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[balladofwindfishes]

More like, "I like birds a lot and see no realistic way talons that would support Falco's body weight would fit in those boots of the wind fishes."

 

[Red Arremer]

More like, "I like birds a lot and see no realistic way talons that would support Falco's body weight would fit in those boots of the wind fishes."

Looks like my joke didn't work.

 

[Boss Doggie]

there were plenty of updates a week or so after Iwata's passing, so maybe there was some Direct or hype planned but got canceled due to unfortunate events

More like, "I like birds a lot and see no realistic way talons that would support Falco's body weight would fit in those boots of the wind fishes."

but "muh cartoon design!"

 

[jph139]

Maybe they've all canonically been ugly, animate puppets this whole time.

 

[Geminosity]

I like birds a lot

That almost seems... contradictory

 

[Red Arremer]

That almost seems... contradictory

Not really. Those worms are suicidal, and use weapons of mass destruction against their own kind (and in some cases, themselves). There actually are weapons that use birds, such as the homing pigeon.

 

[Green Mamba]

Falco is a bird that stands 100% upright, has hands made of wings, no real chest musculature to support flight, the intelligence of a human, and is able to speak like a human despite not having lips but it's the feet that bother you? He's a cartoon character. His anatomy is not supposed to make sense.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Falco is a bird that stands 100% upright, has hands made of wings, no real chest musculature to support flight, the intelligence of a human, and is able to speak like a human despite not having lips but it's the feet that bother you? He's a cartoon character. His anatomy is not supposed to make sense.

Eh, that's a lazy defense for a terrible design. Look at Popeye, he has exaggerations but at the same time his design doesn't feel wonky because of his gimmick.

Hell look at Ratchet or Sly.

 

[Green Mamba]

Eh, that's a lazy defense for a terrible design. Look at Popeye, he has exaggerations but at the same time his design doesn't feel wonky because of his gimmick.

Hell look at Ratchet or Sly.

I would understand you if Falco's feet were at all important to his character design in Star Fox, but they aren't, and bringing up anatomy as a reason why they are bad is just silly, especially for a character that has never been seen barefoot.
Edit: Personally, save soon minor niggling issues on texture, I think the designs in Zero are the best the team has ever had.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I would understand you if Falco's feet were at all important to his character design in Star Fox, but they aren't, and bringing up anatomy as a reason why they are bad is just silly, especially for a character that has never been seen barefoot.

well we are assessing overall character design, cartoonish doesn't relieve the design from being seen as bad especially when we are going for bipedalism

again, look at Ratchet, he has fine anatomy and proportions despite being cartoonish so it doesn't look distracting

it's as bad as people yelling about female birds and reptiles having chest

 

[Green Mamba]

well we are assessing overall character design, cartoonish doesn't relieve the design from being seen as bad especially when we are going for bipedalism

again, look at Ratchet, he has fine anatomy and proportions despite being cartoonish so it doesn't look distracting

it's as bad as people yelling about female birds and reptiles having chest

I really don't know what you're getting at, and you seem to be arguing from the position that it's badness is self evident, which it isn't. Your point on female chests is especially confusing--are you arguing that bringing up anatomy is valid or invalid?

 

[Boss Doggie]

I really don't know what you're getting at, and you seem to be arguing from the position that it's badness is self evident, which it isn't. Your point on female chests is especially confusing--are you arguing that bringing up anatomy is valid or invalid?

My point is that being "cartoonish" doesn't automatically mean a design with certain tattletales is fine, and that using it as a defense is moot.

As for the latter, yeah my bad, it's an argument towards "sex being easily defined to a character".

 

[Gonzo The Great]

Sakurai's weekly Famitsu column doesn't mention the Mii Fighter costumes at all, for those of you who are still adamant that K. Rool has been "deconfirmed".

 

[BGBW]

Sakurai's weekly Famitsu column doesn't mention the Mii Fighter costumes at all, for those of you who are still adamant that K. Rool has been "deconfirmed".

I'm trying to work out the logic on show here. Why would Sakurai mentioning or not the Mii costumes have any bearing on K Rool?

 

[Ryce]

I'm trying to work out the logic on show here. Why would Sakurai mentioning or not the Mii costumes have any bearing on K Rool?

Yeah, I'm pretty confused too.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

It was barely even about Smash...

Oh, but it was about trimming fat from games. And K Rool is fat. So Sakurai is trimming K Rool, so that confirms K Rool for Smash DLC!

 

[Red Arremer]

My point is that being "cartoonish" doesn't automatically mean a design with certain tattletales is fine, and that using it as a defense is moot.

