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[Felessan]

So, basically. It is as many had feared. A Sony with 0 competition is bad for the consumers.

There are a competition even if MS and Nintendo would drop from the market completely. There is a PC, mobile and other form of entertainment besides gaming which does compete for money and time.
Sony for sure would like to sell consoles cheaper if it could, as it earns massive chunk of money from software and additional services (mtx, psn, peripherals) and expanding ecosystem auditory means expanding this income flows.
It's just profit from non-hardware doesn't justify price drop, 100$ extra loss on 20 mil sold consoles will put GNS in red (their OI is around 1.5 bil), and Sony want to reasonably expand with some profit retained, and not just recklessly subside auditory growth.

 

[Jaybe]

Wonder if next quarter will be up for hardware with EA College Football, Black Myth Wukong, Star Wars Outlaws, and Astrobot coming out July to Sept. plus the usual sports games. Heard EA College Football sold big, and Black Myth is the top wishlisted game on Steam, so should do well on console. Hope Sony brings a big showcase in September to share 2025 plans.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

You are more or less completely right, there is 0 competition but also the state of the industry and economics plays in massively. They cant even afford to lower the price on the PS5 due to component costs, and they are still making losses on the hardware. A ps5 pro at $499 dollars is a pipe dream unless SOny literally throws money in the bin!

I was pleasantly surprised to see that hardware costs were not mentioned in their earnings report.

There is a good chance that they're at break even now, which means they have a bit more flexibility.

I still expect a 600 dollar PS5 Pro. If we were going to see a 500 dollar Pro and a 400 dollar base, they would have forecast more than 18 million units for the year.

 

[jm89]

Their monthly active users for unqiue accounts on PSN is 116 million.

That's quite impressive, their total playstation userbase when combining ps4 and ps5 is around that mau value, so it shows a really high attach rate with console usage.

 

[DenchDeckard]

I was pleasantly surprised to see that hardware costs were not mentioned in their earnings report.

There is a good chance that they're at break even now, which means they have a bit more flexibility.

I still expect a 600 dollar PS5 Pro. If we were going to see a 500 dollar Pro and a 400 dollar base, they would have forecast more than 18 million units for the year.

WHy would they be at break even? TSMC has been putting their prices up, not reducing them. The BOM on memory and NVME may have dropped a touch but silicone is pretty crazy.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

WHy would they be at break even? TSMC has been putting their prices up, not reducing them. The BOM on memory and NVME may have dropped a touch but silicone is pretty crazy.

That's not the only cost associated with the PS5.

They did not mention hardware losses in their most recent quarterly report, which was a first in a very long time.

 

[PixelatedBeast]

Their monthly active users for unqiue accounts on PSN is 116 million.

That's quite impressive, their total playstation userbase when combining ps4 and ps5 is around that mau value, so it shows a really high attach rate with console usage.

Yeah, its very good considering its closed hardware. Especially when you consider steam has an MAU count of 132 million. I thought their numbers would be much higher. Sony is doing good, the industry is just a in a slow period from the majority AAA devs.

https://backlinko.com/steam-users

 

[{insert code here}]

Gonna be tough for them to get to 100M with Switch 2 coming soon and the Xbox Firestick finally, after 15 years, appears to have a steady stream of content starting in a few months. They gonna need more than Concord and Fairgame if they want to keep selling 500$ consoles.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

showcase when? price cut when? first party when? pro when?

We haven't seen Sony firing on all cylinders after the mega fuck up with GaaS.

Hermen and the other dude have a big challenge ahead of them.

 

[Topher]

Total sales up, hardware down YOY

Gonna be tough for them to get to 100M with Switch 2 coming soon and the Xbox Firestick finally,

Sarcasm?

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Yeah, its very good considering its closed hardware. Especially when you consider steam has an MAU count of 132 million. I thought their numbers would be much higher. Sony is doing good, the industry is just a in a slow period from the majority AAA devs.

https://backlinko.com/steam-users

By the end of the generation, console is going to be considerably more profitable than PC. PC had way better longevity than consoles historically, but that's starting not to be the case anymore especially for the cost.

