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Star Wars: The Old Republic [Releasing Date: Dec 20 NA/EU - NDA Lifted]

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Emitan

Member
About death (since I don't really know enough about the other things you asked): TOR is designed to be hard, but with a lenient death system.

GeorgZoeller said:
I'd just like to reiterate our stance that Death Penalty makes a game more punishing, it does not create a greater challenge to overcome. It's a mindset from the early arcade game times, when throwing barriers into the player's path ensured they would spend more quarters and time on a game.

A harsh death penalty causes players to play risk averse and conservatively, which is not our goal.

To resort to an overused term: It's not terribly heroic to be risk averse. Heroes take risks and reap great rewards. If Han and Luke had been risk averse...

The goal for us is to offer entertainment to our players. That means reducing incidents where players quit in frustration because they have to re-run the same content over and over. (Note that they may occasionally still quit in frustration because the actual encounter was too hard for them, but at least then the frustration is directly related to the encounter, not the penalty after it.)

It's not terribly heroic to rush in a dozen times and be defeated either, so we're taking care to calibrate the system where the on-the-spot medical probe isn't viable for one-man zerging through content.

Let me give you an example of an encounter in the game (without spoilers) we introduced after changing to the medical probe system:

At some point in the story, a Jedi character may end up on a Sith ship in a commando mission to take out a powerful Sith Lord who is said to have uncovered a powerful and deadly attack with the Force.

After fighting through Imperial troops, Imperial special forces and the Lord's prospective students from the landing bay to the bridge, the player finally gets to face the Sith. As Sith Lords go, he's pretty confident in himself and makes it abundantly clear, in slightly too many villainous words, that there is no hope of standing against him, etc. As Jedi go, your character may probably say something like 'Like most of your kind, you're pretty full of it'.

A battle ensues. 20 seconds into the battle, the player suddenly feels a stabbing pain in his chest, falls over and dies. Turns out that this particular Sith Lord wasn't joking about his capabilities.

An attentive player may have noticed what lead to that this turn of events and, next time faced with the Sith Lord, will make sure the outcome is different. Other players will pay closer attention next time, may fail again and defeat the enemy in the 3rd attempt.

Keep in mind that enemies will heal back to their previous state after the player falls, so there is no way to just rush this Sith Lord quickly and defeat him over time.

This scenario was not really possible in our game before the introduction of the medical probe. Before that option, you'd have to travel through the Sith Warship from the landing bay back to the bridge. If the content is open world and not instanced (and the largest part of our game is open world), you'd also have to fight through everyone again. That's between 4-15 minutes of 'death penalty' each time you'd die. Our testers absolutely hated that.

Now, with the ability to have a limited number of in-the-field revivals, this kind of scenario is one of the things we're deploying more widely through the game.

BioWare has never been afraid of using failure-learn-succeess mechanics in our games. A large part of what the Baldur's Gate series successful was exactly this mechanic. By introducing the medical droid option to the game, we allow ourselves to have challenging boss battles more frequently that require the player to learn and adapt to overcome the obstacle. We're in process of updating many areas of the game now to increase the overall challenge of combat as a result.

Obviously the threshold of what is acceptable is different from player to player and obviously we're aiming to hit the sweet spot that is right for most of our players, so yes, if you're ultra hardcore and wish the medical probe wasn't there or could be only used once, you're going to be disappointed ... but nobody forces you to use it. The 'revive at medcenter' (and walk up to 15 minutes back to your death location is always available.

If that's not acceptable, well, to put it after Obi Wan: "This might not be the punishing experience you are looking for", because that system is not going away :)
 

madara

Member
Yeah I go back to EQ on emu servers from time to time for that fix.I dont think your going find that model again in mmorpgs Yo_soy_el_topo. Folks today want easy access, easy travel, soloing, asterisks above npc quest givers heads and being able to get things done in hour. Side effect is less persist believable world where you truly rely on community.
 
ToyBroker said:
Because seeing high level armor encourages lower level players to play more, so their character can look cool too.

Often high level armor looks like shit, but no one cares, the stats are all that matters and epeen of showing off high tier stuff. In WoW I was constantly pissed to lose a cool looking low level armor set for some of the ridiculous high tier sets.

