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SONIC THE HEDGEHOG 4 or AGAINST |OT| of Huelen in Green-Eyed Heaven

Iknos

Junior Member
Roto13 said:
Apparently physics that are different automatically suck.

Never change, GAF.

Apparently some people can't read. Never change dude.

Roto13 said:
^^ This. Come on. It's a momentum-based platformer with spindashing and loops. Saying it's "nothing" like a Sonic game is just stupid.

Except there is no momentum at all.

Roto13 said:
No, you're to blame for letting go of the directional pad. You know how the game plays. You know what you need to do to stay in motion, so do it. It's not complicated.

Do you even know what "momentum" means? You let off the throttle on your car...and your car keeps rolling. It doesn't just stop there.

Before calling Sonic 4 a "momentum-based platformer" read up on what "momentum" means.
 

RobbieNick

Junior Member
jonnybryce said:
:lol You really like this game. We get it! Everyone who doesn't like it is WRONG. We get it.

I like the part where you decide people hate the physics because they're simply different (not that they suck) and that we should easily compensate for the games flaws.

Holding down the button at all times doesn't change the fact that when it motion he still feels weird. As someone earlier said; it's like Sonic in molasses.

No, people are saying the physics suck because they are constantly comparing this to the originals instead of basing it on it's own merits. Most game reviewers don't seem to have a problem with the way the game plays because they don't waste their life on stupid things like the Sonic Cycle or feel butt-hurt if the latest Sonic game doesn't live up to their expectations.

Like I said, it doesn't control worse, just different.
 

ArakniD

Neo Member
Anticitizen One said:
Why do people hate the music in this game? Other than Splash Hill zone and the fast portion of the boss theme I like it alot.

I'm not sure really.
Everyone has different tastes...

But I find the music in Sonic 4 to compliment the Genesis era music very well.
It has similar styles of chord progressions, synth riffs, drum samples and bass lines which, in my opinion, allow it to fit right in with that era of Sonic music.


Compared to the Rush games where you have horrible voice samples, clashing chords and overall bad musicality...
I find this game to be a thrill to listen to.


Blueblur1 said:
In real life, things fall to the ground in straight vertical line when thrown. Makes total sense.
I didn't realize we were throwing Sonic around.
Last I checked, we were controlling a character.
If I was a character, I'd only move right when I "commanded" my body to do so.
Just saying.
However, when it comes to things like the Pinball elements and the minecart, I totally agree.
Other than that, imo, the physics work just fine.
 

Adam Blue

Member
I think the lack of momentum that made the original Sonic games unique is definitely missing. Instead, it's homing-based gameplay.

I think that's fine on its own. But rehashing levels from Sonic 1 and 2, while using 16-bit-style music with next-gen visuals just put this horribly out of place and makes it appear that development was in disarray.

Dimps should have just made their own Sonic game with the homing attack, similar to how they did the Rush series and Sonic Colors on DS.

Sonic Team could have kept with the re-hashing of the original levels, but kept the momentum-based gameplay.

Their target might have been a newer generation not familiar with Sonic though. At the same time, my younger brother who grew up with the N64 did not like this new Sonic game.

Hopefully next Episode they figure out what they want to do. Homing-based needs newer styled levels, while momentum-based can really continue from Sonic 3&K.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
RobbieNick said:
No, people are saying the physics suck because they are constantly comparing this to the originals instead of basing it on it's own merits. Most game reviewers don't seem to have a problem with the way the game plays because they don't waste their life on stupid things like the Sonic Cycle or feel butt-hurt if the latest Sonic game doesn't live up to their expectations.

Like I said, it doesn't control worse, just different.
That's the kind of stance I thought I would have before I played it. I'm not demanding strict adherence to some old standard of gameplay....

But the "wrongness" of the physics presents itself to me so obviously that the game feels ruined.

Sure, I played the old games. On some unconsous level I am "comparing" it to the old games.. But I would surely have been open to "different, but good." This is different, and clearly worse than the game design of the original. It's less fun.
 
