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//: StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty |OT3| GL HF NO GG

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A

AdventureRacing

Member
Wait so mutas suck against toss? That's pretty much my standard game against toss and i win 80% of my games (though admittedly lots do end before mutas).

Really looking forward to the code A qualifiers.
 
K

kunu

Member
What's considered a good build that is adaptable for new people playing Protoss? For some reason I'm still in silver league even though I've lost so many in a row. I'm hoping that I got moved accordingly soon, because this many losses is quite disheartening and I want to play people of my caliber.
 
T

TheThunder

Member
Dooraven said:
Startale v IM: First Matchup = Bomber v MVP
Prime v Slayers: First Matchup = MKP v Taeja

I don't think IM is too happy about their 4-0 loss to FXO lol nor Startale about their 4-2 loss to NSH
Click to expand...
wow this is serious :lol

Won't be surprised if IM coach wouldn't even spare NesTea, he wants the win no matter what.
 
K

Keikaku

Member
PvP: 4 gate, 2-gate Robo, 3-gate blink stalkers (It is 3 gate, not 4 right? I haven't played P in a long time)
PvT, PvZ: 3-gate expand
 
C

clav

Member
kunu said:
What's considered a good build that is adaptable for new people playing Protoss? For some reason I'm still in silver league even though I've lost so many in a row. I'm hoping that I got moved accordingly soon, because this many losses is quite disheartening and I want to play people of my caliber.
Click to expand...
Share some replays if you really want to get better.

Why do you think you are losing your games?

Colossus stalker deathball or zealot templar/archon is popular.
 
D

Dooraven

Member
kunu said:
What's considered a good build that is adaptable for new people playing Protoss? For some reason I'm still in silver league even though I've lost so many in a row. I'm hoping that I got moved accordingly soon, because this many losses is quite disheartening and I want to play people of my caliber.
Click to expand...

In silver, just focus on your mechanics and macro, the best way to do that is just practice a build repeatedly.
As Protoss, just ensure you can do good forcefields, because if you can't then most builds will be pretty bad and just make sure you can scout cheeses and defend them properly. (Do this first)

2 gate robo expand vs Terran is the best type of build at lower levels, vs terran. If you want to do an allin, practise the 3 gate VR allin.

vs Zerg, do a 3 gate sentry expand, it doesn't usally work in pro levels due to the losira roach timing but in lower levels Zergs probably can't pull it off. On maps where you can forge fast expand (basically small choke in natural) into stargate do that but Patrol for Nyduses.

Giving some of your replays would help too.

(It is 3 gate, not 4 right? I haven't played P in a long time)
Click to expand...

It's 3 gate until you finish your blink, then it's usally 4 gate.
 
K

kunu

Member
Dooraven said:
In silver, just focus on your mechanics and macro, the best way to do that is just practice a build repeatedly.
As Protoss, just ensure you can do good forcefields, because if you can't then most builds will be pretty bad and just make sure you can scout cheeses and defend them properly. (Do this first)

2 gate robo expand vs Terran is the best type of build at lower levels, vs terran. If you want to do an allin, practise the 3 gate VR allin.

vs Zerg, do a 3 gate sentry expand, it doesn't usally work in pro levels due to the losira roach timing but in lower levels Zergs probably can't pull it off. On maps where you can forge fast expand (basically small choke in natural) into stargate do that but Patrol for Nyduses.

Giving some of your replays would help too.



It's 3 gate until you finish your blink, then it's usally 4 gate.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tips, I'll look up those builds soon.

See, the thing is, I'm severely lacking in fundamentals, such as scouting/defending against cheese. I don't really know how to spot cheese, let alone defend against it.
 
C

clav

Member
kunu said:
Thanks for the tips, I'll look up those builds soon.

See, the thing is, I'm severely lacking in fundamentals, such as scouting/defending against cheese. I don't really know how to spot cheese, let alone defend against it.
Click to expand...
Put some replays up.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
Dooraven said:
Pretty good interview with the Complexity CEO about Esports
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72oUUxllUrc&feature=player_embedded
Click to expand...

