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Spring Anime 2015 |OT| The Disappearance of YEAARRT!

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Oregairu/SNAFU Season 2, Arc 1 - Hina Ebina, Yaoi Master

I don't understand why Yui and Yukino are all upset at the end of this. He makes a fake confession for no one's benefit other than Tobe (since everyone else of relevance knows what's up) and Tobe's not even all that mad about it.

Then Yukino gives him some shit and then Yui gets all tearful and pissed. I'd like to think its deeper than "Hachiman's harem lol" but it doesn't make any sense otherwise and I've seen too much anime to really believe its deeper, really. Hachiman's reputation isn't ruined at all and Yui knows he's faking it. So what's she pissed about? The only thing I can guess is she's mad that he made that confession and upset her since she's secretly in love with him. Except its not like this is something she made explicit at any time, so what's she mad about?

There's a couple of reasons the girls are upset with him. 1) They actually care about him as a friend and they dont like to see him get hurt and throw himself under the bus for others. 2) They (at least Yui) like him so watching him confess to another girl, even though its not real, is uncomfortable. More of 1) than the latter. 3) There's some stuff about Yukino, status quos, lying and such that this post can better explain than I can.

Watch episode 12 from S1, it's a good refresher.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
They just hate how hachiman can only solve problem by making himself the villain. Which keep alienating himself from normal life more and more.

Yeah, but he's not *really* the villain - its basically just Tobe who doesn't know what's up (since Hina knows what's up and Miura isn't even here, not that any of them should care what Miura thinks) and Tobe isn't even really mad, he's just too dumb to figure it out.

Frankly, the popular kids are dumb for not figuring this out on their own anyways. Like, all they had to do was tell him that Hina wasn't down, which any of them could have figured out in like 8 seconds.
 

RurouniZel

Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
Oregairu/SNAFU Season 2, Arc 1 - Hina Ebina, Yaoi Master

I don't understand why Yui and Yukino are all upset at the end of this. He makes a fake confession for no one's benefit other than Tobe (since everyone else of relevance knows what's up) and Tobe's not even all that mad about it.

Then Yukino gives him some shit and then Yui gets all tearful and pissed. I'd like to think its deeper than "Hachiman's harem lol" but it doesn't make any sense otherwise and I've seen too much anime to really believe its deeper, really. Hachiman's reputation isn't ruined at all and Yui knows he's faking it. So what's she pissed about? The only thing I can guess is she's mad that he made that confession and upset her since she's secretly in love with him. Except its not like this is something she made explicit at any time, so what's she mad about?

No one likes to watch a dear friend hurt themselves over and over, even if it does help others in the short term. Even if Hachiman doesn't realize it, he is hurting himself and it doesn't have to be that way.

Both of them realize, like his little sister does as well, that past that cynical and off-putting personality lies a good person and it pains them to see him continue to vilify himself to help others.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
No one likes to watch a dear friend hurt themselves over and over, even if it does help others in the short term. Even if Hachiman doesn't realize it, he is hurting himself and it doesn't have to be that way.

Both of them realize, like his little sister does as well, that past that cynical and off-putting personality lies a good person and it pains them to see him continue to vilify himself to help others.

The problem is that it isn't really hurting him in any way. The only people he really cares about (at school at least) are Yui and Yukino anyways and they already know what he's doing and why.

It comes off more like they're just hot for him given they (as other members of the Service Club) could have just told Tobe at any given point that Hina wasn't down. Its kind of a consequence of having semi-legitimate teenage angst coupled with anime behavior.
 
Yeah, but he's not *really* the villain - its basically just Tobe who doesn't know what's up (since Hina knows what's up and Miura isn't even here, not that any of them should care what Miura thinks) and Tobe isn't even really mad, he's just too dumb to figure it out.

Frankly, the popular kids are dumb for not figuring this out on their own anyways. Like, all they had to do was tell him that Hina wasn't down, which any of them could have figured out in like 8 seconds.

Thats the reason Hayama came to the Service Club in the first place. I think everyone except for Tobe knew that Hina wasn't down but if he went through with it and got rejected, it would make things awkward and ruin the group dynamic. Hayama wanted things to stay the same and tried to convince Tobe to not confess but he wouldnt change his mind.
 
