Support NeoGAF

[ashecitism]

The final product will require BPM

A Steam Machine or other computer capable of running Steam Big Picture Mode, in order to view, edit, save, and share Steam Controller mappings.

but can see them adding it to the regular client in the future

 

[Qassim]

That's a little disappointing, not a huge issue but yeah, I hope they eventually release a non-BPM configuration tool.

 

[CO_Andy]

Is there a sleep mode if the controller idles for too long?

Can you plink or piano in Street Fighter with it?

 

[Krejlooc]

Yes, but in the example i gave the Arkham Games use a total of 4 face button combos for special moves.

In this case i assume it would take extensive practice to train muscular memory. A workable way would be to divide the right trackpad in 4 areas corresponding to each face button. The right trackpad doesn't have the benefit of a cross like texture like the left one, i don't think the concentric rings are as workable for the purpose of simulating the diamond shape button configuration.

The feedback for the finger needs to be a little more complex to reliably pull off the 4 face button combos. Given the 4 area trackpad segmentation, probably 2 combos are achievable confortably. im probably not coming off clear enough of what im talking about, sadly.

Anyway, maybe this is another thing for you to test for the eventual video. Maybe, if you like, you could ask the guys here to list some of their questions so you can have a sort of guide of things to try in the video. Just an small suggestion. XD

Eh, I don't think it's quite as daunting as you make it out to be, but that might just because I'm used to using virtual d-pads and things of that sort. Despite my claim about the left touch pad having a problem with resting your finger on it in the prototype, it wasn't much of a problem for me. I just learned to lift my finger when I wasn't trying to send input. I could also find the cardinal directions with my thumb with ease. I don't know how difficult it would be for other people, but it was never a problem for myself.

Regardless, I'd say the way to accomplish what is being discussed is to map those buttons to the shoulder buttons and grips.

Is there a sleep mode if the controller idles for too long?

There appears to be an on and off switch at the bottom of the controller, but the protos were wired so I don't know. I'll test it out.

Can you plink or piano in Street Fighter with it?

I'll certainly give it a go haha. Doing that with an arcade stick is already pretty difficult for me, though.

 

[ashecitism]

What's plink and piano?

 

[Krejlooc]

What's plink and piano?

It's when you play the keys of a fighting game controller in order in very rapid succession, usually going from high attack to low attack or vice versa. Quite a few games have combo systems built around this. My go to example is Marvel Vs Capcom, particularly strider, as he as a very good example of this: LP -> LK -> MP -> MK -> HP -> Down+HK -> Up -> LP -> MP -> HP.

When you see it done, it looks like someone is playing the piano.

 

[Nzyme32]

Is it possible to have multiple functions bound per button based on a single press and a hold?

My thought was that it would be cool in some games to use the mode switching feature for the grips (which requires them to be held down) but to also use the grips as a normal button with a key bound to it

 

[Krejlooc]

Is it possible to have multiple functions bound per button based on a single press and a hold?

My thought was that it would be cool in some games to use the mode switching feature for the grips (which requires them to be held down) but to also use the grips as a normal button with a key bound to it

Yeah, those are called modifiers. You can apparently do that.

 

[mrklaw]

The entire pad is one button and presses down evenly. Think of it like the A button on a gamecube controller.

The difference between the prototype and how this works is that the prototype treated the left touchpad basically like a mobile phone touch screen. The slightest brush of your finger on the pad registered as input. The way it would work is it would figure out where on the pad your finger was touching, and translate that into a direction. If you rested your finger on touch pad (like many people do with a dpad) it would act as constant input.

You can use haptic feedback to make the touchpad feel like it's rocking, even though it's not. And you can customize a deadzone small enough so that you can rock your finger on the touchpad just like a d-pad. This new mode makes it so that it doesn't send input until you actually press down on the button, making it feel like a real, normal d-pad.

In the prototypes, the touchpads felt about as stiff as any other button on any other controller. It's not quite as stiff as pressing down on a thumb stick. It feels very much like a large, normal gamepad button.

Also new in the final version is a cross shape on the left pad. The prototype didn't have this, it had a series of circles eminating around the center of the pad. I am extremely curious to see what this cross indention feels like, but I'm guessing that, all together with the cross shape under your thumb, the haptic feed back, and the push activation, this is going to feel absolutely nothing like the prototype. It's something I haven't seen any of the people who have gotten their hands on the final controller talk about, and it's the thing I will investigate first before anything else.

