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Singing & Vocalism OT

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Mumei

Member
Falsetto is a fundamentally different part of the voice, more like a whistle. The vocal folds are held taught and don't vibrate against each other, whilst air rushes past.

Yeah, I know the difference in physical function - they folds themselves don't vibrate against one another, but the vibrating edges of the vocal ligaments do make contact. My issue is consistently identifying when I am actually hearing a man sing in falsetto versus singing in head voice. Every thing I hear about that Pavarotti note says "falsetto" to me; the only reason I'm unsure is because I have little confidence in my ability to differentiate for men, and it sounds more 'full' than similar, un-amplified falsetto F5 notes from men. I suppose it could be falsettone, though I don't have enough confidence in my ability to identify that since I'm basically going off of hearsay for what I should be listening for.

But yeah, between microphones, the lot of overlap in dynamic range in the fifth octave between multiple registers, and the fact that strain can make something sound 'chesty' when it isn't, I'm often a bit unsure as to whether I'm hearing something in falsetto, head voice, falsettone, or occasionally even mixed voice when I'm hearing male singers in popular music hitting notes above, like F5 in at least a pretty loud dynamic. And with opera singers, I almost never heard anything other than the standard chest / blended passaggio / covered high notes that all blends together with a more or less even tonal quality.

Here's a fantastic tenor that I've had the pleasure of seeing live, nailing the Credeasi Miseri high F in modal voice.

That's beautiful. I love the vibrato on the note.

An(other) example of tenor falsetto in opera (according to Juan Diego Florez) is the 11 high Cs in Ah Mes Amis! from La Fille du Regiment. The Cs at octaves were supposed to be in falsetto for a yodeling effect, as the character is from the alps, but once someone did it in full voice, everyone else had to or risk looking like a wimp.

Mmhm. There's a tenor 'documentary' of sorts - this one- where Florez talks about the High Cs in Ah Mes Amis!

And it was Gilbert Duprez, in a performance of Guillaume Tell! Rossini wasn't happy about it, but everyone else seemed to love it. The tenor voice has had a lot of changes in the last century and a half with increasing orchestra sizes and the advent of covered notes - darker tone, more weight and resonance, less range and flexibility at the top due eschewing the use of falsetto / falsettone / voix mixt / head voice to achieve top notes.

Cool thread. I can't add much, I am a terrible singer. My favorite rock singers are Bowie and Freddie Mercury.

Oh, that's not a barrier to entry, trust me. ;)

Can't say I have every been an opera fan, but I loved Freddie's album he did with Montserrat Caballé.

Barcelona - Freddie Mercury & Montserrat Caballé

I used to go around the house and sing out BARCELONA!!, my wife thought I was nuts....

Honestly, being a fan of Freddie Mercury and getting introduced to quasi-operatic singing with his crossover work with Monsterrat is where I first got an interest in listening to opera. It's really only "clicked" for me in the last two years, though.

I will add this tidbit I just found out, Samuel Ramey, a world renowned Opera singer, grew up and went to High School in the little town in Kansas where I was born in, and lived in until I was 6 years old.....my Dad was the only doctor in town, if Mr. Ramey every had throat problems as a kid, he probably went to see my dad....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Ramey

Samuel Ramey / The Impossible Dream

That's cool. That's a great performance, though I can't look at his face while he sings. There's something disconcerting about the way he holds his mouth.
 

leroidys

Member
Yeah, I know the difference in physical function - they folds themselves don't vibrate against one another, but the vibrating edges of the vocal ligaments do make contact. My issue is consistently identifying when I am actually hearing a man sing in falsetto versus singing in head voice. Every thing I hear about that Pavarotti note says "falsetto" to me; the only reason I'm unsure is because I have little confidence in my ability to differentiate for men, and it sounds more 'full' than similar, un-amplified falsetto F5 notes from men. I suppose it could be falsettone, though I don't have enough confidence in my ability to identify that since I'm basically going off of hearsay for what I should be listening for.

But yeah, between microphones, the lot of overlap in dynamic range in the fifth octave between multiple registers, and the fact that strain can make something sound 'chesty' when it isn't, I'm often a bit unsure as to whether I'm hearing something in falsetto, head voice, falsettone, or occasionally even mixed voice when I'm hearing male singers in popular music hitting notes above, like F5 in at least a pretty loud dynamic. And with opera singers, I almost never heard anything other than the standard chest / blended passaggio / covered high notes that all blends together with a more or less even tonal quality.



That's beautiful. I love the vibrato on the note.



Mmhm. There's a tenor 'documentary' of sorts - this one- where Florez talks about the High Cs in Ah Mes Amis!

And it was Gilbert Duprez, in a performance of Guillaume Tell! Rossini wasn't happy about it, but everyone else seemed to love it. The tenor voice has had a lot of changes in the last century and a half with increasing orchestra sizes and the advent of covered notes - darker tone, more weight and resonance, less range and flexibility at the top due eschewing the use of falsetto / falsettone / voix mixt / head voice to achieve top notes.



Oh, that's not a barrier to entry, trust me. ;)



Honestly, being a fan of Freddie Mercury and getting introduced to quasi-operatic singing with his crossover work with Monsterrat is where I first got an interest in listening to opera. It's really only "clicked" for me in the last two years, though.



That's cool. That's a great performance, though I can't look at his face while he sings. There's something disconcerting about the way he holds his mouth.

Ah, sorry I misread. It can be hard - some people are really good at making a falsetto note sound like headvoice, and it's doubly hard to tell through a recording. In person it tends to be more obvious.
 

MrOogieBoogie

BioShock Infinite is like playing some homeless guy's vivid imagination
Hey guys, so I'd love to continue to learn how to sing, but I can't afford private lessons at the moment.

What's my next best option? I live in NYC if it matters. It's so hard to teach myself having never sang until now.
 

royalan

Member
Hey guys, so I'd love to continue to learn how to sing, but I can't afford private lessons at the moment.

What's my next best option? I live in NYC if it matters. It's so hard to teach myself having never sang until now.

It depends...what are you trying to sing like?
 

amnesiac

Member
So I'm recording my vocals for my demo. I've found that after awhile, maybe 30 seconds or so, my vocal cords get strained and sore. Lose breath quickly also (I do sing from the diaphragm). I also used to be able to hit high notes, but now they just crackle, probably due to bad technique... Can vocal cords be "rebuilt" or something? It's been like this for a month. Sorry for the stupid question.
 

royalan

Member
So I'm recording my vocals for my demo. I've found that after awhile, maybe 30 seconds or so, my vocal cords get strained and sore. Lose breath quickly also (I do sing from the diaphragm). I also used to be able to hit high notes, but now they just crackle, probably due to bad technique... Can vocal cords be "rebuilt" or something? Sorry for the stupid question.

Rest your voice!

Of course, it would be a bigger help if I knew what type of sound you were trying to achieve...but as a general rule you shouldn't be getting so fatigued after just 30 seconds of singing. Regardless of the style, singing should be pretty close to painless.