Anyway, what are some of Harem Anime's that are actually good?
so far I've seen:
Campione!
Saekano
SAO (lol)
Mind block, I know there are more I've seen as well.

To Love Ru
Highschool DxD
Kore wa Zombie
Infinite Stratos S1 (S2 is shit)

Last one crosses the "so bad, it's actually good" line
 

RurouniZel

Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
The problem is that it isn't really hurting him in any way. The only people he really cares about (at school at least) are Yui and Yukino anyways and they already know what he's doing and why.

It comes off more like they're just hot for him given they (as other members of the Service Club) could have just told Tobe at any given point that Hina wasn't down. Its kind of a consequence of having semi-legitimate teenage angst coupled with anime behavior.

Hayama is angry with him as well for similar reasons. Even if Hachiman isn't actually hurting himself, they perceive that he is, and there are little clues to suggest that he's trying to convince himself of something that isn't entirely true. It's more like he wants it to be true, but I have a feeling it isn't.
 
Yeah not many here liked it because it started off really good in S1, then got really really dark. S2 has been all backstory, but it's been really good stuff. You're right though
seeing his old abusive father come back and having to shoot him was like goddam. I really hope he did it...

Something about the cinematic 21:9 ratio makes the show look slick as heck lol. As for your last point I don't think it'll be that easy. I think Yuuji is going to have to face his demons this season. Also, let's not forget his
sister.
I'm pretty sure that all that character building in the previous season and the OVA wasn't for nothing.
 
I feel like I'm in the wrong career path as an engineer. My true calling is making bad opening lines for negative anime reviews.

"Gurren Lagann? The anime should be named Gurren Laganna make me barf. 1/10"
 

kiunchbb

www.dictionary.com
Yeah, but he's not *really* the villain - its basically just Tobe who doesn't know what's up (since Hina knows what's up and Miura isn't even here, not that any of them should care what Miura thinks) and Tobe isn't even really mad, he's just too dumb to figure it out.

Frankly, the popular kids are dumb for not figuring this out on their own anyways. Like, all they had to do was tell him that Hina wasn't down, which any of them could have figured out in like 8 seconds.

I think they are not really angry with the result, they are angry with the method that hachiman used. Especially after what happened at the culture festivals.
 
I feel like I'm in the wrong career path as an engineer. My true calling is making bad opening lines for negative anime reviews.

"Gurren Lagann? The anime should be named Gurren Laganna make me barf. 1/10"

Baccano? More like BAKA NO!
Serial Experiments Lain? more like Serial Experiments LAME shitsux
Bartender? More like BOREtender
 
Baccano? More like BAKA NO!
Serial Experiments Lain? more like Serial Experiments LAME shitsux
Bartender? More like BOREtender

There's a bright future ahead of us. We could be making up to 5K a year.
Can someone put a legit argument as to why they would think Gurren Lagann is a bad show?

This should be entertaining.

I didn't know it was disliked by as many here until recently.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
It's awesome to see that I'm not the only one watching this. Call it tacky, cheap, overdramatic, I don't care, I am really digging the series. Season 1 went to some dark places here and there but season 2 is only 4 episodes in and is already knee deep into dark territory. If the last episode is anything to go by, matters are only going to get worse lol.


LOL.

A friend of mine's husband got her to watch this and she got SO mad at him. She described it as "panties flying off" and "graphic cat death."
 

Cornbread78

Member
Something about the cinematic 21:9 ratio makes the show look slick as heck lol. As for your last point I don't think it'll be that easy. I think Yuuji is going to have to face his demons this season. Also, let's not forget his
sister.
I'm pretty sure that all that character building in the previous season and the OVA wasn't for nothing.


Well, he does have a
girlfriend
to go home to now as long as she is still on board after reading his backstory, plus he does have some loose ends back at the house. Yeah, good stuff ahead for sure.
 
Can someone put a legit argument as to why they would think Gurren Lagann is a bad show?

This should be entertaining.

I can understand some people disliking Gurren Lagann. Mecha battles with crazy over-the-top action and hotblooded characters just isn't for everybody.

But to say it's a terrible show? You're gonna need evidence to back up that claim.
 
Can someone put a legit argument as to why they would think Gurren Lagann is a bad show?

This should be entertaining.

