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Smash Wii U & 3DS Downloadable Characters Discussion and Information on Smash Ballot
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
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balladofwindfishes
Member
I actually don't think STEAM characters can be in Smash, due to Sakurai not wanting characters that originated from something other than a video game.
But they're a weird case. And also Assist Trophy fodder, especially since their peers in sales and importance are Assist Trophies. Or a song rip on the next FE Stage.
But they're a weird case. And also Assist Trophy fodder, especially since their peers in sales and importance are Assist Trophies. Or a song rip on the next FE Stage.
I'm still pretty sure that the last slot will go to a newcomer. We currently have...
- 2 Melee: Mewtwo & Roy
- Most Likely 2 Brawl: Lucas & Wolf
- 1 Newcomer: Ryu
Meh, Sakurai has gone back on so many things (Mii/Villager not a good fit during brawl era, mewtwo only dlc, whatever the most recent smash is being his last smash), I think it could be an exception.
balladofwindfishes
Member
I really doubt Inkling gets in as DLC. Like, it's not even in my mind at all as a potential addition.
Unless Splatoon is a massive financial success (which it's leaning towards not being) there really isn't a point. Characters are difficult to make and the commitment to make a character that might not be all that popular versus the piles of other characters people actually want and are familiar with really work against Inkling.
Also the only time a character was used as promotion for a new game was a clone, and one that seemed rushed given his bizarre hitboxes and somewhat lacking balance. Not really as complex of a character as Inkling would demand them to make considering how complex the paint system is and how it's integral to the character that it be implemented into Inkling's move set.
Inkling would make poor DLC, but are perfect reps for Smash 5. Then they'd sit like Ness and Shulk do, as characters from medium sized games released a few years before Smash. Characters that really need a full roster to carry them.
STEAM will be entirely forgotten by the time Smash 5 comes out.
It'll be lucky to even get a trophy or music rip, and it would be generous to think it'd get an assist trophy. A character is basically out of the question, the game bombed and isn't even reviewed all that well. There isn't really any character in Smash from a series like STEAM.
Unless Splatoon is a massive financial success (which it's leaning towards not being) there really isn't a point. Characters are difficult to make and the commitment to make a character that might not be all that popular versus the piles of other characters people actually want and are familiar with really work against Inkling.
Also the only time a character was used as promotion for a new game was a clone, and one that seemed rushed given his bizarre hitboxes and somewhat lacking balance. Not really as complex of a character as Inkling would demand them to make considering how complex the paint system is and how it's integral to the character that it be implemented into Inkling's move set.
Inkling would make poor DLC, but are perfect reps for Smash 5. Then they'd sit like Ness and Shulk do, as characters from medium sized games released a few years before Smash. Characters that really need a full roster to carry them.
STEAM will be entirely forgotten by the time Smash 5 comes out.
It'll be lucky to even get a trophy or music rip, and it would be generous to think it'd get an assist trophy. A character is basically out of the question, the game bombed and isn't even reviewed all that well. There isn't really any character in Smash from a series like STEAM.
SuperLeviathan
Member
I agree that the "low priority" thing probably superseded the "technical limitation" thing. Lucas and Wolf had no issues like that and were cut too. Time was also likely an issue,
8-Player Smash wasn't a thing until after the Climbers were cut (or, that's what I've read). We don't know how the Wii U would handle 16 Ice Climbers simultaneously, but it's not unreasonable to surmise that there would be issues there.
Nintendo's positioning Splatoon to eventually become one of the big dogs (like the Mario Kart of shooters), so it'll at the very least be Pikmin-tier. In short, it won't bomb, Nintendo won't let it.
Though if you ask me, I can't see the likes of King K. Rool or Wonder Red getting in without the ballot. At least the Inklings & the Chorus Kids are in new games that are coming soon.
dangeraaron10
Unconfirmed Member
Considering that some stages had to be editted heavily to work for 8 player smash (dynamics, hazards, bosses etc. were removed and the stages made bigger) I think something like introducing 8 Nanas might bog down the game ever so slightly to not be the quality Sakurai wants in the game.
It would be nice to have the Ice Climbers back, being the only cut veteran that went on for two games (prior to Smash 4), but I think 8 Player Smash was introduced after they were removed. Not even going to talk about the 3DS here, we all know about that, even if it was heavily optimized at this point. I'd like them, I'm just not expecting them.
At this point I'm expecting Wolf, Roy, Ryu, and one more Newcomer, potentially the Ballot Winner be it King K. Rool, Isaac, Krystal, Paper Mario or anyone else.
