Pai Pai Master
Banned
Yes you shouldn't curse at a cop when they tell you to do something, but that's never a reason your life should be at risk.
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Staten Island Grand Jury Does Not Indict in Eric Garner Case
- Thread starter Syriel
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plagiarize
Banned
In other words, the jury shouldn't take into account that the cop *believed* their life to be at risk. Or is that not covered under 'subjective beliefs'?
Based on what the cop saw, was it reasonable to think their life was at risk. In these cases I'm going with no. Maybe I'm wrong.
Based on Garner's video, nope, I don't believe any cop was at risk. The from behind choke hold was ridiculous. Also, I find it odd that those two cops in the video weren't even in uniforms.
I've always been taught that if you're going to open your glove compartment in your vehicle, ask the cop if you can first. Same thing with reaching behind a seat, etc.
Hands should always be in plain sight for a cop. I wouldn't take any chances with someone who's got a itchy trigger finger.
EatinOlives
Member
That's fine when we're talking between two citizens about the best practices for OUR safety, but there's a very big difference between what we discuss as survival (that's essentially what it's boiled down to, survival against the police), and the official rules.
Yes, if an officer tells you to do something you do it, you ask permission, you keep your hands where they can see them, etc. Those are things we tell each other. But that doesn't mean cops have every right to shoot, maim or kill if you don't do this. Our tips for survival are not their guidelines or permissions.
That's the real diference. These aren't commands or written laws. They're merely "tips". There's no real benefit to discussing "tips" when talking about officers breaking the law or abusing their authority. I'm not saying you are, but I'm just commenting on the general easy scapegoat that a lot of other people like to do. "Buh, just don't resist arrest then! Don't yell at cops! Don't pull your hand away!" Good tips for us, but in no way justifies cops murdering people left and right. Those two things are completely separate. It's why the St. Louis county sending messages about these tips (discussed in a different thread) is so deplorable. Those are tips, for us, to discuss one another. Those are not theirs to tell us, because frankly those tips are for us to protect ourselves against them. They shouldn't be in that conversation because by being in it they agree they are dangerous to the people they are pretending to protect.
User Name Here
Member
Not to derail the thread or anything, but I just had to mention this.
Twitter just made me aware of the Tulsa race riot. Holy shit. I mean... what the fuck. Black people get enslaved. Manage to get free and try to build wealth in Oklahoma... Then this happens:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riot
Twitter just made me aware of the Tulsa race riot. Holy shit. I mean... what the fuck. Black people get enslaved. Manage to get free and try to build wealth in Oklahoma... Then this happens:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riot
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Saw the Police Union's "he had a choice" bullshit.
Is there a legal distinction between non-compliance and resisting arrest?
Is there a legal distinction between non-compliance and resisting arrest?
Look what the police union had to say http://www.cbsnews.com/news/eric-garner-case-reaction-from-new-york-city-mayor-riles-police-union/
Fuck them.
Fuck them.
Anton Sugar
Member
"Thought he had a gun" is the new "sprinkle crack on him".
regular cops shouldn't have guns. most clearly do not have the discipline and mental maturity to use them.
I'm not kidding.
I know that'd never happen, because walking around with guns is one of the things that attracts most of these nutjobs to the occupation in the first place. It'd take all the fun out if they couldn't be a walking lethal threat to everyone around them.
Great turnout in the NYC protests tonight. Literally thousands of people. Hopefully we can see numbers as large or ever larger than the Climate March NYC previously had in a weekend.
Live aerial footage of NYC protests: http://abcnews.go.com/Live/
Live aerial footage of NYC protests: http://abcnews.go.com/Live/
I grew up in Tulsa, went to good schools. For all the Tulsa and Oklahoma history I was taught, this was not even mentioned. I didn't even learn about it until some years ago.
That's the reality of how much America buries its head in the sand about its own racism. The fact of slavery can't be retconned, but we sure as hell managed to paper over nearly all of the horrors of Reconstruction and Jim Crow. We're a nation in severe denial.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
You know, I don't have a big issue with some on the right doing this. New York is hell bent on getting it's tax cut of cigarette taxes. I don't think any other state has the special taskforce for it that they do. So far I hear some on the right using this as a talking point, but at the same time making sure to say that there is no reason Garner should be dead. Going after the Police for using vastly excessive force for such a petty crime, might end up being the more productive route to change.
so the fault is on the lawmakers for putting a high tax on cigarettes, not on the cop who choked a guy to death for daring to argue with him. it's just a dumb talking point. the problem is the police, not the taxes.
if you want proof, there is a long line of unarmed black bodies whose encounters with police had nothing to do with cigarettes.
one of the most egregious is the 11 year old boy playing in the snow with a pellet gun. cops rolled up and shot him dead -- just like that. almost looked like a drive by, but they didn't keep driving. not like they have to get out of there before the police show up.