Great interview

Lots of good points all around. It's clear many of these companies have realized the Korean players won't be surpassed any time soon, and they're getting into that market right before it explodes. With BW on its last legs and contracts ending in August, I expect SC2 to really explode there in the next year or two; so EG, Complexity, and other teams that have gained Korean players will stand to gain from that.

I can't really imagine the US/EU competing with Korea anytime soon. Maybe the business expansion will lead to more gaming houses opening up like EG's, but who knows. Luckily the fans seem content to cheer for Koreans as much as foreigners. Given Europeans have established their gaming houses faster, I expect them to really leap ahead of the US even more soon, and perhaps challenge Koreans. Whitera is already good enough to be in the GSL right now imo
 
H

hamchan

Member
kunu said:
What's considered a good build that is adaptable for new people playing Protoss? For some reason I'm still in silver league even though I've lost so many in a row. I'm hoping that I got moved accordingly soon, because this many losses is quite disheartening and I want to play people of my caliber.
Click to expand...

Silver league is not much better than Bronze league honestly. Just focus on building probes and not getting supply blocked. Even if you get cheesed and lose don't worry about it, first objective is to improve your macro, you'll learn how to spot a cheese with experience.
 
D

Dooraven

Member
kunu said:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/10980

Here's a replay from earlier today. The map is Searing Crater. Thanks for all the help guys.
Click to expand...

Alright I'm going to give a detailed explanation of what you did wrong soon (when I have time, probably in 2-3 hours once I come back from Uni) but essentially why you lost was that you did a 4 gate that was extremely late (a good 2-2.5 minutes late) and the Zerg had 2 saturated bases and had 1/1 on his roaches. 4 gate is essentially a timing attack and anything that delays that timing is going to hurt it significantly. Also keep in mind to always scout on 9 after your pylon against Zerg, it's too risky to scout on 13. Your wall was also pretty bad but that didn't really matter this game.
 
K

kunu

Member
Dooraven said:
Alright I'm going to give a detailed explanation of what you did wrong soon (when I have time, probably in 2-3 hours once I come back from Uni) but essentially why you lost was that you did a 4 gate that was extremely late (a good 2-2.5 minutes late) and the Zerg had 2 saturated bases and had 1/1 on his roaches. 4 gate is essentially a timing attack and anything that delays that timing is going to hurt it significantly. Also keep in mind to always scout on 9 after your pylon against Zerg, it's too risky to scout on 13. Your wall was also pretty bad but that didn't really matter this game.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I appreciate it. I'm still learning the whole hotkeys and the general mechanics behind all that so hopefully my timing will get better. I'll try out the builds mentioned in this thread and post some replays from those as well.
 
B

BigAT

Member
Feels good man.

DRWpG.jpg
 
B

Birdman02

Member
I absolutely suck against early rushes right now. I have won every macro game I've played in season 3 (granted, that's only like 10 games), but all of my losses are against early rushes/cheese. :mad:
 
A

AdventureRacing

Member
BigAT said:
Feels good man.

DRWpG.jpg
Click to expand...

I actually do feel this way against protoss right now lol.

Birdman02 said:
I absolutely suck against early rushes right now. I have won every macro game I've played in season 3 (granted, that's only like 10 games), but all of my losses are against early rushes/cheese. :mad:
Click to expand...

Post some replays we might be able to help (and if you're zerg i could probably use the advice as well lol).
 
C

clav

Member
kunu said:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/10980

Here's a replay from earlier today. The map is Searing Crater. Thanks for all the help guys.
Click to expand...
Before you try out builds, your core mechanics and basic understanding of the game need to be stronger.

1. Worker Rally

Rally your probes to Nexus first as you build your first probe.

2.. Hotkeys and Keyboard Shortcuts

At the very least, your Nexus needs to be hotkeyed. I like to use the number 6 as my Nexus, where as other people like using the number 5.

Gateways can be hotkeyed to the number 4 or 5, so you can just mash G shortcut key when they appear.