I dunno, after reading reviews and seeing things like "Homing shot noticeably improves platforming" and "This game is the New Super Mario Bros. of Sonic and captures the old feel perfectly," I get the feeling a lot of these reviews are based off PR statements.

Eh, I don't really have a dog in this fight. Played the demo, the game felt off, statements like that just bothered me.
 

TheOGB

Banned
Sega1991 said:
I'm not saying that different is bad, though. Sonic Rush is not a bad game. The Sonic Rush physics are appropriate for the type of game they were designed for.

The problem rears its head when Sonic 4 tries to be "like the old games" in a physics engine that was not designed to appropriately handle that kind of level design. Hence, you homing attack a spring that takes you across a pit, and instinctively let go of the analog stick because, typically, even in the Sonic Rush games in which Sonic 4's physics engine is based upon, holding a direction after being sprung will usually make you overshoot/undershoot your destination.

Except that in this case, you're supposed to be holding the direction, otherwise you'll never make it far enough. The game makes zero indication that this is what is supposed to be happening, and Sonic stops moving, falls straight down, and dies.

That is bad design. Not just "different" design, but BAD.
Sensible Sonic fans. You gotta love
all 14 of
'em.

Nice review btw
 
I was speed running Lost Labyrinth act 1 and made it to 12th place, but I can't figure out the top scores. This is the level with the giant balls you need to roll on, as Super you can skip most of them except the final one. I have tried but I am unable to jump that huge gap, I have to ride the ball for a good 8 seconds before jumping off. The times on the level are insane, they must have found some way to skip that, anyone have any clue. I am stumped.
 
Sega1991 said:
I'm not saying that different is bad, though. Sonic Rush is not a bad game. The Sonic Rush physics are appropriate for the type of game they were designed for.

The problem rears its head when Sonic 4 tries to be "like the old games" in a physics engine that was not designed to appropriately handle that kind of level design. Hence, you homing attack a spring that takes you across a pit, and instinctively let go of the analog stick because, typically, even in the Sonic Rush games in which Sonic 4's physics engine is based upon, holding a direction after being sprung will usually make you overshoot/undershoot your destination.

Except that in this case, you're supposed to be holding the direction, otherwise you'll never make it far enough. The game makes zero indication that this is what is supposed to be happening, and Sonic stops moving, falls straight down, and dies.

That is bad design. Not just "different" design, but BAD.
Thank you.
 
ShockingAlberto said:
I dunno, after reading reviews and seeing things like "Homing shot noticeably improves platforming" and "This game is the New Super Mario Bros. of Sonic and captures the old feel perfectly," I get the feeling a lot of these reviews are based off PR statements.

Eh, I don't really have a dog in this fight. Played the demo, the game felt off, statements like that just bothered me.

Well I have no stake in the game but I agree with both statements. The homing attack being added is not a bad thing it works perfectly in the game.
 

Zen

Banned
So I've pretty much beaten the game aside from, well, beating the game. At the very least I've played enough to give my opinion on it. It's a pretty good game, truth be told, but your mileage will vary depending on how much you wanted it to play as Sonic The Hedgehog 3&K-2 and how burned you feel by 'momentum is earned'.

Sonic has a lot more weight to him than before, meaning that he decelerates much harder and faster than he accelerates. What this does in practice (especially for speed runs) is place much more importance on using the air dash and homing shot to position yourself in the environment. It feels like a real hybrid of 3D and 2D Sonic, with the route and input memorization of the 3D games injected into 2D gameplay. If you aren't holding down a button in one direction, Sonic will basically come to a complete stop 9/10 times. The game could do with a little bit more inertia, but I don't feel like the game necessarily should replicate the physics engine of the 16 bit games down to the very decimal place. After having played those classic games for so long, it is refreshing to get a flash sideways version classic Sonic in Sonic 4 that is very similar but distinctly different.

The level design is probably the best works that Dimps has ever done on a Sonic game (Enemy placement as well... but that's not saying much). The most mentioned is probably the 2-3 instances in the game where they basically throw you at a line of Bubble robots and it's the equivalent of a QTE to react in time or take damage.