Maybe relax a bit? I know that sometimes a lot of singers confuse singer from the diaphragm with a raised larynx and lots of pressure to produce a deeper sound.

As for rebuilding the vocal chords...up to a certain point it's possible, if you don't have a lot of deep-set vocal damage. But it means RESTING your voice when you get to the place that you're describing now (voice tiring and breaking after 30 seconds of singing).

What do you mean?

Well, the type of advice you'd get would differ depending on how you're singing. Are you growling like the black metal groups posted earlier in the thread? Or are you learning to sing more in a Pop style?
 

MrOogieBoogie

BioShock Infinite is like playing some homeless guy's vivid imagination
Well, the type of advice you'd get would differ depending on how you're singing. Are you growling like the black metal groups posted earlier in the thread? Or are you learning to sing more in a Pop style?

Oh, sure, I just wasn't sure what you meant. :)

I want to learn to sing in a more traditional pop/rock style. If I could do Radiohead and Cure songs justice then my life would basically be complete. lol

My problem is that my most comfortable natural singing voice just sounds flat, but if I try to add flare to my voice (e.g., sing higher, quieter, growl a bit) all it does is restrict my breath and strain my vocal chords. I have trouble hitting notes consistently and cleanly, and basically just suck. But I'm a stubborn bastard and know with proper training it'll come to me.
 

amnesiac

Member
Rest your voice!

Of course, it would be a bigger help if I knew what type of sound you were trying to achieve...but as a general rule you shouldn't be getting so fatigued after just 30 seconds of singing. Regardless of the style, singing should be pretty close to painless.

Maybe relax a bit? I know that sometimes a lot of singers confuse singer from the diaphragm with a raised larynx and lots of pressure to produce a deeper sound.

As for rebuilding the vocal chords...up to a certain point it's possible, if you don't have a lot of deep-set vocal damage. But it means RESTING your voice when you get to the place that you're describing now (voice tiring and breaking after 30 seconds of singing).

Well the music I play is basically indie rock so just a standard non-screaming voice I guess. My range right now is about A2-E4. Right at that E4 point is where I have to add more volume which sounds awful. I'm straining something. It just feels like I have to belt to get any higher notes.

When you breathe when you sing, do you take full breaths before?

If I could have a consistent C5 I'd be happy.
 

leroidys

Member
So I'm recording my vocals for my demo. I've found that after awhile, maybe 30 seconds or so, my vocal cords get strained and sore. Lose breath quickly also (I do sing from the diaphragm). I also used to be able to hit high notes, but now they just crackle, probably due to bad technique... Can vocal cords be "rebuilt" or something? It's been like this for a month. Sorry for the stupid question.

Sounds like you might have nodes. I would stop signing and see a pathologist ASAP.

EDIT: Ah, just saw that it's singing indie rock stuff. Probably just a lack of technique. Still, difficulty after 30 seconds could point to nodes. I would try to get some kind of lessons, not only to improve your current stamina and range, but to protect your voice for the future.
 

Mumei

Member
Ah, sorry I misread. It can be hard - some people are really good at making a falsetto note sound like headvoice, and it's doubly hard to tell through a recording. In person it tends to be more obvious.

It's no problem! Who are your favorite singers? :)

Well the music I play is basically indie rock so just a standard non-screaming voice I guess. My range right now is about A2-E4. Right at that E4 point is where I have to add more volume which sounds awful. I'm straining something. It just feels like I have to belt to get any higher notes.

When you breathe when you sing, do you take full breaths before?

If I could have a consistent C5 I'd be happy.

This sounds like an issue with register coordination and your ability to move into your passaggio or higher. Unfortunately I'm not a singer or a voice teacher (and apparently some voice teachers aren't singers themselves. I have no idea how this works.), but, hey, knowledge is power. Maybe you'll find this useful. Or at least interesting! Anyway:

The human voice is an imperfect instrument, and one of the 'problems' is that the voice is not even throughout its range. There are points at which the voice changes in how it functions, which causes a 'break' in the voice. While some singers are able to disguise the points of transition through training or disgusting giftedness, they exist in every singer. These are called vocal registers. There have been a great number of vocal register schemes proposed, from two primary registers, to three, to five, and probably more. More modern studies have confirmed the primary two register scheme, with additional "acoustic" registers, or options within those primary registers (like belting / covered singing / mixed voice). I think the reason you're having a problem at that point is because Eb4 is where the voice undergoes a register break:

In the lower part of the voice, the main body of the vocal folds are thrown in vibration. As the pitch ascends, the folds are stretched by the increased pull of the cricothyroid internal tensors. This is called 'active longitudinal tension.' The maximum pitch that can normally be achieved while preserving this configuration is about Eb4 (311 Hz), at which point the vocalis muscles are fully contracted. Beyond Eb4 a completely different adjustment of the vocal folds is required. At this point there is a quick shift of musuclar function as the active tension of the vocalis muscles is completely released. This is the so-called register break. Now the crycothyroid stretches the folds until resisted by the fully distended vocal ligaments, which are within the inner margins of the vocal folds. In this configuration only those inner margins vibrate.

Also of note regarding this point of transition:

"Pressure phonetograms, as developed in Groningen for trained singers, record both subglottal pressures and sound pressure levels, and show the relationship between them. [...] At the lower pitch levels (G2 - D3), subglottal pressures are fairly uniform; in the middle portion of hte voice (E3 - D4) pressures rise gradually; at E4 a 'pressure event' takes place in which there is a significant increase in pressure. This may be related to the glottal squeeze that becomes stronger as the passaggio is approached. Above the passagio, from about F4 - Bb4, there is a marked rise in subglottal pressure, reaching a maximum of about 60 cm H2O when singing fortissimo.

Once you learn how, you should be able to effortlessly transition through this area of your voice. In opera, male singers use "covering" to extend the upward range of the "chest" register - it's some complicated interacting effects between different parts of the vocal folds and the surrounding ligaments that happens when the larynx is lowered below the point of rest by the action of the sternothyroid muscles. This allows operatic tenors to carry their "chest" voice up to C5, or sometimes higher. It's a brilliant sound, but not the sound you'd be going for, obviously. Belting is actually quite similar to covered singing and is primarily differentiated by the fact that the larynx is not placed into a lowered position. If a pop singer was to belt, and then lower their larynx, they would achieve a covered tone.

In order to have a C5 in your modal voice, you will need to belt or used mixed voice; it's just not possible to carry up the same sound (without hurting your voice!) above that point without making changes to your approach.

Unfortunately as I said, I can't give you detailed advice on how to belt properly or achieved mixed voice. If you can't afford lessons, I would suggest a) first checking to see if there's anything to that idea that you have nodes, b) if that's clear, try seeing if your library has materials. My library has a number of DVDs, books, and CDs on learning how to sing; there are also a number of Youtube channels, including some by professional vocal coaches, that have short videos that talk about aspects of vocal technique. You may also find the videos in the OP useful; sadly the belting video has been taken down but the rest are still there.

