Sony Totoki COO: "A big problem of SIE is they don't have a deep understanding of how their work is being translated to growth
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Sony was like this all this time:
"We doing great guys. I'm just not sure what we doing, but it worked it out well enough so far."
I remember that classic quote by Shuhei where they couldn't understand why the ps4 was selling so well. Lol
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
So he is playing the victim because he made an honest list of why he doesn't like the playstation this gen?
Your opinion is valid and his opinion is valid. If you love the ps5 that's cool, his points aren't less valid to him though because of that and I don't think a user should be attacked for thinking differently. I mean, the points he makes are valid.
My ps5 was worth it for returnal, demons souls. Ffvii integrade, ragnarok, spider man 2 and miles morales. That's all I've played this gen but I don't mind laying down the money for it.
We are all third party now. Let's all just be henry cavill pc memes.
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DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
You're not paying attention.
"Their consumers"
"fans massively exaggerating all negative aspects of the competition"
"The people"
He's talking about the PlayStation owners and the "people who exaggerate all negative aspects of the competition."
I don't know HOW this translates to me being upset that he prefers Xbox. The point is that how he feels about the console doesn't mean the consumers feel the same way.
I replied to him by saying, "It's funny how Xbox gamers can find a million things wrong with PlayStation but defend Microsoft's poor output for nearly a decade." I was responding to his point about fans massively exaggerating all negative aspects of the competition. I said he makes excuses - he's going to say everything is exaggerating when it's not.
If he's talking about the fans (not just him) then it's going beyond his personal opinion.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
When people consider the profitability of Sony, they really have no idea what sony is spending their money on.
They rarely cite R&D costs in their financial reports.
I'm more confident than ever that the PS handheld is a real thing and that we're going to see it sooner rather than later i.e. 2026 at the latest, but more likely 2025.
I think Project Q is probably that full fledged handheld, where the q lite was remote play and eventually streaming with the full Project Q having those same capabilities but with local play as well.
I think a handheld will really go to boost their margins if it is sold for profit and it boosts software sales. There are all sorts of variations they could do for PS Portal. I don't think they created PS Link just for PS Portal. Hopefully the PS5 Pro will have link built in, but obviously a handheld would.
Digital only, digital and physical via memory card, oled vs lcd.
The biggest question is price. I'd guess between 400-500 dollars depending on the sku.
They rarely cite R&D costs in their financial reports.
I'm more confident than ever that the PS handheld is a real thing and that we're going to see it sooner rather than later i.e. 2026 at the latest, but more likely 2025.
I think Project Q is probably that full fledged handheld, where the q lite was remote play and eventually streaming with the full Project Q having those same capabilities but with local play as well.
I think a handheld will really go to boost their margins if it is sold for profit and it boosts software sales. There are all sorts of variations they could do for PS Portal. I don't think they created PS Link just for PS Portal. Hopefully the PS5 Pro will have link built in, but obviously a handheld would.
Digital only, digital and physical via memory card, oled vs lcd.
The biggest question is price. I'd guess between 400-500 dollars depending on the sku.
tomato shrub
Member
tbh the industry got too big and hence overtaken by CEO types who dont actually care for the thing they are selling. I see things like Valve's recent Half Life documentary, where you see the old industry, where passionate nerds made games for nerds and kids... then you fast forward to now, CEOs fighting over monopolies, dev teams consisting of culture warriors from Twitter..
We have to go back. Or look at what companies like Capcom did to come back - making great games, ignore stupid trends, be efficient.
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Cyberpunkd
Member
Man, it looks like with all that shit Xbox is completely demolishing Playstation this gen! Let me check...
ByWatterson
Member
ReBurn
Gold Member
The thing is that they didn't manage the growth well and the model is unsustainable. If something happened tomorrow and third party games disappeared Sony couldn't afford run the PlayStation business on the revenue from their in-house games alone. There would be little money for investment to fund development for games that require a wait of 5 or 6 years to see ROI. Sure, the big games pay for themselves in the end, but what pays for the next game? Right now it's the 30% they're earning from COD and EA Sports and small developers who get games out the door more quickly that supports the development of Naughty Dog's next big masterpiece. Microsoft's gaming division has to be in a similar spot. They've just had the protection of the mothership and the cash hoard.