The levels have great high-medium-low path segmentation and opportunities to switch between. There is a little bit of 'oh this looks cool but as long as you hold forward in this one quasi scripted part, you will be fine' but for the most part there's a lot of gameplay involved in the levels.

The music isn't actually all that bad as Lost Labyrinth and Mad Gear are quite good but there are more than a few songs that just don't sound right. The composer sure likes to use very similar sounds in a song, that can then become a bit too busy when he ties them all together.

When it comes down to playing it, Sonic feels a little sluggish, but you're suppose to be making use of the air dash ability to compensate for that, so I'd say it's by design. Air Dash is basically a far more gameplay heavy,finicky, and versatile version of the boost button from Sonic Rush. It feels awkward at first but if you stick with it you'll be constantly using the air dash to maximum your trajectories to hit barely reachable platforms and repositioning Sonics jumps to get to that next part just a little bit faster. I like it and it works well with a heavier Sonic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbfqEavISbA

That's the thing about Sonic 4, it isn't the originals, although I'd say it's much more at home as Sonic 4 than as a Sonic Advance/Rush entry based on quality, thematic appropriateness, and level design (Even though level design is a fusion). If you're trying to play Sonic 4 like Sonic and Knuckles it just won't feel right and you'll wonder why the devs made some of the decisions they did, but you're suppose to take a look at the new abilities, like air dash, and try to use them properly. You don't even really notice the uncurling, or the lack of inertia once you get going fast.

Boss wise I really with that Robotnick was invincible when pulling out his second from for each encounter, and it would have been nice if some of his EGG Station boss mechanics were in the original boss levels themselves to increase the challenge.

tl,dr
The special stages are HARD. Fuck em!

7/10

I liked it a lot, but there's a lot of room for improvement.

At its core this is probably the best Sonic game that Dimps has ever made and is also possibly the best 2D retail Sonic game (if not 2D Sonic game period) since the classics (although not by a large amount as there are some outstanding fan efforts that people should check out, and I there's a small handful of Sonic fangames that are arguable better).

Sega1991 said:
I'm not saying that different is bad, though. Sonic Rush is not a bad game. The Sonic Rush physics are appropriate for the type of game they were designed for.

The problem rears its head when Sonic 4 tries to be "like the old games" in a physics engine that was not designed to appropriately handle that kind of level design. Hence, you homing attack a spring that takes you across a pit, and instinctively let go of the analog stick because, typically, even in the Sonic Rush games in which Sonic 4's physics engine is based upon, holding a direction after being sprung will usually make you overshoot/undershoot your destination.

Except that in this case, you're supposed to be holding the direction, otherwise you'll never make it far enough. The game makes zero indication that this is what is supposed to be happening, and Sonic stops moving, falls straight down, and dies.

That is bad design. Not just "different" design, but BAD.

The example you is more to do with Sonic 4 having the reverse rule in place. There are some rare instances of level design where they do have you overshoot (but you sometimes have the chance to recover via homing attack) if you hold down and some instances where not holding it down will kill you (even rarer), which is a bitch move.

The general rule of thumb for Sonic 4 is that you do hold down the button. This isn't a problem with designing the levels like the old games. They designed the environments with holding down in mind. If anything it's the title and thematic style of the worlds that are tripping you up to not hold the button down, not the level design or physics engine.
 

loosus

Banned
With the the ways are in this game, why even call it "Sonic"? I mean, the way it controls, it could be any platformer. The only thing that makes it Sonic is the fact that there's a blue hedgehog in it who collects rings.
 
Done two Areas so far and yeah :D

Sega1991 said:
Here's the thing, though: In Sonic 4 (and by relation, Sonic Rush), Sonic decelerates faster than he accelerates. To a certain degree, you can actually come to a stop faster by jumping in to the air and letting go of a direction than you can by actually stopping the way most people do it (by pressing the opposite direction on the d-pad, initiating a skid that's SUPPOSED to make it easier to come to a stop).

