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[Holden]

Wait, did they make warping in on ramps impossible along with the vision thing?

along with a pylon radius nerf and a WG timing change ( patch 1.3, or w.e) Wow this is just fucking dumb...

 

[Pancakes]

Informative post from TL:

While I admire the original poster's attempt to inspire hope in the hearts of all the protoss players, the protoss community and all the protoss fans, I can't help but feel that these innovators, don't have anything to innovate upon and that our hopes will be dashed upon the rocks and will crumble to pieces.

I am going to try and say this cleanly and efficiently.
The problem with protoss is not the lack of innovation, it is the lack of strength and the multitude of weaknesses that can be exploited.

This problem is most evident in the TvP match up and is grotesquely blown out of proportion by the 1/1/1 style of opening and variations.

Problem number 1 (P1). The protoss tier 1 and 1.5 is week against a basic tier 1.5 terran army without the use of specialist units (sentries, HT), or higher tech (colossis, HT). Marines do phenomenal DPS and in combination with Marauders are deadly because marauders can just kite zealots forever even with charge, and marauders also rip apart stalkers. This leads to problem number 2.

P2.Protoss specialist units are too easy to be countered and too expensive. Ghosts can EMP from a bigger range then a HT can feedback, EMP can potentially neutralize many HT and sentries while HT can only feedback 1 unit at a time. EMP also destroyes shields which in some cases means 50% of a protoss effective health. Ghosts contribute with real DPS even after their energy is spent, and they also do double damage against light (zealots). Ghosts with cloak can survive for a good time as well, which also puts into grave perspective problem number 3.

P3. Protoss don't have enough mobile detection, terran and zerg both have at least one more means of detection then a unit. Zerg has Overseers and Fungal growth, terran has EMP, Raven and scan. Not only do the terrans and zerg have more methods of detection, but their detector units also fulfill different roles and are stronger. The overseer can help with scouting via changeling and can also delay a critical tech or reinforcements with contaminate. Raven's provide invaluable support via point defense drone, and also have the potential to do massive damage with hunter seeker missile or harass a mineral line with auto-turrets. Lastly the detection of terran and protoss is more easily available, scans and EMPs are easy to get or already part of the terran arsenal, overseers are unlocked just by teching up to lair, and infestors are now part of many lineups.

Now, if you add up all the problems you get the following scenario.
Against a terran 1/1/1 a protoss is forced to get a robo so he can have detection. Because of the lack of other detection methods the protoss becomes predictable, if he doesn't get a robotics for observers he risks dying to cloaked banshees. Also observers are easy to snipe, they have the lowest HP of any detector, and once a scan goes of they are dead. Now because protoss was forced to get robo they now have to add immortals to the army, and while great against tanks, the backbone of a 1/1/1 is the marine, and mass marines rip apart immortals, and once immortals are dead, the T1 protoss army crumbles.

Normally in balance of RTS games, if units are very cheep they should be a lot weaker (zerg), if units are more expensive they should be stronger (protoss), however, protoss T1 units are really not that good for the amount they cost, zealots and stalkers are way too weak without sentries, and against a 1/1/1 sentries don't help all that much because tanks have huge range, do massive damage, and there are also banshees that can mess them over.

This problem is put into sharp focus in games where, you see a terran not expand, you see the protoss fast expand at min 4, and at 12 minutes into the game the terran has a bigger supply army then the protoss. Its a problem in game balance that a 1 base player could have equal or more supply then a player on 2 bases for 66% of the game. What is even more wrong is that the 1 base player's army is so strong that it can annihilate the 2 base player's army.

Now, if we look away from the 1/1/1 and focus on the meta game, in a late game scenario the protoss doesn't stand much chance. A terran bio ball is cheaper to replenish, is more durable because of medivacs, and it does more DPS then the standard tier 1.5 of protoss. Protoss needs sentries and HT or colossis, however, sentries and HT are easily countered by ghosts, colossis are easily countered by vikings. In a head to head fight, the terran just needs to have the patience to emp the specialists, snipe the colossis with vikings, then the bio ball an just do the rest. Also warp prism micro with HT isn't so hot because they can be sniped by vikings, just the same way colossis are sniped. To rub salt onto the wounds, EMP also directly reduce survivability of protoss units by destroying shields.

Now I ask, where can you innovate in there?
Protoss are already using 99% of their units, they use zealots, stalkers, sentries, HT, colossus, observer and warp prism. Protoss air force is weak, they Phoenix and Void rays are already easily countered by units the terran already gets, marines, vikings and ghosts. Carriers cost too much, take too much time to build and require too big numbers to be effective. Carriers in small number are easily sniped by vikings. Mothership is even worst because it can be EMPed from farther away then it can vortex, once EMPed it becomes a big meat shield waiting to die horribly to vikings and marines.