There is going to be a much smoother transition from PS5 to PS6 than there was for PS4 to PS5 and certainly from PS3 to PS4.

PlayStation as a Platform is going to be a reality for really the first time fully. You saw a lot of it with PS4 cross gen games, this will be even more the reality with PS6.

It not longer makes sense to make AAA games exclusive for a new generation of hardware. Especially when from a design perspective games can be made scalable now and from a hardware engagement perspective, it benefits the hardware manufacturer if someone is active on older hardware rather than having to take massive losses selling new hardware at a loss.

That's why the PS5 Pro is so important because the PS6 may be considerably more delayed and considerably more expensive upfront.

 

[bender]

Their monthly active users for unqiue accounts on PSN is 116 million.

That's quite impressive, their total playstation userbase when combining ps4 and ps5 is around that mau value, so it shows a really high attach rate with console usage.

It's why cross-generation, and maybe cross-cross-generation (PS4-PS5-PS6), is here to stay. Even if your development costs aren't through the roof, it just makes more sense to sell to an audience of 100+ million rather than targeting a specific platform especially if that platform is new to the market.

 

[nial]

Gonna be tough for them to get to 100M with Switch 2 coming soon and the Xbox Firestick finally, after 15 years, appears to have a steady stream of content starting in a few months. They gonna need more than Concord and Fairgame if they want to keep selling 500$ consoles.

Trolls gonna need more than Concord and Fairgame$ if they want to keep trolling in PS5 threads.
I know it's pretty exciting to have the first Sony GAAS bomb, but these kind of takes are getting tiring at this point. I hope you guys aren't afraid to go to the Astro Bot review thread a week after Concord's launch.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

Increasing active users is one key for growth, but average revenue per user (ARPU) is more important in context. This is why PlayStation has managed to make 18% more revenue than Xbox this last quarter ($5.9bn vs $5bn) despite having having 77% or 4.3x less MAU (116m vs 500m).

Is this...true? PS had more revenue this past quarter than Xbox even after acquiring bethesda, activision and blizzard altogether, plus their own studios? This can't be true right?

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

This can't be true right?

I have no evidence, but I have no doubts either. but I think this is can be right.

my logic is simple


Xbox (Xbox game studios+GP+ hardware)
no games, no growth, consoles are in free fall.

+
Zenimax...
Their ongoing games don't make that much money and no new releases

+
ABK... As far as I know ABK was/is not as big as play station + no new release


Play Station is the console leader, it's ecosystem encourages people to buy games and they had a consisten cadence of exclusive* games.


so, in other words: Xbox is a dead weight, Bethesda is a mid publisher and ABK alone as big as they are, can't make up for the other two

 

[pasterpl]

Is this...true? PS had more revenue this past quarter than Xbox even after acquiring bethesda, activision and blizzard altogether, plus their own studios? This can't be true right?

1.Compare the install base of both consoles.
2.Then remember about Gamepass
3. Wait for the next 2 quarter results (to not be surprised, when some new AAA games are released that are being developed by these studios)

In addition, funny thing, as now, out of nowhere people are using MS CEO 500m MAU number and accepting it. Funny how that changes.

 

[PixelatedBeast]

Is this...true? PS had more revenue this past quarter than Xbox even after acquiring bethesda, activision and blizzard altogether, plus their own studios? This can't be true right?

Who knows, but I wouldnt second guess it. Playstation is a global platform, where as Xbox is only popular in NA. They're a real entertainement company. Microsoft is just doing this for a hobby.

 

[Felessan]

Is this...true? PS had more revenue this past quarter than Xbox even after acquiring bethesda, activision and blizzard altogether, plus their own studios? This can't be true right?