The growth of the platform holders should have been more horizontal, resulting in more first party games that take a year or two to make alongside some big once in a generation tentpole games, but it actually resulted in fewer first party games overall and only games that take 3 times as long and more than 3 times as much to create.
Now the business side has to take action to reign in production costs and timelines and put constraints in place to position the business for long term success. Ultimately the business is selling product in the form of games and they need to get more of it out the door faster. Right now Sony is doing this by buying games from other studios and putting the PlayStation logo on them. Microsoft is just buying all of the studios. But even that's not going to be sustainable, which is why both Sony and Microsoft are potentially looking at getting their own games in the hands of more people by putting them on other platforms.
IAmRei
Member
It's a me, i sometimes switching between PC and consoles, at now i have only medium low laptop given in 2020, and currently i own ps5 and switch, i got old steamdeck, and again, the only access for me is using consoles for AAA or return to pc for old games because i couldnt upgrade my pc yet. For me, consoles are cheaper options for now.
TheDreadLord
Member
Sony's profitability is pretty low compared to the revenue. In fact, it's been on a decline for a couple year and it was the lowest ever past quarter.
Dr. Wilkinson
Member
Oh good Lord. Maybe people who wished Ryan out should've been careful what they wish for.
Look, it's not rocket science. Make attractive devices that people want to own, and make enticing proprietary software that lures people to buy your hardware. The Nintendo method clearly works as well now as it did in 1985. They've literally never been more profitable than they are now, during the Switch generation.
Look, it's not rocket science. Make attractive devices that people want to own, and make enticing proprietary software that lures people to buy your hardware. The Nintendo method clearly works as well now as it did in 1985. They've literally never been more profitable than they are now, during the Switch generation.
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twilo99
Member
Right, but it makes no sense considering the enormous install base. Why do all the hard work and get millions of people to use your ecosystem but not capitalize fully...
They need to look at Apple and see how they turn so many of their iOS devices into money making little machines.
Punished Miku
Gaslighter Pro: 16.7 Fireflops
Man, it looks like with all that shit Xbox is completely demolishing Playstation this gen! Let me check...
Negotiator101
Member
Well the industry is suffering, next up Nintendo.
Gambit2483
Member
More AA games, less GAAS games.
Whatever happened to their AA games funding and supporting the development of their AAA games?
Whatever happened to their AA games funding and supporting the development of their AAA games?
TheDreadLord
Member
It is more a financial thing. In summary, Sony profitability is so low that when borrowing money, investors consider other lower risk investment options such as national debt certificates. Also, Sony revenue is quite OK, so they need to improve their financial efficiency to be in a more comfortable situation.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
The only AA games that work anymore are GAAS games. See: Helldivers 2
AA single player has been bombing for years now.
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yurinka
Member
Sony posted record numbers, they aren't doomed. And don't plan to go third party on console (outside Bungie and MLB).
They'll releaase some of their games on PC or mobile, not all. Something they have been doing since the mobile games existed and sincce they started making games in the '80s.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Sony studios do have issues; the canary in the coalmine being Insomniac who are simply way more efficient than anyone else.
Their example is objectively what needs to be emulated group-wide, especially as the Playstation brand as a whole is doing so well with things like the TLOU show building cross-media attention.
We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that despite their solid run of success, Sony's internal operations are far from perfect, and frankly they wouldn't look nearly so good if the competition wasn't so shockingly poor.
Lets be real, Xbox under Booty and Spencer has been a shit-show for over a decade. Given the talent and resources they have, they've barely shown up to compete.
Their example is objectively what needs to be emulated group-wide, especially as the Playstation brand as a whole is doing so well with things like the TLOU show building cross-media attention.
We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that despite their solid run of success, Sony's internal operations are far from perfect, and frankly they wouldn't look nearly so good if the competition wasn't so shockingly poor.
Lets be real, Xbox under Booty and Spencer has been a shit-show for over a decade. Given the talent and resources they have, they've barely shown up to compete.
PropellerEar
Member
Hero of Spielberg
Member
I find this a very strange thing for a CEO / COO to be saying publicly. I mean if I'm at SIE management I'd be looking over my shoulder… suggesting that your division doesn't understand development and profit / growth. Strong words.