But whether or not Falco has feet that are big enough for a bird of his proportion doesn't matter, does it? He's an anthropomorphized bird, for all we know his feet aren't talons but plantigrade/human-styled (just like many anthropomorphized cartoon animals have - Mickey Mouse's feet are like that, for instance).
In fact, the only evidence we have so far for the artistic interpretation of feet in the Star Fox universe is Krystal, whose feet are clearly plantigrade, but with claws. No paws here.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Avoid KYM Smash Bros. at all costs. Holy crap.

But whether or not Falco has feet that are big enough for a bird of his proportion doesn't matter, does it? He's an anthropomorphized bird, for all we know his feet aren't talons but plantigrade/human-styled (just like many anthropomorphized cartoon animals have - Mickey Mouse's feet are like that, for instance).
In fact, the only evidence we have so far for the artistic interpretation of feet in the Star Fox universe is Krystal, whose feet are clearly plantigrade, but with claws. No paws here.

Plantigrade on anthro is common. Also techncially plantigrade bird feet exist, in fact usually shown in cartoons even. But even then plantigrade bird feet are still large compared to plantigrade mammal or reptile feet.

Like I said I'm targeting more on the defense using "cartoon" rather than whether proportions matter or not (though personally they do when it comes to aesthetics).

 

[Gonzo The Great]

I'm trying to work out the logic on show here. Why would Sakurai mentioning or not the Mii costumes have any bearing on K Rool?

Because the ballot isn't over yet and people have convinced themselves that this Mii costume is a consolation prize. Surely he would have said something if this was the end of the road for K. Rool. No news is good news.

 

[BGBW]

I don't think Sakurai will comment on the poll until it is over even if the costume was all K Rool is getting.

 

[Ryce]

Surely he would have said something if this was the end of the road for K. Rool.

Sakurai's Famitsu columns tend to be very focused, and the theme of this week's column is extra content in games. It's not a Smash Bros. column. There are zero reasons why K. Rool would have been mentioned in any context. He might talk about the Mii costumes in another week or so if he feels like dedicating a column to the third wave of DLC.

 

[UglyRareCharacter]

He made a column for Chrom right after his deconfirm tho. Unless he's just being biased against DK characters again, he would probably explain why he didn't add such a major ballot request if he was actually deconfirmed. He's so defensive in his column as is so why not use the platform of his column to justify what would be a dumb decision on his part? Instead, silence.

 

[Boss Doggie]

You guys are looking too much into it.

 

[Red Arremer]

He made a column for Chrom right after his deconfirm tho. Unless he's just being biased against DK characters again, he would probably explain why he didn't add such a major ballot request if he was actually deconfirmed. He's so defensive in his column as is so why not use the platform of his column to justify what would be a dumb decision on his part? Instead, silence.

He didn't make a column solely on Chrom, though, it was all about the Fire Emblem newcomers. He mentioned the whole process of why he chose Robin instead of Chrom, and explains a lot about Robin's moveset, and how Lucina differs from Marth and was originally intended to be an alt costume.
And of course it would make sense to release a column about those characters after their trailer reveal.

Why would he make a column solely for Mii Fighter costumes, and one particular one specifically? He hasn't done anything like that in any of the other waves of DLC before that, so why would he do it now?

Also, what the fuck at the bolded part.

 

[BGBW]

Gee Sakurai hasn't mentioned Haruka in his column so I guess she's a shoe in since silence = all but confirmed.

 

[UglyRareCharacter]

Making all new and detailed textures for the most voted for first party newcomer with nothing holding him back only for the sake of a costume for a concept a lot of people don't use and that can't be accessed online would be dumb. Pretend to be angry all you like over the word, it wouldn't be the first time it could describe something Sakurai has done like tripping.

Lol at Haruka being worth addressing the same way K. Rool is. I dont even know which one s/he is.

Another thing, if he or Inkling were costumes because of the ballot, wouldnt Nintendo jump at the chance to pump its chest about using its results for costumes?

 

[BGBW]

So now having new textures made just for a Mii costume is another factor? Well I guess we all know how the next Fire Emblem rep is:

There's really no point in getting worked up with weird reasons why a character is obviously getting in as more often than not it only leads to disappointment. May I remind you of the Ice Climber polar bear and Rhythm Tengoku sneaky spirit in Smash Run.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Isn't that more a case of that stuff being in Smash Run because Ice Climbers and a RH rep were cut mid-development and not 'just because'?

 

[BGBW]

Isn't that more a case of that stuff being in Smash Run because Ice Climbers and a RH rep were cut mid-development and not 'just because'?