Oh, and you'll find that oftentimes singing advice uses notions like "resonating in the mask" or "placing the sound forward" or "attacking the note from above." These examples of resonance imagery shouldn't be taken as literal assertions of what is happening in your voice, though. For instance, you are resonating in the mask, it is because with proper placement you should feel the vibrations in that area of your face - but the resonance is still coming from your throat and pharynx. These are pedagogical constructs (and have been used for centuries), and useful in that respect. Since much of vocal fold function is controlled indirectly, it's easier to try to sing a certain pitch while maintaining a certain tone and have your voice do it (because you have trained your voice to naturally do what it is supposed to) as opposed to somehow thinking to yourself consciously, "I will now vibrate my vocal folds at exactly 523.251 Hz." This is obviously nonsense; no one has that sort of conscious control of their voice. Instead, a singer knows the note she wants to sing, and if she has good pitch and good control, her vocal folds will vibrate at the correct speed. The advice you'll find will largely make use of these sorts of things, which is why it helps to have a vocal coach who can give you instant feedback on what you're doing wrong and model what sort of sound you should be going for. If you are able to correctly emulate the sound, your voice will be doing what it needs to be, even if you don't actually understanding how it functions.
 

leroidys

Member
It's no problem! Who are your favorite singers? :)

In terms of tenors, I am a fan of Wunderlich, Bjorling, Gedda, Kraus, etc. I also really respect Domingo, but I think he has done too many roles that he's not suited to. I don't really like Bel Canto music, but I have a lot of respect for singers like Florez.
 

Mumei

Member
In terms of tenors, I am a fan of Wunderlich, Bjorling, Gedda, Kraus, etc. I also really respect Domingo, but I think he has done too many roles that he's not suited to. I don't really like Bel Canto music, but I have a lot of respect for singers like Florez.

What about other voices? Or are you not so interested in those?

Bjorling was the first opera singer I really, really liked, actually. I first heard his version of O Helga Natt, which is just beautiful. Those ringing High Bs are everything. I think it helped that I knew the melody so it wasn't like I was trying to get into an entirely new song, but just a different rendition of a song I knew.

I've (slowly) branched out since.

I love the bel canto style, but I've been just as happy with the verismo works as long as they are sung as well as the bel canto works are.
 

Loxley

Member
Have "What makes a Great Tenor?" and "What Makes a Great Soprano?" been posted? They're both excellent. Been meaning to post this thread for a while, but I've been away from my PC - so time to make up for lost...time. Here are some of my favorite singers/vocalists:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

David Phelps

ga0y.jpg


He's a classically trained tenor who went on to become a gospel singer and a key part of the gospel grouped called the Gaither Vocal Band over the last ten years. I have a lot of respect for him, mostly because - with a voice like his - he could easily garner a ton of mainstream success, but he (mostly) sticks to gospel and classical music because he feels its his true calling. Fun fact: He ages backwards. Over the years he's lost a lot of weight and looks ten years younger now than he did in some of the footage of him singing in the early/mid 2000's.

- The *definitive* version of 'O Holy Night' (in my opinion, of course)
- David Phelps High Notes
- 'These Are They' live performance in Israel

Songs featuring the Gaither Vocal Band (all live):

- 'Let Freedom Ring' (Yeah, the song is very 'Murica - they're a conservative gospel band after all - but holy hell at the vocal prowess and harmony. And dat ending).
- 'The Star Spangled Banner'
- 'Sow Mercy' (I particularly love the harmonizing at 3:37)

Renee Flemming (who I just found out is going to sing the national anthem at the Super Bowl this year :D)

de09.jpg


Yeah, she's one of the most famous sopranos on the planet, its easy to understand why. She has one of the most beautiful singing voices I've ever heard. Of course, as a Tolkien dork I'd be remiss to not mention that it was her work on the Return of the King OST that first introduced me to her. Her voice is one of the few that literally sends chills down my spine.

- 'Twilight and Shadow'
- 'The End of All Things' (at 1:09 and 4:07)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have a number of other favorite vocalists, but this post is already pretty long so I'll hold off for now.
 

Mumei

Member
Have "What makes a Great Tenor?" and "What Makes a Great Soprano?" been posted? They're both excellent. Been meaning to post this thread for a while, but I've been away from my PC - so time to make up for lost...time. Here are some of my favorite singers/vocalists:

Welcome! :D

I posted the "What makes a great tenor?" in a sort of incidental way in a conversation, I think somewhere on this page, but not the soprano video. Personally, I feel that the soprano video isn't nearly as interesting as the tenor one, but that may just be me.

I like both of the singers you mentioned, and especially Renée. She's incredibly versatile - not just in terms of her operatic repertoire, but in terms of the total body of her work. And unlike some singers with a diverse portfolio, she actually at least does justice to her roles. Easily the best soprano of her generation - and she seems like a wonderful person, too. I think it's wonderful that she was chosen for the National Anthem.

I don't really know as much about Phelps; I heard about him somewhere online, was specifically introduced to that cover of O Holy Night, listened to a few other songs, and that's about it. And while he doesn't have the best rendition of O Holy Night - see my post above yours - it is a wonderful one. ;)

I'd listen to more if you have other favorite songs or performances. I haven't really listened to much gospel from the white evangelical churches; my (limited) gospel experience came as a result of listening to R&B and soul music, reading about gospel influences, and becoming curious about that, and that leads you to the black church.
 

Mumei

Member
I need an excuse to revive my topic, so I'll use this~

I watched a few Master Class sessions with Renee Fleming and I think in order for me to actually tell, I'd have to have a better sense of pitch since it seems to be something that oscillates between two specific notes versus a naturally occurring consequence of a supported, sustained note. I still can't hear it. =P

That's basically it. Vibrato is something that happens as a consequence of doing a lot of other things right. A trill is like you're spinning two notes about each other, twirling them around. Trills also generally aren't as fast, as you'll hear. The normal rate of vibrato has actually slowed; Caruso's vibrato rate was around 7, and Pavarotti's is around 5.5, though the "normal range" is thought to be anywhere from 5.0 - 8.0. You'll hear a marked difference between trills and vibrato in any period, though. You might hear slower in some instances, but it seems to happen when something is being sung quite slowly.

This might be helpful. Listen to the end of Ingeborg Hallstein's rendition of the Bell Song. That's vibrato on the very last note, but she does a trill immediately before it. Joan Sutherland is also a good contrast. Maria sings a trill here; her vibrato here on similarly sustained notes is quite different.

Leontyne Price has a very strong vibrato, and I think this performance highlights it best. She doesn't use any trills, so if you hear the oscillation, it's vibrato. And this is Maria performing messa di voce (gradual crescendo and descrendo while maintaining a single pitch; in this case a single trill) on a trill. She uses vibrato immediately for the trill; I linked there for the contrast.
 

