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Star Wars: The Old Republic [Releasing Date: Dec 20 NA/EU - NDA Lifted]
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NemesisPrime
Banned
Ignis Fatuus said:
Wow.... I am afraid now
Thanks for the good vibes.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
LAUGHTREY said:
Who are you?
No seriously, who are you? And what are you saying here that can be used for anything other than toiletpaper?
Monkey, sorry to dissapoint your conspiracy theories, but I don't dictate the media. After all I consider myself a MMORPG expert, and I bear the tag proudly, since it's self assigned.
What you say is obvious, and it's offensive that you even have to say it. I think it's pretty fair at this point to counter balance the negs with the positives.
Lastly, it's perfectly logical and valid to raise questions(or complain as you put it) about the "single player story". After all, the story is the heel hook in this game, remember. KOTOR would be pretty shit if all three of your party members were the same characters.
If I play with my friend and he is the same class as me, we have the same voice actor. How is that not immersion breaking? Seriously, WTF?
BattleMonkey
Member
Vigilant Walrus said:
You keep posting the same crap over and over again, it's not really a conspiracy when you keep doing the same thing, it's already proven. You also are talking in circles about the whole negative/positive thing, when all you do is return to focusing on the negative and creating hypothetical concerns that no one would know till the game comes out, and ones that no other MMO has solved.
The immersion breaking is no different from pretty much ANY video game, give me a friggin break. Same happens in most coop game modes, and MMO's are all nothing but massive piles of immersion breaking with a bunch of people doing the same things. The game is a MMO, with all the typical MMO trappings and not really any different from any MP based RPG where you have a clash of ideals. Really is no way to make a MMO with single player without doing something like completely saying no to allow multiplayer in specific content, which just basically negates the whole point of the game.
No different from countless other games. "oh no, that dude has the exact same face as my dude... AND the same leet shoulder pads!". Sorry but this is extreme nitpicking of the highest order when other games are not even doing the same thing, but then asking for the impossible when they actually try to do something unique. You got "media" like that making comments are just obviously incredibly pessemistic when they can apply the exact same complaints against pretty much every other game in the genre.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
Signed up with my work laptop (that for some reason has 8GB of RAM), hope I can get into the beta.
Vigilant Walrus said:
About your characters being the same - thats not necessarily how it works. First of, you have party members called companions which are very much like your KOTOR equivalent. They have stories and opinions on everything. Secondly, the chances of you picking the same type of player in a group is actually quite rare - considering that at least in the high end content, you will want to have an even spread of class types.
As for immersion, you have a valid point. But I fail to see how this is a fair argument in video games. It's like complaining that the boss you fight is the same every time you do a 5man instance, is it not?
Confused101
Member
There's no way I'm getting into beta as I just signed up about a month ago but I can hope! All these glowing opinions are making me go crazy. I've done a good job of forgetting about this game ever since it was announced but now all this great information and game play stuff is getting released and I can't help but absorb it all.
Please BioWare, let me test your game! *bats eyelashes*
Please BioWare, let me test your game! *bats eyelashes*
Anasui Kishibe
Banned
Ignis Fatuus said:
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
1) I played WoW from the open beta of vanilla to max level in Wrath of the Litch King. I dabbled in but did not enjoy Guild Wars. In fact, I don't really consider Guild Wars to be a real MMO. I also tried the beta for, but again did not enjoy, DC Universe Online.Vigilant Walrus said:
2) I don't have a political philosophy for MMOs. If it's fun and it works then it's fine by me. I'm not even sure what you'd consider sandbox and what you'd consider themepark.
3) I came in expecting no more than WoW in space and was pleasantly surprised to find that while there are some similarities, it is really quite different. I would say that most of the similarities are cosmetic, and that any decent length of time spent with the game will demonstrate that it is its own beast. As an addendum, some of the most enjoyable aspects for me bear no resemblance to any other MMO, but rather to KOTOR.
I have to tread carefully here but you should absolutely lay all doubts to rest about animation and combat. In fact, while playing the game, animation was one of the things that really impressed me. They used motion capture and it shows. They perfectly captured the essence of each class in the movements.PvP, Balance, animations and combat is still what looks iffy to me. I really have my doubts about the quality of this product
After a brief glance at those negative comments you posted, it's pretty obvious that these people were going off of a quick first impression and had not spent any reasonable amount of time with the game. It was only by the third world that I fully began to comprehend the scale of the game and explore all of the features I had overlooked because I had been treating it like WoW in space.