It's been about eight years since I saw it, so I can't really speak to all of the specific details of the show, but I just dislike Imaishi's style in general. I don't care for the constant "everything is up to eleven" antics, and just how "extreme" everything is, with constant shouting and everything being noisy. I prefer things that are a little less over the top in general, with more nuanced characters and quieter moments for everything to breath. The characters in the show never felt like anything more than shallow tropes who existed solely to play out predefined parts and scream a lot.

I get why people like it, and it's probably not the worst show ever made, but the style of the show just doesn't appeal to me on any level, and the tone of the show is really in your face about everything. It's nice that people like it, and I'm not going to tell anyone that they shouldn't like the show just because I didn't, but maybe they could be a little less extreme in how they act like the show is the manliest thing ever and that anyone who dislikes it has something wrong with them.
 

Jarmel

Banned
It's been about eight years since I saw it, so I can't really speak to all of the specific details of the show, but I just dislike Imaishi's style in general. I don't care for the constant "everything is up to eleven" antics, and just how "extreme" everything is, with constant shouting and everything being noisy. I prefer things that are a little less over the top in general, with more nuanced characters and quieter moments for everything to breath. The characters in the show never felt like anything more than shallow tropes who existed solely to play out predefined parts and scream a lot.

I get why people like it, and it's probably not the worst show ever made, but the style of the show just doesn't appeal to me on any level, and the tone of the show is really in your face about everything. It's nice that people like it, and I'm not going to tell anyone that they shouldn't like the show just because I didn't, but maybe they could be a little less extreme in how they act like the show is the manliest thing ever and that anyone who dislikes it has something wrong with them.

Now if we're talking about Imaishi in general, that's a whole separate story. Something I've come to terms with in the past few months/years is that I don't like Imaishi as a director. Restraint is not in his dictionary. Many of his contemporaries are able to dial stuff up to 11 while still retaining some level of either subtletely or reality.

That said, Gurren Lagann is by far his most reigned in work. By far. That seems to be due to other staff on the project such as Otsuka being more 'involved'. Kill La Kill never slowed down like Gurren Lagann did during Simon's depression, Rossiu's shit, or the Anti-Spiral stuff. Much of TTGL is spent on actual character development with many action sequences serving to flesh out the characters.

Gurren Lagann certainly has flaws that could be pointed out but they're totally insignificant compared to what the show not only strived for but also accomplished.
 

Cornbread78

Member
Can someone put a legit argument as to why they would think Gurren Lagann is a bad show?

This should be entertaining.

Well,
he should have gotten the girl at the end dammit, but no, he got denied by the universe and she went away, ot was bullshit man Nia was great And he deserved a woman to keep past the wedding..

Damn anime clichés,
not giving him a happy ending, lol.
 
A friend of mine's husband got her to watch this and she got SO mad at him. She described it as "panties flying off" and "graphic cat death."
"No alive animals have been warmed while shooting this episode"

Well, he does have a
girlfriend
to go home to now as long as she is still on board after reading his backstory, plus he does have some loose ends back at the house. Yeah, good stuff ahead for sure.
Well if it's any indication, the 3rd season is also greenlit so here's hoping that it is true aha.
 

striferser

Huge Nickleback Fan
I feel like I'm in the wrong career path as an engineer. My true calling is making bad opening lines for negative anime reviews.

"Gurren Lagann? The anime should be named Gurren Laganna make me barf. 1/10"

"Mushihi? You mean Mushyshit?"
"Kill la kill made me ill la ill"


Note: what i wrote did not reflect what i really think about the series.

Danmachi 6

Lily backstory is sad still not a good reason to almost got Bell killed.
Boy, that adventurer that using Lily is the very definiton of prick and/or cunt.
 

Jarmel

Banned
Well,
he should have gotten the girl at the end dammit, but no, he got denied by the universe and she went away, ot was bullshit man Nia was great And he deserved a woman to keep past the wedding..

Damn anime clichés,
not giving him a happy ending, lol.

Fuck I should have asked Nakashima about the ending back at AX last year and why they went that route. Damn it.

They've probably commented on that in some interview somewhere though.
 
Well,
he should have gotten the girl at the end dammit, but no, he got denied by the universe and she went away, ot was bullshit man Nia was great And he deserved a woman to keep past the wedding..

