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Singing & Vocalism OT

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Ettie

Member
Is there a common music master-text for the absolute beginner? Not for vocals necessarily, but more about the foundations of music that pros seem to have? I'd like to understand what I'm doing better, maybe smooth out some of my pitch problems and be able to identify notes, but I'm a total noob.


If there were enough interested singers, I think it'd be awesome if S&V:OT had a weekly or monthly singing theme. Everyone who wanted to participate could upload a clip and the group could offer critiques and vote for a winner. Each winner sets the rules for the next round. Like the writing OT used to do, I think.
 

3phemeral

Member
RE: Belting / Larynx

I quoted something earlier in the topic from Bel Canto: A History of Vocal Pedagogy that might be of interest:



So yeah, clearly a raised larynx is going to happen when belting; the point is that you don't overdo it. And you can see here that as this soprano moves higher, her larynx does rise somewhat. I seem to recall reading in the same book that this is a thing that also happens in head voice but I might be misremembering that!

That is incredibly fascinating and disturbing all the same time.
 

Rayis

Member
Is there a common music master-text for the absolute beginner? Not for vocals necessarily, but more about the foundations of music that pros seem to have? I'd like to understand what I'm doing better, maybe smooth out some of my pitch problems and be able to identify notes, but I'm a total noob.


If there were enough interested singers, I think it'd be awesome if S&V:OT had a weekly or monthly singing theme. Everyone who wanted to participate could upload a clip and the group could offer critiques and vote for a winner. Each winner sets the rules for the next round. Like the writing OT used to do, I think.

I freakin' love this idea!, can we do it plz plz plz!???
 
If there were enough interested singers, I think it'd be awesome if S&V:OT had a weekly or monthly singing theme. Everyone who wanted to participate could upload a clip and the group could offer critiques and vote for a winner. Each winner sets the rules for the next round. Like the writing OT used to do, I think.
I love this idea. But I'm a professional; I mean I do this for a living. I feel it would be unfair to some degree to compare myself to a beginner or untrained singer. But It is still good to throw these things out there and get feedback.

I really wish I could contribute to this thread more. But I have a really hard time translating what I was taught and what I have gained in experience into words. I never studied any Vocal pedagogy, so while I can read what posters like Mumei and lenovox1 say and understand them (and agree with them), I couldn't put what I do into those same terms. The only real way I could contribute is by sharing my experiences. Funny; to think of it now, I really don't have any other outlet to talk about my gigs.

Like how in early May I had to cover for another fine baritone with my alma mater college choir's performance of the Duruflé Requiem (It's one of my favorite pieces of music. The Pie Jesu is to DIE for! ). The piece has two brief baritone solos, in the third (Domine Jesu Christe) and the eight (Libera Me) movements. I surprised the choir members, I think, when we had our dress rehearsal, as they hadn't really heard me sing in this classical style before (they were used to hearing me sing in a more pop/soul style). I need to hear the recording of the performance, so I can judge for myself. If anyone would like to hear it I can post a link in this thread once I get a copy.
 

3phemeral

Member
I love this idea. But I'm a professional; I mean I do this for a living. I feel it would be unfair to some degree to compare myself to a beginner or untrained singer. But It is still good to throw these things out there and get feedback.
I think if it's framed in terms of how a beginner can learn from a professional, provided the same songs were sung, any amateurs would likely be able to hear the difference and thus be able to learn a great deal from it. :)
 
If there were enough interested singers, I think it'd be awesome if S&V:OT had a weekly or monthly singing theme. Everyone who wanted to participate could upload a clip and the group could offer critiques and vote for a winner. Each winner sets the rules for the next round. Like the writing OT used to do, I think.

Yes, let's do this. We can all learn from each other, which would be great!
 

Rest

All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
I take it you're not close to a major city? I'm lucky that I'm close to NYC so voice teachers are a dime a dozen around here. I performed in community theater for a number of years, so I was able to start finding people that way. I eventually stumbled on David Jones' website and was lucky enough to take a few lessons with him. I suppose my point is that if you love singing, be vigilant. Pick up knowledge wherever you can, but evaluate it critically. Sans networking, an online or Yellow Pages search is really your only option. You may already be aware, but it's worth mentioning the difference between a voice teacher and a vocal coach. Vocal coaches are useful for repertoire and stylistic choices, but many don't have any real qualifications. Voice teachers should have some type of degree in classical music, vocal pedagogy, or something similar. I'd recommend avoiding lessons over Skype. There are many vocal coaches doing that these days and from what I've witnessed, they tend to be more about stroking their own egos. Some even border on cult-leader status.

