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[Chittagong]

My theory of what happened in Nintendo's R&D, in chronological order - one event leading into another.

1. Nintendo was working on a next gen handheld with ARM9 with a spec aimed at being able to create a N64 level experience on a handheld, complete with a new storage format to go with it. This would have been the logical continuation of the GB range (sub-NES, NES, Super NES, N64)

2. Nintendo wanted to ensure backwards compatibility with GBA. Originally they probably figured that ARM9 would take care of it, but it must have been a dead end. So, they had to put ARM7 in, too, in a similar way as bc works in PS2.

3. With two chips in, they realized that they have slack in they way they utilize their hw if one out of the two processors is always not in use. Nintendo hates inefficiency in hw design.

4. Doing dual processor with a single screen would have been confusing for programmers to grasp and master.

5. Somebody came up with a totally out-of-the-box idea of having another screen for the other processor. Simplifying development by having one processor for one screen and still providing full utilization of the hardware, such a disruptive idea could have gone forward only at Nintendo. The announcement of PSP must have helped this decision, since creating an oddball device would give Nintendo the possibility to claim that this is "something else", instead of being the next Game Boy. While still a major distraction to PSP, it doesn't risk the GB lineup and buys Nintendo some time to come up with a more powerful handheld.

6. With the two screens in place, Nintendo had to come up with ideas on to utilize the second screen. Touch screen vendors must have given also Nintendo their usual pitches. As a stroke of Nintendo genius, they realized that the touchscreen could be put in at this point as it was cheap and durable enough for mass market.

7. Wireless came in from the Pokémon + Motorola heritage. Although not a major breakthrough in the success of Pokémon, the fact that Nokia was pushing wireless hard made it a necessary addition.

8. The addition of wireless was originally only aimed at the Pokémon type usage, close range gameplay. However, with Reggie and his "crackberry" thinking in, Nintendo created a PR story out of the potential of DS connecting over internet. Now they are playing catch-up. Initial concepts support only close range gameplay, and at the moment they must be trying out a userfriendly and simple way to the consumers to utilize this functionality.

9. Because this work is ongoing, it is still possible that the true online experience will go the way of the NES, Super NES and N64 expansion ports (Japan only, because Nintendo can handle the whole country cohesively, but not the whole world), or the way of the GCN broadband adapter (third-parties can use it at their own risk).

Ok, thats the theory. Now, two significant unanswered questions from the development process I just can't figure out.

- What happened to the analog controller? It sure must have been in the spec for a N64 level handheld. Great, cheap and durable solutions are available (no, I don't mean the shitty nub in PSP, but a decent portable analog - they exist).

- What's the story behind the two wireless protocols?

Finally, my comments on all this:

- Nintendo DS is not future proof in any way. Because Sony messed up the tech curve of portables, Nintendo has a major problem in coming up with a powerful yet cheap and durable concept for a follower.

- No follower for DS can be ever made. The necessary requirements of two screens, touchscreen and compatibility with two ARM processors render it not feasible.

- The rapid pace of mobile phone development must have caught Nintendo off-guard, too - see Ngage stuff appearing for Nintendo DS.

- The initial success of DS will distract Nintendo of the necessity of a swift follow up. The low spec will hit them in the head late 2005 as phones and PSP have better specs.

- The novelty of the two screens and touch screen won't carry Nintendo for long. Not having a solid follow-up plan in place, there will be a point of time where Nintendo does not have an attractive offering in the market. The impossibility of Nintendo loosing the portable market will come true, with Sony, Nokia and maybe Microsoft in some way eating up a majority part.

Some recerences from other threads:

Like I originally suspected, the original DS design apparently was just a 66Mhz ARM9 CPU feeding a 256x192 single screen. This was back when PowerVR was pimping the MBX everywhere.

But at the same token, I think Sony aims way too high (IMO, PSP's chips are couple years too early: They should have been relased for sub .05 micron process). PSP will suffer in battery performance until the fab process catches up with the PSP chips' power dissipation.

I still think the ideal portable for early 2005 should have been a 3.5" 320x240 16bit LCD screened, 200Mhz ARM9 supporting a 100Mhz PowerVR MBX with 16MB of RAM and a none-optical ROM for around $130 or less.

That, I think, is my longest post ever.

 

[Shogmaster]

Dude, you are killing me for not archiving my old classic thread that had every Nintenzealot here burning me in effigy last january. It basically said:

As of April of 2003, Nintendo was cruising along developing the sucessor to the GBA SP in an incremental basis. Basically, faster ARM9 CPU, slightly higher res screen, rudimentary 3D, backwards compatability to the GBA, etc..