Dreams-Visions
Member
I think most nations live in denial of their past sins. Japan and China come to mind specifically. Exceptionalism is a thing here in America.
I think Germany is one of the only nations whose citizenry look its past right in the eye and look to do better as a consequence.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
I am certainly not trying to absolve this cop of being a murderer. I am just saying that the bigger problem as I see it is police using excessive force for petty crimes. Listen to how the union is saying the cop acted appropriately. Pointing out the tax as a silly law that the cops overreact to, might lead to it being seen as the bigger problem. I don't have a problem with that angle if it leads to a deescalation how police interact with the public.
Basically, I'm happy people on the right aren't taking the demonic thug angle they usually do. Maybe I'm just being overly optimistic though.
Wasn't it illegal until very recently to depict Hitler or the Swastika or even use the word Nazi in German media?
Except for the fact that he was being repeatedly INFORMED that he was using deadly force. A plea of not being able to breathe is unambiguous evidence that he was indeed using deadly force.
1. This "burn the house down because you saw a cockroach" approach is completely flawed. The amount of force applied should definitely be equal to the circumstances.
2. The circumstances in this situation were completely different. A taser is completely different because it is, for all intents and purposes, instantaneous. If you're choking someone, you can stop before you kill the person. One you pull the trigger on a taser gun, it's over (if the electric charge indeed killed the person). As for the pepper spray, maybe you can decide how much to dispense, but unlike the choke hold, there's no way of knowing whether the amount dispensed is actually deadly.
The critical point in this choke hold issue is that he was TOLD that he was using deadly force, and he CONTINUED to do it until he killed him.
They can't do that because there's video footage. No video footage? They would be spouting that stuff in a instant. I don't know if they even believe the shit they spout, or if they do it to rile up and appease up the old, racist, used to be middle class white Americans.
plagiarize
Banned
I heard something the other week, that I genuinely think is a contributing factor. More and more you need to have a completely clean criminal record if you want to be a cop (so a cop told me) because of changing hiring standards.
Well some people were predicting that we'd start to see more cops killing people as a result, because it's much more common now for a cop to have never been in a fight, or to have been in a situation where there was violence, before becoming a cop. So the first time Mr White Never Been in Trouble Criminal Law Graduate Po-Po finds himself in a dangerous situation, is when he's armed and on the job.
I don't know if its really true, but it certainly gave me food for thought.
On choke holds not being deadly to 'normal' people.
That's bullcrap. You're cutting off blood and oxygen to the brain. If you hold a rear naked choke on anyone long enough, it will kill them. It's like saying that strangling the shit out of someone isn't deadly force. Of course it fucking is.
I can't believe the police is reacting the way they do (see this Ray Kelly interview as an example). Why aren't they being critical of themselves? Why aren't they being introspective and trying to build bridges between the victimized and themselves? Why aren't they apologizing or showing their empathy for the victims?
Instead it's all damage control and defensive arguments again and again. There's no agreement, no attempt at trying to fix the systemic issue, no diplomacy. Just look at Ray Kelly and having two Black guys next to him telling their personal experiences, as well as their informed perspectives on the relationship between the police force and Black citizens, yet Kelly isn't even nodding or meeting them halfway about these things.
Instead it's all damage control and defensive arguments again and again. There's no agreement, no attempt at trying to fix the systemic issue, no diplomacy. Just look at Ray Kelly and having two Black guys next to him telling their personal experiences, as well as their informed perspectives on the relationship between the police force and Black citizens, yet Kelly isn't even nodding or meeting them halfway about these things.
Chie Satonaka
Member
The Police have been in an "Us vs Them" mentality since well before I was born. Couple that in with powerful unions and a bunch of racists cops, spinkle in a dash of no accountability and you've got the makings of a group of people who not only think they're above the law, but they are the law. Keep in mind these ideals are reinforced constantly by the mainstream who have an insane hero cop worship complex which has been indoctinated since birth. It's why you have people who say (on this board, even!) they defer to authority under any and all circumstances, and everyone else should do the same.