The biggest tip I can give is to listen to your own body. If someone is telling you to do something and it doesn't feel right, tell them. If they don't listen or just tell you the problem will fix itself with time, find another teacher. It can be a frustrating process, but a big part of singing is being self-reliant and becoming your own teacher. Good luck!

No, I'm in a city. About 500,000 in the city proper and about 2,000,000 in the local area, which is why it feels so odd that the music community had nothing for me.

So what's a good place to look for theater ins? I have no idea at all about where one looks for things like that, would just going to a theater and looking for a bulletin board be a good way to start?

Thanks for the advice, Fourth Storm and lenovox1.
 

sdconvoy

Member
If there were enough interested singers, I think it'd be awesome if S&V:OT had a weekly or monthly singing theme. Everyone who wanted to participate could upload a clip and the group could offer critiques and vote for a winner. Each winner sets the rules for the next round. Like the writing OT used to do, I think.

*nods* My voice ain't much, but I'd be down for something like this.
 

Ettie

Member
I think if it's framed in terms of how a beginner can learn from a professional, provided the same songs were sung, any amateurs would likely be able to hear the difference and thus be able to learn a great deal from it. :)

Definitely agree there, and maybe "winner" isn't the right way to phrase it. Hell, everyone just putting up a file of their take on the same song and discussing the highs and lows (pun!) would be entertaining and helpful. Removing the competitive element will encourage us amateurs to participate, I'd imagine.
 

FelixOrion

Poet Centuriate
So I got cast as Larry in my old high school's alumni production of A Chorus Line! I basically never get parts in musicals cause I'm a mediocre singer and absolute god-foresaken dance wise. But...
I had to decline the role because I'm starting work as a graduate student next week and my hours are gonna cause too many conflicts ;_; I've never auditioned and then had to reject a part, musical or play or movie or whatever. Feels bad man.
 
I'm lucky the singing portion of my intro music theory class was not graded this past semester... I should probably keep trying to learn how to actually sing. I can hear how horribly incorrect my voice is, my brain just doesn't know how to get my throat to respond in a helpful manner yet.
 

Rayis

Member
Can we talk about favorite amateur singers?

My favorite singer is Beibi she's a filipino singer who mainly sings anime songs, she used to have a channel where she sang western songs but she took it down unfortunately, she sang an amazing rendition of Listen by Beyonce but is unfortunately not there anymore, I should have saved it, needless to say, I ADORE her voice, she has such a facility and clarity in her tone that is mostly found in professional singers, her belting is to die for and is very easily accessible and her timbre is so unique, I just could go on and on about her but you gotta listen to her, I emulate my singing after her because I love her voice so much.

Listen for yourself
Crossing Fields, OP for Sword Art Online, just listen to her amazingly strong belt at around :44,:45, that ain't in the original

Tower, this is a Vocaloid song, but again, you can just hear the amazing belting skills she has

Yume Sekai, ending for Sword Art Online, this is something more mellow but you can hear she also does well singing slower songs

I know of many other videos where she sings some amazingly solid low notes and even higher belts than those but unfortunately she's singing with other people that frankly don't even compare to her, but I can say she's currently my favorite singer. I hope you guys like her too and I encourage you to share other amateur singers you like.
 

royalan

Member
Is there a common music master-text for the absolute beginner? Not for vocals necessarily, but more about the foundations of music that pros seem to have? I'd like to understand what I'm doing better, maybe smooth out some of my pitch problems and be able to identify notes, but I'm a total noob.


If there were enough interested singers, I think it'd be awesome if S&V:OT had a weekly or monthly singing theme. Everyone who wanted to participate could upload a clip and the group could offer critiques and vote for a winner. Each winner sets the rules for the next round. Like the writing OT used to do, I think.

Seems like a few people want to do this. I think it's just going to take one brave soul to go first...


....>___>
 

Mumei

Member
*stares accusingly at Mumei*
:p

Hah!

I actually really like the idea of having some sort of singing competition thing (or not a competition exactly, but more of a "thing to participate in if you are so inclined"). Perhaps even having a separate weekly or monthly topic to go along with whatever the theme is so that it would get - alas - more traffic than this thread gets. I don't know that there's a large enough community to justify it, but I don't think it can hurt. If you guys want to organize it, I'm all for it.
 