Learn the keyboard build shortcuts as from your apm, I think you're using your mouse to click the entire time. To help you learn the keyboard shortcuts, do the following:

http://i.imgur.com/Yt6PQ.jpg

This will put large letters over your hotkey commands, so you can easily find them without hovering your mouse over the units/move keys.

3. Scouting

I like to scout after 9 pylon because most likely zerg opponents in your league will most likely do 6 pools. What's important is to see when that pool goes down for a zerg player.

As you learn the game more, you can learn about looking for when the second hatchery is planted and how much gas is harvested.

Concentrate on the 9 pylon and pool for now.

4. 4 Gate

Warp Gate normally finishes at 5:50. Yours finished at about 6:45. That's a minute late.

Why did that happen?

Rather than dedicating all your chrono boost for probes, dedicate that chrono boost to the warpgate research instead. It takes five full chrono boosts to finish warpgate as fast as possible if you want to do the 4 gate.

You can start saving your Chrono after two chrono boosts (one at 10 and one at 12).

4 Gate is pretty much all-in. If your attack fails and you didn't leave a mark, then you're pretty much screwed.

Warp in your units as soon as your warp gate is finished as I saw you build your forward pylon before you had your army. Build the forward pylon after the first 4 warp-ins.

5. Macro.

What's hard about protoss is keeping up with those warp-ins as if you don't warp in a unit when the gateways cool down, you are punished for each second that goes by.

One base can barely support a 4 gate. From the replay, you were keeping eyes on the fight and started producing units when you thought your army was screwed. Rather than looking at the fight most of the time, concentrate on making more units near your pylons and building pylons.

How are you warping in your units?

If you're just going to mass stalker, then press W, S, hold shift and click as fast as you can.

6. Rock Paper Scissors.

Understand what Protoss unit is strong against what enemy units, so that later down the line, you know what to build. If you haven't already, play the Challenge missions located in the Single Player tab.
 
A

AdventureRacing

Member
claviertekky said:
This will put large letters over your hotkey commands, so you can easily find them without hovering your mouse over the units/move keys.
Click to expand...

Lol i'm in diamond and i didn't know this. I will try this out today.
 
K

kunu

Member
claviertekky said:
Before you try out builds, your core mechanics and basic understanding of the game need to be stronger.

1. Worker Rally

Rally your probes to Nexus first as you build your first probe.

2.. Hotkeys and Keyboard Shortcuts

At the very least, your Nexus needs to be hotkeyed. I like to use the number 6 as my Nexus, where as other people like using the number 5.

Gateways can be hotkeyed to the number 4 or 5, so you can just mash G shortcut key when they appear.

Learn the keyboard build shortcuts as from your apm, I think you're using your mouse to click the entire time. To help you learn the keyboard shortcuts, do the following:

http://i.imgur.com/Yt6PQ.jpg

This will put large letters over your hotkey commands, so you can easily find them without hovering your mouse over the units/move keys.

3. Scouting

I like to scout after 9 pylon because most likely zerg opponents in your league will most likely do 6 pools. What's important is to see when that pool goes down for a zerg player.

As you learn the game more, you can learn about looking for when the second hatchery is planted and how much gas is harvested.

Concentrate on the 9 pylon and pool for now.

4. 4 Gate

Warp Gate normally finishes at 5:50. Yours finished at about 6:45. That's a minute late.

Why did that happen?

Rather than dedicating all your chrono boost for probes, dedicate that chrono boost to the warpgate research instead. It takes five full chrono boosts to finish warpgate as fast as possible if you want to do the 4 gate.

You can start saving your Chrono after two chrono boosts (one at 10 and one at 12).

4 Gate is pretty much all-in. If your attack fails and you didn't leave a mark, then you're pretty much screwed.

Warp in your units as soon as your warp gate is finished as I saw you build your forward pylon before you had your army. Build the forward pylon after the first 4 warp-ins.

5. Macro.

What's hard about protoss is keeping up with those warp-ins as if you don't warp in a unit when the gateways cool down, you are punished for each second that goes by.

One base can barely support a 4 gate. From the replay, you were keeping eyes on the fight and started producing units when you thought your army was screwed. Rather than looking at the fight most of the time, concentrate on making more units near your pylons and building pylons.