DCUO has a great system, LOTRO is similar as well. At least TOR lets you color match your armor sets and not not get stuck with clown armor. Be nice if they gave full dye control like WAR though.
 

Lesath

Member
The unique classes, enchanter for crowd control, monk for pulling, wiz for damage, mage pets, clerics heal/revive, Shamans for buff/debuff, etc.

From what I can see, there are basically 4 classes that mirror each other per faction, whom can each go into 1 of 2 advanced classes. Advanced classes have two unique trees and one tree shared within a class. For example, a Sith Warrior is a mirror of the Jedi Knight, and has the Advanced Classes of Juggernaut and Marauder. As a Juggernaut, there is a tanking tree, a DPS tree, and a tree that he shares with the Marauder.

The trinity is here, but most advanced classes can fill more than one role. Welcome to modern MMO design. The CC, buff, and debuffer role sound really nice on paper, but are huge limitations to effective and fair encounter designs.

Dungeons/world was completely open, no instances etc.
There are instances, but worlds are nonetheless huge.

The social atmosphere of having to ask for help for a teleport, invis, buff, etc.
From what little I have heard, there is very little in this sort of thing that classes can offer each other.

I also liked how there was an extreme penalty for dying and the intense difficulty of the game in general.

I recall that from the Q&A, Bioware's intention is to make reviving relatively easy, so that they can make encounters hard. You basically revive where you died, with the opportunity to move away and heal out of combat. However, if you die again, the delay until you can revive again increases.
 
Ferny73 said:
So is it like Rift where u got one revive every 60 mins on the field? It sounds like it may be more though?

Yea sounds like RIFT, but apparently you can keep reviving but you get a bigger wait penalty between each rez the more you are knocked out. At least thats how I understood it.
 

CoilShot

Member
BattleMonkey said:
MMO's are not meant to end, and since you pay a fee players don't want to let it end. Games like SWG and UO were dependant on being a community, but had no actual aim or end game.

If the stories in TOR have an actual class ending, then for some that will be endgame, but for many it will just be a constant grind for more and better gear/character power.
This is what I loved about swg was the community. Call me crazy but I would love logging on to meet up with people to talk and team up with. A community can make or break a mmo.
 

Interfectum

Member
BattleMonkey said:
Yea sounds like RIFT, but apparently you can keep reviving but you get a bigger wait penalty between each rez the more you are knocked out. At least thats how I understood it.

Can party members revive you if you have a wait penalty?
 
Interfectum said:
Can party members revive you if you have a wait penalty?

Pretty sure some characters have revivie abilities to help.

CoilShot said:
This is what I loved about swg was the community. Call me crazy but I would love logging on to meet up with people to talk and team up with. A community can make or break a mmo.

Oh yea that was the best part of SWG, great community interaction. But sadly that kind of MMO does not seem to sell nowadays. Though really they could create a game like SWG (but make sure everything works), and put actual content in it. Games like SWG and such were just sandbox with no real content. Someone needs to create a sandbox MMO again but with continual support of content, endgame, etc. EVE is kind of the only one and they have been trying to put some content into it slowly, but still it's focus is on the community and sandbox
 

Emitan

Member
CoilShot said:
This is what I loved about swg was the community. Call me crazy but I would love logging on to meet up with people to talk and team up with. A community can make or break a mmo.
I really wish I had played SWG. I'm 20 now, so I was too young for my parents to let me play it when it came out. And when I was older I never gave it a chance because I heard there were some updates that ruined everything (the combat update and that other one). It seems like EVE is the only somewhat popular sandbox MMO left. I'm excited for TOR, but I'd much prefer a sandbox to a rollercoaster.

BattleMonkey said:
Pretty sure some characters have revivie abilities to help.
Everyone has an out of combat rez. And Councilars and Inquisitors have in combat ones.
 

Emitan

Member
-Mikey- said:
If I pre-order this on Origin for 5 dollars, will I be sent a code to get in the beta asap?
There is no way to get yourself in the beta. All you can do is sign up for the beta and hope you get in. But I'm hoping have a preorder makes you a bit more likely to be chosen for the weekend betas.
 