FelixOrion

Poet Centuriate
Hah!

I actually really like the idea of having some sort of singing competition thing (or not a competition exactly, but more of a "thing to participate in if you are so inclined"). Perhaps even having a separate weekly or monthly topic to go along with whatever the theme is so that it would get - alas - more traffic than this thread gets. I don't know that there's a large enough community to justify it, but I don't think it can hurt. If you guys want to organize it, I'm all for it.

I'll participate...but you can't stop me from also throwing in some of my own harsh vocals! ;)
 

Mumei

Member
Well, that idea seems to have petered out.

In other news, I was looking for ideas on what to read in my Goodreads list when I came across this.

3810.jpg


Looks like a useful resource.
 

FelixOrion

Poet Centuriate

I know it's been a month since you posted this, but I was hoping to reply to it with another fav's list, but I'm lazy. Oh well. I hadn't seen it, but I've been mulling it over for awhile.

Firstly, it doesn't honestly surprise me that a classical-oriented coach like her likes four of the five and hates Ozzy. The four given to her (King Diamond, Dio, Dickinson, and Halford) have been routinely in the past hailed for their operatic styles and lauded for their technical skill. So, in one sense, it was interesting to see her perspective as a professional coach and have the more technical insight into their voices, but I went in expecting more...diversity in the voices than she was given and left unsatisfied overall. We all know those guys can sing well, that's really been no surprise for nearly three decades. Her dismantling of Ozzy was the only really entertaining bit outside of the technical points.

Secondly, like I said, I would've love to seen her reaction to more than just those five. And I was expecting more because you directed the link at me! :p Apparently from her site:
My studio includes professionals and amateurs who perform everything from opera to Persian classical music to death metal.
Where are my punk-ish vocalists? My folk-influenced folk? My death metal and black metal frontmen? That's what I wanted to see. Metal is huge and it's a disservice I feel to focus on such a narrow scope that was presented to her. It's boring to me to see a classical coach dissect metal singers who could slip into an opera with little to no difficulty. I wanted to see a classical coach dissect proper harsh vocalists, and for a coach whose studio supposedly helps vocalists like that, I was disappointed. Ozzy doesn't count.

Lastly, maybe it's just me but this little bit at the end about Rob Halford, rubbed me the wrong way, like a strange plug for her studio:
The high singing and screaming is still relatively free, but I feel that it would be even more impactful if he would master a vocal technique that would enable him to better integrate all of these different things he does so well, primarily with the goal of incorporating the depth and resonance of his natural low sound into the high stuff. He is the only one of the five who I truly wish would visit my studio some time.
idk, it seems odd that she'd want to help Rob rather than try to help Ozzy. By the way, that track was from 1976, Claudia, his voice and skill have changed in the nearly 40 years since...and Ozzy is still going.
 

Mumei

Member
Today, I nailed Donny Hathaway's version of Yesterday during singing lessons and it was a proud moment.

The song:
Donny Hathaway - Yesterday


Mumei, teach me something about that ridiculously beautiful vibrato that I can't replicate for my life.

Heh. I don't know what to say when you ask for something open-ended like that!

Vibrato is just something that happens when the voice is free and fully supported. Oh, and the note has to be held for at least long enough for the vibrato to start. You'll note that even when opera singers sing with a "pop" placement you only hear vibrato when the vowel is held. You'll probably notice this when you listen to the Donny Hathaway performance again. There's also something called "vibrato crescendo", where a belt begins with straight tone, and then vibrato appears towards the end.
 
Today, I nailed Donny Hathaway's version of Yesterday during singing lessons and it was a proud moment.

The song:
Donny Hathaway - Yesterday


Mumei, teach me something about that ridiculously beautiful vibrato that I can't replicate for my life.

Heh. I don't know what to say when you ask for something open-ended like that!

Vibrato is just something that happens when the voice is free and fully supported. Oh, and the note has to be held for at least long enough for the vibrato to start. You'll note that even when opera singers sing with a "pop" placement you only hear vibrato when the vowel is held. You'll probably notice this when you listen to the Donny Hathaway performance again. There's also something called "vibrato crescendo", where a belt begins with straight tone, and then vibrato appears towards the end.
Yes! All of this is very, very true.