How are you warping in your units?

If you're just going to mass stalker, then press W, S, hold shift and click as fast as you can.

6. Rock Paper Scissors.

Understand what Protoss unit is strong against what enemy units, so that later down the line, you know what to build. If you haven't already, play the Challenge missions located in the Single Player tab.
Click to expand...

Wow, I really appreciate the in-depth post!

I had a few quick questions:

What do you mean by rallying probes to nexus as I build my first probe?

For macro, should I concentrate on building up a big army first and then attacking? I wasn't sure on what you meant there.

And for scouting: if I do see a zerg doing 6 pool or something similar, how do I counter this? Do I continue with my build or do I adapt? (and I guess if I do adapt, this is where the rock, paper, scissors comes into play?)
 
C

clav

Member
kunu said:
What do you mean by rallying probes to nexus as I build my first probe?
Click to expand...

My comment was a nit picky thing. You did it in that replay after the first probe was built but it wasn't mining, so I'm just suggesting to do it earlier as the 1st probe is building.

kunu said:
For macro, should I concentrate on building up a big army first and then attacking? I wasn't sure on what you meant there.
Click to expand...

For now, I'm just referring to your 4 gate push as I suppose you can refine that as you will need this later battling out PvP.

4 Gate is an all-in push. You basically are catching your opponent at a time that if he/she were to expand, they would basically be dead, so it's absolutely critical to not hesitate. Move out once the 4 warp gate is completed and and begin warping units immediately. Attack the main base once the forward pylon is secured. Keep on reinforcing your army and continue to build additional pylons as needed.

Later, when you feel you mastered 4 gate or hit a wall (opponents who can fend off 4 gate), it'll be time for you to learn other builds (longer games) like 3 gate expo, 1 gate cyber 20 nexus + 2 gate, 3 gate blink, or 15 nexus, then you will have to learn to keep producing probes, making pylons, and maintaining an army while fighting.

kunu said:
And for scouting: if I do see a zerg doing 6 pool or something similar, how do I counter this? Do I continue with my build or do I adapt? (and I guess if I do adapt, this is where the rock, paper, scissors comes into play?)
Click to expand...

You will learn how to hold off 6 pool best with experience, so all I can tell you are guiding principles. The rest is up to your execution.

A 6 pool is an all-in build. All-ins are basically if you can hold off this attack, you will win the game with straight up solid mechanics (more units + bases than he does).

You will know it's a 6 pool if you arrived at the correct base, see only 5 drones and the pool is done. Some zergs at your level like to 10 pool to freak Protosses out.

To react, you have several options:

1. Stop probe production immediately. You need money to wall off now. Do not cancel the Gateway forming.

a. (100 mins) Pylon
b. (150 mins) Forge.
Make sure your wall is secure. As these two are warping in, feel free to make a few probes.
c. (150 mins) One Canon.

Hold off the attack. Resume probe production. Tech to warp gate, break down the wall, and push to finish your opponent.

2. Riskier depending on map size: If your gateway is done, rally the army point to the little crevice for your zealot, and chrono a zealot out. Put the Zealot on Hold position (Select Zealot and press H). Make additional Zealots and use probes if the lings get in.

Oh right. You need to learn about wall-offs against Zerg as I noticed you didn't have one in the replay.

http://wellplayed.org/forum/general-starcraft-ii/thread/season-3-maps-vol.-1-abyssal-caverns-pro

This may help. Adapt to what you see in terms of the building positioning. Typically someone who goes forge first is fast expanding for another Nexus.

For now, just learn the standard Gateway -> Cyber transition.

----------

So if you hold off a 6 pool, you will win. Just macro up a decent size army after warp gate and push.

----------

The rock papers scissors is to know your units strengths according to scouting in games that last longer than a 4 gate, so you know what to build when you peek at your opponent's army.

TL has a nice a wiki about unit uses and attributes: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Units

Post more questions + replays if you still feel like you're struggling with something.
 
C

cdyhybrid

Member
kunu said:
Wow, I really appreciate the in-depth post!