Damn anime clichés,
not giving him a happy ending, lol.

I think it would have been more of a cliche to give him his happy ending. I like that Gurren Lagann goes for a bittersweet closer when the series is so high on adrenaline throughout. It's a nice contrast and it gave the ending more meaning.
 

yurisses

Neo Member
Can someone put a legit argument as to why they would think Gurren Lagann is a bad show?

This should be entertaining.
I love TTGL but I found that its moral compass was a bit broken and for a time it has bothered me (and I know people it bothers). I hope you can guess what I am referring to despite my lack of specifics (my memory of Gurren Lagann is very faint).

In the first and second (last) big conflicts, the protagonists each time fought with moral positions based on incomplete information. Then the first antagonist came along and his reasons for keeping people underground were revealed, but the protagonists' barely gave a thought to his point, debating with fists and manliness rather than logic. With the Anti-Spirals a similar deal occurred, with the reasons for the Anti-Spirals doing what they do revealed, and Simon's only reply being "when the problem arises, we'll find a solution".

Back then I actually entertained the idea that both antagonists were morally righter than the protagonists, and it bothered me to see "the fists of ignorance winning over the voice of reason". I don't know if I would agree now rewatching the show, because my beliefs about some things like choices and personal responsibility have changed a little, but I suppose you can use my point for food for thought.
 

dimb

Bjergsen is the greatest midlane in the world
Can someone put a legit argument as to why they would think Gurren Lagann is a bad show?

This should be entertaining.
I don't think the show in its entirety is bad, but I kind of dislike the show post time skip. Everything kind of just dawdles towards this nebulous and nonthreatening end point. There's a lot of chest puffing, but almost all of it feels empty. Many story choices that expand the world or keep things running feel like arbitrary methods to artificially bloat scope. Robots pilot bigger robots, but concepts like that don't push past the novelty of the idea, and any sense of scale kind of gets lost along the way. The after victory scenario held potential for something introspective, but instead of pushing characters or story elements outside of their bounds it retreats to regurgitate the familiar. It falls flat both emotionally and as an action series in its last half.
 
Sweet, so a lot more to come then. I'm guessing the girls get pushed aside quit a bit going forward as he gets recalled to active duties.
Either that or
they will return the favor back to Yuuji for saving them all, and be there for him since he did seem to be quite in distress. He also seems to have gotten into some kind of trouble that was being reported on the TV
... The way the show is, it's so unpredictable and I haven't played the VNs so I have no clue where this is going to go.
 
I get why people like it, and it's probably not the worst show ever made, but the style of the show just doesn't appeal to me on any level, and the tone of the show is really in your face about everything. It's nice that people like it, and I'm not going to tell anyone that they shouldn't like the show just because I didn't, but maybe they could be a little less extreme in how they act like the show is the manliest thing ever and that anyone who dislikes it has something wrong with them.

Well, the reason we're really extreme on how we like the show is probably because there's just so much dang passion that was put into it.

Everything ranging from its incredible soundtrack, animation, and pacing.

The characters may not be super deep or anything, but that's not what Gurren Lagann aims to be. It aims to be a tale of how you can accomplish anything by believing in yourself. And it embraces that concept and goes all out with it. It's in your face about everything, sure. But it does that on purpose to help go along with its themes.

I don't think there's anything wrong with someone who dislikes the show. It's people who call the show terrible that I don't understand.

For me, a terrible show is either a show that tries to do something and fails, or a show that doesn't try at all.

Gurren Lagann I feel succeeds at doing what it tried to do and I feel it deserves every bit of the praise that it gets. It's just a well put-together, fun, show. And if you don't like it, that's one hundred percent fine. But really think about it before you call the show terrible because it's style doesn't appeal to you.
 

yurisses

Neo Member
But no one called the show terrible yet, did they?

Anyway,

It aims to be a tale of how you can accomplish anything by believing in yourself.
This very self-righteousness and closed-mindedness of the protagonists, as I explained in my previous post, may be problematic to some people. Succeeding at a goal is not necessarily effective if the goal poses moral problems to the viewers. Take everything I say with a grain of salt, though, as I am arguing from my memory of a former opinion rather than my memory of the series.