I started taking vocal lessons my sophomore year of college. I had no vibrato to speak of. By the time I got to my senior year, it was in place, with no force. Hell, without me actually noticing the transition. It was just, there, you know? Some things just take time. You will feel it out, and then once you hear that vibrato, you know that you're on to something. Try to remember that sensation and replicate it. The biggest thing to remember is that if it hurts, STOP! You are doing something wrong. It has to feel free and, in a way, effortless (don't kid yourself, though, singing is WORK! but your voice shouldn't feel pain or any strain).

Oh, and good choice of a singer to emulate. Donny Hathaway is one of the most soulful singers that was ever in the game. I absolutely adore his stuff. It's a shame he died so young; if he was still alive today, he had the potential to be just as big as Stevie Wonder. Oh, and his daughter, Lalah Hathaway, is also spectacular (she sounds just like her daddy when she is in her lower register). She can sing jazz just as well as soul, and won the Grammy this year for best R&B performance for Snarky Puppy's "Something", where she sings TWO NOTES AT THE SAME TIME!!! I've only heard Tibetan throat singers do that beforehand!
 

3phemeral

Member
Yes! All of this is very, very true.

I started taking vocal lessons my sophomore year of college. I had no vibrato to speak of. By the time I got to my senior year, it was in place, with no force. Hell, without me actually noticing the transition. It was just, there, you know? Some things just take time. You will feel it out, and then once you hear that vibrato, you know that you're on to something. Try to remember that sensation and replicate it. The biggest thing to remember is that if it hurts, STOP! You are doing something wrong. It has to feel free and, in a way, effortless (don't kid yourself, though, singing is WORK! but your voice shouldn't feel pain or any strain).

Oh, and good choice of a singer to emulate. Donny Hathaway is one of the most soulful singers that was ever in the game. I absolutely adore his stuff. It's a shame he died so young; if he was still alive today, he had the potential to be just as big as Stevie Wonder. Oh, and his daughter, Lalah Hathaway, is also spectacular (she sounds just like her daddy when she is in her lower register). She can sing jazz just as well as soul, and won the Grammy this year for best R&B performance for Snarky Puppy's "Something", where she sings TWO NOTES AT THE SAME TIME!!! I've only heard Tibetan throat singers do that beforehand!

Heaven jesus and the lord above, that was amazing. I loved how everyone around her blew their minds when she did it.

[edit]

Also, I found this article which states she's actually singing three notes (!) completing a full chord.

[edit x2]

Here are other examples of it.

In the first video she even says: "You can only do it once! It's magic(?)! Y'all ain't gonna have me up here like Mariah Carey doing that thing on every single song, you hear me?"

[edit x3]

Apparently she discussed this in an article she wrote after she won a Grammy for that performance and she confirms that she was, in fact, singing two tones at once making it an interval and not a chord.

Here's a snippet of the article:

"On the YouTube video you can see me realizing, in the moment, how to control that process. It took six minutes to get to that point, but it was an incredible, expansive experience. I went to a different place vocally to be able to manipulate those chords. People are still trying to figure out how I'm doing it. And I don't even know. It's just something I've been doing since I was 12–13 years old."

"On that particular take, two distinct tones are coming out, and then we change keys and I sing two tones in a different keys. I never really used it before on a record, because I wasn't sure how to control it, and people would probably think it was fake anyway, so I only do it live, and that just happened to be the right venue. "​
 
Yes! All of this is very, very true.

I started taking vocal lessons my sophomore year of college. I had no vibrato to speak of. By the time I got to my senior year, it was in place, with no force. Hell, without me actually noticing the transition. It was just, there, you know? Some things just take time. You will feel it out, and then once you hear that vibrato, you know that you're on to something. Try to remember that sensation and replicate it. The biggest thing to remember is that if it hurts, STOP! You are doing something wrong. It has to feel free and, in a way, effortless (don't kid yourself, though, singing is WORK! but your voice shouldn't feel pain or any strain).

Oh, and good choice of a singer to emulate. Donny Hathaway is one of the most soulful singers that was ever in the game. I absolutely adore his stuff. It's a shame he died so young; if he was still alive today, he had the potential to be just as big as Stevie Wonder. Oh, and his daughter, Lalah Hathaway, is also spectacular (she sounds just like her daddy when she is in her lower register). She can sing jazz just as well as soul, and won the Grammy this year for best R&B performance for Snarky Puppy's "Something", where she sings TWO NOTES AT THE SAME TIME!!! I've only heard Tibetan throat singers do that beforehand!

Great stuff Mumei!!