StreetsofBeige
Member
Given how things are in media lately (games, tv shows, movies), I dont think a lot of them understand profit or growth either. Nor completing things on time and within budget. But when tech rocketed up last 5 years where big tech companies are hiring 30% more people and gaming revenue zoomed up during covid, it was one of those things where as long as the gravy train keeps arriving at union station, who cares about due diligence about finances. Post covid comes along, loan rates triple, gaming drops down as everyone is back to work and outside and now they are fucked as they over did it.
It's like a person buying a house. In normal times and rates they can reasonably afford X. When rates drop so their mortgage can get approved for more, people amp up buying bigger and more expensive home Y. Then when things go sour they are fucked because they overextended themselves being greedy. Thats why when rates are dropping or super low, you rarely hear about homeowners going broke with foreclosures and companies in dire debt crisis. But when it goes the other way, it's panic time.
They just release whatever they think is cool or a comic book rehash and assume it sells. Tech companies and divisions should count their lucky ass stars that only in the past year have companies cracked the whip with layoffs as they look deep into the corporate finances and finally notice what overhiring and overbudgeting theyve done. If there's one thing about some industries like techie stuff.... they sure seem to have unlimited budgets. It seems no game or movie has anyone keeping ballooning resources used under check....until recently. For example, that thread about Immortals of Aveum. How that game cost $125M to make who knows.
My company has done fine the past 5 years. And for a lot companies, it involves more complex stuf like manufacturing, shipping in trucks and worst of all shipping and ports across oceans. Read up on shipping container and trucking costs and shortages during covid to get an idea. Somehow we survived all within budget and new products still made, shipped and sold on time. And ya, my entire company had two years WFH too, so you lose that face to face interaction. Reason why it was pretty smooth sailing is because there's more controls in place.
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Aces High
Member
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
Well....errr I disagree.
There is a lot more going on with Spiderman 2, its an important IP considering it can open the door for Sony to get other contracts with Marvel for license and Insomniac is easily one of the best AAA teams in gaming.
If they want that turnaround time that this team is known for, they need to get them what they need to get it out with quality and in time.
So this is one of the few areas, I'd got to disagree with you based on how massive that IP is, all the functions of that title and the pedigree and quality of that team. So we just can't compare Ghost Of Tsushima to Spider Man 2
(Shiiiiiit for all we know, Ghost Of Tsushima's 2's budget is much larger then the first)
Keep in mind, Sucker Punch is hiring more for that sequel currently...
So I agree that not every game needs to be Game Of The generation budget
But not every Sony title is getting that budget cause not every Sony game made by a team like this, with an IP like this etc.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
I mean there is a reason why no one has been named the successor to Jim Ryan yet.
You look at small examples like Gran Turismo 7 not hitting PC yet or the delays and quality issues with TLOU PC port... these are things that massively impact growth and margin.
SIE and Microsoft look at companies like ABK and T2... releasing on other platforms can massively expand the reach of your games. It's free money. These companies have far greater margins without the royalties you get from 3rd party software sales, why is that? Because their games reach millions of more people.
SIE is probably the best publisher in the world right now, but their margins don't reflect that at all and just imagine how bad these margins would have been had they avoided crossgen games. How well could Demon's Souls have done with the PS4 userbase, even if it had loading times and reduced resolution.
Elden Ring hit 5 platforms, Hogwarts Legacy hit 6. Spider-Man 2 hit 1.
MLB The Show 23 was the 14th best selling game of the year... FOURTEENTH... It sold more than FF16 and Street Fighter 6.
If Spider-Man 2 released on Switch and PC, maybe it sells more than Call of Duty and Madden. Sony probably left somewhere along the lines of 700 million in revenue on the table for a game that they pay through the nose in licensing for.
Sony needs to triple down on PC this year. But think about this. Let's say you sold 5 million units on Steam.
You've got to pay up to 12.60 per game to Marvel. That's 18 percent. A majority of the revenue from steam is going to be hit at 20% rates. That's another 14 dollars. That's 26.60 from 70. That's 43.4 dollars per copy. That means you're going to get 217 million dollars.
That's nothing to sneeze at, but it's a far cry from 350 million dollars and it'll be even worse on Switch.