Hang on - so the left and right trackpads work differently? I'd have thought you'd want constant input to simulate an analogue controller input. Surely you can do the same on the left if you want? Or in those cases would you just be expected to use the left analogue stick?

 

[Sheytan]

My home setup is perfect for Steam Link: Dedicated gaming PC in my room, fully wired 1Gbps home network, a TV and a 5.1 surround A/V in the living room. Can't wait for Steam Link. Will get it fo sho.

Steam streaming doesn't support surround sound yet

 

[ashecitism]

Is it possible to have multiple functions bound per button based on a single press and a hold?

My thought was that it would be cool in some games to use the mode switching feature for the grips (which requires them to be held down) but to also use the grips as a normal button with a key bound to it

I think you misunderstood something from the blog post, if you mean this

Here’s a picture of my layout. What you don’t see is that holding down the left grip allows me to access utility skills and healing skill on the face buttons and clicking in the left analog stick allows me to jump.

What he's talking about here is game specific, and not a controller function.

So based on this

You can also assign modifier buttons. So you can make the A button jump, right trigger + A button dodge, left grip + A button cast a spell, etc. The button combinations seem only limited by your muscle memory.

I say yes, you could have the grip act both as a normal function and as a modifier.

 

[Nzyme32]

I think you misunderstood something from the blog post, if you mean this



What he's talking about here is game specific, and not a controller function.

So based on this



I say yes, you could have the grip act both as a normal function and as a modifier.

Nah, I'm talking specifically about a function in the recent video you posted. If you read the screen for the description it says (at around the 1:03 mark) -

Mode Shifting

Mode Shifting allows an input style on the controller to be "shifted" into another mode while a button is being held. When released the mode will change back to its normal mode. This allows additional buttons to be mapped or settings to be changed between modes. You can define what mode this input shifts into, as well as what button shifts it, here.

So what I was asking is say, if I use this mode switching thing for the left grip (which will happen when it is held), could I also have something else mapped to the left grip when I simply give it a normal quick press - - so for example in an RTS, may I'd have the left grip rotate the camera 90 degrees left when I tap it, but holding it would not do that but rather engage the mode shifting to use a different input style / shortcut buttons not mapped in the normal mode

 

[Krejlooc]

Hang on - so the left and right trackpads work differently? I'd have thought you'd want constant input to simulate an analogue controller input. Surely you can do the same on the left if you want? Or in those cases would you just be expected to use the left analogue stick?

The two touchpads are interchangeable in terms of function, but the left pad has a cross indention on it while the right pad is bare.

And you shouldn't be using either touchpad to simulate analog input. They're not very good at doing that. You can do that of course, but it's not what they are best at. I would say they make much better dpads or mice than they do analog controllers.

 

[Syphon Filter]

Anyone know if the dpad moves around? Also the right pad?

 

[Krejlooc]

Anyone know if the dpad moves around? Also the right pad?

read the previous page

 

[mrklaw]

The two touchpads are interchangeable in terms of function, but the left pad has a cross indention on it while the right pad is bare.

And you shouldn't be using either touchpad to simulate analog input. They're not very good at doing that. You can do that of course, but it's not what they are best at. I would say they make much better dpads or mice than they do analog controllers.

Slightly devils advocate response - why not just put a dpad on the left then? You would have dpad and analog stick on the left for gross movement, and the haptic trackpad for mousey/trackball movements. Curious about the benefits of twin trackpads.

 

[Krejlooc]

Slightly devils advocate response - why not just put a dpad on the left then? You would have dpad and analog stick on the left for gross movement, and the haptic trackpad for mousey/trackball movements. Curious about the benefits of twin trackpads.

Read the last page, I spoke at length about how you can use the touchpads in ways unlike any other controller.

 

[ashecitism]

Nah, I'm talking specifically about a function in the recent video you posted. If you read the screen for the description it says (at around the 1:03 mark) -



So what I was asking is say, if I use this mode switching thing for the left grip (which will happen when it is held), could I also have something else mapped to the left grip when I simply give it a normal quick press - - so for example in an RTS, may I'd have the left grip rotate the camera 90 degrees left when I tap it, but holding it would not do that but rather engage the mode shifting to use a different input style / shortcut buttons not mapped in the normal mode

Oh, you have good eyes Isn't this the modifier button function then?

 

[Shy]

And you shouldn't be using either touchpad to simulate analog input. They're not very good at doing that. You can do that of course, but it's not what they are best at. I would say they make much better dpads or mice than they do analog controllers.

So i can't use both pads as analogue sticks like a traditional controller, or i can but they won't be as good. is that correct. ?