3phemeral

Member
I need an excuse to revive my topic, so I'll use this~



That's basically it. Vibrato is something that happens as a consequence of doing a lot of other things right. A trill is like you're spinning two notes about each other, twirling them around. Trills also generally aren't as fast, as you'll hear. The normal rate of vibrato has actually slowed; Caruso's vibrato rate was around 7, and Pavarotti's is around 5.5, though the "normal range" is thought to be anywhere from 5.0 - 8.0. You'll hear a marked difference between trills and vibrato in any period, though. You might hear slower in some instances, but it seems to happen when something is being sung quite slowly.

This might be helpful. Listen to the end of Ingeborg Hallstein's rendition of the Bell Song. That's vibrato on the very last note, but she does a trill immediately before it. Joan Sutherland is also a good contrast. Maria sings a trill here; her vibrato here on similarly sustained notes is quite different.

Leontyne Price has a very strong vibrato, and I think this performance highlights it best. She doesn't use any trills, so if you hear the oscillation, it's vibrato. And this is Maria performing messa di voce (gradual crescendo and descrendo while maintaining a single pitch; in this case a single trill) on a trill. She uses vibrato immediately for the trill; I linked there for the contrast.

Surprisingly, I think I can hear it. The question is whether I can hear it when I'm not being told where to look for it. :-/
 

Mumei

Member
Surprisingly, I think I can hear it. The question is whether I can hear it when I'm not being told where to look for it. :-/

They can be tricky, especially when they are very short or in a series. Maria does those trills repeatedly in the Dallas rehearsal performance of Coppia iniqua, including acapella and marking, which makes it stand out more. If you listen to the whole thing, she sings that sequence over and over.

You also almost never hear trills in pop music. BZBlaner's Whitney video mentions these two, but I think that the mezzotrillo is a real stretch. But he does that several times on various videos - his examples of staccati for Whitney aren't nearly as crisp and separated as they should be; his example of pianissimo for Beyonce isn't nearly as soft and light as it should be. But vibrato is, naturally, quite common. Streisand's If I Loved You has it ~everywhere~. The first phrase - "If I loved you" - every italicized word. In the next line, "Time and again, I would try to sing", the same thing. In almost every sustained word, she has vibrato and the exceptions are quite clearly intentional. On the climactic belt "tonight," she complete eschews vibrato.

Whitney's One Moment in Time is also a good example - pay attention to when she holds a note with a sustained vibratoless tone ("When I'm racing with destiny / And), when she does a little bit of quick melisma on a word (""I broke my heart"), and when she has vibrato ("Time / Shine"). It's quite the varied approach, and it's (I think) interesting to imagine what the song would sound like if she had vibrato in a place where she sang it straight tone, or vice-versa.

My personal reaction to a held straight tone is like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop, like there's this rising tension and the vibrato is the break in the tension. When Andy Williams sings, "I love you", the first half of "you" has a clear vibrato, but when the vibrato ends and he keeps holding it on a straight tone it feels like he's doing a high-wire act. If the "so" that came immediately after were also on a held straight tone, I'd feel completely different about the ending than I do about what was actually recorded.
 

3phemeral

Member
They can be tricky, especially when they are very short or in a series. Maria does those trills repeatedly in the Dallas rehearsal performance of Coppia iniqua, including acapella and marking, which makes it stand out more. If you listen to the whole thing, she sings that sequence over and over.

You also almost never hear trills in pop music. BZBlaner's Whitney video mentions these two, but I think that the mezzotrillo is a real stretch. But he does that several times on various videos - his examples of staccati for Whitney aren't nearly as crisp and separated as they should be; his example of pianissimo for Beyonce isn't nearly as soft and light as it should be. But vibrato is, naturally, quite common. Streisand's If I Loved You has it ~everywhere~. The first phrase - "If I loved you" - every italicized word. In the next line, "Time and again, I would try to sing", the same thing. In almost every sustained word, she has vibrato and the exceptions are quite clearly intentional. On the climactic belt "tonight," she complete eschews vibrato.

Whitney's One Moment in Time is also a good example - pay attention to when she holds a note with a sustained vibratoless tone ("When I'm racing with destiny / And), when she does a little bit of quick melisma on a word (""I broke my heart"), and when she has vibrato ("Time / Shine"). It's quite the varied approach, and it's (I think) interesting to imagine what the song would sound like if she had vibrato in a place where she sang it straight tone, or vice-versa.

My personal reaction to a held straight tone is like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop, like there's this rising tension and the vibrato is the break in the tension. When Andy Williams sings, "I love you", the first half of "you" has a clear vibrato, but when the vibrato ends and he keeps holding it on a straight tone it feels like he's doing a high-wire act. If the "so" that came immediately after were also on a held straight tone, I'd feel completely different about the ending than I do about what was actually recorded.

Would you consider this to be a poor-man's emulation of a trill?

What I find interesting is how one decides not to employ any vibrato when vibrato is naturally produced. I'm guessing it's more to do with control over breathing that produces a deliberate effect, whereas some singers just can't produce vibrato even if their life depended on it. Now that you've pointed some of those Whitney clips out, the only other times I can think of where I might have heard a trill are only from live performances of hers. I don't think I've ever heard mariah do a trill at all.
 

FelixOrion

Poet Centuriate
Probably bump worthy. Mumei, rip out my Larynx if otherwise ;p

So this popped up on my Facebook: A Search-able/Sort-able list of the World's Greatest Vocalists By (Studio Recording) Range

It's initially sorted by total size of range, but you can also sort by who has the highest/treble-most notes and who has the lowest/bass-most notes. It's also color coded by gender. It even tells you the songs where the extremes for each singer can be found in their discography.

concerthotels.com said:
To create this piece, we took the 100 Greatest Singers of All Time as compiled by Rolling Stone magazine in 2008. To this list, we added some of today's top singers including the nominees for top male and female artist at the Billboard Music Awards 2014. We cross-referenced the resulting list with vocal range data curated by The Range Place. We included all of the singers on the list for whom the data was readily available.

