a game that's not structured around platforming in the way the 2D titles were in the first place.

 

[JJConrad]

Do you not remember that area in the Chozo Ruins (I think, it was definitely that golden look)? It was a long vertical pipe you had to jump up. I wish I could remember what I was getting to the top to find, I don't know if it was an item, an artifact, a missile upgrade...I can't remember so it'll be hard to jog your memory. Anyway, I had to do a lot of jumping to climb that, and it worked perfectly well. If anyone remembers the bit I mean, please say.

You are thinking of the Tower of Light, where Samus finds the Wavebuster.

Metroid Prime had many rooms with verticle platforming. The Root Cave and Life Grove Tunnel of the Tallon Overworlds, plus most of the Crashed Frigate; the Tower of Loght, Gathering Hall, and Vault Access of the Chozo Ruins; almost half of the Phendrana Drifts and a couple area in the Phazon Mines and Magmoor Caverns.

Verticle platforming in the previous Metroid games was mostly limited to the access tunnels connecting the many branching horizantal rooms. Infact, the only Metroid that should even be considered in the platformer family is the first game. The rest were relatively limited in platforming, as exploration became the primiary focus.


I understand why some people might want a 3rd-person, 2D ("2.5D") Metroid game. I don't understand why people think that a 3rd-person, 3d Metroid would be better than what Prime is. Has there been any decent 3rd person shooters with good jumping or platforming abilities? None that I can think of.

The camera won't allow for it, because 2 seperate camera systems are required for a shooter and a platformer. In SMS the camera stays further out and doesn't immidiately adjust when Mario turns around. It keeps the level in veiw, not the enemies, and any aiming that may be required is right in front of Mario. In 3rd person shooters, the camera either adjust for the enemies or remains behind the character, showing whatever is in front of them. Any attempt to combine the 2 would result in a camera system that would keep moving in the wrong directions, or a system very similar to what already exsist in a 1st person view. Without a good example of how a 3rd person shooter can properly achieve decent platforming, it's ridiculous to wish Metroid Prime was one... especially when Metroid Prime was as great as it was.

 

[thomaser]

I think we're best off as it is. Classic platform-heavy precision jumping and running in the 2D GBA-games, and wonderfully immersive exploring in the Prime-games. I'd rather have it this way, with two equally successful (in my opinion) takes on the series, than have all the Metroid-games follow the same formula. Two styles keeps things fresh.

Of course, this requires that the 2D-games will continue on the DS, but I'm positive that they will, even if the first Metroid on DS is 3D.

 

[Mumbles]

I'll vote yes, simply because I can't stand first-person games.

 

[Chrono]

As long as we can only speculate on how a 3rd person Metroid would be, the arguments could swing both ways. I'm hoping that the Revolution pushes Retro to try new things with Metroid (including 3rd person at least as an option). If the N64 wasn't powerful enough for some things, then I'm sure the same could be said for Gamecube.


Man I can't wait to see unreal 3 quality graphics on Metroid 3. We’ll probably have to wait a while for that since Retro won't be making a Metroid game after Echoes.

 

[Alcibiades]

Brought this up in another thread, but no one seems to be able give a good counter argument. Anyway...

The original reasoning behind making Metroid 3D 1st person was that it was needed for targeting, combat being primairily long range. But since lock-on targeting was included the game could still be reasonably well done from a 3rd person perspective (as targeting" is minimal to begin with) while melee combat preserved (screw attack, dash attack, etc) and it'd make platforming much more natural. If NCL/Retro demanded a move to first person perspective why keep relying on lock-on? Why essentially make a 1st person game with 3rd person controls? Why not go for 3rd person and be truer to the franchise and expand the jumping/platforming elements?

Don't know if someone has mentioned it yet, but the reasoning behind the 1st person perspective in Metroid Prime was that the team (and/or Miyamoto as well) noticied that in adventure/exploration games, many times people would switch to a first-person perspective during their travels (Banjo-Kazooie, Mario, Zelda, etc...), so they went with that full-on...

http://cube.ign.com/articles/377/377001p1.html?fromint=1

Also, when asked about what kind of game Metroid Prime should be labeled as, Retro Studios' Steve Barcia, executive producer, said "It's an eerie isolated experience." He further noted about it being deemed a first-person shooter, "We weren't trying to fit in that genre." And, according to Mr. Miyamoto, when development started the team decided, "We're going to call this an exploration game."

you can read the whole roundtable thing here:

http://cube.ign.com/articles/377/377563p1.html

but this is the important quote:

http://cube.ign.com/articles/377/377563p4.html

Mark: Miyamoto-san asked us, "What is the most natural thing to do when you're trying to look around and explore in any kind of game?" It's looking in the first-person view. It's very natural for an exploration game to be based heavily on looking through the first-person. That was a very important question that was presented to us, and it made many of our design decisions easier to make.

anyway, I think they made the right decision and Metroid Prime is easily one of my favorite games ever...

for me this was the best game of '02...

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

To me, Metroid Prime was the shortest of the Metroids, it was the least fun of the Metroids, and it was the easiest of the Metroids. So, no, it should not have been in 1st person. From a financial perspective, it was a good decision. Johnny Casual wants his games like that, so it sold better than a traditional platformer Metroid game would have. But if you were to ask me personally, no, no it wasn't a good decision.

 

[Gruco]

(formal endorsement of everything jarrod says in this thread)

 

[Mama Smurf]

Did you really find it shortest? Really? It's been a long, long time since I played the original and I've never played part 2, but I definitely completed Super Metroid quicker and Zero Mission took me no time.