 

[Krejlooc]

So i can't use both pads as analogue sticks like a traditional controller, or i can but they won't be as good. is that correct. ?

You can use both pads as analog sticks, but I wouldn't recommend it because, by my experience, they don't feel particularly good that way. Ever play a game on iOS or Android that simulates dual analog sticks using the touch screen? Like NOVA? It feels exactly like that.

Using them as a mouse or d-pad feels much better.

 

[Shy]

You can use both pads as analog sticks, but I wouldn't recommend it because, by my experience, they don't feel particularly good that way. Ever play a game on iOS or Android that simulates dual analog sticks using the touch screen? Like NOVA? It feels exactly like that.

Using them as a mouse or d-pad feels much better.

Ahh. Ok. Thanks again.

Sorry if it was a dumb question, i'm not the brightest bulb in the box.

 

[Astral/H3X]

So i can't use both pads as analogue sticks like a traditional controller, or i can but they won't be as good. is that correct. ?

Doing that would be a gross waste of the potential of this controller, but yes. For movement it would be "fine", but for aiming you'd be wasting a shit ton of what the controller is all about.

It would be a bit like using an analog stick to control a 2D game, if that makes sense. The analog stick is far more capable than a Dpad in terms of what it can do, but using it AS a dpad isn't very ideal. In the same way, the trackpad CAN be used as an analog stick, but you'd be wasting a lot of potential, and would end up with a little bit worse result.

EDIT:

Sorry if it was a dumb question, i'm not the brightest bulb in the box.

It's not a dumb question. This is a fairly new input method, and there are lots of questions. Not everyone has the same amount of time as Krejlooc to mess around with the device (lucky bastard), so it's not dumb to not know the ins and outs of it.

Really, the only dumb question is "Why didn't Valve just make a 360 controller and be done with it". That's a pretty stupid question.

 

[Krejlooc]

Ahh. Ok. Thanks again.

Sorry if it was a dumb question, i'm not the brightest bulb in the box.

it's not a dumb question, these controllers are pretty unlike anything else out there. That's why I talk about them at length, because they fascinate me. I feel I have to be verbose because there is so much to explain about them.

It'll all click once you get them in your hands, but so few people have touched even the prototypes that it warrants really thorough explanations. If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to ask.

Really, the only dumb question is "Why didn't Valve just make a 360 controller and be done with it". That's a pretty stupid question.

Even that isn't a dumb question, provided it's asked earnestly, because it leads to a discussion about the design consideration of the controller, and what Valve hoped to accomplish. There is a definite philosophy behind the controller, and asking "why not just an xbox 360 controller" allows for someone to talk about the difference between a mouse and an analog stick, which might not really be immediately noticeable if you've never given thought to how each input actually works.

The only "dumb" questions are ones that beg the question for an agenda.

 

[Jon of the Wired]

You would need redundant mappings (I.e. A second "fire from the hip" button) or you could use a modified to change the behavior of the first stage of the dual stage trigger. So like, id you hold a shoulder button, then pressing the analog portion of the dual stage trigger doesnt activate your ads.

I'm not sure if it's possible with the current software, but something you could do in theory is to have a very short (100 ms?) delay on activating ADS when you're in the first stage of the trigger, so that if you hit the second stage before the delay ends, you fire from the hip instead. That way if you jam the trigger fast enough, you fire from the hip, but if you try to use ADS then it works as expected.

 

[Krejlooc]

I'm not sure if it's possible with the current software, but something you could do in theory is to have a very short (100 ms?) delay on activating ADS when you're in the first stage of the trigger, so that if you hit the second stage before the delay ends, you fire from the hip instead. That way if you jam the trigger fast enough, you fire from the hip, but if you try to use ADS then it works as expected.

Valve is reading this thread as we speak, I personally think this is a great idea

 

[Syphon Filter]

Doing that would be a gross waste of the potential of this controller, but yes. For movement it would be "fine", but for aiming you'd be wasting a shit ton of what the controller is all about.

It would be a bit like using an analog stick to control a 2D game, if that makes sense. The analog stick is far more capable than a Dpad in terms of what it can do, but using it AS a dpad isn't very ideal. In the same way, the trackpad CAN be used as an analog stick, but you'd be wasting a lot of potential, and would end up with a little bit worse result.

EDIT:

It's not a dumb question. This is a fairly new input method, and there are lots of questions. Not everyone has the same amount of time as Krejlooc to mess around with the device (lucky bastard), so it's not dumb to not know the ins and outs of it.