If you're Sony, doesn't it make sense to throw billions into a PC storefront, try to generate revenue from games you don't develop, and keep the revenue of your own games? It makes sense to buy FromSoftware/Kadokawa and make Elden Ring 2 exclusive to your storefront on PC.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
I think if Wolverine ends up costing as much as Spider-Man 2, they're in for a bit of a rude awakening.
The biggest problem with Spider-Man and Wolverine is just the amount of mouths you have to feed with Marvel, Valve, Epic e.t.c.
Sony desperately needs to reduce the amount of mouths.
Totoki knows that Sony Pictures is too small to compete with the other big studios. He knows that SIE needs to grow to be more sustainable like Nintendo, drastically increase cash flow.
Yes it does, unfurtonately Steam presents the same problem. It's a pretty big investment and goes against 20 years of Steam libraries. I sitll think if Steam could be bought, it would have been better than Activision. Without their own viable store front, they give too much to Vavle. That's a long term battle, that might be too late to win. But more PC please.
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Mibu no ookami
Banned
While Steam libraries certainly generate revenue, I'm willing to bet that the majority of revenue is generated from new releases.
Releases that Sony can leverage their console position against and in some cases pay for exclusivity now that they won't have to worry about Xbox as much.
Gabe isn't selling Steam, but I don't think Steam is the fortress people make it out to be. Unlike consoles, you can have multiple storefronts on PC. If Sony can deliver an ecosystem on PC that is better than Steam i.e. trophies, PS exclusives, 3rd party exclusives, cheaper prices, cross save, e.t.c. They have a decent chance at success.
Not everyone has been on Steam for 20 years. My nephew literally just got his first gaming pc this year and played his first game on Steam. You know what he doesn't care about? Is what storefront he plays his games.
The Epic Game Store would probably be more successful if Epic could afford more exclusivity but they can't. I could see a consortium of Epic, Disney, and Sony transform the Epic Game Store into a competitor as well.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
Everything that you said was predictably naive and based.
Don't work backward from your conclusions.
Crayon
Member
That's what instinct is. I did it perfect.
The artful mincer
Member
Crunch was the issue. Longterm crunch is always counterproductive.
Insomniac is the studio with the least crunch and most productive
Mibu no ookami
Banned
No you, you didn't.
What's wrong with Naughty Dog? They released a game in 2020. They've since released 2 ports, a remake, and a remaster? Why? Because they're high-margin products and tie in with their successful transmedia strategy.
Your random inference that this is all about a lack of crunch is really out of left field.
As for randomly finding success in asian studios, this goes further to your randomness and your clear agenda in thinking that somehow western games are suffering from something that eastern games aren't, which is hilarious given how gaming has gone the last 15-20 years.
Varteras
Member
Mibu no ookami
Sorry if you already spoke on this, but do you think some of Sony's bigger studios should create smaller teams that make games with faster schedules and lower budgets to try and offset the issues with these bigger games, or does that just create new problems? Are there better solutions?
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Crayon
Member
Holy crap, man. You make me want to quit running Sony.
Hero of Spielberg
Member
Good post. I wonder with that freedom of budget and creativity, do you think we've observed the 'peak' of big budget game production or it was mostly wasted and more pressure from on devs to deliver n time / budget will produce better quality games?
Mibu no ookami
Banned
So I think that makes sense in specific situations, but we already have an issue with too many games on the market. Even really great games are struggling to make an impact due to crowding. So releasing more games even cheaper ones, doesn't necessarily help you out.
I think releasing on PC and mobile is the better ultimate solution to expand margins rather than to make more games and to diversify the portfolio. This is where Insomniac is taking on a great deal of risk by doing Wolverine and X-Men. These games absolutely have to be on PC sooner rather than later.
I think Sony may need to spend a lot more money to make better margins. For example, I think there will be serious layoffs at Turn10 Studios. They are already down 4% headcount in the last 6 months according to linkedin. I think it would be smart for Polyphony Digital to expand and recruit some of the staff from Turn10, get GT7 on PC as quickly as possible, and then obtain licensing when available for WRC, F1, Nascar to release seasonal DLC and to release a Tourist Trophy DLC as well. Combining all of that with a return of GT Academy on Netflix or something and you make Gran Turismo the defacto name in racing across the board.
So I think the real answer is smart expansion and focus on growth opportunities.