Then in May 2003 (E3), Sony drops the bomb about PSP and the shit hits the fan @ Ninny R and D, since by the specs they know that the GBA SP successor they've been working on is rediculously out classed by the announced PSP. They panick. They need a plan B ASAP.

Fast forward to October of 2003 ~ January of 2004 whenever exactly that was, and the plan B to combat PSP is announced: The DS - the ultimate weapon of mass distraction, designed to syphon away the consumers from full on PSP attention until a proper PSP competitor can be devised.

DS, as I explained back then, was just the old GBA SP successor design with additional screen and digitiser added to make a lemon into a lemonade, which means that the work put into the development thus far is not all flushed down the toilet, and allows for a fast dev time.

And thus DS and the "third pillar" is born, yadda ydda yadda, and I was accused of masterful trolling.

THE END

 

[Chittagong]

I have tried to find the first occurence of the chatter of

- Third Pillar
- Trump Card

etc.

My conclusion is that this discourse was introduced after E3 2003.

Remember Iwata saying something along the lines of "If only 10% of the people like it, we will be successful"? That figure must be the impact Nintendo expected the PSP to have to their marketshare.

Another very odd species of DS talk is that it seems that everyone in Nintendo "invented the idea of DS". Thus far I recall at least Yamauchi, Iwata and Miyamoto taking publicly credit of the idea.

Damn if I could one day walk inside that Kioto fortress to do some research on Nintendo's R&D history. Their lab must be the home of the most bizarre things never seeing daylight.

 

[APerfectCircle]

but no, nintendo realised that gaming is losing popularity, and they needed to make a new unique type of gaming experiance, the DS was born, nothing to do with the psp announcement. For the good of the industry!

 

[DDayton]

Another very odd species of DS talk is that it seems that everyone in Nintendo "invented the idea of DS". Thus far I recall at least Yamauchi, Iwata and Miyamoto taking publicly credit of the idea.

Damn if I could one day walk inside that Kioto fortress to do some research on Nintendo's R&D history. Their lab must be the home of the most bizarre things never seeing daylight.

The only issue I have with your general theory is that Nintendo would have known that Sony was working on some sort of high end portable -- I don't think the DS was a "panic" idea, although I will agree that it may have been announced sooner than expected because of the PSP announcement. Nintendo knew Sony was working on some sort of portable, and knowing Sony, the portable would designed for fairly impressive graphics and sound.

When were the first DS game announcements revealed, again?

 

[Shogmaster]

The only issue I have with your general theory is that Nintendo would have known that Sony was working on some sort of high end portable -- I don't think the DS was a "panic" idea, although I will agree that it may have been announced sooner than expected because of the PSP announcement. Nintendo knew Sony was working on some sort of portable, and knowing Sony, the portable would designed for fairly impressive graphics and sound.

Dude, look at the pic! It's proof that DS wasn't "DS" until PSP was announced!

When were the first DS game announcements revealed, again?

I'd guess around the same time frame as DS itself. late 2003/early 2004.

 

[Chittagong]

This is becoming a vagina monolog, but one more thing supporting the boosted-GBA2 theory of Nintendo DS is the codename of the project.

Although too much cannot be read in the codenames (Dolphin, anyone?), I find it still interesting that the codename of what eventually became the DS changed from IRIS => NITRO. I can almost imagine the guys in the white lab coat shouting "let's nitro boost next game system plan!!".

 

[Chittagong]

The only issue I have with your general theory is that Nintendo would have known that Sony was working on some sort of high end portable -- I don't think the DS was a "panic" idea, although I will agree that it may have been announced sooner than expected because of the PSP announcement. Nintendo knew Sony was working on some sort of portable, and knowing Sony, the portable would designed for fairly impressive graphics and sound.

Believe me, the PSP annoucement came as a big surprise to pretty much the entire industry. It is the biggest paper launch I've ever seen. Not too many even within Sony saw it coming at that spec. Although it was clear that Sony has had plans to enter the space for a while, the spec is crazy for 2004.

I'm absolutely thrilled to get to crack open the final HW to see how they catched up the spec Kutaragi put up on the big screen back in May 2003. If the thing really works, can be profitable and does have a battery life, I'm ready to declare Sony's R&D lab the best in the world.

 

[Grubdog]

I could have sworn I read somewhere that someone at Nintendo had that touch screen idea and pretty much the whole idea for the DS in their heads for years. I highly doubt the product we see today has anything to do with Sony's second attempt at the portable games market.

Can someone explain to me what that pic proves? Is that supposed to be the entire system? From when?