Marco1

Member
I agree that it would be great if it was a sandbox MMO but isn't this what bioware does and they are just building an MMO on top of it ?
Maybe in the future the game will change but it will be interesting to see what xpacs will bring to the table.
Hopefully not just more missions but more new ideas. At the end of the day and MMO makes it's money from subs and if the players aren't happy, no more subs.
Although if the game fails then it will be interesting to see who EA and bioware blame.
Does anyone think this could also be a big testing ground for the first MMO to be brought to the next-gen of consoles ?
 

Knox

Member
yo_soy_el_topo said:
This may sound dumb but I have a question regarding this game and I don't know a whole lot about mmos.

The only MMO I have ever played was Everquest up to the velious expansion and I have been looking for a new game that kinda has a similar world/ fighting system.

I tried WoW but the lack of interesting classes and instances turned me off 1 week after the game was released. I also found it to be to easy and reminded me of diablo in that I could just go up and attack stuff around my level and win regardless. I never got to raid or anything like that and these are opinions from the first months release of the game, but anyway...

What I mean by this is i'm curious how SWTOR game handles combat/grouping/dungeons and how it would compare to how it was in Everquest?

Things I loved about everquest:
The unique classes, enchanter for crowd control, monk for pulling, wiz for damage, mage pets, clerics heal/revive, Shamans for buff/debuff, etc.
Dungeons/world was completely open, no instances etc.
The social atmosphere of having to ask for help for a teleport, invis, buff, etc.
I also liked how there was an extreme penalty for dying and the intense difficulty of the game in general.


I know i am probably going to be hounded for asking this but there has to be someone out there that feels me and what I'm trying to find out here.

(Un)fortunately, the things you listed are the kind of things WoW helped wipe off the face of the MMO world, which includes SWTOR. Classes are less pigeon holed, dungeons are instanced, travel is relatively quick, death is a minor inconvenience.

I would check out Vanguard (http://vgplayers.station.sony.com/). I'm not sure exactly how alive it is but I'm sure there's a community for it. The site is even teasing new content. It always seemed like a more old school EQ style MMO. I've wanted to try it but I know I probably don't have the patience.
 

Morn

Banned
Marco1 said:
I agree that it would be great if it was a sandbox MMO but isn't this what bioware does and they are just building an MMO on top of it ?

No. It's a themepark MMO, not a sandbox
 

Emitan

Member
Morn said:
No. It's a themepark MMO, not a sandbox
That's what he said. "Isn't TOR just what Bioware does best" means a story focused single player RPG. "And they are just building an MMO on top of it" speaks for itself.
 
New EA financials are the same as last time. "Fiscal Year 2012 Key Titles by Label and Platform – this list excludes Star Wars®: The Old Republic™, which is targeted to launch holiday 2011."

http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/email/alert/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsLang=en&newsId=20110726007037
 

Gvaz

Banned
wow the ui barely tells you anything and it was only from the inclusion of addons that wow even has the raid elements it does in the first place.

BattleMonkey said:
In WoW I was constantly pissed to lose a cool looking low level armor set for some of the ridiculous high tier sets.
119308.jpg


:<
 
Thanks for the responses to my dumb Everquest related questions. It really helped me out a lot though!

On the note of Vanguard...
I heard of it and followed up before the release and when I tried the open beta it was not what I was looking for either and I don't think it has a rather strong community at this point, plus I want that fresh start feel. Thanks for the suggestion though, it IS the closest thing out there I would think to what I'm looking for.
 

Emitan

Member
Gvaz said:
wow the ui barely tells you anything and it was only from the inclusion of addons that wow even has the raid elements it does in the first place.


119308.jpg


:<
That's not the highest level armor? IT SHOULD BE
 

Gvaz

Banned
I meant the swords. They're low 70s crafted or quest gear, and that's it. Nothing, no dungeon versions, no high level raid versions, that's it.

HERE HAVE THIS ITEM AT 73 OR WHATEVER AND NEVER USE IT AGAIN, ALSO THE MODEL IS COOL AND UNIQUE HAHA IM TAKING YOUR MONTHLY PAYMENT NOW
 

Won

Member
I felt really bad for the guys who did the 1-60 cataclysm sets. So much better than the stuff they want to put on my head as raid reward, only to be never seen by most players. :(
 

Morn

Banned
They're doing the beta weekends in SEPTEMBER. That's basically open beta. You don't do open beta, get people hyped, and then shut them out for a month to launch in November. The game is coming in October unless something drastic happens.
 