Largest Ranges (Top 5):
  1. Axl Rose (Guns N' Roses): F1 - B♭6
  2. Mariah Carey: F2 - G7
  3. Prince: E2 - B6
  4. Steven Tyler (Aerosmith): D2 - E6
  5. James Brown: E♭2 - E6

Largest Ranges (Top 5 Men):
  1. Axl Rose: F1 - B♭6
  2. Prince: E2 - B6
  3. Steven Tyler: D2 - E6
  4. James Brown: E♭2 - E6
  5. Marvin Gaye: D2 - E♭6

Largest Ranges (Top 5 Women):
  1. Mariah Carey: F2 - G7
  2. Christina Aguilera: C3 - C#7
  3. Tina Turner: B2 - G6
  4. Beyonce: A2 - E6
  5. Nina Simone: E2 -A5

Highest Highs (Top 5):
  1. Mariah Carey (G7 in "Emotions")
  2. Christina Aguilera (C#7 in "The Christmas Song")
  3. Prince (B6 in "God")
  4. Axl Rose (B♭6 in "Ain't It Fun")
  5. Tina Turner (G6 in "River Deep Mountain High")

Lowest Lows (Top
Bottom?
5):

  1. Axl Rose (F1 in "There Was A Time")
  2. Barry White (F#1 in "Low Rider")
  3. David Bowie (G1 in "I Took a Trip on a Gemini Spacecraft")
  4. Tom Waits (B♭1 in "Earth Died Screaming")
  5. Paul McCartney (B1 in "Nothing Too Much Just Out of Sight")

--

Some of Felix's Notable Exclusions from the List:
 

leroidys

Member
Probably bump worthy. Mumei, rip out my Larynx if otherwise ;p

So this popped up on my Facebook: A Search-able/Sort-able list of the World's Greatest Vocalists By (Studio Recording) Range

It's initially sorted by total size of range, but you can also sort by who has the highest/treble-most notes and who has the lowest/bass-most notes. It's also color coded by gender. It even tells you the songs where the extremes for each singer can be found in their discography.



Largest Ranges (Top 5):
  1. Axl Rose (Guns N' Roses): F1 - B♭6
  2. Mariah Carey: F2 - G7
  3. Prince: E2 - B6
  4. Steven Tyler (Aerosmith): D2 - E6
  5. James Brown: E♭2 - E6

Largest Ranges (Top 5 Men):
  1. Axl Rose: F1 - B♭6
  2. Prince: E2 - B6
  3. Steven Tyler: D2 - E6
  4. James Brown: E♭2 - E6
  5. Marvin Gaye: D2 - E♭6

Largest Ranges (Top 5 Women):
  1. Mariah Carey: F2 - G7
  2. Christina Aguilera: C3 - C#7
  3. Tina Turner: B2 - G6
  4. Beyonce: A2 - E6
  5. Nina Simone: E2 -A5

Highest Highs (Top 5):
  1. Mariah Carey (G7 in "Emotions")
  2. Christina Aguilera (C#7 in "The Christmas Song")
  3. Prince (B6 in "God")
  4. Axl Rose (B♭6 in "Ain't It Fun")
  5. Tina Turner (G6 in "River Deep Mountain High")

Lowest Lows (Top
Bottom?
5):

  1. Axl Rose (F1 in "There Was A Time")
  2. Barry White (F#1 in "Low Rider")
  3. David Bowie (G1 in "I Took a Trip on a Gemini Spacecraft")
  4. Tom Waits (B♭1 in "Earth Died Screaming")
  5. Paul McCartney (B1 in "Nothing Too Much Just Out of Sight")

--

Some of Felix's Notable Exclusions from the List:

I saw this earlier today, and can't figure out why there are no classical singers. Also, the list doesn't appear to be correct even. Just off the top of my head, Bowie sings a whole note higher in Life on Mars for example.
 

FelixOrion

Poet Centuriate
I saw this earlier today, and for the life of me can't figure out why the hell there are no classical singers. Also, the list doesn't appear to be correct even. Just off the top of my head, Bowie sings a whole note higher in Life on Mars for example.

The quote explains the lack of anything but classic rock and pop for the most part: Billboard.
 

FelixOrion

Poet Centuriate
Yeah I mean I know where it came from but... why?

Its probably a popularity thing, I'd guess. There aren't a lot of classical singers with a well-known discography or name recognition.

Plus, its not like classical is exactly Billboard or Rolling Stone's forte, but they're the only big cross-genre ones who really put large "100 Best ____" lists.
 

leroidys

Member
Its probably a popularity thing, I'd guess. There aren't a lot of classical singers with a well-known discography or name recognition.

Plus, its not like classical is exactly Billboard or Rolling Stone's forte, but they're the only big cross-genre ones who really put large "100 Best ____" lists.

Yeah I'm just being salty. That was just my initial reaction to it existing, not you posting it. Popular music (and music journalism) does itself such a disservice by de-facto banning any mention of hundreds of years of musical history.
 

Mumei

Member
I saw this earlier today, and can't figure out why there are no classical singers. Also, the list doesn't appear to be correct even. Just off the top of my head, Bowie sings a whole note higher in Life on Mars for example.

I wouldn't want classical singers on a list like this, just because it is an apples and oranges comparison. In popular music, your vocal range is essentially everything that comes out of your mouth. It doesn't need to be musical; it doesn't need to be controlled; it doesn't need to be connected; it doesn't need to be supported; it doesn't need to be properly produced. This is why you have men who fry their way to first octave notes and crack and scream their way to sixth and seventh octave notes, and women like Christina Aguilera who maybe have about one completely solid octave in their throat.

Whereas even mediocre opera singers sing with the sort of breath support, projection, control, and support that is far beyond the best pop singers - but it would look like classical singers are much more limited in their range than pop singers if you made that apples to oranges comparison.
 
Let's bump up this b*tch once more.

I've been taking singing lessons over the past three or four months now and I'm making huge progress. Apart from having much better breath support and some control over my larynx, I noticed I went up four semitones in range (in my chest voice that is). I love that I can see (or rather hear) my progress so clearly.

My latest challenge has been 'Something About The Way You Look Tonight' by Elton John, which has some tricky high notes. I am trying to keep that larynx low/neutral but it's very hard. I'm supporting the note as much as I can with my diaphragm and back muscles but somehow I still pull with my larynx somewhat. That open throat is also still a hard one.

Does anybody have some tips for me? I doesn't have to me specifically for this song but it's a nice case study.
 

lenovox1

Member
Does anybody have some tips for me? I doesn't have to me specifically for this song but it's a nice case study.

There's a sound in-between dough and duh that you can try to build yourself up on. You can do an octave and then "DOH, DOH, DOH, DOH, DOH" the final five notes. If you're doing it properly, your larynx will stay and lock down at the top. And you should sound like a mating seal. Not a pretty sound at all.
 

Xun

Member
Let's bump up this b*tch once more.

I've been taking singing lessons over the past three or four months now and I'm making huge progress. Apart from having much better breath support and some control over my larynx, I noticed I went up four semitones in range (in my chest voice that is). I love that I can see (or rather hear) my progress so clearly.

My latest challenge has been 'Something About The Way You Look Tonight' by Elton John, which has some tricky high notes. I am trying to keep that larynx low/neutral but it's very hard. I'm supporting the note as much as I can with my diaphragm and back muscles but somehow I still pull with my larynx somewhat. That open throat is also still a hard one.

Does anybody have some tips for me? I doesn't have to me specifically for this song but it's a nice case study.
I'd love to start singing lessons, but I'm pretty sure I've already got vocal nodules. :(
 

Ettie

Member
Welp, I broke something.