But also this up here. I have been taking singing lessons for only half a year now, and vibrato is slowly sneaking in there. I know it will take time and that's fine. Donny's vibrato is something to work to (but probably never reach). I had a vocal teacher who told me I had to wiggle my diaphragm for vibrato. I left her the week after.

And that Lalah Hathaway is indeed amazing. I will see her perform tomorrow at the North Sea Jazz Festival in the Netherlands. Can't wait.
 

royalan

Member
...eh.

Can she do more with it than that "Wooo" thing? Because other than being technically interesting, it just sounds like one heady note on top of a weak, breathy and barely audible lower note.

Her scatting is amazing, though.
 

FelixOrion

Poet Centuriate
...eh.

Can she do more with it than that "Wooo" thing? Because other than being technically interesting, it just sounds like one heady note on top of a weak, breathy and barely audible lower note.

Her scatting is amazing, though.

My thoughts exactly. It's a neat trick, but that's about it.
 
Heaven jesus and the lord above, that was amazing. I loved how everyone around her blew their minds when she did it.

[edit]

Also, I found this article which states she's actually singing three notes (!) completing a full chord.

[edit x2]

Here are other examples of it.

In the first video she even says: "You can only do it once! It's magic(?)! Y'all ain't gonna have me up here like Mariah Carey doing that thing on every single song, you hear me?"
Yeah, that's one of my favorite parts of the video. Seeing the drummer stop playing and almost jump out of his seat once she did the last one. It's like she did it four times just to prove to everyone that it wasn't a fluke, it wasn't a hoax. She had control over it. Like "I can do this all day, people!" This is not something that even 1% of singers can do. Cause if they could we'd be hearing it all over the place already!

But try as I might, even with my perfect pitch (and I have listened to this track ever since the beginning of this year), I can't for the life of me hear a third note being sung. It might just be the overtones being "felt" (but not actually heard) by the listener, but I only hear two, distinct, recognizable, deliberate notes at a time. Third intervals (minor thirds to be more precise) is all I am hearing. I even played it out on the keyboard, and I'm not hearing a third note, or the fifth of the chord.

But I digress. It's still impressive.

I've seen her live (but she didn't do THAT), and she is in absolute control over her instrument. And her ear is impeccable; the scat she was doing was amazing. Her range was very wide; she seems like a mezzo at best, but she had some very high notes, as well as some deep ones. It was a Dianne Reeves concert (who is also a quality jazz singer), and Esperanza Spalding came out and did a few numbers as well. Beautiful concert.

EDIT: Oh, I see that you got confirmation that it was two notes. Now I don't feel like a madman for only hearing the two! I think someone assumed it was three, and then others online picked up on that and just ran with it. As these things tend to go.

...eh.

Can she do more with it than that "Wooo" thing? Because other than being technically interesting, it just sounds like one heady note on top of a weak, breathy and barely audible lower note.

Her scatting is amazing, though.

My thoughts exactly. It's a neat trick, but that's about it.
I'm always amazed when others aren't amazed by this!

What she is doing is singing the lower of the two notes in the interval (in this case, the four notes she's singing is Ab, Bb, then Eb and Db) and she is managing somehow to get the interval a minor third above each of those notes (so Cb, Db, then Gb and Fb). The lower of the two notes is the stronger one, so that's the one she is truly intending to sing. It's some form of overtone singing. That is about the only thing I can figure out. The amazing thing to me is just how accurate she was with it. The first two times I can understand people thinking it was a parlor trick or something. Then she does it again, AND AGAIN. And not on the same pitches. It's always within the constantly moving harmonic structure of the song. She never repeats herself, so it's apparent that she has much control over this ability. I'm not gonna expect her to sing an entire melody WITH LYRICS doing this, as she probably needs to be using a certain vowel to gain access.
 
Gasp :O! I had no idea this thread existed. Totally subbed <33!

Hello everyone!! <3 I'm a singer and have been since I was quite young o_o! I'm releasing my first EP in about a month or so and I've experienced vocal chord surgery before (yikes ;__;), so I'm hoping maybe I can help people in this thread just as much as I'll be learning from it!! <3
 
Gasp :O! I had no idea this thread existed. Totally subbed <33!

Hello everyone!! <3 I'm a singer and have been since I was quite young o_o! I'm releasing my first EP in about a month or so and I've experienced vocal chord surgery before (yikes ;__;), so I'm hoping maybe I can help people in this thread just as much as I'll be learning from it!! <3

Welcome and congrats on the EP! I'm sure some here (myself included) could benefit from hearing some of the details of your experience. What kind of vocal damage did you suffer from? What was the underlying cause? How did the surgery go?
 