How can you innovate against a 1/1/1, when from the get go, you need to get a robo for detection? Also how can you innovate a build against the 1/1/1 when you risk creating a build that can completely counter the 1/1/1 but fail miserably to form of early pressure?

And, keep in mind that, terrans still haven't widely adopted the use of ravens and/or mass ravens. With patch 1.4 that might change because, seeker missiles will be able to outrun zealots even with charge, and stalkers and sentries and probles, and ravens also hard counter stalkers by reducing their DPS to 0 via PDD.

Against zerg the problems aren't quite as bad, but they aren't great either. The timings of 4 gates and 6 gates has been figured out. Protoss can't do 4 gate because it won't work, the zerg can prepare an appropriate defense while still having a 1 base advantage. If protoss chooses to fast expand into a 6 gate, the zerg can just take a quick 3rd, and can have defenses out in time for any form of protoss preasure. Air play can be easily countered by the proper and strategic placement of spore crawlers and building of extra queens (which zerg have already started doing). And if the protoss decides to not go air and go a 6 gate or robo+ a number of gates, then the zerg can still have an big enough army in time to defend against it, and still retain a 1 base advantage.

The recent game of Check.Prime vs Tails from IGN qualifiers is a good example of zerg being able to take a fast 3rd and come out ahead of a protoss FE. As for late game, infestors are a big double risk problem. Not only can they fungal the entire protoss army, but they can neural colossis, and/or archons. Fungal does respectable DPS, but more critically it leaves the protoss open to brood lords and baneling drops, both of which can do massive damage.

Again, carriers and motherships won't help, they still take too long to build, cost too much, are too vulnerable to corrupters, and worst, are vulnerable to neurals.

The only conclusion I can draw is that, protoss doesn't have anything to innovate upon, they are already using all their tools, and now that terran and zerg have started to fully use their tools the cracks are starting to show. I really wish I was wrong here but, it trully feels like it will take either a very big patch (1.4 won't cut it), or the expansion to fix the current protoss problems.

And while all this situation might really suck and demoralize a lot of players, lets have faith and remember that SC2 is only 1 year old, hopefully we will be looking back at this period in time and remember it was the darkness before the dusk, the calm before the storm. Change will come, even if Blizzard has to act.

 

[Sliver]

Anyone else not able to play right now? Patcher isn't launching when I start the game, just crashes when I get into login. Repair does nothing.

 

[Pandaman]

T, T, T terran, T, 1/1/1, terran, 1/1/1, 1/1/1, T, terran, 1/1/1, nerf zerg too because i cant derpgate anymore and checkprime beat a nobody.

yea, very informative.

 

[Holden]

the bullshit about forge fast expand is true, i mean ret vs naniwa shows how easy its to abuse it, i don't even forge expand anymore, even on shakuras

 

[Pancakes]

T, T, T terran, T, 1/1/1, terran, 1/1/1, 1/1/1, T, terran, 1/1/1, nerf zerg too because i cant derpgate anymore and checkprime beat a nobody.

yea, very informative.

So there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of the races and we should just stop trying to find a solution.

Gotcha.

 

[Pandaman]

So there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of the races and we should just stop trying to find a solution.

Gotcha.

alternatively, admitting there is a problem doesn't mean we should take every alarmist battle.net forum suggestion to heart.

 

[Tntnnbltn]

Wait, did they make warping in on ramps impossible along with the vision thing?

Yes. It was on the PTR and everything.

 

[jasonng]

T, T, T terran, T, 1/1/1, terran, 1/1/1, 1/1/1, T, terran, 1/1/1, nerf zerg too because i cant derpgate anymore and checkprime beat a nobody.

yea, very informative.

I had plan on writing a relevant response but fuck this just gets directly to the point I wanted to make.

 

[PhoenixDark]

The article's take on ZvP is laughable. "bububu cleverly placed spore crawlers shut down my air harass!" Also, complaining about 1 base beating 2 base is odd. Of course an all in will lead to higher supply count/army in the short term - the other player cuts SCVs/drones/probes and just builds units. If you survive the all in, you win.

It's certainly true Terran Barracks units destroy Toss Gate units, but what can be done? Buffing Stalkers would just make blink imbalanced. If anything, the Maurader is what ruins balance not only in TvP but TvZ to a certain extent. They're pretty much an autowin button against Toss early. Their damage and unit speed should be nerfed, and I'd remove Concussive Shells.