Really, the only dumb question is "Why didn't Valve just make a 360 controller and be done with it". That's a pretty stupid question.

I think a different version that is more traditional will be worth putting out just for the paddles in the back.

 

[Krejlooc]

I think a different version that is more traditional will be worth putting out just for the paddles in the back.

sounds like you're interested in the Xbox One elite controller. I'll be picking up one of those, too. Shame about the price, though.

 

[Jon of the Wired]

Valve is reading this thread as we speak, I personally think this is a great idea

Heh, can't really take credit. It was inspired (ridiculously) by how the "EmulateWheel" option works for my Thinkpad's trackpoint under Linux. If you press and release the middle button fast enough it counts as a middle click, but if you hold it down it causes the trackpoint to scroll instead of moving the mouse cursor. It sounds like it would be finicky, but it's actually brilliant.

 

[Krejlooc]

Heh, can't really take credit. It was inspired (ridiculously) by how the "EmulateWheel" option works for my Thinkpad's trackpoint under Linux. If you press and release the middle button fast enough it counts as a middle click, but if you hold it down it causes the trackpoint to scroll instead of moving the mouse cursor. It sounds like it would be finicky, but it's actually brilliant.

Thats the way the inventory in old Metal Gear Solid games worked, too. Quick tap for instant equip, long hold for menu.

 

[alexandros]

Does anyone have any ideas on how the controller touchpads could be used with a driving game? Analog control is important for these games. Could the touch pads be used as a steering wheel of sorts? I can't wrap my brain around it.

 

[Krejlooc]

Does anyone have any ideas on how the controller touchpads could be used with a driving game? Analog control is important for these games. Could the touch pads be used as a steering wheel of sorts? I can't wrap my brain around it.

The new version apparently has a ring edge detect. You can move your finger along the edges of the touchpad like you're spinning a dial. I bet you could map that to an analog stick input and make the touchpad feel like a NeGCon controller.

 

[ashecitism]

The new version apparently has a ring edge detect. You can move your finger along the edges of the touchpad like you're spinning a dial. I bet you could map that to an analog stick input and make the touchpad feel like a NeGCon controller.

so that's what's happening at 0:30 in the trailer?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fs2Yh1PFwM#t=30s

 

[The Reloader]

I'm not sure if it's possible with the current software, but something you could do in theory is to have a very short (100 ms?) delay on activating ADS when you're in the first stage of the trigger, so that if you hit the second stage before the delay ends, you fire from the hip instead. That way if you jam the trigger fast enough, you fire from the hip, but if you try to use ADS then it works as expected.

If the Steam controller is a true KB/M emulator, then I think theoretically something like this could already be done using a programmable input emulator like GlovePIE.

 

[Krejlooc]

so that's what's happening at 0:30 in the trailer?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fs2Yh1PFwM#t=30s

yup

 

[Astral/H3X]

Valve is reading this thread as we speak, I personally think this is a great idea

Wait, seriously?

Things I have concerns for/would like:

It's already been mentioned, but for racing, it would be AMAZING if there could be a "wheel mode" where spinning your fingers around the edge of the trackpad would increment a left/right analog value as you rotated. IE, it would not send that your stick was in the upper left corner, but rather slowly incrementing the left and right analog value. That way, "rotating" your dial 360 degrees would result in an analog value of 100%, but rotating it only 180* would be a value of 50% left or right. It should of course be configurable for various degrees of accuracy, but I think this could do a lot for racers.

IMO, I don't like Analog triggers, but I know a lot of people do. To me a digital trigger is far more responsive and usable. If there's a V2, I'd like it if there was some level of "stop" to get the same throw as on a digital trigger, but I understand if that's not possible or feasible.

I think I might've mentioned it before, but being able to set the controller into a "static" config that would persist through unplugging the controller and plugging it into a completely other device would go a long way in putting in some more bang for the buck, since that would open up usage on other systems (such as PS3). This would of course be saved for a later update.

They should totally get with OBsIV at XIM4.com on that last point, to see if there's anything that they could do to get the Steam controller and the XIM devices working nicely together -- that would probably get me to get a PS4, tbqh.

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE if I could get the Steam controller to use the Nintendo layout of buttons, as opposed to the Xbox one. Even if it means taking the controller apart to swap some button faces around, I would be HAPPY AS HELL. But that would require a level of software awareness, to apply those settings across everything. I know that I could just remap every game with it, but I would be happy to see some Valve acknowledgement of this preference -- I'm not the only one.

That's all I can think of right now.