I had a few quick questions:

What do you mean by rallying probes to nexus as I build my first probe?

For macro, should I concentrate on building up a big army first and then attacking? I wasn't sure on what you meant there.

And for scouting: if I do see a zerg doing 6 pool or something similar, how do I counter this? Do I continue with my build or do I adapt? (and I guess if I do adapt, this is where the rock, paper, scissors comes into play?)
Click to expand...

I think he meant rally the probes coming out of your Nexus to the minerals.
 
F

fanboi

Banned
2349Y7RQ23U84PORJQ ÖLFKQJP 4U8MPRAISDKFÖ AKLJSDFOIJM,2Å+Q34908 3¨´M029485´09Q34,L5 ÅOAWKDFKOÖ ASDFKLM Å34895MÅ 5MÅ 5MÅ 5MÅ 5MÅ ASKLPDF Q34U905IMÅ 0AIOWERÅM, 089Å 50Q8EKÅFI9 90834M,´9+123´+940IQWÅEOKDFMÅ RM,Å390


3U1289031213




12IJ34ÅP1IO4å

Above text is as full of shit as ZvZ is.
 
A

AdventureRacing

Member
fanboi said:
2349Y7RQ23U84PORJQ ÖLFKQJP 4U8MPRAISDKFÖ AKLJSDFOIJM,2Å+Q34908 3¨´M029485´09Q34,L5 ÅOAWKDFKOÖ ASDFKLM Å34895MÅ 5MÅ 5MÅ 5MÅ 5MÅ ASKLPDF Q34U905IMÅ 0AIOWERÅM, 089Å 50Q8EKÅFI9 90834M,´9+123´+940IQWÅEOKDFMÅ RM,Å390


3U1289031213




12IJ34ÅP1IO4å

Above text is as full of shit as ZvZ is.
Click to expand...

There was a time i didn't like it but i love playing ZvZ now.
 
T

TheThunder

Member
fanboi said:
2349Y7RQ23U84PORJQ ÖLFKQJP 4U8MPRAISDKFÖ AKLJSDFOIJM,2Å+Q34908 3¨´M029485´09Q34,L5 ÅOAWKDFKOÖ ASDFKLM Å34895MÅ 5MÅ 5MÅ 5MÅ 5MÅ ASKLPDF Q34U905IMÅ 0AIOWERÅM, 089Å 50Q8EKÅFI9 90834M,´9+123´+940IQWÅEOKDFMÅ RM,Å390


3U1289031213




12IJ34ÅP1IO4å

Above text is as full of shit as ZvZ is.
Click to expand...
I endorse this post

Great match up to watch pros go at it

Shit match up to play
 
Q

Q8D3vil

Member
fanboi said:
2349Y7RQ23U84PORJQ ÖLFKQJP 4U8MPRAISDKFÖ AKLJSDFOIJM,2Å+Q34908 3¨´M029485´09Q34,L5 ÅOAWKDFKOÖ ASDFKLM Å34895MÅ 5MÅ 5MÅ 5MÅ 5MÅ ASKLPDF Q34U905IMÅ 0AIOWERÅM, 089Å 50Q8EKÅFI9 90834M,´9+123´+940IQWÅEOKDFMÅ RM,Å390


3U1289031213




12IJ34ÅP1IO4å

Above text is as full of shit as ZvZ is.
Click to expand...
all mirrors are dumb as fuck.
deal with it.
 
D

Dooraven

Member
fanboi said:
No no no...

TvT is awesome.

So stfu or I dragon punch you through my monitor!
Click to expand...

TvT used to awesome but now BFH just ruined it. Although you can get super awesome games if BFH doesn't do much damage
 
F

fanboi

Banned
Dooraven said:
TvT used to awesome but now BFH just ruined it. Although you can get super awesome games if BFH doesn't do much damage
Click to expand...

Well, I just saw Boxer vs Rain...

TVT will always be awesome.
 
F

fanboi

Banned
Jeff-DSA said:
If he always did commentary his numbers would probably double. His commentary on his own play was really, really good.
Click to expand...

Yeah, he is a really good commentator with great analyses.
 
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