...and typing this post has consumed the ten minutes of my day that I will not spend playing this game. Toodles.
I havent been following this game that closely but do the classes or advanced classes still break up into the tank/dps/healer roles?
Because the thought of a WoW-like mmo with a story really doesnt do anything for me, especially since Ive never been the biggest sci-fi/Star Wars fan.
Because the thought of a WoW-like mmo with a story really doesnt do anything for me, especially since Ive never been the biggest sci-fi/Star Wars fan.
BattleMonkey
Member
Saige said:
You can somewhat mix up your class with it's role and your builds, the classes are not set in stone on a specific build and even advanced classes let you do multiple roles depending how you invest your advancement.
If your not into Star Wars and the whole WoW like MMO thing is not for you, then I really doubt you will enjoy this.
Sir Garbageman
Member
Saige said:
Someone can probably shed more light on this but from what I understand yes.
Did you have a look at the new advanced classes page?
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Nice to see a lot of classes (all of them maybe) have access to stealth.
Ok so advancement is like your talent tree, which means youre not stuck into always being a healer if you choose a certain advanced class. That sounds a bit better.BattleMonkey said:
Im not completely writing this game off, maybe Ill get into the beta or there will be a free trial later, but for now it doesnt sound like its for me.
That was one of the things I liked about Age of Conan. Made PvP a bit more interesting.water_wendi said:
Vigilant Walrus said:1) What's your history with MMOs?
2) What's your political standing on sandbox versus themepark MMOs?
3) Are you looking for WoW in Space or an alternative to current MMORPGs, or are you sick and fed up with current MMORPG conventions(quest, grinding, looking for groups like a bitch and son on...)?
The reason I ask, is that there has been quite some negativity coming out of e3.
Snippits from the pcgamer.com preview from e3.
Massively; http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/06/13/e3-2011-hands-on-impressions-of-star-wars-the-old-republic/
and from gameindustry.biz; http://furiousfanboys.com/2011/06/analyst-firm-unimpressed-with-the-old-republic/
PvP, Balance, animations and combat is still what looks iffy to me. I really have my doubts about the quality of this product
I know you weren't talking to me, but fuck it.
I have been playing MMO's for probably a decade now. Been in everything from PVP guilds to some of the top raiding guilds (in WoW) in the world. I love Sandbox games, Pre-CU SWG being one of my favorites, but I also enjoy Themeparks, since I have been playing WoW since beta. MMO's are my genre, and PC gaming is what I do. Since I have been playing them for so long, I can spot the problems, from a mathmatical DPS standpoint, to problems with pacing and environmental geometry (that can fuck up PVP). What am I looking for? A next-gen MMO. An mmo that does things previous never have. I do want some sandbox elements, but I also want some themepark ones. I love open worlds, hate to much instancing, enjoy dynamic aspects to crafting end-game, and don't always want my hand-held.
I am just going to list off some stuff, because I feel those articles misrepresent the game, and they are basing a huge portion of their feelings off such a small aspect/part of the game.
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- The leveling/story is single player
This isn't the case at all, and actually pretty stupid if you sit down and think about it. For 80 percent of quests you do, you can group up and play with whoever you want. Only on major parts of your story, will you be alone(and only in certain areas). Once you play the game, this makes complete sense. The story is your own, the choices you make influence it. The narrative is very concise, and although it leaves room for teaming up with others, the main plot is yours, and yours alone. Fortunately, the main plot is only part of what you do, and playing with others is something you not only can do, but at this point in the beta, NEED to do to finish everything the planet has to offer.
I can't think of another MMO that handles the leveling up experience like this. It is very much like a much better version of Mass Effect, however you never feel like you are NOT in an MMO. There are people around, you can group and play with friends, que for Warzones, go and do flashpoints/4+ content. What can't you do in SWTOR that you can do in other MMO's while "leveling"? They never bothered asking or answering that question.