I do think the system was rushed to release because of PSP though, damn it Sony, you ruin everything!

 

[DDayton]

I could have sworn I read somewhere that someone at Nintendo had that touch screen idea and pretty much the whole idea for the DS in their heads for years. I highly doubt the product we see today has anything to do with Sony's second attempt at the portable games market.

The presence of the earlier prototype means that the current DS system wasn't necessarily a touch screen system from the beginning... and that's something I find rather plausible. I do think that the dual/touch screen features were discussed/planned before the PSP announcement, though -- although I'm willing to bet they weren't in place from the beginning.

Sorry if I sounded too "unbelieving," Chitta... I just think that if the DS were more of a reactionary change, we'd see more impressive results. While your theory is quite plausible, a double/touch screen seems less like a last minute change and more like a design pulled in from an earlier stage.

Of course, I could be wrong! Heh.

Edit: One thing I find interesting is that it seems that the Iris had the same button setup as the GBA. Is there any way to confirm that this was the protoype for what became the DS? I've heard rumors that the R&D division has had a few portable prototypes floating about...

 

[deadhorse32]

I have tried to find the first occurence of the chatter of

- Third Pillar
- Trump Card

etc.

My conclusion is that this discourse was introduced after E3 2003.

August 07, 2003 see http://www.video-fenky.com/archives/2003_08.html

 

[DCharlie]

One of the horny old style GBAs got into the Retro cupboard and started sexing up the old game and watches....

 

[john tv]

Mil, you can link directly to the article (rather than the entire month): http://www.video-fenky.com/archives/000059.html

 

[explodet]

Mil, you can link directly to the article (rather than the entire month): http://www.video-fenky.com/archives/000059.html

What the hell is going on with the comments below it?

Donkey Kong in development with Namco; console unknown; coming out before end of the year (normal year, not fiscal year)

Remember the initial reaction Donkey Konga received? Ah, good times.

 

[Chittagong]

Just dug up a pic of the early GBA dev board. Note how it has the same code as the final product - AGB. There is much similarity to the IRIS board pic.

EDIT: better pic, sorry for the size

 

[FriScho]

I think you are right, but I don't think that PSP is too early. The only real problem with PSP ist the battery. But there are first fuelcells for cel-phones and sony will release new versions of PSP with less energy demand and better batteries in future. Just like the original Gameboy was bulky, had a crappy display and was grey/green and later they released the Gameboy Color that fixed all of that. Or the GBA with crappy screen that got fixed with the GBA SP. So I do not agree, that PSP tech is too early. I think they needed to be at that level to make a visual impact on the market. They needed to impress, else they would have gone the NeoGeo Pocket and Ngage-way.

 

[deadhorse32]

Mil, you can link directly to the article (rather than the entire month): http://www.video-fenky.com/archives/000059.html

I was searching for a direct link but didn't find one. Thanks

 

[Shinobi]

Damn if I could one day walk inside that Kioto fortress to do some research on Nintendo's R&D history. Their lab must be the home of the most bizarre things never seeing daylight.

Heh, I think Sega has 'em beat for that sort of stuff. Saturn Eclipse, Saturn VF3, DC VF4 and Lord knows what else. Going into Sega's R&D vault would be like a kid entering a candy store.

 

[MrparisSM]

The only problem with your theory is that the PSP was known about LONG before it was announced. And I'm sure it was known about even longer at Nintendo. Stuff like that can't remain secret forreal. The only "bomb" that Sony dropped when they announced PSP was the actual power of the device and the screen. Nintendo has been known to do quirky "out-of the box" things alll the time. They were the first to do several things in the Videogame industry that were not the norm. I think the touchscreen/dual screen was a natural continuation of that.

The PSP is great technology for sure... But is it good for the industry? With portable games being sold $20 cheaper than current Gen games, is it really feasible to develop high quality 3D titles for it?? Development costs are at a all time high at the moment. I don't think most developers want to put all that money into a portable title and then struggle to make a profit on it. Nintendo seems to know the business alot better(they even make way more money than Sony's videogame segment and practically the whole of Sony). With them using N64 tech, it keeps development costs down, doesn't drain the battery life as quick. The Touch screen/dual screens helps keep things fresh for gamers, and offers a new challenge to developers. It's a win-win situation for everyone. The most PSP is going to get are ports, just mark my words. Also it seems like Sony is on a crash course with PSP pricing it the way they have. They are not Microsoft and are already struggling to make a profit in their non-videogame sections of the company. We'll see how this plays out. But losing so much money on the PSP and making the dev costs so high by having high tech and low battery life w/ UMD... I just don't see how they could win....