This doesn't happen in the classic Sonic games, Sonic accelerates and decelerates at roughly the same speeds while on the ground. In the air, Sonic's deceleration takes a hit, meaning he keeps far more of his pre-existing momentum regardless of what the player is doing with the controller. If Sonic is going forward, jumps, and the player lets go of the controller, he will continue going forward until he lands.

From a mental standpoint, that makes far more logical sense. For instance, Mario does this. So does just about any platformer worth playing. Having a character stop dead in mid-air and fall straight down just because you let go of a direction for half a second is awkward.

There is no need to re-invent the wheel here. There is a solution that works and is implemented in better games. And yet...

Completely agree with all of this though =/
 

Zen

Banned
loosus said:
With the the ways are in this game, why even call it "Sonic"? I mean, the way it controls, it could be any platformer. The only thing that makes it Sonic is the fact that there's a blue hedgehog in it who collects rings.

And the power ups, and the enemies, and how he runs (omg physics withstanding), and the guy he fights. If this wasn't Sonic 4 it would be called 'heavily inspired by Sonic the Hedgehog'.
 

Combichristoffersen

Combovers don't work when there is no hair
Anticitizen One said:
Why do people hate the music in this game? Other than Splash Hill zone and the fast portion of the boss theme I like it alot.

It's not bad, it's just not all that great either.

MiamiWesker said:
Excellent review. Though I disagree about the best level, I think Mad Gear levels were the best.

Agreed. Mad Gear 1 and 2 were great, while Mad Gear 3 was just awful.

And holy shit is the final boss Nintendo hard. I hit him 18 times just to get him to go into overload mode, and then hit him like 5 or 6 times after that before I died. Still haven't beaten him.
Sonic 4 sucks and it's not the game Sega promised us
 

loosus

Banned
Zen said:
And the power ups, and the enemies, and how he runs (omg physics withstanding), and the guy he fights. If this wasn't Sonic 4 it would be called 'heavily inspired by Sonic the Hedgehog'.
So yeah, everything except how the game plays.
 
Combichristoffersen said:
It's not bad, it's just not all that great either.



Agreed. Mad Gear 1 and 2 were great, while Mad Gear 3 was just awful.

And holy shit is the final boss Nintendo hard. I hit him 18 times just to get him to go into overload mode, and then hit him like 5 or 6 times after that before I died. Still haven't beaten him.
Sonic 4 sucks and it's not the game Sega promised us
I found the last boss very easy.

You can get 3 hits off at a time in his first mode by jumping deep, then holding towards him to drift back into another hit, then quickly doing the air dash again for a third hit. Wait for his arm to come up and go back down, then repeat.

In his over load form stay in the corner, when he does that dash skip either stay in the corner, get hit, and then recollect the rings while youre invincible or start up a spindash before he skips toward you from the opposite side and spindash under him when he's nearer and in mid skip. Stay in the opposite corner, and air dash attack the arms when the come down, Run towards him and you can get anywhere from 4-6 hits in on him at a time by the above method

When he berserks, that part sucks because you kind of have to guess where he'll land and hit him one final time or you auto-die.
 

btkadams

Member
I am an insane fan of sonic 1, 2, 3, and s&k. I've rebought them so many times in probably every format I could. I replay them every year.

Sonic 4 feels very different and plays different, but to me it is a true sequel despite some flaws. I'm glad its a bit different feeling because it feels to me like a natural difference of 15 years of video games. I've been enjoying it so much. Love this game! I can't wait for episode 2.


*ducks for cover*
 
btkadams said:
I am an insane fan of sonic 1, 2, 3, and s&k. I've rebought them so many times in probably every format I could. I replay them every year.

Sonic 4 feels very different and plays different, but to me it is a true sequel despite some flaws. I'm glad its a bit different feeling because it feels to me like a natural difference of 15 years of video games. I've been enjoying it so much. Love this game! I can't wait for episode 2.


*ducks for cover*

If they fix Sonic's acceleration and inertia, they'd be pretty close to hitting the sweet spot for me.

In addition, the level design is the best we've seen in a 2D Sonic since the Genesis classics in my opinion. I was quite surprised by the difficulty of the latter stages and the abundance of platforming. I find Sonic 4 most comparable to the original Sonic the Hedgehog in terms of level design.