A Dredd reference was not intentional here.
Frankfurter
Member
Nope.
It's still illegal to claim that the holocaust didn't exist, though.
+ there are some issues with swastikas in video games, which apparently has something to do with video games not being fully accepted as 'culture' as opposed to say movies, where it's just fine (atleast that's the only half-assed attempt I can give to try to make sense of this mess).
Just a few minutes ago on CNN:
Former NYPD Officer Harry Houck and Former Deputy Chief US Marshall Mathew Fogg expressed opposite views on how NYPD Officer Daniel Panteleo, other NYPD Officers, and EMT responded on Eric Garner
- Former NYPD Officer Harry Houck said police and EMT response was appropriate
- Former Deputy Chief US Marshall Mathew Fogg on the other hand said that it was a chokehold, "you don't make an arrest like that..now that he's mashing on his head, holding him down, and that actually killed him". He also insisted CPR should have been done after containment.
"This is the problem I have with the NYPD when I used to work up there on operations, they just have this vigilantly where alot of times they would jump on people, do things to people. I had to tell NYPD Officers one time when I was running operations, you will not operate like this way under me."
Former NYPD Officer Harry Houck and Former Deputy Chief US Marshall Mathew Fogg expressed opposite views on how NYPD Officer Daniel Panteleo, other NYPD Officers, and EMT responded on Eric Garner
- Former NYPD Officer Harry Houck said police and EMT response was appropriate
- Former Deputy Chief US Marshall Mathew Fogg on the other hand said that it was a chokehold, "you don't make an arrest like that..now that he's mashing on his head, holding him down, and that actually killed him". He also insisted CPR should have been done after containment.
"This is the problem I have with the NYPD when I used to work up there on operations, they just have this vigilantly where alot of times they would jump on people, do things to people. I had to tell NYPD Officers one time when I was running operations, you will not operate like this way under me."
Yeah I know, I know. I'm just stupefied that there isn't any attempt whatsoever to say "okay, this has gone too far, it's time to take a look at what we do" by members of the police. I seriously can't believe police officers aren't coming out and denouncing the actions and the case. Where's the empathy and the understanding? These are people with families and friends and loved ones and the ability to care about others, yet they can't feel within them a sense of sorrow and regret about the completely unnecessary loss of another human being caused by members of their own institution and group.
Sidenote: I just know that Battlefield cops & robbers game is going to further reinforce that fucked up hero cop worship bullshit we've seen so many times in mainstream media. If this will ring true, I hope everyone who'll review and criticize the game will take the real world into account when analyzing the game's ideological underpinnings.
TheExecutive
Member
So I saw the video for myself a few minutes ago... How do they not call that a choke hold according to the definition they put forth? Secondly, the video shows they have zero ability or training on conflict resolution and #99 just resorted to violence to stop the situation. I do think it was an accidental death but the cop was breaking regulation and the city is liable for that mans death.
No, that is completely wrong.
Byakuya769
Member
"There will always be a lot to think about in these crisis situations, but underneath it all is the citizen's duty to submit to arrest."
Goose stepping.
Bam Chowder
Member
Agree 100%. Just watched the video and I feel very disgusted right now.
TheExecutive
Member
First reaction was anger but I think that was because I knew the man died. However, if I had just seen the video I would have been shocked to hear he perished. Goes to show that violence should always be a last resort because you don't know what affect it will have.
Hope the widow owns half of the city before it's over. May not bring him back but will stimulate change
I wouldn't have been too shocked after the repeated cries of "I can't breath".
TheExecutive
Member
You have to be able to breathe to talk... But his medical condition undoubtedly contributed to his death. Its why violence should be a last resort...
My Sensei could kill most people in seconds and he always said if you resort to violence you have failed the other person and put yourself in imminent danger of an unpredictable situation physically, mentally, and socially
I'm curious if you know what it's like to not be able to breathe. I have had several asthma attacks, I've always been able to speak, it doesn't take much to get some words out, even when you can't get any air in.
I see this argument a lot" but he could breathe, he talked" but to me it doesn't mean a whole lot and obviously since he died it shows some fault in that logic.
When someone says "I can't breathe", they're obviously struggling to breathe. This whole argument you have to be able to breathe to talk is nonsense.
Chie Satonaka
Member
So, you're a cop and you have control of the situation.
