Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
Well, which of the original 2D Sonic games do you think has better backgrounds? I'm interested in what you think.
Sonic the Hedgehog Community Thread: Green Hills and Laughing Iizukas
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Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
Yeah, I'm leaning towards CD for the sake of looking fantastic in motion.
But Sonic 3 has some great background stuff. The foreground stuff is alright, but the backgrounds are very detailed.
Sonic & Knuckles' backgrounds being vibrant is a given.
But Sonic 3 has some great background stuff. The foreground stuff is alright, but the backgrounds are very detailed.
Sonic & Knuckles' backgrounds being vibrant is a given.
Seven Force
Banned
I think I'd go with Sonic 2. It reminds me of CD, but without the clutter.
Yeah, I was playing CD on my phone the other day and this hadn't even crossed my mind. Seeing that screen, on the other hand, was like "What the fu--oh"
Sonic 2 does look damn neat, always have liked the look of it.
But dem 3&K backgrounds...
ViewtifulJC
Banned
There's at least four or five completely different art assets making up the fore/middle/background of this thing, and none of them match up. And they're all ugly as hell
tiggerkiddo
Member
Agree to disagree...I found some of those color palletes to be an absolute pain to zip through...
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
That's the most hilarious part of that shot. It's like they threw a whole bunch of things in the sink and tried to put them together in a wonky way. TheCongressman1 tried to fix it.There's at least four or five completely different art assets making up the fore/middle/background of this thing, and none of them match up. And they're all ugly as hell
This is exactly what I had anticipated when they said they were making Sonic 4. Instead we get... well, that.
tiggerkiddo
Member
It's like an updated version of Green Hill Zone...I don't get it. I don't really see the giant screaming issues here.
Well I think they could add more mountains in the background but that's it.
Well I think they could add more mountains in the background but that's it.
Seven Force
Banned
I actually had to remember if Sonic Blast even had more than two background assets for a second. >_>
It looks really ugly and amateurish. It has that NSMB style of ugliess there but with really grainy and plastic tiles... none of it looks good.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Let me get this straight tigerkiddo
you love Chrono Cross, Spinball, AND Sonic 4
and dislike CD
edit: just googled Sonic Blast. What in the hell
you love Chrono Cross, Spinball, AND Sonic 4
and dislike CD
edit: just googled Sonic Blast. What in the hell
Shadow Hog
Member
Should I be grateful I have no idea what you're on about with this "five pillars of Final Fantasy" thing, considering Google has no idea either?
...I'm about to find out when I step into Gaming, aren't it.
...I'm about to find out when I step into Gaming, aren't it.
I beat it! Three times over, even.
...out of dozens of attempts.
tiggerkiddo
Member
Sonic Blast's art looks better than Sonic 4...you better post some comparison shots or something.
And I don't see what's wrong with liking Chrono Cross, Spinball and Sonic 4 Episode 1...=D
And I don't see what's wrong with liking Chrono Cross, Spinball and Sonic 4 Episode 1...=D
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
The problems with that screenshot include:
-Art direction
-Shading (grass looks plastic, shiny sheen being inconsistent)
-lighting on characters is just weird
-why does the grass have a shiny sheen when everything else doesn't (especially the ball)?
-neither Robotnik nor Sonic synch well with the lighting in that shot
-why is Robotnik so tiny compared to everything else?
-bushes don't match the pattern on the grass
-Sonic's head is huuuuge
-the foreground and background don't synch well and the background should be a little less focused
I like Chrono Cross on its own as a reference.
Read this nonsense.
And then I posted something really long that I'm sure no one read but I was really pissed about what they said and couldn't help it...
ViewtifulJC
Banned
I don't even understand...the lighting on Sonic or Robotnik in that picture in relation to the stage
I mean
it's like they were shopped in from another location >_>
I mean
it's like they were shopped in from another location >_>
But then you also have characters that actually matches with the game's looks.
Can't say the same to Sonic 4 Ep 1. It's just so disjointed.
(This isn't to say Sonic Blast looked good. It looks real awful.)
Shadow Hog
Member
Is it bad that whenever I think of Sonic Blast, I always imagine the Master System version, which is somehow even uglier?
So... am I to blame Squenix or Kotaku for the ignorant "gorgeous beauty only happened PS1-onward" comment?
Seven Force
Banned
Yeah, it looks shitty, but at least it's cohesively shitty.
Ep.1 is basically a bunch of pre rendered assets haphazardly slapped together. Kinda hilarious considering that neat (albeit a bit janky) sprite based PlaySega level creator came out around the same time as the Sonic 4 reveal.
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
How is that even possible?
SE said it themselves in this 4gamer story, particularly this bit: 「さらに切り口を変えたときに出てきたのが，「ゴージャスで美しい」「洗練」という単語で，とくに後者に関しては，FFシリーズが一貫して目指してきた「妥協しない」という部分にもつながっているとのこと.」 It does imply "later FF games" in there, edit: but doesn't say directly when or which.