I find it hard to believe you beat it faster than ZM in particular.

 

[Korranator]

To me, Metroid Prime was the shortest of the Metroids, it was the least fun of the Metroids, and it was the easiest of the Metroids.

*cough* bullshit *cough*

 

[disabledHeliocentric]

Imo, no. for these reasons:

1. In First person the game has NO camera issues
2. If you look at other games, like Ninja Gaiden in the ICE and Magma cave levels(very prime like) or Mario Sunshine in the hotel level you'll find that the camera messes up in those areas more than others in those games, and Metroid has a LOT of THOS kinds of areas meaning the usual Nintendo style camera would have been BAD.
3. The only viable alternative IMO would have been third person except with dual analog shooter controls such as brute Force, Metal Arms, Max Payne etc. have.
4. I like Metroid Prime as is. Very immersive and loads of fun.

 

[etiolate]

My counter argument?

Splinter Cell made me think "This is what Metroid would be like in 3rd person." In other words, a camera constantly getting behind tight corridors and walls.

PS: Metroid Prime is one of the longer metroids.

 

[AniHawk]

Not that I particularly enjoyed Metroid Prime... but I felt that the choice to make it first person if it was going into 3D ended up being a good one. I still enjoy the 2D games much, much more than Prime, but the 1st person view worked very well for the game.

 

[DjangoReinhardt]

Absolutely. The game would have benefitted from a manual targeting system, too. I'm all for making games playable, but good games don't sacrifice the actual gameplay for that accessibility.

 

[Deg]

Fusion was awful. Prime, now thats a good game!

 

[AniHawk]

Fusion was awful. Prime, now thats a good game!

Zero Mission, Fusion, Super Metroid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Metroid Prime

 

[Stryder]

No

There is no way I would have gotten as much enjoyment out of it as I did if it were in a first person view.

 

[Kuramu]

I thought 1st person worked well for a Metroid game. I also prefer 2D Metroids, especially ZM. Having both seems alright to me.

My only problem with the way MP was done is that, as a game that focuses on exploration, i would have liked the ability to look around freely as i walked. like i would in GoldenEye using 2 controllers. Makes it much easier to judge where things are. The Lock camera into a looking upish direction then walk kinda did the job, but was clunky. could've been better. Still loved it though

Something about Prime... not sure what... it's the only Metroid other than Fusion that i didn't enjoy very much the second time. At least i loved Prime the first time... same can't be said for Fusion.

 

[Deg]

Zero Mission, Fusion, Super Metroid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Metroid Prime

C'mon Fusion wasnt that good.

 

[Jumpman]

Metroid Prime is the best reviewed game since the almighty Ocarina of Time. If there were major design flaws, then that would not have been the case. MP is brilliant the way it is. This is coming from someone who has always held the 2d Metroids as one of their 2 or 3 favorite series. I would love a 3rd person 3d Metroid if it was done to perfection, but I don't think that is possible. There hasn't been one 3rd person action game in the history of 3d games that has a perfect camera system.

The jumping in MP was perfect. I haven't played a 3rd person game that could do MP like platforming any better.

I don't understand why some of you who love the 2d Metroids dislike MP. I went in to playing MP with the proper amount of skepticism and came away thinking it might be even better than Super Metroid, and I worship Super Metroid. MP had a nearly flawless transition to 3d. I don't understand why it didn't work for you, but I am fully satisfied with how the series has evolved. A majority of people obviously agree with me on this. You can see that on these boards, in the reviews for the game, and also in the great sales MP has acheived.

As far as vertical jumping sections go, I thought that there were a good amount in MP. That said, would any of you haters be satisfied if Metroid Prime implemented more of these sections? These sections could switch to a side scrolling perspective, ala Super Metroid, like the 2.5d morph ball sections in Prime. These parts would be just like classic Metroid segments, but with current graphics technology. I think this would be a good way to appease some of you bitter hardline old schoolers, while at the same time, keep intact what MP has already done so well.

 

[Ranger X]

Metroid Prime was an excellent game. My only thing i can call a flaw in it is the fact it's FP view. I agree it works for this game, the game is very well done and it controls very good. But it could have been much more if it was third person view imo.

There was many reasons they could have made this game FP view and most probably one of those reason is that the FPS style is strong in the industry and maybe they thought it would get them more sales or something.

Samus is one of the best looking (if not TEH best looking) videogame character ever. Everybody drools at the the small cut-scenes where we see her in the Prime games. What about seeing her all the time playing in third person view? That would be god sent.

And immersion does not need a first person view. So many games are freaking immersive and plays in other views than first person.

Visors? who cares. Do we need a first person view to have thermal goggles and night vision in Metal Gear Solid or Splinter Cell? - no. Why should we need first person view in Prime then?

There's no fucking reason for that first-person view except the lack of game design vision from Retro Studios. Gimme Prime 3 in third person glory please. Need to target stuff Retro? Play some of your competitor's games like Zelda WW and Rachet and Clanck 2-3 and you will see how to execute simple targetting in third person view extremely well.

 

[Hitman]

1st PERSON ALL THE WAY YOU IDIOTS. 3RD PERSON WOULD HAVE SUCKED NUTS! NUTSSSSSSSSS!

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Samus is dead. Long live Samus.

 

[Deleted member 284]

Your slipping, it took you two whole pages to post the picture. I guess hatred decreases with time