Welcome and congrats on the EP! I'm sure some here (myself included) could benefit from hearing some of the details of your experience. What kind of vocal damage did you suffer from? What was the underlying cause? How did the surgery go?

Ahh thank you so much! I can hardly believe it's just about ready for release o__o!

ooh okie! Well when I was a child I suffered from this chronic cough for a few years that wouldn't go away for whatever reason. Years later (when I was about 13), I had my first gig and started to get into singing and working with a voice teacher. He thought it was really strange that I never had any access to my falsetto whatsoever, not to mention that my voice would crap out easily regardless of my technique o__o. So I made an appointment with the ENT he recommended and he came with me. After scoping me, he told me that I had a polyp (likely from that chronic cough as a kid), and that I needed to have surgery to get it removed. It was terrifying, if I'm being honest! Haha! So I had the surgery, couldn't speak for about a week, and spent a few months not singing. And my voice had completely changed. I had this falsetto all of a sudden, for one. Luckily for me, though, the surgery and recovery went pretty smoothly :)

I actually have videos on my YouTube channel of my vocal chords before and after surgery if anyone is interested in seeing! (Warning, it's a bit gross.. LOL!) <3

Edit: I'm sorry for the long-winded tale!! Haha!! :)
 
Ahh thank you so much! I can hardly believe it's just about ready for release o__o!

ooh okie! Well when I was a child I suffered from this chronic cough for a few years that wouldn't go away for whatever reason. Years later (when I was about 13), I had my first gig and started to get into singing and working with a voice teacher. He thought it was really strange that I never had any access to my falsetto whatsoever, not to mention that my voice would crap out easily regardless of my technique o__o. So I made an appointment with the ENT he recommended and he came with me. After scoping me, he told me that I had a polyp (likely from that chronic cough as a kid), and that I needed to have surgery to get it removed. It was terrifying, if I'm being honest! Haha! So I had the surgery, couldn't speak for about a week, and spent a few months not singing. And my voice had completely changed. I had this falsetto all of a sudden, for one. Luckily for me, though, the surgery and recovery went pretty smoothly :)

I actually have videos on my YouTube channel of my vocal chords before and after surgery if anyone is interested in seeing! (Warning, it's a bit gross.. LOL!) <3

Edit: I'm sorry for the long-winded tale!! Haha!! :)

Not long winded at all. It's an interesting case in that you had the polyp since you were a child. I've always read that polyps are likelier to occur from a sudden injury. I suppose a bad cough could do that. Did you remember your voice being breathy or raspy as a kid? Anyway, your tone sounds good now and the cords look great. Please link to the EP when it's ready!
 
Not long winded at all. It's an interesting case in that you had the polyp since you were a child. I've always read that polyps are likelier to occur from a sudden injury. I suppose a bad cough could do that. Did you remember your voice being breathy or raspy as a kid? Anyway, your tone sounds good now and the cords look great. Please link to the EP when it's ready!

Haha I'm glad I didn't bore you!! :D! Yeah it was definitely strange.. I just remember wondering all the time why I couldn't access my falsetto at all. I used to get really frustrated with myself LOL!

I don't personally remember because I think I was too young, but my mom tells me that her, my dad, and everyone else used to call me Rod when I was little because my talking voice sounded raspy like Rod Stewart's! LOLL o_o! So apparently I was a pretty raspy boy!

Aww thank you so much for the kind words :'). It's strange. I never thought I'd make it nearly as far in music as I have. I feel pretty grateful :3. And yes!! I will definitely link the EP when it's released!! <3

If there were enough interested singers, I think it'd be awesome if S&V:OT had a weekly or monthly singing theme. Everyone who wanted to participate could upload a clip and the group could offer critiques and vote for a winner. Each winner sets the rules for the next round. Like the writing OT used to do, I think.
I would also 50349856035860258062845% be down for this! o______o!!!
 

FelixOrion

Poet Centuriate
In honor of his 14th studio album just being released, I'd like to ask the thread: why does "Weird Al" Yankovic seem get left out of vocalist discussions? He's a pretty competent singer with a pretty respectable range and support, fits well in a multitude of genres, has great diction and emotion (albeit comedic), and still sounds good for a someone coming up on their 55th birthday and has been performing nearly four decades without any sort of loss in quality. I get that his parodies and comedy take precedent, but you rarely if ever see him on any "Best Singer" lists. Even though I'm a fan of his, I'd want to hear some other opinions on him.