I'd like to see Carriers made viable, perhaps by increasing their health and range (and lowering the cost).

 

[V_Arnold]

This problem is put into sharp focus in games where, you see a terran not expand, you see the protoss fast expand at min 4, and at 12 minutes into the game the terran has a bigger supply army then the protoss. Its a problem in game balance that a 1 base player could have equal or more supply then a player on 2 bases for 66% of the game. What is even more wrong is that the 1 base player's army is so strong that it can annihilate the 2 base player's army.

Alright, now let us take a step back and realize what this suggests.
To me, this suggests that someone who took all the time to post that believes that if you go 2base (meaning you are AHEAD of your opponent by one base), you should reap the rewards less than 8 minutes into the game.

Now, this is bad. Bad. Dudes who stay on one base SHOULD have a timing. No matter if it is 8 mins or 10 mins, or even 12 mins, there should be a reward if you prepared with a one base tactic and your opponent goes two base. If there should not be, then Protoss players should be able to do, what? Hide behind force fielding until they are unstoppable because of the more insane economy leading to bigger army? And this should not be punished by a one-basing allin? Why?

I'd like to see Carriers made viable, perhaps by increasing their health and range (and lowering the cost).

Take one of the mentioned three, and there you go. Take all three and it is straight up imba.

 

[Pancakes]

I had plan on writing a relevant response but fuck this just gets directly to the point I wanted to make.

I'd like to hear it regardless.

The article's take on ZvP is laughable. "bububu cleverly placed spore crawlers shut down my air harass!" Also, complaining about 1 base beating 2 base is odd. Of course an all in will lead to higher supply count/army in the short term - the other player cuts SCVs/drones/probes and just builds units. If you survive the all in, you win.

It's certainly true Terran Barracks units destroy Toss Gate units, but what can be done? Buffing Stalkers would just make blink imbalanced. If anything, the Maurader is what ruins balance not only in TvP but TvZ to a certain extent. They're pretty much an autowin button against Toss early. Their damage and unit speed should be nerfed, and I'd remove Concussive Shells.

I'd like to see Carriers made viable, perhaps by increasing their health and range (and lowering the cost).

The main problem with Carriers are the nerfed interceptors. IIRC in BW interceptors healed themselves when they went back into the carrier. In SC2 more often than not, you end up with giant flying paper weights since marines can just wreck the interceptors.

Not to mention the crazy range of Vikings basically shutting them down anyway.

 

[nilbog21]

so, how do you beat colossus and terran mech now with zerg?

 

[Hazaro]

T, T, T terran, T, 1/1/1, terran, 1/1/1, 1/1/1, T, terran, 1/1/1, nerf zerg too because i cant derpgate anymore and checkprime beat a nobody.

yea, very informative.

.

I'd like to hear it regardless.



The main problem with Carriers are the nerfed interceptors. IIRC in BW interceptors healed themselves when they went back into the carrier. More often than not, you end up with giant flying paper weights since marines can just wreck the interceptors.

Not to mention the crazy range of Vikings basically shutting them down anyway.

Yeah but they have double the Damage and start off with 4 interceptors (-100 minerals).

They have to be a support unit. Chargelot/Archon/Carrier seems totally viable.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Take one of the mentioned three, and there you go. Take all three and it is straight up imba.

Given how effective Vikings and Corrupters can be against them, plus the interceptor issue Hazzaro raised, I'm not sure it would be a problem. Obviously they would destroy Zerg ground units, but perhaps that would convince Blizz to finally make Hydras viable

The point of Carriers should be to back up a Toss army as a siege unit, not lead the charge per se.

 

[V_Arnold]

Given how effective Vikings and Corrupters can be against them, plus the interceptor issue Hazzaro raised, I'm not sure it would be a problem. Obviously they would destroy Zerg ground units, but perhaps that would convince Blizz to finally make Hydras viable

The point of Carriers should be to back up a Toss army as a siege unit, not lead the charge per se.

So now you are imagining Vikings and Corruptors (otherwise totally useless units against a P ground force) to just be "there" in the game whenever you make Carriers, right? Why is this the case? This game does not work like that. If it did, everyone would just turtle until they have "the" unit, and win. Carriers could be potentially like that. Imagine what 25 carrier would do to Z/T's when they could not be effective against them with masses of Vikings/Corruptors.

 

[Pancakes]

I've always thought that the Hydra and Roach should be switched on the tech tree (with damage normalization). And perhaps an added speed buff upgrade on the Hydra den.