What more do people want? Is 100 people standing around the same quest giver, who all look the same, taking the same quest, from the same NPC, while 70 percent of them skip the dialogue superior? No.
It's nice to point out certain faults of a game, but it's easy not to look at what the alternative is in the MMO space. No game, no MMO does leveling as well as SWTOR. I can't express to you how superior it is. I have not heard one person complain in game or on the forums, and the general consensus is, you can't go back to other MMO's after playing it.
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- The graphics are average/World
Currently, there are no options to adjust graphics. So when you first start playing, your initial impression is very good, you still see jaggies, and some textures seem a bit muddy but the overall feel and look is still impressive. The art direction on the other hand, is as good as a Blizzard game if not better.
However, since graphical options are not in-game, you can go into your videocard's control panel and force them. Which I did.
This takes SWTOR from, awesome art-direction/average graphical fidelity, to IMO, the best looking MMO made to date. Once you have AA and AF enabled, the textures become so crisp and clear, the models smooth out and it starts to look absolutely beautiful. The art-style lends it self so well, because it just looks how it should. I don't know how else to describe it.
Even when you max out games like Age of Connan or Aion, they still look a bit weird. They look good, but also looks like they are trying to accomplish something they just couldn't. A certain realistic feel that fell short.
SWTOR isn't like this. It just looks fucking good. The amount of detail in all the environments, the amount of unique textures and hand placed lighting is absolutely, phenomenal.
The worlds (that I have been on) look hand-crafted, are huge, and have an overall theme that fits their description perfectly. I think I have seen one object/building that was repeated so far, and it wasn't in my story. It was at the beginning of another classes, on a different starter planet. This is COMPLETELY different from other MMO's where a mass majority of the world is copy-pasted.
The World is also wide up. You can go where you want, when you want, for whatever reason you want. Only very specific rooms have instancing (if you can even call it that) for story purposes. It's seamless, and doesn't feel like instancing at all.
I will say this. If some of the guys from Bioware can give me permission to post a single screenshot, then anyone else can post their favorite screenshot, from their favorite MMO, on the highest-settings. I guarantee SWTOR looks better, and the only criticism you can have, is if you PERSONALLY, do not like the art-style.
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-Combat is not good
Whoever said this, doesn't play MMO's and clearly wants a god-of war type experience.
The combat in SWTOR is like an evolution of the combat in World of Warcraft. It takes out all the stuff that makes traditional combat in MMO's garbage, and replaces it with skill based choices. Auto-attack is gone, huge long cast bars are gone, mana is gone, accidental engage is gone, to much personal healing is gone, being able to get one hit, is gone.
Combat in SWTOR feels good. Every action you make, is decided by you. Not a canned animation, not auto-attacking for 30-40 percent of your overall damage. When you press an ability, you pull the trigger on your gun or swing your light saber.
It's tactical, what you do against another Jedi (who wields a melee weapon), may not work as well against what you do against a trooper(who uses a gun). For example, against another Jedi who uses melee weapons, and can thus get into a parry/dodge battle with me, I will use my force-powers first. If I am trying to kill a Smuggler, I am going to use all my melee abilities first, and save my force-powers until he is trying to run.
Ranged classes control different then other ranged classes. I can only describe it as playing a "melee" class, at range.
The animations are the best I have seen in an MMO. Particularly for the Jedi. You feel, and animate, like you are in an epic battle, much like the cinematic show. For ranged, you are not going to be as varied, but the animations they do have are all great. There are only so many ways to show people shooting runs and rolling into cover.
You are also not going to be one-hit by an opposing player. Combat is fast-paced ability and action wise, but the battles take a significant amount of time (in PVP, which I will touch on later).
Overall combat is fantastic. I have had a ton of fun with it, and I am someone who is completely sick of combat in World of Warcraft. Is it similar, yes, is it better? IMO, defiantly. Is it a directly copy? No, it really isn't. If you look at it from the standpoint if, Hey, I have some buttons to press then yes. But if you step back and look at what makes World of Warcraft's combat what it is, some of the fundamental design philosophy's have been changed by the team working on SWTOR. The best way to put it is, if you took SWTOR's combat model, and put it in WoW with all their abilities and damages, wold it completely break the game? Yes it would, so how can it be a direct copy?