Or miracles can happen and it would be a newcomer not from the Ballot and we get a whole new wave of 4 Ballot Winners to round off the roster. I'm going to stay realistic for now though. I'd personally rather there be more Ballot Winners as opposed to just one with Ryu and Roy just thrown in there randomly. I don't think Ryu was even that highly requested at all, never even seen him on the exit polls. Then there's Roy, aside from the fans he does have, you'll just have endless wails of "Another FE anime sword fighter Marth clone" in the vain of the Lucina hate. But that's just me.
So yeah:
-Mewtwo
-Lucas
-Wolf to coincide with Star Fox U announcement
-Roy
-Ryu (E3 reveal for sure if he happens. If he's not at E3 I don't think he's in at all)
-Newcomer, likely the sole Ballot winner. If not, a new wave of Ballot Winners will likely come.
FTFY
Had to account for the potential unrealistic requests
like Banjo
S.T.E.A.M. is comparable to something like Drill Dozer; they're both middling, experimental handheld efforts from Nintendo's closest development partners, and neither game had much of an impact. S.T.E.A.M. would be lucky to get an Assist Trophy in the next Smash Bros.
Regardless of how well Splatoon fares at retail, it's an inherently big deal for being a new IP from EAD. I can't see Nintendo completely abandoning it. It's already got an amiibo series, a 3DS faceplate, a Mii Plaza hat, and Mii costumes in Smash Bros. I'm really picky when it comes to representing new series in Smash Bros., but I truly feel like Splatoon has already earned its keep. I don't think it would be premature to add Inkling as a DLC character.
Regardless of how well Splatoon fares at retail, it's an inherently big deal for being a new IP from EAD. I can't see Nintendo completely abandoning it. It's already got an amiibo series, a 3DS faceplate, a Mii Plaza hat, and Mii costumes in Smash Bros. I'm really picky when it comes to representing new series in Smash Bros., but I truly feel like Splatoon has already earned its keep. I don't think it would be premature to add Inkling as a DLC character.
dangeraaron10
Unconfirmed Member
Ah, true. By "Ballot Winner" I mean the character they hand pick from the ballot, not necessarily the one who got the most votes. In all likelyhood it will be a highly requested Nintendo character.
This, though I was thinking more of the most requested Nintendo character than anything else.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Most of the 8-player conversions don't necessarily seem technical in changes, but more logistics and visual clutter.
Smashville for example. Those villagers are DS models with no AI at all and just randomly emote. Not exactly major AI, at least no more so than the minecarts on Great Cave. But those villagers with 8 players on there would look terrible and cluttered and a mess.
Norfair wouldn't be fair (harhar) because not all 8 people could fit in the dome, so pretty much it would turn into a bloodbath every couple minutes when the wave hits. Which sounds fun in your mind but then remember the stage shows up in Classic and All Star. Also closing off parts of the stage in lava leaving two teeny platforms would be too small for 8 characters to even physically stand properly on.
But there are some that seem technical in nature. Like removing bosses and Palutena's Temple bridge not breaking. Although I have no idea how that's different than Skyworld which works fine, but whatever.
Smashville for example. Those villagers are DS models with no AI at all and just randomly emote. Not exactly major AI, at least no more so than the minecarts on Great Cave. But those villagers with 8 players on there would look terrible and cluttered and a mess.
Norfair wouldn't be fair (harhar) because not all 8 people could fit in the dome, so pretty much it would turn into a bloodbath every couple minutes when the wave hits. Which sounds fun in your mind but then remember the stage shows up in Classic and All Star. Also closing off parts of the stage in lava leaving two teeny platforms would be too small for 8 characters to even physically stand properly on.
But there are some that seem technical in nature. Like removing bosses and Palutena's Temple bridge not breaking. Although I have no idea how that's different than Skyworld which works fine, but whatever.
I don't see how that could be possible. 8 player smash is the core of Classic mode and there are two entire stages built specifically for 8 players. It had also been planned since Melee.
They're running out of characters and franchises, so they'll have to either
- Go to 3rd string main franchise characters (Impa, Birdo)
- Mine obscure old-ass dead franchises (mysterious castle, mach rider)
- Use characters from lesser-known, recent franchises (Splatoon)
The biggest knock against Steam is that Sakurai has not included an Advance Wars character, which deserves one before Steam.
dangeraaron10
Unconfirmed Member
I really can't answer that, we won't really know until we end up with an article stating why the Ice Climbers were axed. We know it's the 3DS, much more so than 8 Player Smash, but I'd love to know how far they got in development and at what point in development they got cut due to technical limitations.
Spring-Loaded
Member
Ridley can be playable.
I think it's pretty obvious that 8-player Smash faces significant technical limitations. To my understanding, it even uses different character models with reduced bones. The specific example I've seen flying around is Wii Fit Trainer. When she does the thumbs up win pose in 8-player Smash, the angle of her thumb is different because of the simplified model.