 

[Chittagong]

The only problem with your theory is that the PSP was known about LONG before it was announced. And I'm sure it was known about even longer at Nintendo. Stuff like that can't remain secret forreal. The only "bomb" that Sony dropped when they announced PSP was the actual power of the device and the screen. Nintendo has been known to do quirky "out-of the box" things alll the time. They were the first to do several things in the Videogame industry that were not the norm. I think the touchscreen/dual screen was a natural continuation of that.

But losing so much money on the PSP and making the dev costs so high by having high tech and low battery life w/ UMD... I just don't see how they could win....

Very valid points. I agree that it has been a "public secret" for long that Sony has aspirations for the portables industry. By the shock I meant indeed

- The power
- The release schedule

and now

- The price

I'm along the same lines on how problematic the expense of developing will become. PSP has indeed it's fair share of problems, most of them Sony's problems. The business formula just doesn't compute. However, assuming any sort of decent battery life, it's a fantastic proposal to the consumer. Never before such high-end tech has been available at a 149€ pricepoint. Actually might not be this time either - I'm now hearing that SCEE is struggling to get the Euro price under 300€ - apparently they are unable to introduce the Japan price elsewhere in the world.

While the DS is balanced better, the fact that PSP is so close will affect the public perception of DS. In a world where there was no PSP, consumers would see it differently. But with such a powerful device, it can only look outdated.

This is why I believe the market shares will be distributed very differently in a few years time. But unless the hw manufacturers can figure out a way to run a profitable business with the decreasing volumes (assuming volume decrease due to makret share decrease > industry growth), EA will be the only one making money with this.

 

[Sho Nuff]

This is one fucking great thread!!!

 

[Amir0x]

The most PSP is going to get are ports, just mark my words. Also it seems like Sony is on a crash course with PSP pricing it the way they have. They are not Microsoft and are already struggling to make a profit in their non-videogame sections of the company. We'll see how this plays out. But losing so much money on the PSP and making the dev costs so high by having high tech and low battery life w/ UMD... I just don't see how they could win....

There's two problems with your theory. One, there are already many non-ports announced for the PSP. Many. So that assertion is already proven wrong. Secondly, the amount of ports or near-ports for the DS at launch (or near launch) was actually more than what we know will be out for PSP launch.

DS had:

Urbz (a multi-console release, extremely similar to its GBA counterpart)
Mario 64 DS (an updated remake of a game that came out eight years ago)
Ridge Racer DS (a port of RR64)
Rayman DS (a port of Rayman 2)
Asphalt GT (a port of the NGage title)
Madden 2005 (a multi-console release, but not exactly a "new" game)

PSP has ports, but at launch it has:

Metal Gear Acid
Lumines
Ridge Racers (not a port of any Ridge Racer game)
An original Need for Speed Underground game (Rivals)
Madden (?) (a multi-console release like DS, of course)
Mingol (I'm not sure if this is an entirely new game in the Hot Shots series, but I think it is)

The PSP will have ports, no doubt. And a lot of them. But actually, the PSP has more "original" titles or new games in already established franchises at its launch than the DS had. So, by this trend alone you are factually wrong. But maybe it will end up being just ports. I highly doubt it, though, especially if the PSP picks up.

As for your last statement, that the company is losing too much money that you can't see how it's going to be a success - look at PS2, look at Xbox. You're wrong there already.

 

[Defensor]

MrparisSM, do you like to downplay Sony at every chance you get?

 

[mrklaw]

I can see the point about cost of development, but in the next year or so, PS2 skilled developers will be moving onto PS3 - the PSP is an ideal avenue for their mature toolsets to continue and make games for PSP. Although asset costs will still be high, developers can leverage the last few years of PS2 development to help alleviate that.

And if its possible next-gen, even share assets with the big releases.

Believe me, the PSP annoucement came as a big surprise to pretty much the entire industry. It is the biggest paper launch I've ever seen. Not too many even within Sony saw it coming at that spec. Although it was clear that Sony has had plans to enter the space for a while, the spec is crazy for 2004

It surprised a lot of people in a lot of different places, hey Chittagong

 

[Spiritreaver]

There's two problems with your theory. One, there are already many non-ports announced for the PSP. Many. So that assertion is already proven wrong. Secondly, the amount of ports or near-ports for the DS at launch (or near launch) was actually more than what we know will be out for PSP launch.

I have a few problems with your comparison, though it was a very nice post. First, you're making an indirect comparison (number of ports to number of non ports) as opposed to just showing how much of both each has. Second, you're comparing a much more competitive Japanese PSP launch, to an open market US DS launch, we were obviously going to have fewer and less surprising titles.

