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[Dude Abides]

The hijab is born out of oppression, if you knew anything about the history of it rather than virtue signalling you would know that.

YOU are the one being disingenuous trying to make it out to be some sort of symbol of diversity or strength or empowerment when it's anything but that in Iran or anywhere else for that matter, the truth is it was made to be oppressive.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/realsp...-symbol-of-political-oppression/#2a16f919150f

But you don't care about the oppression of women. You just don't like Muslims and this is an easy rhetorical bat for you to hit them with.

 

[Guevara]

In one year alone, according to official governmental statistics, 3.6 million Iranian women were arrested/fined/warned for what they wore??

 

[MUnited83]

Not what I said at all.

Things like this make me ashamed of the brand of western feminism constantly defending these practices with no concern for the women actually suffering from it, even talking over them, telling everyone they're some symbol of feminism, what a joke.

You are not even able to read your own posts? Holy fucking shit thats a new one.

 

[azyless]

You are not even able to read your own posts? Holy fucking shit thats a new one.

I've made it clear several times that I was talking about denying that the hijab was a symbol of oppression and associating it with feminism, I don't know who's not able to read here.

 

[Milly Osworth]

As always: religion, fuck yeaahhh!

 

[MUnited83]

I've made it clear several times that I was talking about associating the hijab with feminism, I don't know who's not able to read here.

You might want to edit that post then because it literally is not what you said at all, even remotely.

 

[hodgy100]

But you don't care about the oppression of women. You just don't like Muslims and this is an easy rhetorical bat for you to hit them with.

This is how you come across Philosophy. If thats not your intention then fine. but when you focus on a bloody item of clothing over the the institution and people doing the actual oppressing thats how it comes across.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I do like the irony of the zealous actor in this discussion being OP freaking out over a religious garment in all situations no matter the context.

 

[Murkas]

Lol you don't give a fuck about Iranian women.

 

[IISANDERII]

So my friends sister that wears a hijab is oppressed? despite wearing it out of choice? and my friend who doesn't wear one out of choice isnt oppressed?

How do you know she isn't forced?

 

[Skyzard]

It can't, that's the point, in the same way the swastika cannot, history has stained it and the countless lives lost because of both have stained them.

Women who wear it by choice do exist, that doesn't mean it isn't oppressive.

The hijab is like a swastika now?

It's been stained by... what? Countries that force women to wear it? So now no one can wear one without supporting oppression? lol

It's a symbol of modesty. If a woman chooses to wear it, that's not being oppressed. You don't have to have your tits out to want equal rights.

Is nudity is stained by porn? And anyone who wants to be naked is oppressing women through their support of porn?

 

[hodgy100]

How do you know she isn't forced?

because her sister doesn't wear one and gets no flack for it?

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

The hijab is like a swastika now?

People who wear swastikas get punched in the face and GAF likes it

A hijab is now equivalent to a swastika

🤔

 

[Kinyou]

If the members of the jewish community in Europe were to adopt armbands with the Star of David as a sign of post-war empowerment, that'd maybe be a more apt analogy, wouldn't it?

I guess you'd have to add then that there would also still be countries where jews would be forced to wear these armbands.

 

[hodgy100]

You're right, I give a fuck about all women and men for that matter, I give a fuck about women being oppressed, it is YOU, who does not give a fuck about Iranian women.

how does criticising women for wearing a symbol of oppression help them.

Countless women being murdered in the name of not wearing it in oppressive regimes? How is that difficult to understand?

So the problem is the oppressive regimes not the the hijab. How is that difficult to understand?

 

[MUnited83]

You're right, I give a fuck about all women and men for that matter, I give a fuck about women being oppressed, it is YOU, who does not give a fuck about Iranian women.

You don't give a single shit about anyone but yourself, I guarantee you that. Hilarious that you are saying he doesn't care about Iranian women. Has he said anything about defending Iranian government or Lawes? No? Didn't think so. But of course, as per your usual shtick, you just make up random shit as you go along.