That was random. Though I'm pretty sure it's not gonna happen with Sakurai in charge. Ridley is meant to be huge, & as such should remain a boss.
dangeraaron10
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, I heard about that just recently and seen Wii Fit Trainer used as an example.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Yes, a few changes are probably technical, but it's not the end all reason they might have to make changes to stages. There's also visual clutter to think about. There would be no reason that the villagers in Smashville would need to be removed, other than visual clutter. They worked in Brawl. They would have even worked fine on the 3DS. I don't even think Melee would have broken a sweat with Smashville. The animals on Windy Valley as well. They're tiny models with a simple looped animation. The flowers that spin right next to them probably take as much as they do.
Think about how Onett supports the car no problem, and yet Smashville can't have 3D models from a DS game that loop simple animations.
And yes, characters use simpler LODs in 8 player Smash. Ice Climbers being more simple characters could probably use more aggressive LODs in 8 Player, although it's more of an AI problem than a rendering issue.
I think you're making a lot of strange assumptions here in order to fit things into your conclusion. The villagers in Smashville are multiple models that are on stage that still have to be rendered and animated. The cars in Onett are likely to have simpler animations and there aren't a lot of them present at once. Isn't it entirely possible that the cars are less intensive? I don't think the cars' AI is particularly extensive; they just go across the screen every so often.
Not saying Ice Climbers can't happen, but I think the better argument was made earlier. They were low priority, and maybe they could have worked out if Sakurai's team hadn't taken them out so early.
He can once sakurai leaves... (smash 5 plz)
balladofwindfishes
Member
the design issues with Ridley don't magically go away if Sakurai retires.
SuperLeviathan
Member
That's what I'm getting at. Concessions had to be made for 8-Player Smash (the stages, Wii Fit Trainer), and there's really no taking it out of the next installment.
Even if Sakurai waits until Smash 6 to reintroduce Ice Climbers, there's still the thorny issue of making 16 characters work in that mode (as stated, it wasn't designed with the Climbers in mind). Chances are, the same compromises needed for them would help make them work for the 3DS.
Even if Sakurai waits until Smash 6 to reintroduce Ice Climbers, there's still the thorny issue of making 16 characters work in that mode (as stated, it wasn't designed with the Climbers in mind). Chances are, the same compromises needed for them would help make them work for the 3DS.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Artsy Omni's Smashified series did Travis from MOTHER 4:
I guess they could do Chrono Cross characters next if they keep up with this fangame theme.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
What design issues? If it's the wings then fold the damn wings.
Plus making a Ridley design just for Smash wouldn't be something I would be against.
Not gonna lie, I never even considered he'd do Travis. It's nice, though; whereas there's a good chance that K. Rool will get in eventually, and a slightly-more-than-a-snowball's chance for Rayman, Klonoa, and Shovel Knight (And a > 0.01% chance for Banjo, as counterproductive as it may be to add him), a fan character like Travis'll never make it into Smash, despite him being popular with fans of the Mother series and him arguably fitting in.
He mentioned the arms in regards to scaling, so maybe he means that? I hate the Other M design, but it doesn't have that problem, even without scaling, though. Plus, some people agree with Sakurai that it's not Ridley if he doesn't take up a significant portion of the screen.
Also, I wholeheartedly agree with a Smash design for Ridley, if it's what needs to be done.
SenorArdilla
Member
"RIDLEY IS TOO BIG" is basically an in-joke at this point.
KLatin Scelus
Member
With Jiggs I just set it to Easy mode and spammed her smash attacks. Did it on my first try, although I do think I got a bit lucky with the AI's...stupidity.
Don't forget Hudson had their own console (TurboGrafx) which just happens to have games on the eShop. So Bomberman could be a rival console rep like Sonic.
Its more of a problem with sakurai more than anything... thinking that there is an actual is issue in designing rids as a fighter for smash is quite silly.... If anyone thinks that ridley cant be a well done character I just cant take you seriously...
stan423321
Member
In Japan TurboGrafx was obviously associated with Bonk, it's even a pun over there (PC Engine - PC Genjin). Bomberman as TurboGrafx representative makes zero sense unless you are already pushing for Bomberman.
I guess I mean as a Hudson rep in general. They had a rival console to the NES, they created the Mario Party series, they made over 30 Nintendo exclusive Bomberman games alone (including Wario Blast ft Bomberman). I think they definitely deserve a newcomer, and Bomberman's just more iconic and "Nintendo" than Bonk, although Bonk was awesome too!
balladofwindfishes
Member
Sakurai is the man that made an abstract concept of the Game and Watch and made it a character (and one of the most faithful to his series in Smash). He took an NES game nobody had thought about for 2 decades and turned it into one of the most memorable and unique fighters in Smash. And most famously, he took a pilot of a racecar that had never made any notable appearance outside of his car and made him, basically, into the mascot of the series. He's made design changes to characters that were so influential, they were adapted into the main series of that character (Bowser, Yoshi, Kirby, Dedede, Captain Falcon, Pit).