I think a fairer comparison would be to look at both Japanese launches. DS has as far as new titles go...

One-Line Puzzle
Feel the Magic
Jam with the Band
Wario Ware
Mr. Driller
Pokemon Dash
Tendo Dokuta
Cool104Joker (I think)

versus what you listed for the PSP...

Metal Gear Acid
Lumines
Ridge Racers
An original Need for Speed Underground game
Madden
Mingol

DS also has 4 games from completely new franchises I haven't heard of (I can't be sure of that last one, so I didn't count it) as opposed to the PSP of 2 I think. So I think the potential from the get go, in Japan at least.. we can't say much about PSP yet over here, looks to have DS favoring the lead with original games and franchises. In the long run I can only think up 3 future ports for the DS as well (Animal Crossing, FFIII, and Puyo [stretching]). I think the DS hardware itself already discourages mere direct ports with all of the features that lay at the table for the developer. Sadly, Nintendo didn't decide to set much a precedent with SM64, but ACDS looks to be a much better example of what I mean.

Who knows how it'll pan out though, I think if took a more detailed look at the release lists for both systems, we can get a general idea. But right now, ironically, the DS seems to have the upperhand in original titles.

 

[Sho Nuff]

Heh, I think Sega has 'em beat for that sort of stuff. Saturn Eclipse, Saturn VF3, DC VF4 and Lord knows what else. Going into Sega's R&D vault would be like a kid entering a candy store.

I KNOW SOMEONE WHO HAS THIS. I need to visit his place stat.

 

[DSN2K]

DS is something to keep Sony down while Nintendo make something affordable unlike the PSP.

 

[DarienA]

With portable games being sold $20 cheaper than current Gen games, is it really feasible to develop high quality 3D titles for it??

Uh Last time I checked DS games range from same price as current gen to $20 cheaper than current gen, with MOST only being $10 cheaper... and a decent # being $49.99.

At Ebgames.com it breaks down as:

$29.99: 7
$39.99: 14
$49.99: 6

At Gamestop.com its:

$29.99: 6
$34/39.99: 8
$49.99: 10

And the talk about the touchscreen keeping it fresh? Get back to me once we actually SEE more than just some launch developers using it as more than just a PDA type stylus screen for additional information or touch to access options.

I think the potential is there... but there have been hardware with innovative for their time pieces before that didn't get properly taken advantage of(either in terms of the power of the hardware as it related to competiting products or new features that gave new potential ideas for gameplay/control systems).

 

[Lord Error]

DS is something to keep Sony down while Nintendo make something affordable unlike the PSP.

Is the $150 that much more affordable than $185-$200?

I'm now hearing that SCEE is struggling to get the Euro price under 300€ - apparently they are unable to introduce the Japan price elsewhere in the world.

I wouldn't read too much into those bundle preorder surveys. It'd be a big surprise if they release PSP months later for a larger price. Well, it would be in the US. Europe is a whole different beast...

 

[DarienA]

Is the $150 that much more affordable than $185-$200?

Guess that depends on the type of shopper you are.

BTW Marco if you don't check your PM's I will be forced to thrash you.

 

[Deleted member 284]

Is the $150 that much more affordable than $185-$200?


I wouldn't read too much into those bundle preorder surveys. It'd be a big surprise if they release PSP months later for a larger price. Well, it would be in the US. Europe is a whole different beast...

For the comsumer yes. For Sony as the corporation selling it? Uh...

 

[AniHawk]

Is the $150 that much more affordable than $185-$200?

Yes, because girls won't be spending money on a PSP while they get their DSes for free.

 

[mumu]

The third pillar is for girls and non-gamers. About the ports, SONY has 8 ports in December in Japan. 6 of which are simple puzzle games. And no fresh title at all, except for Lumines. SONY knows how to play the port game just as well.

 

[Lord Error]

Darien, sorry for that, I've just answered you.

 

[DarienA]

For the comsumer yes. For Sony as the corporation selling it? Uh...

I think a better question is when is $50 a big deal.

at $99 vs. $150?

at $150 vs $200?

$200 vs. $250?

When does $50 stop being a big deal? > $500? Higher?

 

[MrparisSM]

Uh Last time I checked DS games range from same price as current gen to $20 cheaper than current gen, with MOST only being $10 cheaper... and a decent # being $49.99.

At Ebgames.com it breaks down as:

$29.99: 7
$39.99: 14
$49.99: 6

At Gamestop.com its:

$29.99: 6
$34/39.99: 8
$49.99: 10

And the talk about the touchscreen keeping it fresh? Get back to me once we actually SEE more than just some launch developers using it as more than just a PDA type stylus screen for additional information or touch to access options.