A little while back I was trying to get into "We All Die Young" from the Rock Star soundtrack while driving home from work, and hit a hard stop at flesh from bone. It didn't feel like a struggle or anything, just suddenly lost it and started coughing. Since then, when I sing with anything approaching that level of effort I get a "tickled" feeling in my throat and the urge to cough comes back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-WqWaZxXSo

The song is not something I could normally do easily or well, and is far from what I'd normally be singing. Just wanted to see if I could do it because I liked the sound.

It's been about three months since this happened, is it permanent?
 

3phemeral

Member
Welp, I broke something.

A little while back I was trying to get into "We All Die Young" from the Rock Star soundtrack while driving home from work, and hit a hard stop at flesh from bone. It didn't feel like a struggle or anything, just suddenly lost it and started coughing. Since then, when I sing with anything approaching that level of effort I get a "tickled" feeling in my throat and the urge to cough comes back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-WqWaZxXSo

The song is not something I could normally do easily or well, and is far from what I'd normally be singing. Just wanted to see if I could do it because I liked the sound.

It's been about three months since this happened, is it permanent?
If this happened only once, then it's likely it's not permanent. Takes years of abuse for that. You just be taking a while to recover and forcing yourself to try those notes might be delaying the healing process. It also depends if you're even singing it correctly, too, as there may have been a reason why you choked the first time.
 
Never realized that this thread existed.

I suck at singing but my wife is pretty good imho (has majored in classical music). I think she is classified as a "lyrico spinto" but thats pretty much all I know about this subject -.-,,

A few youtube samples
Ach ich Fühls
Mein Herr Marquis
Tu che di gel sei cinta
Signore A Scolta
Ombra Mai Fu

So I'm recording my vocals for my demo. I've found that after awhile, maybe 30 seconds or so, my vocal cords get strained and sore. Lose breath quickly also (I do sing from the diaphragm). I also used to be able to hit high notes, but now they just crackle, probably due to bad technique... Can vocal cords be "rebuilt" or something? It's been like this for a month. Sorry for the stupid question.


Dunno if this is a bit paranoid. But my wife had periods where she didnt even talk for two weeks or more when she was feeling that the vocal cords didnt work. Now she wouldnt even sing more then 2-3 hours per day (even if she wants to).
I wouldn't want classical singers on a list like this, just because it is an apples and oranges comparison. In popular music, your vocal range is essentially everything that comes out of your mouth. It doesn't need to be musical; it doesn't need to be controlled; it doesn't need to be connected; it doesn't need to be supported; it doesn't need to be properly produced. This is why you have men who fry their way to first octave notes and crack and scream their way to sixth and seventh octave notes, and women like Christina Aguilera who maybe have about one completely solid octave in their throat.

Whereas even mediocre opera singers sing with the sort of breath support, projection, control, and support that is far beyond the best pop singers - but it would look like classical singers are much more limited in their range than pop singers if you made that apples to oranges comparison.
true.. i understand that il popoli di tesaglia is pretty much as high as it goes?
 
Welp, I broke something.

A little while back I was trying to get into "We All Die Young" from the Rock Star soundtrack while driving home from work, and hit a hard stop at flesh from bone. It didn't feel like a struggle or anything, just suddenly lost it and started coughing. Since then, when I sing with anything approaching that level of effort I get a "tickled" feeling in my throat and the urge to cough comes back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-WqWaZxXSo

The song is not something I could normally do easily or well, and is far from what I'd normally be singing. Just wanted to see if I could do it because I liked the sound.

It's been about three months since this happened, is it permanent?

Your normal speaking voice is ok? Did you get raspy or anything? If everything else is normal, it's likely a mental thing where you are freaking yourself out and clamming up on the high note at exactly the moment you need to be loose. But any additional info you can offer helps. I've been there with the heavy metal screams, so I know where you're coming from.
 

Rest

All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
I've wanted to train my voice for a while, I've got a baritone voice like 70's soul singer, but I'm not really skilled with its use. How does one go about finding a good instructor? My thought was to go to the local music community, like high end music shops, and see what kind of network there is, but that left me with "well, go the the community college and see if you like the program." Pretty much a brush off. Lessons at shops for working musicians seemed grossly over priced, hundreds of dollars for about 2 hours of instruction per month (and no make up classes if you're sick!,) so that seems like a waste.

I shudder to think of the roulette wheel that the yellow pages would spin for me, so I'm stuck for now.
 
I've wanted to train my voice for a while, I've got a baritone voice like 70's soul singer, but I'm not really skilled with its use. How does one go about finding a good instructor? My thought was to go to the local music community, like high end music shops, and see what kind of network there is, but that left me with "well, go the the community college and see if you like the program." Pretty much a brush off. Lessons at shops for working musicians seemed grossly over priced, hundreds of dollars for about 2 hours of instruction per month (and no make up classes if you're sick!,) so that seems like a waste.

I shudder to think of the roulette wheel that the yellow pages would spin for me, so I'm stuck for now.

I take it you're not close to a major city? I'm lucky that I'm close to NYC so voice teachers are a dime a dozen around here. I performed in community theater for a number of years, so I was able to start finding people that way. I eventually stumbled on David Jones' website and was lucky enough to take a few lessons with him. I suppose my point is that if you love singing, be vigilant. Pick up knowledge wherever you can, but evaluate it critically. Sans networking, an online or Yellow Pages search is really your only option. You may already be aware, but it's worth mentioning the difference between a voice teacher and a vocal coach. Vocal coaches are useful for repertoire and stylistic choices, but many don't have any real qualifications. Voice teachers should have some type of degree in classical music, vocal pedagogy, or something similar. I'd recommend avoiding lessons over Skype. There are many vocal coaches doing that these days and from what I've witnessed, they tend to be more about stroking their own egos. Some even border on cult-leader status.

The biggest tip I can give is to listen to your own body. If someone is telling you to do something and it doesn't feel right, tell them. If they don't listen or just tell you the problem will fix itself with time, find another teacher. It can be a frustrating process, but a big part of singing is being self-reliant and becoming your own teacher. Good luck!
 

leroidys

Member
I wouldn't want classical singers on a list like this, just because it is an apples and oranges comparison. In popular music, your vocal range is essentially everything that comes out of your mouth. It doesn't need to be musical; it doesn't need to be controlled; it doesn't need to be connected; it doesn't need to be supported; it doesn't need to be properly produced. This is why you have men who fry their way to first octave notes and crack and scream their way to sixth and seventh octave notes, and women like Christina Aguilera who maybe have about one completely solid octave in their throat.

Whereas even mediocre opera singers sing with the sort of breath support, projection, control, and support that is far beyond the best pop singers - but it would look like classical singers are much more limited in their range than pop singers if you made that apples to oranges comparison.

I dunno, there are several guys who perform high Fs live (beating anything on this graph), and then singers like Ewa Podles who can sing Bb2 to D6. I don't think that the list would be unfair to classical singers.
 

Ettie

Member
If this happened only once, then it's likely it's not permanent. Takes years of abuse for that. You just be taking a while to recover and forcing yourself to try those notes might be delaying the healing process. It also depends if you're even singing it correctly, too, as there may have been a reason why you choked the first time.