People saw both of those and basically up until the ESRB revealed anything (well Ice Climbers not returning was confirmed a bit earlier than that was it not?) assumed both were coming, especially with one being a vet and another one being rumoured. It's an example were predictions were dashed despite "credible" evidence and should be taken as a lesson in how not to hype yourself up over something.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

True I guess, but it still seems like under different development circumstances those people would've been completely vindicated for using that logic.

Sorta off this tangent, but was Black Knight talked about all that much as a possible character for Smash 4? I remember him cropping up a ton as a FE villain rep after Ike was revealed, but I figured he was like Midna where by Smash 4 even if they had a fanbase nobody seriously considered them as a new character.

 

[Golnei]

Sorta off this tangent, but was Black Knight talked about all that much as a possible character for Smash 4? I remember him cropping up a ton as a FE villain rep after Ike was revealed, but I figured he was like Midna where by Smash 4 even if they had a fanbase nobody seriously considered them as a new character.

I don't think any non-Awakening (or series-wide characters who appeared in Awakening, like Anna and Tiki) characters were ever seriously considered. And unlike Midna; there was no point in time where he would have made sense as a playable character, even when his game wasn't three entries old.

Though he would have been a reasonable choice for an Assist Trophy, possibly with a dual role as a unique near-invincible Smash Run enemy.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Black Knight's costume is really an oddballl. The rest of the costumes, except the generic ones, are all pretty obvious ballot leaders, or at least ones that did decent in the ballot.

And then there's the Black Knight with an entirely new hat system as well. Only Mii hat in the game that 100% replaces the Mii's head. Which is interesting and I hope it's used more in the future, especially so costumes stop looking like the Mii skinned the character and wears its pelt as a trophy. So either someone at Namco just really like Path of Radiance, or Black Knight actually got some votes.

Also off topic, but I find it nice that after hearing it for 7 stupid years, with Mewtwo finally out in the same game as Lucario, people seem to have stopped the "Mewtwo is just a Lucario clone!" nonsense. Boy that was dumb. It took both characters actually existing at the same time for people to realize that sharing one neutral special (that doesn't function the same at all and are the signature moves of those Pokemon) does not make a clone.

Now maybe when Wolf comes out people will stop trying to pretend he's a clone when he only shares a Final Smash and a few vaguely similar specials. And maybe they'll come to their senses and realize a red land master is the stupidest Final Smash that has ever existed.

 

[Golnei]

Black Knight's costume is really an oddballl. The rest of the costumes, except the generic ones, are all pretty obvious ballot leaders, or at least ones that did decent in the ballot.

And then there's the Black Knight with an entirely new hat system as well. Only Mii hat in the game that 100% replaces the Mii's head. Which is interesting and I hope it's used more in the future, especially so costumes stop looking like the Mii skinned the character and wears its pelt as a trophy. So either someone at Namco just really like Path of Radiance, or Black Knight actually got some votes.

It's plausible that he was voted for, but I'd also find it likely that Sakurai pushed for it to be included, since he's such a huge fan of the series. Alternatively, perhaps a Black Knight assist trophy / enemy / stage hazard was planned at some point; and this costume was just repurposing what work was done on the model? The 3DS Flying Man costume does look remarkably similar to the scrapped 3D Flying Men, after all...

And maybe they'll come to their senses and realize a red land master is the stupidest Final Smash that has ever existed.

We both know that's impossible - if they didn't give Roy or Dr. Mario new Final Smashes when they weren't bound by the previous game's precedent, Wolf won't become the first veteran to get theirs decloned.

 

[Boss Doggie]

If Wolf comes out and not skinned.

Would love it if Wolf's FS is summoning the landmaster and detonating it.

 

[UglyRareCharacter]

I don't think the costumes were from ballot results. Unless Lloyd and Chrom and Black Knight were just loooooooved in Japan, they seem to just have been part of a costume plan meant to give stuff to a bunch of different series. Are generic bears and hoodies supposed to be "fan-service" from the ballot too?

And if you think about it K. Rool is the only real major DK character who stands on two feet like the Mii's. And the only one with a new model and textures since the Black Knight has a trophy and those others have other roles in the game already. Like it or not he's a special case here.

 

[NeonZ]

We both know that's impossible - if they didn't give Roy or Dr. Mario new Final Smashes when they weren't bound by the previous game's precedent, Wolf won't become the first veteran to get theirs decloned.

Roy pretty much has a new Final Smash though. It's technically another Critical hit, but it has a completely different animation and gameplay effect.

 

[kirby_fox]

I don't think the costumes were from ballot results. Unless Lloyd and Chrom and Black Knight were just loooooooved in Japan, they seem to just have been part of a costume plan meant to give stuff to a bunch of different series. Are generic bears and hoodies supposed to be "fan-service" from the ballot too?