Woorloog

Banned
ToyBroker said:
Because seeing high level armor encourages lower level players to play more, so their character can look cool too.
You just told me why i didn't have a hurry to level up in WoW. Maybe. I like simplistic, realistic armors. Higher level armors were too flashy and ornate and big for me. I mean, i don't think the raid/high level gear didn't look cool and wouldn't make my toon look cool...
At least that's part of it, i'm sure.
Funny how random comments can affect oneself, telling the reader about him/her
I hope there will be less ornate stuff too at high levels in TOR.
 

CoilShot

Member
Morn said:
They're doing the beta weekends in SEPTEMBER. That's basically open beta. You don't do open beta, get people hyped, and then shut them out for a month to launch in November. The game is coming in October unless something drastic happens.
I agree with the October release.
 

Giolon

Member
Morn said:
Explain how it makes sense to do open beta weekends in September, get people hyped for the game, and then shut them out for two months?

Absence makes the heart grow fonder?
 
October/November seems to be very likely right now. During the EA Earnings Conference Call that just ended minutes ago, EA announced they want to give out a hard ship date for SWTOR in September. They also said a hard ship date would be only weeks away from launch. *Edit*: Just to clarify: this is common practice for MMORPGs. World of Warcraft and Warhammer Online released within 3 weeks of their release date (nearly every single MMORPG released within 4-6 weeks).

Looks like release date in September/October (probably right after the beta weekends) and launch in October/November is the current plan.

*Edit*: Looks like Darth Hater did a live blog on this: http://darthhater.com/2011/07/26/electronic-arts-q1-2012-earnings-conference-call/
 

Shrennin

Didn't get the memo regarding the 14th Amendment
Dinosaur Tamer said:
October/November seems to be very likely right now. During the EA Earnings Conference Call that just ended minutes ago, EA announced they want to give out a hard ship date for SWTOR in September. They also said a hard ship date would be only weeks away from launch. *Edit*: Just to clarify: this is common practice for MMORPGs. World of Warcraft and Warhammer Online released within 3 weeks of their release date (nearly every single MMORPG released within 4-6 weeks).

Looks like release date in September/October (probably right after the beta weekends) and launch in October/November is the current plan.

*Edit*: Looks like Darth Hater did a live blog on this: http://darthhater.com/2011/07/26/electronic-arts-q1-2012-earnings-conference-call/

That's probably what BioWare meant when they said that the release date announcement wouldn't come as a surprise to anyone (they wouldn't just announce it out of the blue).

The train has arrived!
 

Trouble

Banned
piratepwnsninja said:
Last three months of the year are considered "Holiday" from a sales standpoint. BF3 is out in October and is a "Holiday" release.
Yeah "Holiday" is just another way of saying calendar year Q4.
 
Morn said:
They're doing the beta weekends in SEPTEMBER. That's basically open beta. You don't do open beta, get people hyped, and then shut them out for a month to launch in November. The game is coming in October unless something drastic happens.

Im gonna call 10th October release day with early access starting on the 3rd.
 
PAX Prime is in August. EA just (as in minutes ago) told shareholders they will announce a ship date in September.

*Edit*: Don't get me wrong. I was sure they will announce it at Gamescom or PAX Prime, but they already announced September.
 
Dinosaur Tamer said:
October 10th is not a Tuesday. Does that NA release rule not apply to MMORPGs?

Yeah meant the 11th, must have misread my computers calendar (was also posting while getting shot at on star wars galaxies lol)
 

Gvaz

Banned
Dinosaur Tamer said:
PAX Prime is in August. EA just (as in minutes ago) told shareholders they will announce a ship date in September.

*Edit*: Don't get me wrong. I was sure they will announce it at Gamescom or PAX Prime, but they already announced September.
September isn't holiday either, unless they ship the game towards the end of september and release in october.
 

Emitan

Member
Gvaz said:
September isn't holiday either, unless they ship the game towards the end of september and release in october.
Announce ship date in September based on September beta. Release in October (4th or 11th).
 
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