The point of control was when Mr. Garner was on the ground, surrounded and piled on by a bunch of cops. He wasn't going anywhere. He wasn't going to kill all of you with his bare hands. (Was he handcuffed while on the ground? I can't bear to watch the video again.)
At what point should you stop choking? When he's no longer moving? But he might be dead, right? So if you're using the chole to incapacitate, but there's the risk of killing a man for using it, that's a problem, right?
Let's play devil's advocate. Let's say Peter King and any other person who agrees with him is correct. Were it not for Mr. Garner's health and obesity, he would not have died.
Wouldn't that be the precise reason why you WOULDN'T want to use a fucking chokehold on someone? Because you don't know if they have athsma? You don't know how their body is going to respond to it? Because you might apply it incorrectly? Isn't that the point?
I'm trying to thing of any reason that this can be justified behind an excuse that's not victim blaming, and I can't. These people are paid to assess threats and react accordingly. Eric Garner was not a threat. He wasn't a threat before they took him down, he wasn't a threat on the ground, and there's no reason that he shouldn't be alive right now. None. That police officer killed him. He didn't assess the situation properly, and willfully murdered that man. I don't care if it was his "intention" or not. He could have let him go, and he chose not to. And the rest of the thugs that were there helped kill him.
This is disgusting. This is an outrage. And eventually, things are going to get to the point of no return if things don't change.
The point of control was when Mr. Garner was on the ground, surrounded and piled on by a bunch of cops. He wasn't going anywhere. He wasn't going to kill all of you with his bare hands. (Was he handcuffed while on the ground? I can't bear to watch the video again.)
At what point should you stop choking? When he's no longer moving? But he might be dead, right? So if you're using the chole to incapacitate, but there's the risk of killing a man for using it, that's a problem, right?
Let's play devil's advocate. Let's say Peter King and any other person who agrees with him is correct. Were it not for Mr. Garner's health and obesity, he would not have died.
Wouldn't that be the precise reason why you WOULDN'T want to use a fucking chokehold on someone? Because you don't know if they have athsma? You don't know how their body is going to respond to it? Because you might apply it incorrectly? Isn't that the point?
I'm trying to thing of any reason that this can be justified behind an excuse that's not victim blaming, and I can't. These people are paid to assess threats and react accordingly. Eric Garner was not a threat. He wasn't a threat before they took him down, he wasn't a threat on the ground, and there's no reason that he shouldn't be alive right now. None. That police officer killed him. He didn't assess the situation properly, and willfully murdered that man. I don't care if it was his "intention" or not. He could have let him go, and he chose not to. And the rest of the thugs that were there helped kill him.
This is disgusting. This is an outrage. And eventually, things are going to get to the point of no return if things don't change.
googleplex
Member
For Christ sake.....the arm around his throat cutting off his air supply was the direct cause if his death
I'm taking a break from this thread because my original reply would have gotten me banned.
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
Dumb statement. I can't breathe means I can't take air in and out enough for me to supply my body with the appropriate amount of oxygen.
You can let a few words escape with the air already in your lungs. As someone with asthma already mentioned it's quite common for those with that disability to say I can't breathe.
TheExecutive
Member
Never had an asthma attack no. Not condoning the continuing of chocking when he said that either... Just recently had bronchitis and walked up three flights of stairs, had the wind knocked out of me countless times... Fairly similar?
And yes his death disproves that premise
You'd think that after the most recent case of police lying about a person reaching for a weapon and resisting (Tamir Rice) that people would stop immediately taking the police statement as gospel.
TheExecutive
Member
Agree with the statement that the arm around the throat contributed to his death. In any case his death was not his fault. The video shows resistance but no violence. He died because of the direct actions odd the police force and the officer in question. No one can deny that.
I can't compare it to other things honestly, I just know when I have an attack, it's terrifying. I think I'm going to die. No matter how hard I try to get air in, I can't. It's like breathing through a straw, somebody has pinched. I have passed out from lack of air. Sure some air gets in there, but it's not enough and I know if I don't find a way to get more air, I could die. Usually I end up at the hospital and get help.
I guess that's why his death affects me so much, I can see that look in his face, that look of panic when air isn't getting through, I know that face well. To watch him literally beg for air, knowing it's hopeless as they won't let go, is almost more than I can take.
alex chilton
Member
Did that cop who smashed that guys car window cause he got pulled over for his kids not wearing seatbelts ever get punished?
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