 

[Derwind]

It can't, that's the point, in the same way the swastika cannot, history has stained it and the countless lives lost because of both have stained them.

Women who wear it by choice do exist, that doesn't mean it isn't oppressive.

Nah, it can and constantly is being redefining by stronger people than keyboard warriors like you or myself.

The hijab being linked to oppressive regimes does not define all that it is.

Unless you think that a Buddhist temple should be banned from displaying a symbol of the swatsika because it has been linked to oppressive regimes.

Also, as a black man living in North America, I am well aware how many signs of oppression have been redefined and still are being redefined for those oppressed.

Now I had fun but it's clear to me this discussion will never go anywhere as I fundamental disagree with your premise.

 

[Skellig Gra]

Things like this make me ashamed of the brand of western feminism constantly defending the hijab with no concern for the women actually suffering from it, even talking over them, telling everyone they're some symbol of feminism, what a joke.
If I remember correctly during olympics qualifiers there were also cases of players not being able to fly because their husbands didn't allow them too.
Won't stop some people here from defending Iran's treatment of women.

There are 2 completely unique scenarios. One is women being forced to wear the hijab and others who choose it freely. It's no different here in the west where fashion standards are set by men for what is "sexy" for women. Many women feel obligated to dress that way to attract a mate, others like that certain fashion style and wear it happily.

 

[Skyzard]

Countless women being murdered in the name of not wearing it in oppressive regimes? How is that difficult to understand?

Oppressive regimes forcing people in their country to wear one doesn't stain the hijab, it's a stain on their country.

How is that difficult to understand. You're making logical jumps out of desperation to condemn the hijab itself, when it's a symbol of modesty. Women wearing it out of choice are not supporting oppression, they're supporting modesty.

Because modesty doesn't have much to do with western feminism, that doesn't mean anything to non-westerners.

You're trying to shame women into taking off a hijab, and quite frankly it's as disgusting as hijab bans.

No one here is supporting the forced wearing of a hijab, but if a woman wants to wear it, I'm not going to tell her to take it off like an xenophobic jackass.

 

[jay]

Cultural oppression is a real. Woman who think they had a choice in wearing a hijab when that choice was already made for them when they were born as a girl.

Definitely. Just like women here decide to wear heels but the decision that society finds them more valuable when they stick out their chest and ass has been made for them long before they were born.

 

[MUnited83]

I expected this reaction, you are wrong, I have no issues with Muslims, I have issues with Islam as a religion and think it is in need of reformation, especially when it comes to the way women are treated.

I love how you say I don't care about the oppression of women, if that were the case I would be SUPPORTING this kind of practice as shown in the OP.

I have plenty of arguments to state why I dislike the religion of Islam just like I have plenty of arguments as to why I dislike many other religions.

You are now trying to use a victimhood narrative to try and take away from the factual perspective, I am suprised it took this long but it just proves my point even more than it is, actually, you and the others using this argument that don't care about the rights of these women.

That's a hilarious statement from someone like you, that doesn't see women as actual people, instead tools to be used on arguments. If a woman somehow doesn't conform to your exact views, she must be lying, be ipressed, have internalised opression or worse.

 

[hodgy100]

I didn't criticise them? I have said they are free to wear whatever they wish, it doesn't stop it being a tool of oppression however, that not criticism, that's the reality.

As I have said, many times, the Hijab was created as a tool of oppression.

and no one is disagreeing with you there. people are taking umbridge on your black and white view of the modern perception of the garb.

Your OP was a complaint about the Hijab not a complaint about oppressive islamic regimes.

if your "commentary" in the OP was "fuck Iran's oppression of women, screwing them out of opportunities because they wont wear a Hijab" this argument wouldn't be happening.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

3.6 million is a big number, Jesus.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Things like this make me ashamed of the brand of western feminism constantly defending the hijab with no concern for the women actually suffering from it, even talking over them, telling everyone they're some symbol of feminism, what a joke.
If I remember correctly during olympics qualifiers there were also cases of players not being able to fly because their husbands didn't allow them too.
Won't stop some people here from defending Iran's treatment of women.