He's done the impossible with characters so many times and worked around limitations and made unique fighters out of nothing that when he says that Ridley would be awkward to make and wouldn't work right, I'm inclined to trust his judgment.
If it were that easy, Ridley would be in Smash. You don't think they put effort to make a hugely popular character from a flagship series?
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Ridley will never be in Smash. Even with Sakurai gone, you forget Iwata is the man with the cash. He'll take Sakurai's word on Ridley being too big as gospel and will inform whatever new team takes over that there better be no time wasted pissing money up the wall by trying to make Ridley work. Just import Pyrosphere as a retro stage and be done with it.
Neoriceisgood
Member
oh you.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Coincidentally, there's a new video showing a newer version of the Ridley Brawl Mod
Still as janky and broken looking as ever. Although I like his side throw having him drag enemies on the ground, so that's a good idea.
He looks so compacted and uncomfortable, like he's holding himself back. DK's weight, Meta Knight's recovery. What could possibly go wrong?
Still as janky and broken looking as ever. Although I like his side throw having him drag enemies on the ground, so that's a good idea.
He looks so compacted and uncomfortable, like he's holding himself back. DK's weight, Meta Knight's recovery. What could possibly go wrong?
Smash Bros. can't fully explore the torment faced by Cow Yoshi - as the one mammal in a species of oviparous reptiles, it is ostracised and reviled. A mutant, seemingly shunned by the entire world. Cow Yoshi's rebellion against the curse of its genes, and the subsequent fall into violent madness that came from its originally noble intentions; is a narrative of epic scope that deserves exhaustive exploration.
A mildly popular boss from a C-tier series, at best. Ridley's Smash representation has been impressively consistent when you consider its actual status - like Whispy Woods, it's been in every game bar the 3DS variant of 4. If Metroid fans weren't so selfish and single-minded, they'd realise that far from being the obstacle enforcing Ridley's arbitrary exclusion from the series, Sakurai may be the only person keeping it in a role that extends beyond that of a trophy.
Hot Coldman
Banned
I'm imagining the trailer for Smash 5/6/whatever. It has characters being summoned from each of the Nintendo consoles/handhelds over the years:
- Mario from a Donkey Kong cabinet
- Link from a NES
- Kirby from a Game Boy
- Fox from a SNES
- Pikachu from a Game Boy Colour
- Villager from a N64
- NEWCOMER Sami from a Game Boy Advance
- Olimar from a Gamecube
- NEWCOMER Chorus Kids from a DS
- Shulk from a Wii
- NEWCOMER Mallo from a 3DS
- NEWCOMER Inkling from a Wii U
And then there's gameplay footage, and then they throw down with Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man and NEWCOMER Crono.
FTFY, but I'm not sure about Chrono. I'd say Simon Belmont would be better, but Konami.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Ridley has a alternate grey skinned stock icon. Implying Meta Ridley. Game code.
Also has the most effort put into him out of the 3 stage hazard bosses.
Also Ridley has been in every Smash game in some form although poorly depicted in Brawl and Smash 4 because Ridley apparently fights like Dyna Blade.
It's obvious now - Ridley only attacked Samus' colony and joined the Space Pirates to feed his children. Clearly, this was the true subtext behind Other M; which only Sakurai was astute enough to divine.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Yes? You just proved what I said? They put effort into making him playable, it didn't work out right, and they repurposed him to be a boss...
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Should have said he was a boss instead of one year of tension.
Seriously this! Man he deconfirmed waluigi immediately but didn't even mention Ridley's name for months and months because...? Like, why start hype for a boss that everyone wants as a character? And only show their shadow during a "boss section" like, idk.
If sakurai cut off Ridley's tail and made him bowser/charizard sized everyone would have been excited! He was too stuck on wanting him to be EXACTLY like Ridley: huge, a boss, straight out of metroid.
But then why does ganondorf jog? Why is captain falcon not in his car and on fire? Why aren't olimar, Dedede, Kirby, metaknight, and pikachu to scale?
If Ridley was going to be made there would have to be some (worthwhile) sacrifices and sakurai couldn't figure out how go not make them. so he Ridley into just a boss because the team couldn't figure him out.
Smash has "smash versions" of every single character. they're all *heavily inspired* by their series. Idk.
SenorArdilla
Member
Sakurai does want he wants.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
On the same token it took a week for Metal Face to be confirmed as a hazard. So why a year for Ridley?
Also the Ridley trophy description pretty much says hey look I am a stage hazard.
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