What surprising in it?
Sony was bigger than MS+ATVI combined. And their revenue went up, while MS+ATVI revenue went down.
Besides, comparing something to 500m "MAU" is a joke (it's not even a proper MAU as people double, triple and maybe even quadruple counted in this number)

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

1.Compare the install base of both consoles.
2.Then remember about Gamepass
3. Wait for the next 2 quarter results (to not be surprised, when some new AAA games are released that are being developed by these studios)

In addition, funny thing, as now, out of nowhere people are using MS CEO 500m MAU number and accepting it. Funny how that changes.

Who knows, but I wouldnt second guess it. Playstation is a global platform, where as Xbox is only popular in NA. They're a real entertainement company. Microsoft is just doing this for a hobby.

Xbox is not just a console. You guys need to remember all xbox games are released on pc day one. Talking about the install base of both consoles only of course means nothing. They own some of the biggest mobile games like Candy Crush. That’s why that after spending you know…almost 80 billion in all these acquisitions i thought they would be better than a company that earns almost everything from their console.

 

[pasterpl]

Xbox is not just a console. You guys need to remember all xbox games are released on pc day one. Talking about the install base of both consoles only of course means nothing. They own some of the biggest mobile games like Candy Crush. That’s why that after spending you know…almost 80 billion in all these acquisitions i thought they would be better than a company that earns almost everything from their console.

Let’s wait for them to release the new COD.

 

[John Wick]

Xbox series is selling terribly tho, series s being no exception, so it shouldnt be benchmark to aim for

Yeah but it puts into reality the figures. The Series S is much cheaper to produce. It depends on how much profit MS is making on every unit? And how much Sony is willing to lose on every unit?

 

[mayham2199]

Let’s wait for them to release the new COD.

I really wonder how bad ABK revenue will be hit since COD is on GP. COD is pretty much the best selling game every year I wonder if being on GP will change that.

 

[pasterpl]

I really wonder how bad ABK revenue will be hit since COD is on GP. COD is pretty much the best selling game every year I wonder if being on GP will change that.

They will probably do what they did with some titles - buy deluxe version week before it officially launches to sell some copies. They sold quite a lot of Forza horizon 5 with this approach. In addition, ps5 is bigger console platform for COD more consoles, more sales. Probably they are going to lose approx 200m-300m usd because of the gamepass, but might gain a lot of new subscribers, especially on PC so final number might not be that affected.

 

[StereoVsn]

WHy would they be at break even? TSMC has been putting their prices up, not reducing them. The BOM on memory and NVME may have dropped a touch but silicone is pretty crazy.

Prices are up on new nodes, not 6nm.

 

[PeteBull]

I really wonder how bad ABK revenue will be hit since COD is on GP. COD is pretty much the best selling game every year I wonder if being on GP will change that.

Logically speaking those lost sales will be just pc and xbox players, so maybe 25-30% at max, 70% were playstation players so ofc they will get hit but not crazy hard, sales wise, i would say 15m+ copies sold still yearly.

 

[AncientOrigin]

I was pleasantly surprised to see that hardware costs were not mentioned in their earnings report.

There is a good chance that they're at break even now, which means they have a bit more flexibility.

I still expect a 600 dollar PS5 Pro. If we were going to see a 500 dollar Pro and a 400 dollar base, they would have forecast more than 18 million units for the year.

They Are not at Break even from where cones this nonsense.They make big profits of a console.PS5 is ancient tech by now and Sony gets cheapest best deals because they sell so much.The base PS5 costs Sony to make no more than 299 dollars everyone who thinks it’s more expensive should let their brains check

 

[Woopah]

They Are not at Break even from where cones this nonsense.They make big profits of a console.PS5 is ancient tech by now and Sony gets cheapest best deals because they sell so much.The base PS5 costs Sony to make no more than 299 dollars everyone who thinks it’s more expensive should let their brains check

What are you basing this on?

 

[AncientOrigin]

What are you basing this on?