(edit: btw, I think when people call something "terrible", it's ultimately the same shorthand as when people call it "great" or "well put-together". In the end, it's merely how it felt to the speaker. If you take the privilege to call a show great rather than say you liked it, which sure enough you should, I think you should give that same privilege to dislikers and tolerate their assertive terminology.)
 

Jarmel

Banned
I don't think the show in its entirety is bad, but I kind of dislike the show post time skip. Everything kind of just dawdles towards this nebulous and nonthreatening end point. There's a lot of chest puffing, but almost all of it feels empty. Many story choices that expand the world or keep things running feel like arbitrary methods to artificially bloat scope. Robots pilot bigger robots, but concepts like that don't push past the novelty of the idea, and any sense of scale kind of gets lost along the way. The after victory scenario held potential for something introspective, but instead of pushing characters or story elements outside of their bounds it retreats to regurgitate the familiar. It falls flat both emotionally and as an action series in its last half.

Yea the 2nd cour has issues. Pacing is kinda jacked in that it should have been truncated or the story spiced up in some manner. That said, there were plenty of great episodes in the backhalf that dealt with the characters and there were a number of really climatic scenes. The second cour is much more sombre at the same time as being more outlandish than the first.

That said I disagree with the aspect that it didn't push the characters in new/different directions. Kittan's decision being one, along with Rossiu's story arc. Simon also got tested a few times in the backhalf.

I love TTGL but I found that its moral compass was a bit broken and for a time it has bothered me (and I know people it bothers). I hope you can guess what I am referring to despite my lack of specifics (my memory of Gurren Lagann is very faint).

In the first and second (last) big conflicts, the protagonists each time fought with moral positions based on incomplete information. Then the first antagonist came along and his reasons for keeping people underground were revealed, but the protagonists' barely gave a thought to his point, debating with fists and manliness rather than logic. With the Anti-Spirals a similar deal occurred, with the reasons for the Anti-Spirals doing what they do revealed, and Simon's only reply being "when the problem arises, we'll find a solution".

Back then I actually entertained the idea that both antagonists were morally righter than the protagonists, and it bothered me to see "the fists of ignorance winning over the voice of reason". I don't know if I would agree now rewatching the show, because my beliefs about some things like choices and personal responsibility have changed a little, but I suppose you can use my point for food for thought.

That's an interesting perspective that I don't think the work intended to give. I would say it's more about fixing the problem in front of you, rather than stressing out over future events and neglecting those around you. The antagonists in the show were trying to calculate for potential problems down the road while causing everybody below them hardships due to their solutions.

There's also the notion that the antagonists weren't solving anything but rather just stalling. Genome and the Anti-Spirals weren't fixing the entropy (I think it was that) problem but rather just pushing things along.
 
Well, the reason we're really extreme on how we like the show is probably because there's just so much dang passion that was put into it.

Everything ranging from its incredible soundtrack, animation, and pacing.

The characters may not be super deep or anything, but that's not what Gurren Lagann aims to be. It aims to be a tale of how you can accomplish anything by believing in yourself. And it embraces that concept and goes all out with it. It's in your face about everything, sure. But it does that on purpose to help go along with its themes.

I don't think there's anything wrong with someone who dislikes the show. It's people who call the show terrible that I don't understand.

For me, a terrible show is either a show that tries to do something and fails, or a show that doesn't try at all.

Gurren Lagann I feel succeeds at doing what it tried to do and I feel it deserves every bit of the praise that it gets. It's just a well put-together, fun, show. And if you don't like it, that's one hundred percent fine. But really think about it before you call the show terrible because it's style doesn't appeal to you.

Yes, and I'm fine with people feeling that way. I tend to get passionate about certain things, too. But I think you can do that without trying to shout down people who feel otherwise (this is also something that I've probably been guilty of in the past, so I'm not going to say that it should never be done, but sometimes people just need to take a step back from the computer screen if they get so worked up about something like that).

As far as what makes a show terrible, that's a perfectly fine direction, but I don't necessarily agree that the opposite is true, and that a show that tries and succeeds at doing something can't be terrible. Personally, I think that if something succeeds at doing something, but that something wasn't worth doing in the first place, then it can be considered "terrible" just as something that failed at its goals is.