I think the potential is there... but there have been hardware with innovative for their time pieces before that didn't get properly taken advantage of(either in terms of the power of the hardware as it related to competiting products or new features that gave new potential ideas for gameplay/control systems).

You can't go by Ebgames.com to do price comparisions. All the games that are listed as 39.99 and 49.99 are not even out yet. They always over price unreleased titles and systems until a official title is announced. I seriously doubt Tiger Woods, Mario Kart, Animal Crossings, Metroid, and those other unreleased games will be priced so high. :lol Nice try though.

 

[cvxfreak]

As long as Nintendo plays their cards right, then they should come out fine, even if the PSP is a mild success.

 

[MrparisSM]

There's two problems with your theory. One, there are already many non-ports announced for the PSP. Many. So that assertion is already proven wrong. Secondly, the amount of ports or near-ports for the DS at launch (or near launch) was actually more than what we know will be out for PSP launch.

DS had:

Urbz (a multi-console release, extremely similar to its GBA counterpart)
Mario 64 DS (an updated remake of a game that came out eight years ago)
Ridge Racer DS (a port of RR64)
Rayman DS (a port of Rayman 2)
Asphalt GT (a port of the NGage title)
Madden 2005 (a multi-console release, but not exactly a "new" game)

PSP has ports, but at launch it has:

Metal Gear Acid
Lumines
Ridge Racers (not a port of any Ridge Racer game)
An original Need for Speed Underground game (Rivals)
Madden (?) (a multi-console release like DS, of course)
Mingol (I'm not sure if this is an entirely new game in the Hot Shots series, but I think it is)

The PSP will have ports, no doubt. And a lot of them. But actually, the PSP has more "original" titles or new games in already established franchises at its launch than the DS had. So, by this trend alone you are factually wrong. But maybe it will end up being just ports. I highly doubt it, though, especially if the PSP picks up.

As for your last statement, that the company is losing too much money that you can't see how it's going to be a success - look at PS2, look at Xbox. You're wrong there already.

Could you please provide a link to the PSP's launch games? The only list I could find was this one.

7 titles in all:

1. Tiger Woods PGA Tour(A port)
2. Need for Speed Underground Rivals(a port with added wifi multiplayer, with new levels and cars. Just like Super Mario 64 DS had new characters and new levels + multi)
3. Vampire Chronicle(port)
5. Ridge Racer
6. Dynasty Warriors(a port?)
7 Hot shots Golf(another port)

Doesn't look all that original to me... I don't think DS's were impressive either mind you, besides Wario Ware Touched! It's going to be interesting how this handheld war pans out.

 

[marsomega]

Dude, look at the pic! It's proof that DS wasn't "DS" until PSP was announced!

The pic says nothing of a time frame. Without a time frame that pic is worthless as proof that "DS wasn't "DS" until PSP was announced! " regardless if it falls within the general speculation. The DS could of switched designs long before the PSP anouncement for all we know.

 

[Amir0x]

I have a few problems with your comparison, though it was a very nice post. First, you're making an indirect comparison (number of ports to number of non ports) as opposed to just showing how much of both each has. Second, you're comparing a much more competitive Japanese PSP launch, to an open market US DS launch, we were obviously going to have fewer and less surprising titles.

I don't think it's that far of a stretch to make a comparrison with the two systems first launches. DS gets no breaks simply because it released in the states first. Who knows how many games the US will get on the PSP side of things, for instance? So I compare what we do know. If we're comparing Japanese games, then (I was only comparing games that will most likely come to the states), I can list another 6-8 games in the PSP launch windows that are completely original. So it's a good thing I didn't do that, or it'd make the comparrisons even more weak on his part. We compare first launches to first launches; it's the most fair thing to do. But let us look at Japanese to Japanese for a moment.

Japanese PSP Launch List:

Lumines
Ren-Goku: The Tower of Purgatory (I think this got moved up though...)
Need For Speed Underground Rivals
Vampire Chronicle: The Chaos Tower (Darkstalkers) (This is a port, right?)
Hot Shots Golf
Ridge Racers
Armored Core: Formula Front
Dynasty Warriors
Metal Gear Acid
Kollon
Doko Demo Issyo
Mojipittan
The Gagharv Trilogy (?)
Puzzle Bobble Pocket (?)
Ape Escape Academics
Puyo Pop Fever (?)