Of normal logic thinking.Gpus Phones electronics in general are very cheap to make an iPhone to make cost 200-350 maybe it costs 1300 because apple wants to make big money.A Levi’s jeans costs 5 dollars to make not even that it costs 70 because levis wants to make big money.The PS4 was also dirt cheap for Sony.The case of the PS5 is 10 cents every small component is a few dollars max fan is 1-3 dollar amd gets for the cpu tou combo 150 ram is probably 40-70 ssd drive is 30-60 power adapter is 10-20 shipping per unit 5-7 dollars manufacturing costs per unit 15-30 of course guesses but you get the idea.max it cost 350 to make or should not be more expensive.So I googled for the ps4 at release they estimated the cost 380 the ps4 sold for 399 but the costs come down with volume and over time and with slimmer models.After 4 years ps5 must be around 300-350 maybe 380 but that’s it

 

[asdasdasdbb]

They Are not at Break even from where cones this nonsense.

Sony's financial report?

 

[jroc74]

Of normal logic thinking.Gpus Phones electronics in general are very cheap to make an iPhone to make cost 200-350 maybe it costs 1300 because apple wants to make big money.A Levi’s jeans costs 5 dollars to make not even that it costs 70 because levis wants to make big money.The PS4 was also dirt cheap for Sony.The case of the PS5 is 10 cents every small component is a few dollars max fan is 1-3 dollar amd gets for the cpu tou combo 150 ram is probably 40-70 ssd drive is 30-60 power adapter is 10-20 shipping per unit 5-7 dollars manufacturing costs per unit 15-30 of course guesses but you get the idea.max it cost 350 to make or should not be more expensive.So I googled for the ps4 at release they estimated the cost 380 the ps4 sold for 399 but the costs come down with volume and over time and with slimmer models.After 4 years ps5 must be around 300-350 maybe 380 but that’s it

There is no way in hell the PS5 is/was cheaper to make than the PS4. Or that much cheaper.

And we had actual Bill of Materials leaks for last gen.

 

[Fafalada]

Besides, comparing something to 500m "MAU" is a joke (it's not even a proper MAU as people double, triple and maybe even quadruple counted in this number)

I don't think it's double counting - they just include mobile users in the number now (CC alone is several hundred millions AUs).
Whether that's even a relevant metric is another matter.

There is no way in hell the PS5 is/was cheaper to make than the PS4.

Hard to say with price dynamics of recent years - but PS5 is built for price scaling much better than PS4 was (no HDD or now optical drive to weigh it down - which are among components that are least price scalable).

 

[Woopah]

Of normal logic thinking.Gpus Phones electronics in general are very cheap to make an iPhone to make cost 200-350 maybe it costs 1300 because apple wants to make big money.A Levi’s jeans costs 5 dollars to make not even that it costs 70 because levis wants to make big money.The PS4 was also dirt cheap for Sony.The case of the PS5 is 10 cents every small component is a few dollars max fan is 1-3 dollar amd gets for the cpu tou combo 150 ram is probably 40-70 ssd drive is 30-60 power adapter is 10-20 shipping per unit 5-7 dollars manufacturing costs per unit 15-30 of course guesses but you get the idea.max it cost 350 to make or should not be more expensive.So I googled for the ps4 at release they estimated the cost 380 the ps4 sold for 399 but the costs come down with volume and over time and with slimmer models.After 4 years ps5 must be around 300-350 maybe 380 but that’s it

Well in the last fiscal year Sony was making losses on PS5 hardware when they did price promotions, and I don't remember seeing those prices go as low as $299. So i would say the cost must be 350 at a minimum, but probably higher than that.

 

[Three]

I don't think it's double counting - they just include mobile users in the number now (CC alone is several hundred millions AUs).
Whether that's even a relevant metric is another matter.


Hard to say with price dynamics of recent years - but PS5 is built for price scaling much better than PS4 was (no HDD or now optical drive to weigh it down - which are among components that are least price scalable).

I understand what you're saying in terms of price movement but i think instead it contributed to a greater loss at the beginning of the gen trying to maintain $399 rather than better profits later. It was significantly more expensive.

 

[Fafalada]

I understand what you're saying in terms of price movement but i think instead it contributed to a greater loss at the beginning of the gen trying to maintain $399 rather than better profits later. It was significantly more expensive.