You look at MLB The Show and they're missing international support that they could obtain by branding the game as the World Baseball Classic editions in specific regions and putting their players on the covers for those regions. They have a chance to do this in 2026, we'll see if they take that opportunity. WBC is one of the biggest things in Japan and it's a really easy thing to expand and market.
Varteras
Member
So you think Sony needs to speed up the process for porting to PC and mobile? At least for some games? What would Sony do, if anything, to maintain the console as the focal point of their business? Is that even in their best interest long term?
Mibu no ookami
Banned
As much FUD and doom and gloom as there is, the console market is still the healthiest most profitable market outside of being the owners of the apple and google play stores.
Expanding to PC quickly with sufficient marketing is going to help near term margins drastically. PSVR2 should get PC support this year.
Gran Turismo 7, Demon's Souls, Bloodborne, MLB The Show should all hit PC this year, but it's probably too late for MLB The Show. In addition to that you need to time the release of God of War Ragnarok on PC with the God of War TV series, but we haven't even heard about a cast let alone this going into production. We're more than a year out, so the timing is already screwed up on this. The same is true for the Horizon show.
What does Sony have to do to maintain the console as the focal point? Not much. Not everyone wants to play on PC and mobile. People want their consoles and that form factor. So many people like to pretend like we're just a handful of PC titles away from people jumping to PC. People like to play video games in their living rooms, not many people have their PCs connected to their TVs nor do they want that.
You look at expanding the PS5 platform to handheld and that will greatly extend the life of the PS5 and when Sony shifts to PS6 it'll be a more natural shift.
If I was Eric Lempel, I'd be creating a presentation for Totoki that would show hundreds of ways that SIE can generate better margins than they do today, without laying anyone off, on the contrary, they need to hire a lot more people. Just look at the fact that we don't have real folders on PS5 and instead we have this makeshift folder. Sony has a lack of software engineers that can quickly take the demands of consumers and turn them into reality.
January 15th, Telsa got some really negative PR about their vehicles in the cold, now some of this was warranted but most of it was FUD. They've just released an update essentially less than a month later addressing a number of things. One month later...
Mibu no ookami
Banned
Here is a quick list of high-margin activities SIE could take, some of it short-term, medium-term, or long-term
- Create a PS5 Handheld with a similar form factor of PS Portal
- Either allow it to play PS5 games or allow it to play its own game and then allow a discount for cross-buy.
- For pricing sell a couple of different SKUs
- OLED + Physical
- LCD + Digital only
- Enable Cloud Streaming on PS Portal allowing you to stream PS+ Premium games and your game library
- Create PS Store on PC
- Sell first-party games exclusively via PS Store
- Enable cross-game saves and cross trophies
- Enable PS+ on PC, Mac, and Mobile
- Add Crunchyroll to PS+ Premium (combining these two services would get a lot of anime fans to move to a paid tier and also ensure they game on PlayStation)
- Enable PSVR2 to support PC
- Port all first-party PSVR2 games to PC Store (this changes the economy on creating PSVR titles)
- Encourage the porting of 3rd party PSVR2 games to PC Store (this changes the economy on creating PSVR titles and encourages more support)
- Create Everybody's Golf/Hot Shots Golf VR and promote it as a potential cost-effective Golf Simulator.
- Create and monetize PS Home/PS Home VR
- Gran Turismo 7 PC Port
- Gran Turismo DLC (when licensing becomes available) for WRC, Nascar, F1, MotoGP
- Recruit Turn10 staff
- Partner with Nissan and Netflix to recreate GT Academy
- Port MLB The Show to PC
- Create MLB The Show World Baseball Classic Edition in 2026 promoting it in all WBC regions with region-specific cover athletes
- Create Dual Sense and Covers for specific Athletes and Celebrities and cross-promote similar to what they did with LeBron James
- Release an updated version of Sing Star with a Taylor Swift Dual Sense and PS Cover for example
- Remaster Bloodborne for PS5 and PC
- Create a bundled version with Demon's Souls for PC
- Better promote PS Link by including in 2025 versions of PS5 Slim, PS5 Handheld, and PS5 Pro
- Buy FromSoftware/Kadokawa and release Elden Ring 2 exclusively on PS5 and PS PC Storefront
- Have them work on a follow-up to Bloodborne
- Focus GaaS strategy on key franchises that are appropriate for multiplayer
- SOCOM in the vein of Rainbox Six Siege
- Remaster Killzones 1-3 and Resistance 1-3
- Remaster Warhawk
- Remaster Twisted Metal 1/2 and/or Black
- Sunset Overdrive
- Remake God of War 1-3 with the engine from God of War Ragnarok
- Remake Uncharted 1-3
- Recruit staff from Toys for Bob and have them work on a Jak and Daxter game in tandem with a Jak and Daxter animated movie
- Have them take over the Ratchet and Clank franchise
- Have them bring back Sly Cooper
- Transmedia tie ins for all
- Release PS Store App for iOS and Android
- Put Helldivers 2 on PS+ in 6-12 months, convert it to a more monetized format
- Release a high-end Audeze headset in line with the Maxwell with ANC for ~300-400 USD
- Release Spider-Man on Switch and eventually Spider-Man 2 on Switch
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
Sir, this is why you are one of my favorite posters on here.