I finished the game last night (haven't replayed a lot of the levels), but it's a B- for me so far. I think we're off to a good start with Episode 1.

After seeing the secret ending, I'm hoping we get some Sonic CD-esque music for Episode II. :D
 

vazel

Banned
Gravijah said:
There are people who believe that.
Classic Sonic diehards are like Scientologists. You can't believe the stuff they believe.

VsAgy.jpg
 

Roto13

Member
Iknos said:
Apparently some people can't read. Never change dude.



Except there is no momentum at all.



Do you even know what "momentum" means? You let off the throttle on your car...and your car keeps rolling. It doesn't just stop there.

Before calling Sonic 4 a "momentum-based platformer" read up on what "momentum" means.
Fine, I should have said it's a "speed-based platformer." When I think of the momentum-based gameplay of classic Sonic I think of the fact that you don't just push a boost button and zip up to max speed like in Sonic Rush or Unleashed.

Still doesn't make it a bad game.
 
Roto13 said:
Still doesn't make it a bad game.

It does if Sega's trying to claim the game is something that it is not. Seriously, you seem to be ignoring the fact that I am open to a "good" Sonic game that does not necessarily play like the old Genesis games do.

And I don't like Sonic 4. It's not the black-and-white "Best game ever vs. Worst game ever" that some may be claiming, but it's definitely not very good.
 

Nemo

Will Eat Your Children
Anticitizen One said:
Why do people hate the music in this game? Other than Splash Hill zone and the fast portion of the boss theme I like it alot.
Music is great. My favorite is the Lost Labyrinth theme

Great vibes all around the music tho, at least call that part of the game classic!
 

Alex Dee

Neo Member
I've been spending the last few weeks sick and cooped up inside my house, so I decided to get this the other day and see what all of the fuss was about. At first I absolutely despised it, the different physics just felt so wrong, but come Mad Gear I'd kind of adjusted to them.

In fact, Mad Gear was the only level I really liked at all and I think that's because it built itself more around the different engine rather than trying to simply be classic Sonic. Looking at the other levels however, it's clear what a hindrance the physics engine is and how it seems almost designed with the old way in mind. There was a half pipe part of Casino Street that I was stuck in for a few minutes, simply because Sonic couldn't build up the momentum to pass it.

Another issue for me is re-playability; since finishing it I've had no real desire to play any of it again. I've tried it once or twice, but it already seems stale. Such a shame, I love blasting through Sonic games on a whim (1, 2, 3&k, rush and advance mainly), but I can't see myself picking this one up again.

Least Mad Gear was fun for a bit.
 

Roto13

Member
Sega1991 said:
It does if Sega's trying to claim the game is something that it is not.
Nope. Sega is full of shit when they say this is supposed to be a Sonic 1-3 style game, but that doesn't mean it's a bad game. It's not what we were promised and that's lame on Sega's part, but the game itself is no worse for it than if they had been up front with what it was from the beginning and called it Sonic Digital or something instead of Sonic 4.
 
It's kinda ironic to see old-school fans putting out well thought out, meticulously detailed critiques while the new Sonic fans are going "lol at those old-school crazies they'll bitch for no real reason".
 

0 HP

Member
the soundtrack is pretty awesome...not as good as i remember the old games, but really cool. i like the faked retroness even. id rate it above nsmb
 

Blueblur1

Member
Roto13 said:
Nope. Sega is full of shit when they say this is supposed to be a Sonic 1-3 style game, but that doesn't mean it's a bad game. It's not what we were promised and that's lame on Sega's part, but the game itself is no worse for it than if they had been up front with what it was from the beginning and called it Sonic Digital or something instead of Sonic 4.
You're awfully persistent, aren't you?
 
Alex Dee said:
There was a half pipe part of Casino Street that I was stuck in for a few minutes, simply because Sonic couldn't build up the momentum to pass it.

I think all old Sonic fans got stuck there. Not for a few minutes but enough to realize this is nothing like 16-bit Sonic.
 