 

[Hazaro]

So now you are imagining Vikings and Corruptors (otherwise totally useless units against a P ground force) to just be "there" in the game whenever you make Carriers, right? Why is this the case? This game does not work like that. If it did, everyone would just turtle until they have "the" unit, and win. Carriers could be potentially like that. Imagine what 25 carrier would do to Z/T's when they could not be effective against them with masses of Vikings/Corruptors.

The better question is:
Why make Carriers when I can make Collosus?

Both countered by Vikings. One is better vs MMM. The other also countered more by marines. One tech is faster as well. Both as mobile.

 

[Deadman]

omg platinum 2v2 yesssssss

 

[PhoenixDark]

So now you are imagining Vikings and Corruptors (otherwise totally useless units against a P ground force) to just be "there" in the game whenever you make Carriers, right? Why is this the case? This game does not work like that. If it did, everyone would just turtle until they have "the" unit, and win. Carriers could be potentially like that. Imagine what 25 carrier would do to Z/T's when they could not be effective against them with masses of Vikings/Corruptors.

Viking and Corrupter are useless against P ground force? Ok..

If you let your opponent mass (buffed) Carriers, Battlecruisers, etc guess what? You're probably going to lose. That's what scouting is for. The unit definitely needs to be buffed - how Blizz gets there who knows. It just needs to happen. And that's coming from a Zerg player

 

[V_Arnold]

The better question is:
Why make Carriers when I can make Collosus?

Both countered by Vikings. One is better vs MMM. The other also countered more by marines. One tech is faster as well. Both as mobile.

This now, is an amazing observance.
The problem lies within Colossi's range upgrade, I think. Zergs have Brood Lords as "turtle breakers", Terrans have Siege Tanks and to a certain extent Yamato BC's, and P's should have Carriers and Colossi. Both being suspectible to the same counter is HORRIBLE design. Horrible.

But that imho, is a flaw in Colossus itself. It needed that extra vulnerability, otherwise it would be too good against Terran. Only thing it could save a T against a Viking-less world is mass siege tanks, but then...same building can build Immortals aswell.

Game balance - just like karma - is a bitch.
But I think that Carriers should have its own niche. Poking where P's poke with Void Rays. Except that against a Carrier, having 5-10 marines should not be nearly as good of an idea.

 

[Hazaro]

This now, is an amazing observance.
The problem lies within Colossi's range upgrade, I think. Zergs have Brood Lords as "turtle breakers", Terrans have Siege Tanks and to a certain extent Yamato BC's, and P's should have Carriers and Colossi. Both being suspectible to the same counter is HORRIBLE design. Horrible.

But that imho, is a flaw in Colossus itself. It needed that extra vulnerability, otherwise it would be too good against Terran. Only thing it could save a T against a Viking-less world is mass siege tanks, but then...same building can build Immortals aswell.

Game balance - just like karma - is a bitch.
But I think that Carriers should have its own niche. Poking where P's poke with Void Rays. Except that against a Carrier, having 5-10 marines should not be nearly as good of an idea.

Sub in Viking for Goliath. Change Viking to wraith.
SC II 20% more balanced. Having AA be an air unit just lets you stack and it is awful.
Also Carrier survivability is low because Vikings can just chase.

Dat control
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cgVRjxvRdVc#t=1365s

 

[Awesome Animals]

Sum of the coL MyM Stephano and Naniwa situation so far...

 

[Hazaro]

Once Naniwa heard that Stephano was staying in France, Naniwa wanted to back out of the Complexity deal and stay with Dignitas, but Dignitas can't afford to renew his contract anymore because they'd already planned on Naniwa going to coL and has reassigned those funds to acquiring teamless SaSe.

Lol what

MC and the tank are at a standstill for hours. Moletrap arrives to interrupt, but he has a hard time analyzing what's going on and eventually leaves.

I lost it.

 

[Deadman]

In half an hour

Korea Round 1 of the MLG Global Invitational. Matches tonight:

IMMVP <> EG.Puma
IMLosira <> Liquid`Hero
MMA <> SlayerS`Boxer
Bomber <> CoCa

Site: http://www.MLG.tv

I assume jp/artosis again.

 

[Hazaro]

In half an hour



I assume jp/artosis again.

Looks one sided, but should be a good watch I think.

 

[HolyCheck]

well, he managed to 2-0 everyone in that Chinese recent tournament so i think he is doing pretty good now.