I think that's consumer pricing per TB - not necessarily reflecting the full extent of price scaling realities.
Ie. fixed HDDs don't scale with price the way this chart would indicate - over the lifespan of XBox, or PS360 - HDD was the one component that stayed practically flat for almost their entire lifespan (not even accounting for capacity increases) - one of the main reasons why PS360 never really broke 199$ barrier, and og. Xbox lost money for its entire time on the market (it arguably got worse as they never released a refresh with a larger HDD).

 

[Three]

I think that's consumer pricing per TB - not necessarily reflecting the full extent of price scaling realities.
Ie. fixed HDDs don't scale with price the way this chart would indicate - over the lifespan of XBox, or PS360 - HDD was the one component that stayed practically flat for almost their entire lifespan (not even accounting for capacity increases) - one of the main reasons why PS360 never really broke 199$ barrier, and og. Xbox lost money for its entire time on the market (it arguably got worse as they never released a refresh with a larger HDD).

For PS3 I agree that's why it never got lower because it was something like 27% of the cost but prices dropped at a fast rate for PS3. I remember BOM halved for PS3 in 2yrs since launch. 360 didn't include it in most models sold and tried to charge an arm and a leg for one.

While margins are higher for consumer pricing the proportional decrease isn't that different (may even be a greater decline for wholesale) because the end product was the exact same so it had an overlapping market. You would just have to shift the HDD line further down but keep the gradients largely the same. The SSD was costly just like the HDD was though and probably even more so. If you look at PS4 launch the cost per 1 TB was roughly $36, at PS5 launch 1TB of SSD storage was more than $50. Both consoles launched with a $399 pricetag though.

 

[Fafalada]

For PS3 I agree that's why it never got lower because it was something like 27% of the cost but prices dropped at a fast rate for PS3. I remember BOM halved for PS3 in 2yrs since launch.

True - though PS3 started really high, and they saved like 150$ off of dropping PS2 components alone. Either way it was things like the HDD that set their bottom of the scaling - it's why the SSD PS3 was eventually introduced as lowest cost option, but that came in too late to go anywhere.

360 didn't include it in most models sold and tried to charge an arm and a leg for one.

Yea MS learned their lesson from first Xbox the hard way. They did eventually switch to a 4GB storage model, but yea that also held on to the price.

The SSD was costly just like the HDD was though and probably even more so. If you look at PS4 launch the cost per 1 TB was roughly $36, at PS5 launch 1TB of SSD storage was more than $50.

That's the part that is harder to gauge IMO. PS5 didn't source SSDs, everything but the flash-chips is Sony produced, including the controller. It'd be akin to sourcing only HDD platters for PS3 and then assemble the rest themselves. How exactly that impacts the pricing I don't know - but it's probably non-linear with consumer market where all drives are competing directly with each other.
Also may partly explain why Series X was deemed more lossy for MS - they do use an actual retail drive in the box.

 

[Felessan]

I don't think it's double counting - they just include mobile users in the number now (CC alone is several hundred millions AUs).
Whether that's even a relevant metric is another matter.

Think better.
They added ATVI MAU split (Activision/Blizzard/King) to their GP number. Separately.
So anyone who have GP and plays Diablo, Cod and clash of Kings are quadruple counted.
I doubt that even ATVI have any idea how much their Activision, Blizzard and King MAU intersect between themselves (they all have separate accounts), so they report them separately as to not artificially inflate numbers.
But MS wanted to have a good number, so this obscurity didnt stop them to straight add numbers together.

 

[xiskza]

Alarming that digital is already at 80%, its highest ever.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Alarming that digital is already at 80%, its highest ever.

And yet people still want to focus on famitsu sales charts that don't include digital...

 

[kazuyamishima]

And yet people still want to focus on famitsu sales charts that don't include digital...

That’s mostly in the NintendoBase forum.

But I doubt that digital sales in Japan are as close as for example the UK.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

That’s mostly in the NintendoBase forum.

But I doubt that digital sales in Japan are as close as for example the UK.

If it is 80 percent across the board, there is no reason to believe that Japan is significantly more or less than that.