And if you think about it K. Rool is the only real major DK character who stands on two feet like the Mii's. And the only one with a new model and textures since the Black Knight has a trophy and those others have other roles in the game already. Like it or not he's a special case here.

You K Rool fans are gearing up for disappointment. Your argument is also really faulty-- the costumes weren't from ballot results, except for K Rool which is obviously a special case...

Yeah, I'm on the side of "Costume likely means they're done." Look at the other costumes-- Lloyd, Chrom, Black Knight. They are or were at one point popular requests that could have been added in. K Rool falls right in line with them. They can't make a ton of characters into playable fighters, and this is a consolation prize. I've bit my lip on it before, and I'd love to be proven wrong, but there's a lot of implications that say "yeah, this is all we're getting."

 

[UglyRareCharacter]

K. Rool costume could have been before the ballot. Although no one will think that on this site where the people whining about how he's ugly and fat said 'hahaha nobody cares about him' before the ballot and everyone kind of passively accepted that as fact and that Dixie was the shoo in.

He was one of the highest wants all through the game and the interim between release and ballot. Doesn't make it for sure this wasn't a consolation but this isn't something to say with certainty either way, as much as people want to close the book on the Rool hype train so their favs can shine instead.

 

[kirby_fox]

K. Rool costume could have been before the ballot. He was one of the highest wants all through the game and the interim between release and ballot.

Be careful making broad statements, I won't quote them here in case you change your mind about the mentality here.

K Rool seems to have gone through the same vocal desire that Geno did in Brawl's days. It's a much less random choice than Geno ever was. At this point, I personally have no favorites (so you can ditch your vitriol there) but I enjoy speculating on the likelihood of characters and probability.

The main question is: why add a costume if you're just going to add the actual character as a newcomer? Why waste resources and time on something like that? This is Ridley being a boss all over again.

 

[Red Arremer]

First of all: Even if K. Rool tops off the ballot votes like you seem to think, that doesn't mean that the ballot winner is going to actually get put into the game.

Second: Nobody really cares about him being fat and ugly - his visual design doesn't matter anyway. The point most people have made against K. Rool is that he simply doesn't have the relevance that Dixie has. Beyond spin-offs like that Mario Baseball one (which was released 7 years ago and the last appearance of K. Rool iirc), he hasn't appeared in any actual games since Donkey Kong 64 (and the puzzle and racing games are spin-offs, mind you).
Dixie Kong, on the other hand, has appeared as a playable character in the most recent installment of the Donkey Kong Country series (Tropical Freeze), and has had as many cameos in spin-offs as K. Rool, if not more.
To top it off, Dixie was planned for Brawl, but the partner mechanic with Diddy was ditched for an unknown reason. This means that Dixie clearly is on Sakurai's radar as well.

Now here's a funny thing: I could also apply the same logic you are doing with K. Rool's Mii costume to Dixie: Look at her trophy in the new Smash game.

This is, in fact, an entirely new model in a pose that has never been used before. Google it yourself, if you don't believe me.
Now, I was being mocked about this before for bringing this up as a hint that Dixie might've been at least planned to be playable, but here's the question I'll pose to you, UglyRareCharacter:
Would Sakurai and his team have gone through the process of making an entirely new model for Dixie Kong if they could've just nicked the Tropical Freeze model, and all that just for a trophy?

Think about it.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

We both know that's impossible - if they didn't give Roy or Dr. Mario new Final Smashes when they weren't bound by the previous game's precedent, Wolf won't become the first veteran to get theirs decloned.

Roy's Final Smash is 100% unique. It works nothing like Marth's, and is more similar to Meta-Knight's.

Now here's a funny thing: I could also apply the same logic you are doing with K. Rool's Mii costume to Dixie: Look at her trophy in the new Smash game.

This is, in fact, an entirely new model in a pose that has never been used before. Google it yourself, if you don't believe me.
Now, I was being mocked about this before for bringing this up as a hint that Dixie might've been at least planned to be playable, but here's the question I'll pose to you, UglyRareCharacter:
Would Sakurai and his team have gone through the process of making an entirely new model for Dixie Kong if they could've just nicked the Tropical Freeze model, and all that just for a trophy?

Think about it.

That model is taken from Barrel Blast, like Lanky's was. It's not a new model. It's a new pose, but so was Lanky's.

 

[Golnei]

Roy's Final Smash is 100% unique. It works nothing like Marth's, and is more similar to Meta-Knight's.

I hadn't really looked at it, so I had no idea there were any mechanical differences, I assumed it was just a new animation, as with Dr. Mario.