"Eat It" ("Beat It" - Michael Jackson)
"Foil" ("Royals" - Lorde)
"The Saga Begins" ("American Pie" - Don McLean)
 

Mumei

Member
I'm always amazed when others aren't amazed by this!

What she is doing is singing the lower of the two notes in the interval (in this case, the four notes she's singing is Ab, Bb, then Eb and Db) and she is managing somehow to get the interval a minor third above each of those notes (so Cb, Db, then Gb and Fb). The lower of the two notes is the stronger one, so that's the one she is truly intending to sing. It's some form of overtone singing. That is about the only thing I can figure out. The amazing thing to me is just how accurate she was with it. The first two times I can understand people thinking it was a parlor trick or something. Then she does it again, AND AGAIN. And not on the same pitches. It's always within the constantly moving harmonic structure of the song. She never repeats herself, so it's apparent that she has much control over this ability. I'm not gonna expect her to sing an entire melody WITH LYRICS doing this, as she probably needs to be using a certain vowel to gain access.

Do you know what's happening when that happens? I'm guessing it is something similar to the Tuvan throat singing you mentioned (example), maybe, where both the vestibular (or false) and vocal folds are adducted and can vibrate simultaneously, so you get two sounds at once. I don't think hers sounds quite as solid as what they're doing, but I suppose you can chalk it up to experience.

In honor of his 14th studio album just being released, I'd like to ask the thread: why does "Weird Al" Yankovic seem get left out of vocalist discussions? He's a pretty competent singer with a pretty respectable range and support, fits well in a multitude of genres, has great diction and emotion (albeit comedic), and still sounds good for a someone coming up on their 55th birthday and has been performing nearly four decades without any sort of loss in quality. I get that his parodies and comedy take precedent, but you rarely if ever see him on any "Best Singer" lists. Even though I'm a fan of his, I'd want to hear some other opinions on him.

"Eat It" ("Beat It" - Michael Jackson)
"Foil" ("Royals" - Lorde)
"The Saga Begins" ("American Pie" - Don McLean)

Heh. Well, he isn't really good enough to be on a best singers list in my opinion! Though listening to his studio work, the only thing that really consistently bothers me is his nasality.
 

FelixOrion

Poet Centuriate
Heh. Well, he isn't really good enough to be on a best singers list in my opinion! Though listening to his studio work, the only thing that really consistently bothers me is his nasality.

I have to agree with the nasality for sure.

I'd probably agree he's not the most technical singer, but his skill is something I don't think I could scoff it off.

On the topic of nasality, I think his normal speaking voice is already kinda nasally anyways, but I think it kinda fits with what he does a parodist as its kinda goofy, in the same way that Dave Mustaine isn't an amazing singer but his nasally snarl of a singing voice fits well with Megadeth (but that's another post for another time).
 
I'd probably agree he's not the most technical singer, but his skill is something I don't think I could scoff it off.

On the topic of nasality, I think his normal speaking voice is already kinda nasally anyways, but I think it kinda fits with what he does a parodist as its kinda goofy, in the same way that Dave Mustaine isn't an amazing singer but his nasally snarl of a singing voice fits well with Megadeth (but that's another post for another time).

Not a bad point :3. I think it definitely does work for him, stylistically. I actually still need to listen to his newer ones that people keep talking about LOL!
 
Do you know what's happening when that happens? I'm guessing it is something similar to the Tuvan throat singing you mentioned (example), maybe, where both the vestibular (or false) and vocal folds are adducted and can vibrate simultaneously, so you get two sounds at once. I don't think hers sounds quite as solid as what they're doing, but I suppose you can chalk it up to experience.
Hell, your guess is as good as mine, Mumei! While I may be able to understand what is happening, I don't know the how or why. I've never sang with overtones like this. Nor do I know anyone who has. I've only ever gone to a concert with Tibetan monks who were throat singing, and that was well over ten years ago.
I'd probably agree he's not the most technical singer, but his skill is something I don't think I could scoff it off.

On the topic of nasality, I think his normal speaking voice is already kinda nasally anyways, but I think it kinda fits with what he does a parodist as its kinda goofy, in the same way that Dave Mustaine isn't an amazing singer but his nasally snarl of a singing voice fits well with Megadeth (but that's another post for another time).
You kinda answered your own question there at the top of this post.