These are the games in the Japanese launch window (i.e., before the end of December). Which ones are ports? I'll underline them for you! The other games are new or new games in established franchises, I believe. If you know different about Hot Shots Golf or Dynasty Warriors or Need for Speed Underground: Rivals, feel free to inform me.

For the DS (US) launch, we have already established that there are 5-6 ports (or semi-ports) in a launch with less than 10 titles. Now, if we're using your DS Japanese launch list...

(Super Mario 64 DS)
One-Line Puzzle
Feel the Magic XY/XX
Jam with the Band
Wario Ware
Mr. Driller
Pokemon Dash
Tendo Dokuta
Cool104Joker (I think)
(Rayman DS)
(Ridge Racer DS)
(Urbz: Sims in the City)
(Madden 2005)
(Asphalt GT)

Now, look at that list. First, you'll notice, the PSP launch window has more games in it than the DS launch window. And that was WITH me removing the Majong games from the PSP and DS launches. Second, you'll notice, even when comparing either the Japanese or the US launches - the DS still has less original/franchise extensions than the PSP does, and the DS still has more ports! So either way he loses, and it's not even worth debating further.

I'm simply trying to debunk the belief that PSP will be mostly ports. That's false, and that's all there is to it. It's honeslty not even worth debating.

DS also has 4 games from completely new franchises I haven't heard of (I can't be sure of that last one, so I didn't count it) as opposed to the PSP of 2 I think. So I think the potential from the get go, in Japan at least.. we can't say much about PSP yet over here, looks to have DS favoring the lead with original games and franchises. In the long run I can only think up 3 future ports for the DS as well (Animal Crossing, FFIII, and Puyo [stretching]). I think the DS hardware itself already discourages mere direct ports with all of the features that lay at the table for the developer. Sadly, Nintendo didn't decide to set much a precedent with SM64, but ACDS looks to be a much better example of what I mean.

For someone who has no preference you sure do a lot to try to defend that lil' device. No, the PSP is in the lead (based only on the launch window). This is a statement brought out clearly by the facts. Now, I do heavily believe that in the future it'll be much clearer that the DS ends up with more original content, but to say that the PSP will be 'just ports' (an assertion made by MSParis) is just factually false. And this is not even taking into account which handheld will end up the clear winner - whichever ends up the winner will be the one with the most original content by far. Who will win? I'm not making any predictions here, but it's a huge factor.

I don't think the DS hardware discourages anything; what it encourages is original game design. There's a difference. A developer will port what it wants to wherever it wants... a fact highlighted by the US DS Launch. It is up to the developer to use the tools granted to them by the DS (or any other system, for that matter) to make something interesting, original or fun. It's up to them.

Could you please provide a link to the PSP's launch games? The only list I could find was this one.

7 titles in all:

1. Tiger Woods PGA Tour(A port)
2. Need for Speed Underground Rivals(a port with added wifi multiplayer, with new levels and cars. Just like Super Mario 64 DS had new characters and new levels + multi)
3. Vampire Chronicle(port)
5. Ridge Racer
6. Dynasty Warriors(a port?)
7 Hot shots Golf(another port)

Doesn't look all that original to me... I don't think DS's were impressive either mind you, besides Wario Ware Touched! It's going to be interesting how this handheld war pans out.

Read above. Tiger Woods PGA Tour is no longer in the Japanese launch window. So if we're using that for comparrison it no longer applies. Need for Speed Underground Rivals isn't a port. It was expressed fairly clear that it'll be a whole new title in the franchise. Vampire Chronicles is a port. Ridge Racers is not a port. Dynasty Warriors is not a port (so far as we know). Hot Shots Golf is not a port either; it's a new game in the franchise. I might be wrong with Hot Shots Golf, that's the only one I'm not clear on.

 

[DarienA]

You can't go by Ebgames.com to do price comparisions. All the games that are listed as 39.99 and 49.99 are not even out yet. They always over price unreleased titles and systems until a official title is announced. I seriously doubt Tiger Woods, Mario Kart, Animal Crossings, Metroid, and those other unreleased games will be priced so high. :lol Nice try though.

OK so who are we suppose to go by then to judge prices? Your word? Fat chance.

 

[Lionheart]

Could you please provide a link to the PSP's launch games?