Read everything, enjoy the layout and your reasoning.
A solid read.
I do have a question though lol
Do you mean like Switch 2? Like Spiderman 1 and 2 releasing on it?
Also, a Sunset Overdrive remaster could open the door for a sequel of enough buy it, but it would likely be a PS6 type thing considering the leaks and all.
Regardless, as a businessman myself, I really enjoy the structure of this in terms of a theory of how they can do short term and long term.
edit. and I love the idea of a GT Academy reality series on Netflix (Sorta like that Madden reality show that use to exist lol) some of ya'll too young for that refence though lol
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Mibu no ookami
Banned
I'd do Spider-Man 1 on Switch and Spider-Man 2 on Switch 2.
I'm not sure you could do a simple remaster or not or what clauses Microsoft has for rights for the original, but turning it into a GaaS type game could yield strong results.
kyussman
Member
They don't understand how their business grows.......
Infamous Second Son
Bloodborne
The Last Guardian
Horizon Zero Dawn
Gravity Rush 2
Shadow of the Colossus
Uncharted 4
Spider-Man
God of War
Death Stranding
Days Gone
Ghost of Tsushima
TLoU II..........a large number of high quality interesting exclusive games,they seemed to understand this last gen and did rather well.
Infamous Second Son
Bloodborne
The Last Guardian
Horizon Zero Dawn
Gravity Rush 2
Shadow of the Colossus
Uncharted 4
Spider-Man
God of War
Death Stranding
Days Gone
Ghost of Tsushima
TLoU II..........a large number of high quality interesting exclusive games,they seemed to understand this last gen and did rather well.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
You look at the response Disney's received from X-Men 97 after 3 decades...
You stay true to this older stuff and a lot of people will come back and they'll show their kids and kids will jump in for curiosity.
If I were them, I would have re-animated the entire series, but this is a decent shot too.
Disney needs goodwill like this and most companies do actually.
You stay true to this older stuff and a lot of people will come back and they'll show their kids and kids will jump in for curiosity.
If I were them, I would have re-animated the entire series, but this is a decent shot too.
Disney needs goodwill like this and most companies do actually.
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
intheinbetween
Member
I agree the industry is currently in a tough situation: Embracer, Square-Enix, Bamco, Microsoft, ... and according to this report Sony isn't really that healthy as most of us thought they were, however Nintendo is driving its business in a different way, being more conservative than its competitors while investing the appropriate budget for each release in order to recoup benefits, from my view it's a smarter take than Sony's and Microsoft's. Nintendo has shown you don't need next-gen visuals to sell millions of hardware and software, just release appealing titles to your customers from a more traditional take on gaming.
I don't think Nintendo will be affected by the actions taken by MS or Sony because of not meeting their expectations, after all the higher the budgets for developing cinematic AAA titles, the less will be the profit because no matter how many units you sell if the profit margin is between 5-10%, so the only options would be either raising prices or reaching new customers on other platforms.
Delicate situation in my opinion.
StreetsofBeige
Member
Who knows. But in the OT section, I remember someone posting about how She Hulk TV show could cost up to $25M per episode. I think it was that show. Then someone said 8 episodes is like the cost of a Marvel movie. Crazy.
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LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
The Friday Night Kareoke budget will be axed.