I don't think that anybody is defending the imposition of the hijab in Iran.

 

[MUnited83]

So because I point out that oppressive regimes and tools have an impact the ability of people who are oppressed to state the truth or understand the reality of the situation that means I am using women as tools for arguments?

You are delusional.

You use women as tools for arguments because you don't think women have actual freedom of choice or thought, they somehow are all messed up internalised opressed just because they wear something you don't like them to wear.

 

[hodgy100]

So because I point out that oppressive regimes and tools have an impact the ability of people who are oppressed to state the truth or understand the reality of the situation that means I am using women as tools for arguments?

You are delusional.

But the tool isn't the problem. If garments were the cause of oppression then we would ban wedding rings because they used to be a symbol of ownership. we would ban hoodies because they can be used as a tool to instill fear.

It's not my intention, that's just people trying to discredit the relevance of my argument, the item of clothing is used as a tool of oppression from within those institutions, how can I view it any other way?

because the regime is doing the oppressing not the item of clothing.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Created by men to hide women away from society, it's a tool of oppression, I am not shaming anyone, women are free to wear whatever they wish to wear, that doesn't stop it being what it is though, it was created by men to oppress women, this is a FACT,

Writting FACT in capital letter don't make something true. Hijab was used by the high class in pre islamcic arabian peninsula. It was a mark of honor and distinction.

It was not invented by anyone, and nobody can say with some historical evidence whatsoever that it was invented by men.

 

[orochi91]

This seems like an issue with the Iranian regime, rather than the hijab itself.

Obviously if it's forced, then it can be considered​ oppression.

It's totally kosher if it's willingly worn, and I'm not going to assume those women are conforming to some notion of internalized oppression either; that's condescending as fuck.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Saying that covering one hair is essentially an act of oppression is as non-sense and stupid as saying that high heels is an act of submission to patriarchy.

Just let women wear what they want damn it !
This mentality of white savior is the western counterpart of islamic fundamentalism.

 

[jay]

You use women as tools for arguments because you don't think women have actual freedom of choice or thought, they somehow are all messed up internalised opressed just because they wear something you don't like them to wear.

You misunderstand feminism and possible principles in general. If someone believes in freedom, lack of oppression, equality, etc. then that concept is what guides their positions, not what some random people think. For example, women who think they should not be allowed to vote aren't magical because they are women. They have stupid opinions contrary to my ideals and don't get special consideration because they are women. Feminism is not the belief that all women are always right about all things.

 

[MUnited83]

By the way, the OP is purposefully trying to get a ban in a different thread and it's pretty transparent why. The only thing dude wants out of this thread is something to point to his friends over on Voat and make it seem like "hey guys I got banned because I think women shouldn't be opressed. Those damn libtards huh?"

Again:

Your
Shtick
Is
Fucking
OLD

 

[Skyzard]

Definitely. Just like women here decide to wear heels but the decision that society finds them more valuable when they stick out their chest and ass has been made for them long before they were born.

So by op's logic, wearing yoga pants is supporting the oppression of women.

 

[jay]

So by op's logic, wearing yoga pants is supporting the oppression of women.

I think you're trying to make a contrary point, but this is a plausible argument I don't necessarily disagree with. Western society is definitely sexist. But also tends to be less so comparatively than many other societies. That people in the West are oppressed is not a get out of jail card for discussing other oppression.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

You want to help iranian women? Start with humility. They don't want their hijab prohibited, they want to be able to take it on or off as they want.

 

[Skyzard]

I think you're trying to make a contrary point, but this is a plausible argument I don't necessarily disagree with. Western society is definitely sexist. But also tends to be less so comparatively than many other societies. That people in the West are oppressed is not a get out of jail card for discussing other oppression.

One culture encourages women to be sexy, the other, modest.

Bans and forced attire are the issue.

People should do what they want.

 

[Nabbis]

One culture encourages women to be sexy, the other, modest.

Bans and forced attire are the issue.

People should do what they want.

I like how you use the word encourage for both when the other one does far more than simply encourage and in a very disproportional manner.