NonexistentK said:
It's kinda ironic to see old-school fans putting out well thought out, meticulously detailed critiques while the new Sonic fans are going "lol at those old-school crazies they'll bitch for no real reason".

It's nothing new, been going on for years and will continue forever.
 

Zen

Banned
This thread has plenty of well thought out comments from a lot of people, not just people who didn't like it. Whatever makes you feel better though, yeesh.

Sega1991 said:
It does if Sega's trying to claim the game is something that it is not. Seriously, you seem to be ignoring the fact that I am open to a "good" Sonic game that does not necessarily play like the old Genesis games do.

If you're into rating a games quality by means of how closely it matches the Pr statements that proceeded it, but that seems beside the point to the actual quality of the product.
 

btkadams

Member
NonexistentK said:
It's kinda ironic to see old-school fans putting out well thought out, meticulously detailed critiques while the new Sonic fans are going "lol at those old-school crazies they'll bitch for no real reason".
dude the whining is on both sides. both sides have also done very detailed critiques.

and you don't have to hate the game to be an old-school fan. a lot of old-school fans like the game.
 
MiamiWesker said:
I think all old Sonic fans got stuck there. Not for a few minutes but enough to realize this is nothing like 16-bit Sonic.

I got stuck in a few parts in that zone. Mainly because the spindash wasn't enough to go up the ramp, but with a bit of a headstart, Sonic can easily scale any ramp. Maybe it's intentional to have players focus on running, rather than spindashing for speed, I dunno.
 
I was actually doing a little experiment in this thread the whole time.

Humanity failed. Again.

/me pushes red button, garage door closes

ah fuck i lost the ultimate nullifier again galactus is going to be pissed
 

Gravijah

Member
Segata Sanshiro said:
I was actually doing a little experiment in this thread the whole time.

Humanity failed. Again.

/me pushes red button, garage door closes

ah fuck i lost the ultimate nullifier again galactus is going to be pissed

Galactus has a pretty hot daughter.

250px-Galacta_marvel_comics.jpg
 

RagnarokX

Member
Actually it's hard to describe how Sonic handles in terms of weight. A heavy object takes a long time to get going and a long time to stop. Sonic takes a long time to get going (not really THAT slowly compared to the classics) but stops instantly like he's lighter than air. But as long as you press forward and are not rolling Sonic will keep going no matter how steep the surface. He can even pick up speed jogging up a steep non-vertical slope.
 
So Sonic 4 isn't feeling like the crime against humanity that I thought it would be. It's still disappointing, largely due to the counter-intuitive physics, but my desire to systemically hunt down and incinerate each individual member of Dimps/ST has lessened somewhat. I've only finished Splash Hill though, so maybe that urge will resurface during the remaining 3 zones.
 

Combichristoffersen

Combovers don't work when there is no hair
A Huge Battleship said:
my desire to systemically hunt down and incinerate each individual member of Dimps/ST has lessened somewhat. I've only finished Splash Hill though, so maybe that urge will resurface during the remaining 3 zones.

Wait for Lost Labyrinth act 3 and Mad Gear act 3.
 

btkadams

Member
A Huge Battleship said:
So Sonic 4 isn't feeling like the crime against humanity that I thought it would be. It's still disappointing, largely due to the counter-intuitive physics, but my desire to systemically hunt down and incinerate each individual member of Dimps/ST has lessened somewhat. I've only finished Splash Hill though, so maybe that urge will resurface during the remaining 3 zones.
it gets really good when you replay the levels a lot and figure out the best routes. mastering the levels feels great. there are definitely frustrating moments on a first play through but memorization of levels and boss battles pays off and you won't even notice them again.
 
Segata Sanshiro said:
I was actually doing a little experiment in this thread the whole time.

Humanity failed. Again.

/me pushes red button, garage door closes

ah fuck i lost the ultimate nullifier again galactus is going to be pissed
The white clouds floating on the great blue sky
And the boiling red bloodshed in fierce gaming
Those who give up halfway through
Their battered bodies will never forget!
 
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