Actually re-reading that, it seems like the Kotaku writer overreached and extended that to PS1-era FFs. So to answer: Both of them.
Shadow Hog
Member
16 color palette forces you to cut some corners. Removing colors from pre-rendered CG art, a style that even the less color-challenged console was struggling with. Brilliant plan.
Just look for yourself.
Which is weird, since frankly, I think even the first Final Fantasy looks pretty good for the system it's on. At any rate, I still like the look of it.
Sonic & Knuckles' backgrounds being vibrant is a given.
agh, unfiltered Sonic 3 screenshots. That game abused the hell out of CRT blending, and doesn't look right without it:
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
Well, I couldn't find any others that had the parts I wanted. -_-
(DQ1 and Phantasy Star)
Compared to those, this:
...didn't look as nice. I'm... shallow. >.>
Wow. This is just weird.
I never liked how the first FF looked, but that's because I played these before it:
(DQ1 and Phantasy Star)
Compared to those, this:
...didn't look as nice. I'm... shallow. >.>
tiggerkiddo
Member
So do you guys really hate the other levels of Sonic 4 or are you just gonna go after the first one?
AND hatred for unfiltered Sonic levels? What, they look much better in sharpness...augh!
AND hatred for unfiltered Sonic levels? What, they look much better in sharpness...augh!
Seven Force
Banned
Huh, never saw the JP boxart for Blast before.
I hate just about everything about Ep.1, really. Never played Ep.2 beyond the demo so I can't comment on that.
Splash Hill is just a perfect example. The other levels look better but they still have some of the same issues I had with Splash Hill. Their backgrounds are at least better... but man those foregrounds.
Episode 2 on the other hand though looks fine.
In all fairness, Sonic 3 & Knuckles' looks were only made for CRT in mind, hence all of the dithering and whatnot (so that they blend and create artificial colors... if that's the right way to word it). Not to say I'm agreeing with him. I'm not a fan of that filtered snapshot. I'm too used to sharp images that it doesn't bug me.
Shadow Hog
Member
A lot of late-generation Genesis games are guilty of that, actually. Ristar, notably, has a lot of vertical banding-style gradients that don't work without the Genesis's shitty composite.agh, unfiltered Sonic 3 screenshots. That game abused the hell out of CRT blending, and doesn't look right without it:
But seeing as even Sega was pushing out ports of these things with clean pixels to the PC in the mid-90s (and the Saturn, if we count Jam), I can't say as it fazes me in this particular case. Plus, I dunno, I rather like clean pixel art (says the guy who spent $80 on a Genesis with an S-Video mod just to keep those pixels relatively clean...).
I tend to think more of the overworld graphics, which I recall were about as bright-colored as the Dragon Quest shot you posted.
Phantasy Star definitely looks like it's on a whole 'nother level, though. The Master System could really kick the NES's butt when it wanted to, graphically.
The fact Generations' interface was based on that is a really nice touch.
Usually I'm a proponent of the "pixels so sharp you can cut yourself on them" camp, but the 16-bit Sonic games were absolutely, indisputably not designed to be viewed with perfect clarity. You lose out on a ton of color depth and a bunch of translucency effects without some blending going on.
edit2: scratch that
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
Post a shot. Someone will probably say something about it, lol. It really is how most of the foregrounds look, lighting, proportions, etc. It isn't just limited to Splash Hill.
Yeah, Sonic 4: Episode 2's backgrounds and foregrounds don't bother me as much.
Would it be bad that I prefer the shade of green used for the overworld/battle for DQ than the one used for FF1?
It's just strange because that FF1 shade is close to the FF4 shade which I like a lot.
I can't help but to love how detailed the battle backgrounds are:
I miss Sega consoles. :|
Seven Force
Banned
I'm having one hell of a hard time finding S-Video cables for Saturn. All Stars Transformed finally pushed me to replace my old, broken Saturn so I could play some Panzer Dragoon (and maybe Sonic Jam, if I can get a copy of that since my old one is broken.) and finding some under $90 is proving to be somewhat of a hassle. :/ I'm determined to get them, though, I want to have the best possible video quality.
tiggerkiddo
Member
That blending really makes it look worse, kinda hard on the eyes even.
I don't think that image is exactly accurate of how the game would look on CRT though. Looks like a really bad emulator filter.
Then again I haven't touched my CRT TV in a while.
It's Kega's RF and Filter settings working in tandem. Kind of blurry, admittedly. There's a nice NTSC filter for Gens that comes out a bit cleaner, but they're both comparable to what I get on my actual TV.
edit: Apparently I still have a bunch of screencaps of the latter sitting around from when this subject came up a year ago:
GHZ: Clean/Filtered
MZ: Clean/Filtered
EHZ: Clean/Filtered
CPZ: Clean/Filtered
AIZ: Clean/Filtered
HZ: Clean/Filtered
FBZ: Clean/Filtered
SZ: Clean/Filtered
There's definitely a tradeoff involved, but I think you gain more than you lose. It's a fascinating bit of artistry that you just don't see in modern pixel art.