 

[MUnited83]

I don't think that whatsoever, what kind of mental gymnastics did you have to perform to come to that conclusion?

I have said that WOMEN CAN CHOOSE TO WEAR WHAT THEY WISH TO WEAR, but it doesn't stop the FACT that this item of clothing was designed as a TOOL OF OPPRESSION and that individuals who are OPPRESSED are often SILENCED from speaking the TRUTH.

If you cannot take into account that being a variable then you are a lost cause, my opinion was based on what those women said in particular, that's what it was, an opinion, it doesn't stand for all women obviously.

I am also not using them as "Tools for an argument" the argument here is around the fact that a woman has been banned for not complying to an item of oppressive clothing by an oppressive regime.

I FULLY support equal voices for women, I support women's rights, my mother was a feminist (not the modern type, you know, the type of feminist that actually cared about women rather than shaming them for not following their ideology.) it is YOU who use women as a tool to argue in favour of your own sense of self-satisfaction, you think you hold the moral high ground because you are being "virtuous" because you are trying to defend something that was built as an oppressive tool to not offend ideologies but by doing so you are actually, HARMING women.

You don't support women and you have been supported women on your entire life. Feel free to point where I defended Iran's laws and government btw. I'm HARMING women because I think they have the freedom of choice and thought to wear what they want? HOLY SHIT

 

[TheGraykid]

Created by men to hide women away from society, it's a tool of oppression, I am not shaming anyone, women are free to wear whatever they wish to wear, that doesn't stop it being what it is though, it was created by men to oppress women, this is a FACT,

Aren't loads of social normalities holdovers from social oppression? For example marriage, which was used to force women into sexual long-term relationships with men whether they wanted to or not. Nowadays marriage still exists and we still participate in it, would you call that a tool of oppression today? Interested to know your answer.

 

[FairFriend]

Nuns are being oppressed by wearing hair cover.

-said no one, because it's not Islam

Except, you know, many atheists, myself included. It seems that the concept of someone being coerced into wearing something not by the use of force but through indirect psychological pressure is completely alien to some of you.

I maintain that if a woman decides to become a nun, she has been the victim of at least one crime, that is the negligence of her parents who didn't provide her proper education.

 

[MUnited83]

Completely unreleated but yes, you are right, I am trying to get a ban so I don't have to respond to the idiocy of intellectually dishonest people like yourself.

I couldn't give a fuck what anyone thinks, voat included.

But I saw this on twitter and I knew I would expose even more disgusting individuals who pretend to give a shit about women but clearly do not because the second you mention them in this regard, you cannot speak about it on here, you only give a shit when it suits you.

Incase you haven't seen, sexism is rampant on GAF and completely fair as long as it's against women who don't agree with their political consensus, it's embarrasing and so are you.

It's a double standard.

again, feel free to point to where I defend Iran. I'm still waiting.

 

[ClosingADoor]

If you want to wear a hijab, go ahead, what do I care. But let's not pretend there aren't pressures from society, religion and family in those things. I don't think I have seen people seeing it as a "feminist symbol" anywhere, and considering its history and use by oppressive regimes around the world, I don't think it should be used as one. It just really differs between countries and regions also.

As for the issue of the topic, fuck Iran for doing this. I hope the country can manage changes and their people get some freedom from these religious nuts.

Nuns are being oppressed by wearing hair cover.

-said no one, because it's not Islam.

I don't think there is that much pressure on young girls to become nuns these days.

 

[IggyChooChoo]

You want to help iranian women? Start with humility. They don't want their hijab prohibited, they want to be able to take it on or off as they want.

This. OP doesn't get to dictate what religious garb means to all women. I personally know Muslim women in college/grad school in the US who wear headscarves because they like them, so it's a little ridiculous to hear OP act like they don't know their own minds on the subject or just assume they are lying.

 

[Skyzard]

I don't think there is that much pressure on young girls to become nuns these days.

I like how you use the word encourage for both when the other one does far more than simply encourage and in a very disproportional manner.