(WARNING: LONG POST AHEAD!!!)

While these things are always subjective to a degree, in order to be considered a great vocalist, I feel you really should have these things down:

1. Has vocal beauty - The unique quality and timbre of your voice (once pitch and volume are accounted for). So harshness or breathiness or nasality or warmth or brightness or darkness. These are all aspects of how your voice sounds. As far as the "Beauty" of your voice and what qualities constitute a beautiful voice: You either got it, or you don't! You can't really change this that much, or at least that dramatically. Your natural singing voice (meaning how you sound when you aren't thinking or putting on an "effect" to purposely sound different) is what it is; the main thing you can do is refine it through training.

2. Uses good technique - Which includes things like breath control, vocal placement like vowel usage and chest/head voice registration, and vibrato control.

3. Is "musical" - Meaning they have a good sense of rhythm, intonation, and are knowledgeable on the form of the song in front of them. (I've played gigs with musicians I've never worked with before, and without rehearsal, sang many songs. At that point, you just have to be sure in yourself and flexible enough to listen and react accordingly. Sometimes the band won't come in on the chorus, but on the bridge. Well you have to be aware enough to realize that and jump in correctly. Believe me, the band is doing the same thing. There are no do-overs in live performance.) It also helps if you can read and write music, if you can play an instrument and if you can sing/play in multiple styles and genres. These all help out immensely for ones musicality (and quite frankly, if you can't at least read music, I wouldn't consider you a musician; but that's a topic for another time).

4. Is a good performer - In other words, being a great interpreter of the lyric; when it's a sad song, being able to convey the sadness with just your voice. (Diction also matters, and I struggled as to whether to put it with performance or technique. I guess it straddles both, really.)

This list is really of my own design. There will be some voice teachers and aficionados who will agree 100% with it, and some who will have issue with it. But I think in general it works. Not everyone will have all four things on this list. But if you do, I would consider you a great vocalist.

This sounds like a lot to balance and juggle, but it isn't, really. Like I said, number 1 is naturally whatever it is. Number 2 & 3 you can train for and number 4 mostly comes down to experience. And once you're on stage performing, you're not thinking about 1, 2 (unless something is wrong with your voice, like having a cold), or 3 (unless something goes wrong, like in my example up above). The only thing you want to think about is number 4. You want to think about the lyric, and how to deliver it to the audience in the most natural, effective way possible.

Now, as far as Weird Al is concerned, I'd say he has 3 and 4 down. But he doesn't have a particular nice sounding voice (it's very sharp and nasally), and his technique isn't spectacular. It works for what he does, very well in fact. So he is definitely a good singer. But I wouldn't go as far as saying he was a great one.
 
SonofdonCD, please analyze Park Bom based on that video using that criteria!
Okay, let me see here...

1. Her voice is pleasant enough. Not too sharp and piercing, not too dark and covered. Warm, mostly, which I like (but I think most people have relatively warm sounding voices). A little breathy sometimes, but it could be due to number 2.

2. This is where she has the most problems. Her breathing isn't good. And it effects everything else that she is doing. It effects her pitch, which suffers at times. It effects her vibrato, which can get erratic and therefore effect her pitch. And like that video you linked says, her legato is very, very choppy because of it. We singers LIVE by singing legato. Sure, there are times when it's not called for, but it's far and few by comparison. It's pretty much assumed that you sing legato unless you are told otherwise.

Her breathing even effects her rhythm, as she is behind the beat occasionally. Now, that isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I don't feel like she meant to be behind the beat whenever it happened. I think she takes some sneaky, quick breaths whenever she needs to, and when you do this without taking a little time off of the preceding note beforehand, you end up coming in late on the next one. I think that's what's happening here.

This problem also effects her higher notes. Her belting feels strained to me, in particular. It became real throaty, which is a big no-no. She is not supporting her breath enough.

3. She has an okay sense of musicality; it's not great, but mostly passible. But it's hard to judge without hearing a lot more of her. These short little clips doesn't give me a good sense of this.

4. Same here. Plus, I don't know if English is native to her or is she is just singing it phonetically (basically just imitating sounds). When I'm singing in a different language, I'm doing it phonetically. But since I don't know Korean, I can't judge the delivery too well.

But this is the problem with analyzing someone based on 5-10 minutes of YouTube clips. It's hard to do a real assessment on her with so little knowledge of her. I'm not into K-Pop, so I have no real qualifications to judge them without doing some research.
 
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