I was definitely not singing it correctly :) I have no training or knowledge of music theory, and no real understanding of musical mechanics. I just have a moderate ability to sing and so tend to do it a lot. (Moderate meaning campfire quality.) Sounds like I need to stop breaking into song during commercials on the way to work for awhile.


Your normal speaking voice is ok? Did you get raspy or anything? If everything else is normal, it's likely a mental thing where you are freaking yourself out and clamming up on the high note at exactly the moment you need to be loose. But any additional info you can offer helps. I've been there with the heavy metal screams, so I know where you're coming from.


Normal speaking voice is ok, that day I was raspy for a solid thirty minutes, felt scratchy the next day. Back to normal by the third day, except for feeling like the top of my range was chopped off. Maybe range isn't the right word. I can sing the same notes as I ever could, but the force isn't there at the top anymore, and my throat feels tight after I try it. Like when you're fighting back tears, trying to curb an emotional outburst, etc.
 

lenovox1

Member
I'd love to start singing lessons, but I'm pretty sure I've already got vocal nodules. :(

Voice lessons can help them heal.

I shudder to think of the roulette wheel that the yellow pages would spin for me, so I'm stuck for now.

The voice instructors at your local university and community college will probably be the most technically trained and academically studied people in town. That accredited school will have done all the vetting for you, and it truly should be the first point your initial start point.

Now, beyond that, you don't have to spin on the roulette anymore! Google exists now!

When Googling any potential vocal coaches name, all or some of these details should emerge: the music school or music store they work for, the training they've had, the amount of road experience they may have, the people they've worked with, demos of the people they've worked with, and other details.

And, if it doesn't, then you simply ask them what their experience in your voice type is point blank on the phone. And you ask for references. And, if they can't give you references, then you can't work with them.

Does anybody have some tips for me? I doesn't have to me specifically for this song but it's a nice case study.

I looked the song up, and the exercise should especially help you with the "OU" sound you need to make in the chorus of the song.

I wanted to give you an aural example of the exercise as well, because I don't think my explanation was strong enough.

The Doh's. This is isn't an example of how to execute the exercise, but more of an example of how it should make you sound. I wanted you to do the exercise at the tail end of your practice, after completing all of your other warmups and/or exercises. And only ever go as high as is comfortable. As this is how you never, ever want to sound under any circumstance.

I sang 8 measures of "Never Gonna Give You Up"
I was in a show where I had to sing this nightly, and performed that and other exercises before the show.
to demonstrate the "right" sound and the "wrong" sound at the tippity top part. (Granted, I didn't warm up before any of that and my voice is quite tired, so maybe those are not the best, um, examples.)
 

Mumei

Member
i understand that il popoli di tesaglia is pretty much as high as it goes?

Il Popoli (my favorite!) is one of those sopranos written for the odd high soprano who can sing easily above E6, yeah, though there are other soprano arias that go as high or even a bit higher.

I dunno, there are several guys who perform high Fs live (beating anything on this graph), and then singers like Ewa Podles who can sing Bb2 to D6. I don't think that the list would be unfair to classical singers.

I think you're sort of proving the point I'm trying to make by bringing up the exceptions to the rule. That is to say, while there are indeed several guys who can sing high Fs live; that ability is practically de rigueur in rock music, and higher. While Ewa Podles is one of the only contraltos capable of singing projectable notes at Bb2, B2, C3, nearly every single female singer in popular music has notes that low.

And while a three fully supported three octave range in opera is a spectacular feat, it's one that many more singers pull off reasonably well in popular music.

I just think it is unfair because it is comparing two very different methods of vocal production, one which is much more stringent in its standards and necessarily limits the range of passable notes. I personally think that a two octave operatic range should be considered a much more impressive as a feat of vocalism than a two octave range in popular music.
 

FelixOrion

Poet Centuriate
So that infamous little list has stirred some people up, so some people have taken it upon themselves to update it using the same source for the ranges (but updated, so ranks have shifted), but expanding it beyond the Billboard and Rolling Stone lists, with decidedly more rock and metal vocalists.

http://www.vintagevinylnews.com/2014/05/digging-deeper-axl-rose-is-not-singer.html

(subject to change, they still have a long list of other artists to look at)

1. Mike Patton (of Faith No More and Mr. Bungle) (Eb1 to E7) - 6 octaves, 1/2 note

2. Corey Taylor (of Slipknot and Stone Sour) (F2 to C#8) - 5 octaves, 4-1/2 notes

3. Diamanda Galás (F2 to C#8) - 5 octaves, 4-1/2 notes

4. David Lee Roth (E1 to A6) - 5 octaves, 3 notes

5. Axl Rose (F1 to Bb6) - 5 octaves, 2-1/2 notes

6. Nina Hagen (G#1 to Bb6) - 5 octaves, 1 note

7. Ville Valo (of HIM) (C1 to C#6) - 5 octaves, 1/2 notes

8-Tie. Roger Waters (of Pink Floyd) (B1 to Bb6), Mariah Carey (G#2 to G7) - 4 octaves, 6-1/2 notes

9-Tie. Devin Townsend (of Strapping Young Lad and the Devin Townsend Project) (C2 to Bb6), Kyo (of Dir en grey) (F#1 to E6) - 4 octaves, 5-1/2 notes

10. Paul McCartney (A1 to F6) - 4 octaves, 5 notes
 
I looked the song up, and the exercise should especially help you with the "OU" sound you need to make in the chorus of the song.

I wanted to give you an aural example of the exercise as well, because I don't think my explanation was strong enough.

The Doh's. This is isn't an example of how to execute the exercise, but more of an example of how it should make you sound. I wanted you to do the exercise at the tail end of your practice, after completing all of your other warmups and/or exercises. And only ever go as high as is comfortable. As this is how you never, ever want to sound under any circumstance.

I sang 8 measures of "Never Gonna Give You Up"
I was in a show where I had to sing this nightly, and performed that and other exercises before the show.
to demonstrate the "right" sound and the "wrong" sound at the tippity top part. (Granted, I didn't warm up before any of that and my voice is quite tired, so maybe those are not the best, um, examples.)


That's amazing, thanks! Your high note in Never Gonna Give You Up sounds gorgeous there already!

In an hour or so I'm going to jump into the shower, do my vocal warm-ups and then try the Doh's. After that I'm going to try me hand at another run of Elton John.

I shall report back here.
 
I was definitely not singing it correctly :) I have no training or knowledge of music theory, and no real understanding of musical mechanics. I just have a moderate ability to sing and so tend to do it a lot. (Moderate meaning campfire quality.) Sounds like I need to stop breaking into song during commercials on the way to work for awhile.