Girls less than 10 years old can't wait to try make up in the west. The "encouragement" of sex appeal is massive.

"Doing far more than simply encouraging" do you mean forced wearing of the hijab? Because I don't support that either.

 

[MUnited83]

You keep believing that Bernardo, if it helps you sleep at night and paint your pathetic imaginary picture of me in your mind as some nazi woman hater.

You really are a complete ignoramus, if I want to have a discussion with an unintelligible, incoherent, discursive senseless idiot in the future though I will keep you in mind. .

That's rich coming from someone that has done nothing but making up shit imaginary boogeymen, tell women they don't have freedom of choice and that starts insulting everyone else when they call you out on your bullshit instead of getting some actual arguments lmao

in the instance of forced marriage, I would actually, yes. I would argue that marriage has also been used as a tool of oppression.

According to your logic then, women who get married today must be brainwashed or have internalised opression too? Should be they be ashamed for marrying since it used to be extremely related with opression?

 

[LNBL]

https://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenin...al-womens-team-in-iran-for-not-wearing-hijab/



Let's celebrate the freedom of the hijab GAF!

That's a great way to start a discussion op

 

[Kinyou]

If you want to wear a hijab, go ahead, what do I care. But let's not pretend there aren't pressures from society, religion and family in those things. I don't think I have seen people seeing it as a "feminist symbol" anywhere, and considering its history and use by oppressive regimes around the world, I don't think it should be used as one. It just really differs between countries and regions also.

As for the issue of the topic, fuck Iran for doing this. I hope the country can manage changes and their people get some freedom from these religious nuts.


I don't think there is that much pressure on young girls to become nuns these days.

There's the world hijab day which kind of goes into that direction

Robyn Blodgett, who does not usually cover her head, posted on Instagram: "There's is something indescribably empowering and peaceful I feel when I cover up this way. A feeling that many wouldn't understand.

"When I go out in hijab, I walk more confidently and I find myself naturally being a better version of myself from my personal intentions to interactions and actions."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-...over-their-heads-in-solidarity-muslim/8234116

I get the intention but since people are also still oppressed into wearing one it feels uncomfortable

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Nuns are being oppressed by wearing hair cover.

-said no one, because it's not Islam.

That's not an apt comparison though because you can choose to become a nun and there are, afaik, multiple orders that don't require you to wear one.

 

[Nabbis]

Girls less than 10 years old can't wait to try make up in the west. The "encouragement" of sex appeal is massive.

"Doing far more than simply encouraging" do you mean forced wearing of the hijab? Because I don't support that either.

No, i just find it disgusting how you equate the two. Part of the Western sex appeal culture is also a knee-jerk reaction of people finally getting over the puritan values that another oppressive religion tried to instill for many centuries. The legacy of the Hijab is oppression and not liberation, unlike Western "sexy" culture.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

If you want to wear a hijab, go ahead, what do I care. But let's not pretend there aren't pressures from society, religion and family in those things. I don't think I have seen people seeing it as a "feminist symbol" anywhere, and considering its history and use by oppressive regimes around the world, I don't think it should be used as one. It just really differs between countries and regions also.

As for the issue of the topic, fuck Iran for doing this. I hope the country can manage changes and their people get some freedom from these religious nuts.


I don't think there is that much pressure on young girls to become nuns these days.

In some muslim majority country, wearing an hijab is going against the norm and would cause you backlash from your own family. As a minority, in France, it's a very common issue also.

So, like any garb, it depend on many factors. It could be a tool for emancipation and a tool for oppression. If you do wear hijab against the will of your entourage, society, culture etc it's empowerment. If you do it because social pressure or worst, state law, it's definitely oppression.

The same thing apply for the banning of hijab in France schools.Or in Ataturk Turkey or Pahlavi Iran.

 

[Skyzard]

in the instance of forced marriage, I would actually, yes. I would argue that marriage has also been used as a tool of oppression.

So only in that instance. But for those who choose to get married, it's irrelevant.

...

No, i just find it disgusting how you equate the two.

I find it disgusting that you don't.