Shadow Hog
Member
I just picked some up off of Racketboy for like $10, alongside some S-Video cables for my SNES, N64 and PS2. They work well, although I've heard the isolated case where the Saturn one has the pins wired incorrectly and produces bizarre images - IIRC the cable was replaced in that situation.
Kega has the best NTSC filter for the Genesis I've seen pretty much anywhere, but IIRC it's separated from the actual emulator download for some stupid reason. Eidolon's Inn has the goods; DL that and then you'll get "MD NTSC (blargg)" under the "Plugins" section. Won't need "Filter" for it, scanlines are up to you.
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
Well... talking about pixel sharpness in here, which filter did everyone use for the Taxman version of Sonic CD?
I'm kinda curious now. I think I've gotten too used to sharpness as well without thinking of blending half the time.
I'm kinda curious now. I think I've gotten too used to sharpness as well without thinking of blending half the time.
Shadow Hog
Member
The one that keeps everything 1:1 pixels, IIRC.
The others just apply a 2xSaI filter (or something, not sure what filter specifically) - one option to the individual art assets, the other option to the resulting screen before rendering it to the TV. Neither reflect the NTSC artifacts the game art was designed around.
Looks better than the other filter but I always prefer clean!
@Dark Schala: I go with whatever mode was it that keeps the pixels as sharp as possible.
Yeah, that's the one. Didn't realize Kega supported it.
agh, unfiltered Sonic 3 screenshots. That game abused the hell out of CRT blending, and doesn't look right without it:
That blur makes me want to throw up.
To be fair, I don't think the Mega Drive games have really great tiles in general. The characters look awesome, but the tiles are pretty mediocre. Nice colours, bad pixel work.
Overall, the Sonic Advance series has much better pixel art.
Disgusting.
Delicious.
tiggerkiddo
Member
Sonic Advance was nice but it's art was nowhere close to the Genesis did pixel work. Those backgrounds in Sonic games are still easily recognizable and STILL look good to this day. I like Advance but I'm sorry but we'll remember the Genesis games more for their awesome pixel work.
Come on now...Leaf Storm? Hot Crater?! Techno Base?! Angel Island? Egg Rocket?! It took them 3 entries to finally get some somewhat decent backgrounds and those can't hold a candle to the weakest Genesis games.
I like a bunch of the Mega Drive stuff, but I feel that sometimes it's just being too abstract and noisy. The Sonic Advance series has art that reads way better, and I feel the general shape of things is also much nicer and clearer.
But what the hell do I know about pixel art, right?
[EDIT] I think Leaf Forest (Storm was the Sonic Rush zone) looks awesome. It's has a classic Sonic look with some abstract shapes, but stays perfectly clear and readable. This goes for a lot of the zones in the Sonic Advance games. It's a great balance between crazy, abstract shapes and good readability for the player.
Also, how is Leaf Forest any different from something like Green Hill Zone? It being a cliché Sonic level (like most of the Advance stages, I'll give you that) has nothing to do with the art not being top notch.
But what the hell do I know about pixel art, right?
[EDIT] I think Leaf Forest (Storm was the Sonic Rush zone) looks awesome. It's has a classic Sonic look with some abstract shapes, but stays perfectly clear and readable. This goes for a lot of the zones in the Sonic Advance games. It's a great balance between crazy, abstract shapes and good readability for the player.
Also, how is Leaf Forest any different from something like Green Hill Zone? It being a cliché Sonic level (like most of the Advance stages, I'll give you that) has nothing to do with the art not being top notch.
tiggerkiddo
Member
Wait wait wait wait...what is so abstract about levels like Marble Zone? Starlight Zone? Emerald Hill? Casino Night?
You're comparing stages like that to Leaf Forest, which is full of a bunch of geometric colored shapes, Sunset Hill which is like an updated version of Green Hill Zone...Techno Base is nothing but computer circuits. Music Plant...what isn't abstract about that?
Casino Night is based off Vegas...what's so abstract about a real city? Chemical Plant resembles an actual metropolitan city. Starlight Zone is a city underneath a starlit sky. Scrap Brain resembles a factory area you might see away from an actual city. How abscract!
You're comparing stages like that to Leaf Forest, which is full of a bunch of geometric colored shapes, Sunset Hill which is like an updated version of Green Hill Zone...Techno Base is nothing but computer circuits. Music Plant...what isn't abstract about that?
Casino Night is based off Vegas...what's so abstract about a real city? Chemical Plant resembles an actual metropolitan city. Starlight Zone is a city underneath a starlit sky. Scrap Brain resembles a factory area you might see away from an actual city. How abscract!
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