Now, to some extent my opinions on Gurren Lagann are a bit extreme, and I recognize that. But I can honestly say that there is no show in the history of television that I dislike as much as I do Gurren Lagann. And that is why I consider it to be "terrible". That's not to take a swing at anyone who likes it, but I just really, really don't like it. Part of that is that it was just the moment where I realized that Gainax was dead and never coming back (as opposed to just being in a creative rut for a few years), part of that is that the fanbase for the show acted obnoxious back in 2007, but a lot of it is that I just found the show unappealing on every level.

It feels like a show made for the purpose internet memes, rather than actually having anything to say. All of the discussion around the show just seems to center around how "hype" it is, and how manly the characters are, without really discussing anything of real substance. And it's fine if people like that, because maybe there is something everyone else but me can see. But I don't think there's anything wrong with looking at something that seems, to me, to be unappealing on every level, and saying that it's terrible.

The moment that we start deciding what can and can't be describe as terrible, or in the reverse, as amazing, is the moment that we lose the ability to have any civil discussion of differences of opinion and instead devolve into tribalism. You're free to disagree with my opinions on the show as fervently as you want, but I don't think it's fair to decide what can and can't be called terrible.
 

Cornbread78

Member
I think it would have been more of a cliche to give him his happy ending. I like that Gurren Lagann goes for a bittersweet closer when the series is so high on adrenaline throughout. It's a nice contrast and it gave the ending more meaning.

Bittersweet yeah, but he already lost I'm life time and time again, so he deserved it, especially after what that punk did to him towards the end.


Either that or
they will return the favor back to Yuuji for saving them all, and be there for him since he did seem to be quite in distress. He also seems to have gotten into some kind of trouble that was being reported on the TV
... The way the show is, it's so unpredictable and I haven't played the VNs so I have no clue where this is going to go.

Yeah, if the still have 2/3 of S2 to go, then a full S3, there is no way to tell where they go with it.
 

Robotguy

Member
There's also the notion that the antagonists weren't solving anything but rather just stalling. Genome and the Anti-Spirals weren't fixing the entropy (I think it was that) problem but rather just pushing things along.

They were just waiting until the magical girls showed up until they could harvest their emotional energy.
 
I don't think the show in its entirety is bad, but I kind of dislike the show post time skip. Everything kind of just dawdles towards this nebulous and nonthreatening end point. There's a lot of chest puffing, but almost all of it feels empty. Many story choices that expand the world or keep things running feel like arbitrary methods to artificially bloat scope. Robots pilot bigger robots, but concepts like that don't push past the novelty of the idea, and any sense of scale kind of gets lost along the way. The after victory scenario held potential for something introspective, but instead of pushing characters or story elements outside of their bounds it retreats to regurgitate the familiar. It falls flat both emotionally and as an action series in its last half.

See, this is what I feel was intended. The entire second half of the show was meant to show just how far the characters had come. What you see as just arbitrary methods to "bloat scope" I see as the only logical path for the series to go.

The show from the start was about
piercing the heavens, who's to say they shouldn't stick with it and have the characters go to space and have all the robots become bigger?

I get that the second half isn't perfect, but what it all amounts to is what I feel makes it.
 

Zephyx

Member
Oregairu/SNAFU Season 2, Arc 1 - Hina Ebina, Yaoi Master

I don't understand why Yui and Yukino are all upset at the end of this. He makes a fake confession for no one's benefit other than Tobe (since everyone else of relevance knows what's up) and Tobe's not even all that mad about it.

Then Yukino gives him some shit and then Yui gets all tearful and pissed. I'd like to think its deeper than "Hachiman's harem lol" but it doesn't make any sense otherwise and I've seen too much anime to really believe its deeper, really. Hachiman's reputation isn't ruined at all and Yui knows he's faking it. So what's she pissed about? The only thing I can guess is she's mad that he made that confession and upset her since she's secretly in love with him. Except its not like this is something she made explicit at any time, so what's she mad about?

Yui: She likes him and she doesn't want to see him hurting himself just to help others.

Yukino: Probably same reason as Yui + based on what I understood, she believes Hachiman's solution does not solve the problem at heart, skirts around it, trying to patch things up without considering long term effects. This is evident in this case and the Rumi issue in S1. Also, especially for this case, Hachiman sacrificed himself to maintain something superficial (Hayama's relationship with his friends) which he and Yukino loathes.
 
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