From http://www.gamefront.de:

12.12.04
- Vampire Chronicle: The Chaos Tower (Capcom) Yen 4.800
- Mahjong Taikai (Koei) Yen 4.200
- Mahjong Kakutou Club (Konami) Yen 4.800
- Ridge Racers (Namco) Yen 4.800
- Lumines (Bandai) Yen 4.800
- Armored Core Formula Front (From Software) Yen 4.800
- Lumines (Bandai) Yen 3.800 *NEW*
- Minna no Golf Portable (Sony) Yen 4.800 *NEW*

16.12.04
- Shin Sangoku Musou (Koei) Yen 4.800
- Kollon (CyberFront) Yen 2.500
- Metal Gear Acid (Konami) Yen 4.800
- Dokodemo Issho (Sony) Yen 4.800
- Kotoba no Puzzle Mojipittan Daijiten (Namco) Yen 4.800
- Gagharv Trilogy (Falcom) Yen 4.800

22.12.04
- AI Series Shougi (Marvelous) Yen 3.800
- AI Series Mahjong (Marvelous) Yen 3.800
- AI Series GO (Marvelous) Yen 3.800
- Puzzle Bobble Pocket (Taito) Yen 4.800 *NEW*

24.12.04
- Puyo Puyo Fever (Sega) Yen 4.800

30.12.04
- Piposaru Academia: Dossari! Sarugee Daizenshuu (Sony) Yen 4.800

Dezember 2004
- Need For Speed Underground Rival (EA) Yen 4.800 *NEW*
(ursprünglicher Termin 12.12.04)

Winter 2004/2005
- Rengoku: The Tower of Purgatory (Hudson) Yen 4.800 *NEW*
(ursprünglicher Termin 12.12.04)

Edit: too late

 

[Doc Holliday]

The portable that will win is the one with the most games, longer battery life, cheaper, and has the buzz. Right now the ds looks like it will be on top...however sony has an oppurtunity to take a bite out of nintendos market in the long run. I just dont see all those people with DS/GBA/SP shell 189-200 bucks for another portable system esp when the DS has a lot more buzz with the general public right now. Sony was kinda fucked by Nintendo when they released the DS so soon.

 

[DSN2K]

Is the $150 that much more affordable than $185-$200?

I feel the shipping numbers speak for themselves.

 

[mumu]

Lumines
Ren-Goku: The Tower of Purgatory
Need For Speed Underground Rivals
Vampire Chronicle: The Chaos Tower (Darkstalkers)
Hot Shots Golf (unknown if port)
Ridge Racers
Armored Core: Formula Front
Dynasty Warriors
Metal Gear Acid
Kollon
Doko Demo Issyo
Mojipittan
The Gagharv Trilogy
Puzzle Bobble Pocket
Ape Escape Academics
Puyo Pop Fever

Fixed I've also marked all fresh titles in bold.

 

[Amir0x]

The portable that will win is the one with the most games, longer battery life, cheaper, and has the buzz. Right now the ds looks like it will be on top...however sony has an oppurtunity to take a bite out of nintendos market in the long run. I just dont see all those people with DS/GBA/SP shell 189-200 bucks for another portable system esp when the DS has a lot more buzz with the general public right now. Sony was kinda fucked by Nintendo when they released the DS so soon.

This post completely ignores a lot of factors so you should go back and think a bit harder about what you wrote.

 

[MrparisSM]

OK so who are we suppose to go by then to judge prices? Your word? Fat chance.

Do you remember the DS being priced at $199.99 on Ebgames? Remember the software being priced at $50?? I wouldn't expect you to go by my word, but just use common sense. :lol

 

[Deg]

The portable that will win is the GBASP. All you DS and PSP losers can fight over the leftovers :lol

 

[Amir0x]

Fixed I've also marked all fresh titles in bold.

Are the titles you underlined PORTS? Or are the new games in already established franchises? I was not sure about Puzzle Bobble or Puyo Fever, but I'm pretty sure Sony said Hot Shots Golf would be new. I don't know what Kollon or Doko Demo Issyo or
Mojipittan are all about, but you're going to have to provide a source proving these are -ports-.

SCE also revealed today that the game will feature six new courses that make use of the PSP's wide screen along with ten new characters. Wireless LAN play will be available for up to eight players.

Sounds like a new game in the Hot Shots series to me! Source

Minna no Golf is Sony Computer Entertainment's biggest series outside of Gran Turismo. So it makes perfect sense that a new entry in the series should accompany the release of the new PlayStation Portable system

Sup Mr. wrong. Source

 

[Mrbob]

Don't forget the PSP has been covered and has been pictured on the cover of Newsweek. So which portable has more buzz?

PSP will have a new Ridge Racer and new Metal Gear game at launch. New Hot Shots game coming soon. Some nice original games (Lumines) as well. Not bad for securing software.

he portable that will win is the GBASP. All you DS and PSP losers can fight over the leftovers

Different markets. By that token Sony should have never released the PSone in 1994/1995 since SNES/Genesis had a huge installed base worldwide.