People have said for sometime that Digital on PS5 makes way more sense (especially since you have the PS5 digital as well) and digital doesn't work very well on the Switch due to its low storage.

This gives an overinflated sense of dominance in Japan (not to suggest it isn't at all dominant there), but now how Famitsu suggests.

 

[Three]

I doubt that even ATVI have any idea how much their Activision, Blizzard and King MAU intersect between themselves (they all have separate accounts), so they report them separately as to not artificially inflate numbers.
But MS wanted to have a good number, so this obscurity didnt stop them to straight add numbers together.

They started to make people sign up with phone numbers so they probably do.

 

[Klosshufvud]

Alarming that digital is already at 80%, its highest ever.

F2P digital only games and DLC highly inflate those numbers. For regular boxed games, I doubt the ratio is that hard skewed.

 

[Celine]

And yet people still want to focus on famitsu sales charts that don't include digital...

Double up the PS5 line (50% digital ratio, average digital in Japan surely is below 80%) and you still have underwhelming PS5 software sales in Japan for software with a retail release:

 

[Mibu no ookami]

average digital in Japan surely is below 80%

What are you basing that on? "Surely" because otherwise it doesn't fit your narrative...

You're also ignoring that so much of software sales are represented by F2P games now. Ignoring the Genshin Impacts of the industry is another folly in your narrative.

 

[Celine]

What are you basing that on? "Surely" because otherwise it doesn't fit your narrative...

If you want to believe to fairy tales then go on.

You're also ignoring that so much of software sales are represented by F2P games now. Ignoring the Genshin Impacts of the industry is another folly in your narrative.

I'm not ingoring anything.
What I stated is that PS5 software with a retail release (that's what's discussed in Famitsu charts) total sales in Japan are underwhelming, even when including digital.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

If you want to believe to fairy tales then go on.

This isn't actually a response. You've made a statement, based it on no facts, and said it has to be true.

If global sales are 80% digital, why would Japan be significantly lower? Please, explain it to me.

I'm not ingoring anything.
What I stated is that PS5 software with a retail release total sales in Japan were underwhelming, even when including digital.

That's not at all what you said.

What you said is that digital is 50% because your narrative is that the sales have to be underwhelming. Whenever you start your analysis at the end and work backwards, you set yourself up for failure.

One of the best selling games in Japan is Genshin Impact. It's numbers aren't going to show up in any retail chart.

In fact, if you go to the Japanese PSN store, do you see any of those games on the famitsu chart?

Powerful pro baseball which was #1 on the chart for Japan (switch last week) is not even close to being #1 on PSN. Every game ahead of it is F2P...

 

[Woopah]

One of the best selling games in Japan is Genshin Impact. It's numbers aren't going to show up in any retail chart.

In fact, if you go to the Japanese PSN store, do you see any of those games on the famitsu chart?

Powerful pro baseball which was #1 on the chart for Japan (switch last week) is not even close to being #1 on PSN. Every game ahead of it is F2P...

Genshin will have downloads but it doesn't have sales in the tradional sense, hence why the f2p games often have their own seperate charts for PSN (or at least they do for the monthly charts).

The Pro Baseball game can't tell us anything about PS5 software sales since it didn't release on PS5. There is a seperate PS5 baseball game coming soon that will be interesting to follow.

But Celine is right that total PS5 software sales would be low in Japan even if you apply a very high digital ratio. Hence why I believe that f2p games are an important factor driving PS5 sales in the country.

 

[Woopah]

F2P digital only games and DLC highly inflate those numbers. For regular boxed games, I doubt the ratio is that hard skewed.

That ratio includes digital only games but not DLC or F2P.

The ratio for individual games is impacted a lot by age and genre. So for example JRPGs and single player action games have lower ratios than online shooters. Or if a game gets deep digital discounts, it's digital ratio will increase.

 

[64bitbros]

Software sells hardware. How about some software Sony? Its been crickets for years now. It would be nice to have something to look forward to you know. That sells consoles too.