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-PVP
Can't speak much on PVP yet. A couple war-zones exist. You already know about the Alderan one. They are both fun, but it's still very much like BG's. You are very well rewarded for doing them, and they are defiantly beneficial for you in all aspects of the game, both leveling and end-game.
I won't go into much detail as most is under NDA.
All I can say is, the combat lends it-self very well to PVP. It seems like they had PVP in mind when designing it, not PVE. It's easier for me to imagine this game as a full-on PVP one, then it is trying to wrap my head around raiding once you reach max level.
In terms of open-world PVP. Can't speak much about it. Don't know much about it. It's my favorite form of PVP. I hope it's embraced.
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It's a WoW clone re-skinned
Never heard of the site who said this, I imagine they are just the typical justin.tv streaming idiot. It's not a WoW clone.
Here are the similartie: They both have open worlds, they both have PVP and BG's, they both allow you to track quests. They both make you press buttons. They both have PVE. What a fucking WoW clone indeed.
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I am not at end-game. I can't make judgements on it. I know what keeps people playing in the long run is end-game content. I also know what keeps a huge portion of people palying is dynamic, sandbox style features. I can't predict if this game will fail or be a hit. For what I played, it's a next-generation MMO that takes things you know and love from all the others, and adds in their own dynamic and features unique to SWTOR and Bioware in general.
When I read what PCgamer wrote, I wonder to myself if they actually play MMO's. If they were to afraid of saying to many good things about the game, and were forced to put in a couple negatives for objectivity's sake. They didn't even play past level 10, and were saying shit like this:
What a stupid position to take. Hey guys, no reason to play for the other 70 percent of the features SWTOR offers, even though we never got to try any of it. Of course, I am only talking about PC gamer. The other publications I have never heard of, or in a case like massively, laugh because I know their writers are clueless and have specific agenda's, both for swtor(their editor), and against it. They also take personal bias into their articles and will bash a game for not giving the experience THEY want from it, regardless of what the actual team was aiming for and if they accomplish it.
I have my criticisms of the game for sure. There are certain things I hope get added or expanded upon, or flat out changed From what I played, it's pretty revolutionary for the genre, but I have not played most of the game yet. Which is the remarkable part. It could be a non-end game having flop, it could turn out wildly successful. All I know is from what I played, for the level that I am, it's very, very good.
The Lamonster
Member
I would be a little apprehensive about playing any MMO in it's first few months after launch. You just know there will be tons of unbalanced factors and bugs.
Saige said:
I don't understand how people expect the trinity (healer/dps/tank) to not be a part of an MMO. It's like asking a fps shooter not to have guns and some form of a healthbar.
You got better alternatives? I'd really like to know.
For the sake of plugging our little eurogaf guild:
Republic - Fonds, Syoaran
Empire - x
?: NoLimit_SS
Blackface said:
Amazing post man, clarified a lot of stuff. Hope you didn't have to break your NDA for that awesome post. <3 u
The Lamonster said:
Also part of the fun. Easily the best time I had in WoW (outside world 1st kills) was vanilla release, and each expansion release. The wave of positive energy from the social environment also makes the game a lot more engaging.
Still, I'm not sure what class to pick in TOR. Dual wield lightsabers is what my playstyle was like in KOTOR, but I gernally pick a healer class in MMO's because they are the most useful. However with the companions, I'm wondering if a tank is a better solution. Decisions....
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
The rest of your post is spot on but this is actually incorrect. It's under preferences in the main menu in game.Blackface said:
syoaran said:
If anything with companions it might actually be fun to do a healing class solo or tank class solo. The great thing about them is you will get companions of various disciplines and you can take a companion that meshes well with your style of play. Just pick the one you want to play as and then pick the companion that compliments it well
. The other thing is that even though an advanced class might be close to permanent choice, your 'spec' within it shouldn't be. Pick the class and advanced class that you will like to play the most often. I'm going to play a Consular Shadow and depending on the companions I get, I will choose whether I go tanking route or CC/DPS route.Ignis Fatuus
Banned
It is. They just aren't following up as directly with that plot. Their reasoning is that KOTOR2 was more behind the scenes. Meanwhile there are a lot of references to KOTOR1.syoaran said:
I do not have a better alternative, but then Im not a game designer so why would I work to reinvent the mmo genre?Fonds said:
All Im saying is that a major part of past mmos is group combat, so I would assume ToR will also focus on this. I do not think that the current trinity of roles is the one and only method of allowing players to work together within these sections of group combat. I dont know what else could work, but I would hope there are people smart enough to figure something out.