Xigua is the real force. WCG will show this. Also IEM is in China next, the chinese lineup isn't the strongest but should be good to watch

 

[V_Arnold]

Hazaro, I hate Goliath design, tbh (Not gameplay-wise, but their looks).

 

[Hazaro]

Hazaro, I hate Goliath design, tbh (Not gameplay-wise, but their looks).

Clunky movement I don't like, esp their walking animation and glare in SC1. In SC II they look like stupid toys as well.
Pilot and sounds are fantastic though.

 

[Kuro Madoushi]

Clunky movement I don't like, esp their walking animation and glare in SC1. In SC II they look like stupid toys as well.

How's that Void Ray rush working out for you, Ner-Oh? Yes, I'll troll you in this thread too.

 

[Awesome Animals]

Lol what

I lost it.

I loved the whole thing, 10/10

 

[Dooraven]

mvp v puma o.o

http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MLG_Live

 

[Pancakes]

Wow, did everyone on ladder become an idiot after I left?

The last 3 protoss players I've gone up against have tried a dumb mass immortal build (probably because of the buff) and they wonder how they lose to a stargate build.

And yes my entire army is on 1 hotkey, deal with it.

 

[Dooraven]

I wish all PvPs turned into Pheonix Blink Stalker battles off 2-4 bases.

 

[Deadman]

On inside the game idra just said hes mindboggled by how easy his mlg group is. Says its the easiest possible group of the 20 players in pools.


I think ill be quoting this back during mlg

 

[Pancakes]

On inside the game idra just said hes mindboggled by how easy his mlg group is. Says its the easiest possible group of the 20 players in pools.


I think ill be quoting this back during mlg

Hey now, maybe he found his leather gracket again.

 

[Dooraven]

Well, at least idra admits that he sucks v protoss now and not that protoss is op lol.

 

[HolyCheck]

XiGua was meant to go to MLG Orlando too, ffs.

 

[Deadman]

Idra says the 5 seconds on the rax and drone attack change have really helped early zvt. Sure hope nestea doesnt die to bunkers the day before it changes in korea.

 

[Dooraven]

Incontrol is destroying idra at the moment. lol.

 

[nilbog21]

day 9 streaming D3. looks pretty sick

http://www.twitch.tv/day9tv

 

[Dooraven]

Well MVP v Puma wasn't even close.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Idra says the 5 seconds on the rax and drone attack change have really helped early zvt. Sure hope nestea doesnt die to bunkers the day before it changes in korea.

Ah just read the drone change. I always thought it was weird my drones seemed to attack a couple times then get lazy, whereas an SCV/probe will follow you until you die; hell, I'm surprised they don't follow units into drop ships and kill them.

 

[Dooraven]

Oh lol incontrol is one fire tonight. SOTG today should be pretty good lol.

 

[StopMakingSense]

Oh lol incontrol is one fire tonight. SOTG today should be pretty good lol.

It's going to be a very broodwar centric episode.

 

[Zen]

Incontrol is destroying idra at the moment. lol.

Oh lol incontrol is one fire tonight. SOTG today should be pretty good lol.

Where is this?

 

[Dooraven]

Where is this?

Inside the game. It just finished now

 

[jasonng]

I'd like to hear it regardless.

I won't comment on his view of TvP. He is spot on because what he mentions is already known. He just clarifies why there's a lack of innovation. What I have a problem with is how he gave PvZ an afterthought.

He's upset because we finally learned how to hold off n gate timing push? He's talking about innovation, forge expand gives you an immense amount of choices. Definitely more choices than the zerg, especially given that we can't scout what's popping out of your gates all the time. We have to be extremely disciplined in order to read your army composition and if we don't react accordingly, we're done. Period. Zerg taking their third after a forge expands leaves them vulnerable to harass, let alone an all in.

TL;DR, read panda's post.

 

[cdyhybrid]

Ah just read the drone change. I always thought it was weird my drones seemed to attack a couple times then get lazy, whereas an SCV/probe will follow you until you die; hell, I'm surprised they don't follow units into drop ships and kill them.

You said you were going Ultras vs. T, how is that working out? Ling Infestor into Ultra?

 

[PhoenixDark]

You said you were going Ultras vs. T, how is that working out? Ling Infestor into Ultra?

I wanted to try them out given the patch buff, and I thought it worked well. Started out Ling/Muta and transitioned to Infestor/Ultra/ling. Managed to catch a couple Terran players off guard. Flanked the tanks with the Ultras and came in with lings from another direction. I don't know if it will be more viable than just getting Brood Lords to break siege tanks instead though.

Gonna play around with Ultras against Toss tonight.