Though even with Roy's changes, the precedent of Falco, Toon Link and Sheik's unaltered Final Smashes still does seem to suggest Wolf won't have many differences from his Brawl FS if he's DLC.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

And they actually cloned Lucas' final smash :/

It used to be slightly different in Brawl. The meteors would move in a different direction for Lucas. They were also different colored.

And now it's 100% identical to Ness'

 

[Ryce]

Lucas' Final Smash pose isn't even unique anymore. I don't understand that.

 

[Boss Doggie]

In any case FSes are nerfed compared to Brawl anyway.

 

[Red Arremer]

That model is taken from Barrel Blast, like Lanky's was. It's not a new model. It's a new pose, but so was Lanky's.

The fur texture looks different tho.

 

[Geminosity]

K. Rool costume could have been before the ballot. Although no one will think that on this site where the people whining about how he's ugly and fat said 'hahaha nobody cares about him' before the ballot and everyone kind of passively accepted that as fact and that Dixie was the shoo in.

He was one of the highest wants all through the game and the interim between release and ballot. Doesn't make it for sure this wasn't a consolation but this isn't something to say with certainty either way, as much as people want to close the book on the Rool hype train so their favs can shine instead.

We've already had a rather large and lengthy discussion about how we don't really have any clue who was the highest voted as Nintendo hasn't released the numbers and any outside data gathering will be both unreliable and not necessarily representative of what Nintendo has actually received, which is the only data that truly matters.
If I wanted to I could easily use the Famitsu polls to justify claims of Hatsune Miku being a hugely demanded character and even show that K.Rool didn't make the top selection, but I don't because that's only the famitsu readers and heck knows what percentage of them are even represented in the actual Nintendo Ballot: they could infact be a small number because who knows how many went on to actually vote in the ballot itself or it could be a large one considering it's one of the top gaming publications in Japan.
Point is, I have enough wits about me not to wave some poll around as if it's cast iron proof of whatever I want it to be, because none of them are. At best they're an interesting piece of data, at worst a flawed foundation to build an argument on. This is the reason you won't see me reference any other polls than the official Capcom ones when talking about streetfighter, because if I wanted to I could easily contrast the data the company actually collected and used with useless ones from Gamefaqs, eventhubs, random sites or the like, but it wouldn't make them any more true.

This is the problem I have with the internet sometimes: it's too easy for it to become an echo chamber allowing you to hear what you want to hear and it becomes simple for you to surround yourself with like-minded individuals who share a view that may actually be a minority, creating the illusion you're part of the majority. This is especially true with functions like ignore or the like, which I stubbornly refuse to use because I like to see as clearly as possible rather than blinkering myself.
Don't fall into the trap of thinking any of us are the majority, this isn't the candy crush topic: we're all a minority here

 

[Ryce]

We've already had a rather large and lengthy discussion about how we don't really have any clue who was the highest voted as Nintendo hasn't released the numbers and any outside data gathering will be both unreliable and not necessarily representative of what Nintendo has actually received, which is the only data that truly matters.
If I wanted to I could easily use the Famitsu polls to justify claims of Hatsune Miku being a hugely demanded character and even show that K.Rool didn't make the top selection, but I don't because that's only the famitsu readers and heck knows what percentage of them are even represented in the actual Nintendo Ballot: they could infact be a small number because who knows how many went on to actually vote in the ballot itself or it could be a large one considering it's one of the top gaming publications in Japan.
Point is, I have enough wits about me not to wave some poll around as if it's cast iron proof of whatever I want it to be, because none of them are. At best they're an interesting piece of data, at worst a flawed foundation to build an argument on. This is the reason you won't see me reference any other polls than the official Capcom ones when talking about streetfighter, because if I wanted to I could easily contrast the data the company actually collected and used with useless ones from Gamefaqs, eventhubs, random sites or the like, but it wouldn't make them any more true.

This is the problem I have with the internet sometimes: it's too easy for it to become an echo chamber allowing you to hear what you want to hear and it becomes simple for you to surround yourself with like-minded individuals who share a view that may actually be a minority, creating the illusion you're part of the majority. This is especially true with functions like ignore or the like, which I stubbornly refuse to use because I like to see as clearly as possible rather than blinkering myself.
Don't fall into the trap of thinking any of us are the majority, this isn't the candy crush topic: we're all a minority here

Excellent post. This is sort of what Chris Pranger from the Treehouse was saying; loud voices on the Internet do not represent nearly as big of an audience as they think they do.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Kind of makes you wonder whose actually the front runner of the poll.

 

[Boss Doggie]

what if it's Popeye, who had strong ties with NES lol