As for an fps without guns/healthbars, yes it would be easy to create a game without them. I assume by guns you do not mean shooting since that is a key aspect of the game that defines it as a first person shooter, so just have the player shoot projectiles through other means, like magic from their hand. And a one-shot kill system with eliminate the need for any type of healthbar or regen health.
DurielBlack
Member
The Lamonster said:
While you are quite correct about balance/bug issues I find the fresh starting experience to be quite worthwhile. Most MMO developers these days have learned the lesson that a MMO needs to launch with a certain minimal amount of polish. I haven't played the game (no fucking key), but from what other people have been saying TOR will definitely be worth playing at launch.
Did I say such a game would be good? I was only responding to him saying that it cannot be done.Dresden said:
And I didn't follow the game as well as other which is why I asked about the class roles. I didnt expect something innovative from ToR, but I thought it was worth asking. Sorry for trying to become informed about the game.
Nolimit_SS
Banned
Then I'll enjoy killing you /evilFonds said:
I'm going Empire and and either warrior-marauder or inquisitor-assassin 10000%
Gotta fulfill my nerd dreams haha
The_Squirrel_Menace
Member
Okay, I need some help here. Class path wise.
I'm looking at the new advanced class page on the swtor website.
So if I got it right, say I choose to be a Trooper. At level 10 I'll have to choose between Vanguard or Commando.
Both of them have shared tree while they have two disctinct tree. So far, I'm right? I assume you can dabble in the shared tree while speccing for a specific class tree?
Like a Trooper->Commando->Combat Medic and whatever spared points in other tree, Gunner or Assault (shared).
I'm looking at the new advanced class page on the swtor website.
So if I got it right, say I choose to be a Trooper. At level 10 I'll have to choose between Vanguard or Commando.
Both of them have shared tree while they have two disctinct tree. So far, I'm right? I assume you can dabble in the shared tree while speccing for a specific class tree?
Like a Trooper->Commando->Combat Medic and whatever spared points in other tree, Gunner or Assault (shared).
HarryDemeanor
Member
The_Squirrel_Menace said:
Yes, you will not be locked out of the 2 other trees if you're planning to go down a single path. You are free to spread your points around as you wish.
The_Squirrel_Menace said:
Yes. But remember, once you pick your AC, thats it. You basically stop being a trooper, and start being a Vanguard or COmmando.
I think they would have been better off calling the original 8 "Archetypes" and the Advanced Classes, Classes. It's not like tree's in WoW. You are basically a separate class.
Giolon
Member
Some of these other beta testers have been posting things that I am pretty sure is outside the permission of the NDA (though given how positive they are, Bioware/EA may not mind so much).
The only things we're expressly allowed to say are
1) That there is a beta
2) That we're in the beta.
I would love to give my opinions and impressions and comment on what others are saying - but I don't want to do anything to risk my involvement in the program. Given that Bioware/EA hangs around here, I'd suggest you all review the NDA to ensure you don't do something you regret.
The only things we're expressly allowed to say are
1) That there is a beta
2) That we're in the beta.
I would love to give my opinions and impressions and comment on what others are saying - but I don't want to do anything to risk my involvement in the program. Given that Bioware/EA hangs around here, I'd suggest you all review the NDA to ensure you don't do something you regret.
No? I wrote that since you made it seem that guns/health bars were integral to was an fps is, much like you seem to think that the tank/dps/healer roles are integral to what a mmo is.Fonds said:
I do not believe that this is the case. A mmo should be about player interactions and the community that forms in game. This to me is the biggest strength of the genre, and simply sticking to the tried and true trinity seems to make all mmos feel far too similar. looking for X (tank/dps/healer) for Y (instance/quest).
I dont want to derail the thread, I was simply asking if ToR was going to be the game that changes this structure since i honestly didnt know. I got my answer, and I did not mean to bash the game in any way.
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