Normal speaking voice is ok, that day I was raspy for a solid thirty minutes, felt scratchy the next day. Back to normal by the third day, except for feeling like the top of my range was chopped off. Maybe range isn't the right word. I can sing the same notes as I ever could, but the force isn't there at the top anymore, and my throat feels tight after I try it. Like when you're fighting back tears, trying to curb an emotional outburst, etc.

Hmm. Well first off, I don't think anyone can really diagnose your issue without seeing you in person and hearing your voice. So if you feel something is up, hit up an EMT and they'll put the scope down your throat. It's pretty cool, actually.

It's possible that you just had some temporary swelling from pushing too hard during those first days and now your inhibitions are preventing you from reaching those notes. Had you ever nailed that part down before? If not, it's probably a technique thing. The vocal folds, like any other muscle, should always be gently stretched by vocalizing (things like "EEEs" "ZZZZZs" humming, lip trills, etc), but we rarely worry about that when we're rocking out in the car. It pays to be careful, though. Nodules, which is what singers often hear about the most, do take time to develop, but there are other injuries, such as vocal hemorrhages and polyps, that can occur suddenly. Three months should be enough time for any minor swelling to heal unless you are continuously aggravating it, so if this is something that really concerns you, I'd get it checked out.
 

Rayis

Member
I'm trying to sing Emotions by Mariah and I can actually hit the G6's she hits there, the rest of the song sounds abysmal but I'm actually proud of that part, 'cept I ain't hitting in whistle, it sounds more like falsetto, idk, I doesn't hurt at all to hit and is very accessible so I'm assuming it's not bad for my voice.

I wanna post a sample whenever I sound a bit better at the song, the belts in this are hard, especially the ones where I have to do runs and all oh boy, that's why Mariah is the queen, she makes it sound so effortless.

lenovox, you have a hot singing voice, I wanna hear more
 
Let's bump up this b*tch once more.

I've been taking singing lessons over the past three or four months now and I'm making huge progress. Apart from having much better breath support and some control over my larynx, I noticed I went up four semitones in range (in my chest voice that is). I love that I can see (or rather hear) my progress so clearly.

My latest challenge has been 'Something About The Way You Look Tonight' by Elton John, which has some tricky high notes. I am trying to keep that larynx low/neutral but it's very hard. I'm supporting the note as much as I can with my diaphragm and back muscles but somehow I still pull with my larynx somewhat. That open throat is also still a hard one.

Does anybody have some tips for me? I doesn't have to me specifically for this song but it's a nice case study.

Firstly, thanks for getting me to listen to some Elton John again. It had been too long and the man just has a fantastic and iconic sound.

It's great that you're getting lessons and building your voice. That being said, there are some things from classical voice training that don't apply to pop and rock. The low larynx position is one of these, and too many pop/rock vocal coaches preach this message seemingly without understanding or appreciating the implications. I struggled for years trying to keep my larynx low without anyone telling me how or why. It finally took an opera teacher to point out that the larynx assumes different positions in different styles of music. In pop and rock, some raising of the larynx is necessary to get the desired sound, and unless my ear is mistaken, Elton uses a high larynx sound in many of his songs. This is fine as long as you are not locking it up there and blowing a ton of air pressure at the same time.

A larynx locked in the low position can also result in damage. This is often the result of the tongue root pushing it down, placing unwanted pressure directly on the vocal chords. One popular vocal coach even recommends doing an exercise called "bullfrogs," which does exactly this and is not only pointless but detrimental and dangerous. Basically, you want the larynx to assume a neutral position via default and to stay flexible in order for it to make the necessary adjustments to achieve the sound you desire. Hope this helps.
 
Firstly, thanks for getting me to listen to some Elton John again. It had been too long and the man just has a fantastic and iconic sound.

It's great that you're getting lessons and building your voice. That being said, there are some things from classical voice training that don't apply to pop and rock. The low larynx position is one of these, and too many pop/rock vocal coaches preach this message seemingly without understanding or appreciating the implications. I struggled for years trying to keep my larynx low without anyone telling me how or why. It finally took an opera teacher to point out that the larynx assumes different positions in different styles of music. In pop and rock, some raising of the larynx is necessary to get the desired sound, and unless my ear is mistaken, Elton uses a high larynx sound in many of his songs. This is fine as long as you are not locking it up there and blowing a ton of air pressure at the same time.

A larynx locked in the low position can also result in damage. This is often the result of the tongue root pushing it down, placing unwanted pressure directly on the vocal chords. One popular vocal coach even recommends doing an exercise called "bullfrogs," which does exactly this and is not only pointless but detrimental and dangerous. Basically, you want the larynx to assume a neutral position via default and to stay flexible in order for it to make the necessary adjustments to achieve the sound you desire. Hope this helps.

Yeah, this is correct. In the first couple of lessons I thought I understood that the larynx should always be low, which isn't true.

I try to lower my larynx a natural amount when taking a breath and not pressing it down with my tongue. If it raises, it raises. I try to keep a neutral larynx at most instances, but indeed, with some of Elton's belts it's hard not to raise it.
 

Mumei

Member
RE: Belting / Larynx

I quoted something earlier in the topic from Bel Canto: A History of Vocal Pedagogy that might be of interest:

Bel Canto said:
Belting takes place in both male and female singers when the chest voice is carried beyond the point where it would ordinarily switch registers, at about E4 (330 Hz). At this point the singer allows the larynx to rise, thereby raising F1 to follow H2. The vowels are not darkened as they would be in covered singing. Belting requires a large closed quotient and increased subglottal pressure. All this requires high effort and muscle rigidity which often results in a tone without vibrato, or one in which vibrato only begins toward the end of the duration of the note in what is sometimes called a 'vibrato crescendo.' Schutte and D.G. Miller offer this definition of belting: 'Belting is a manner of loud singing that is characterized by a consistent use of "chest" register (>50% closed phase of glottis) in a range in which larynx elevation is necessary to match the first formant with the second harmonic on open (high F1) vowels' (Schutte and D.G. Miller 1993, 142). In male voice, belting is distinguished from covering primarily by the high position of the larynx. If the singer were to belt a high note, and then lower the larynx and expand the pharynx, he would achieve a covered tone. In either covering or belting, the chest register is extended upwards beyond its normal limits. In the female voice, belting takes place if the chest voice is carried up into the range usually referred to as the middle register. Many belters would be surprised to know how close they come to an operatic technique. Like covered singing, belting is often considered hazardous, and for those who do not execute it skillfully it probably is. However, as with covered singing, there are famous belters who have enjoyed long careers without vocal injury. More research is needed to determine precisely what is hazardous and what is not. There are probably some important differences between 'good' and 'bad' belting. As well, there may be individual differences in singers regarding vocal hardiness. It would be useful if these factors could be identified and measured before making wholesale condemnations of vigorous singing techniques.

So yeah, clearly a raised larynx is going to happen when belting; the point is that you don't overdo it. And you can see here that as this soprano moves higher, her larynx does rise somewhat. I seem to recall reading in the same book that this is a thing that also happens in head voice but I might be misremembering that!
 
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