 

[Koozek]

Man, back grip buttons should be standard for the next gen of consoles. It's plain stupid how many FPS games have frequently used actions on face-buttons forcing you to move your thumb off the right stick all the time.

 

[Krejlooc]

IMO, I don't like Analog triggers, but I know a lot of people do. To me a digital trigger is far more responsive and usable. If there's a V2, I'd like it if there was some level of "stop" to get the same throw as on a digital trigger, but I understand if that's not possible or feasible.

You know the analog triggers are two stage, right? There is a digital trigger at the end of the analog trigger.

 

[Astral/H3X]

You know the analog triggers are two stage, right? There is a digital trigger at the end of the analog trigger.

I do, but the issue is that the digital end is on the wrong end. I like the Wii U's digital triggers because I only have to move the trigger about 1mm, at which point it stops, allowing me to very quickly press and depress it. This makes a huge difference in both Bayonetta and Dark Souls, when parrying or dodging in both games compared to the 360's analog trigger.
The thing is it's not that there's a digital input, but rather the trigger travel distance that causes the issue.

 

[Awakened]

I do, but the issue is that the digital end is on the wrong end. I like the Wii U's digital triggers because I only have to move the trigger about 1mm, at which point it stops, allowing me to very quickly press and depress it. This makes a huge difference in both Bayonetta and Dark Souls, when parrying or dodging in both games compared to the 360's analog trigger.
The thing is it's not that there's a digital input, but rather the trigger travel distance that causes the issue.

But you can map trigger stuff to the grips, which can act like digital triggers, just in a different position.

 

[Ionic]

I do, but the issue is that the digital end is on the wrong end. I like the Wii U's digital triggers because I only have to move the trigger about 1mm, at which point it stops, allowing me to very quickly press and depress it. This makes a huge difference in both Bayonetta and Dark Souls, when parrying or dodging in both games compared to the 360's analog trigger.
The thing is it's not that there's a digital input, but rather the trigger travel distance that causes the issue.

Can't you just configure the analog triggers to be your parry button? Don't want to deal with pressing it all the way? No biggie. Press it in a millimeter and have it set to do what you want.

 

[Astral/H3X]

But you can map trigger stuff to the grips, which can act like digital triggers, just in a different position.

I said I understand if it's infeasible, but it's valve, and maybe they have a magic solution for this. Just if they happen to be reading this, I'd like them to see it and maybe they can come up with something.

Can't you just configure the analog triggers to be your parry button? Don't want to deal with pressing it all the way? No biggie. Press it in a millimeter and have it set to do what you want.

The point of a digital trigger is that it it only goes in 1mm, and STOPS there. Not that it sends the signal at 1mm.

With a digital trigger, you can rest your finger on it, with a bit of tension, just enough pressure that it isn't quite triggering it, and then very quickly add that pressure to trigger the button. This is faster and more responsive than going from no pressure at all to pulling an analog trigger to the point that it registers as a digital button press.

90% of games use the second method, like Bayonetta and Dark Souls (I hate to bring them up but they are the games where I notice it the most). I have both a 360 controller and a Wii U pro controller for my PC, and it is *significantly* easier to time parries on DS using the pro controller than the 360 controller, precisely because of digital triggers.

Again, I don't expect a miracle, but Valve already did some very extraordinary things just getting these trackpads where they are, so I want to throw it out there that I personally would be very happy to see something like that.

 

[Bowl0l]

How do i order the official Steam controller?
fyi, i live in Malaysia.

 

[Shy]

How do i order the official Steam controller?
fyi, i live in Malaysia.

Does this work for you. ?

 

[Krejlooc]

How do i order the official Steam controller?
fyi, i live in Malaysia.

If you are a trusting individual and can't order directly from their site to your country, I would be willing to order a controller for you and ship it your way, provided you pay for the cost of the controller and shipping, of course. I've done this in the past with others, and had it done to myself as well on other items that have been hard to get.

 

[RealityCheque]

 

[Refreshment.01]

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE if I could get the Steam controller to use the Nintendo layout of buttons, as opposed to the Xbox one. Even if it means taking the controller apart to swap some button faces around, I would be HAPPY AS HELL. But that would require a level of software awareness, to apply those settings across everything. I know that I could just remap every game with it, but I would be happy to see some Valve acknowledgement of this preference -- I'm not the only one.

And the brain of many would LOVE if Valve would have also brake the nomenclature convention for the face buttons being the arbitrary A B X Y letters. And instead put something more intuitive or natural like triangles in the four cardinal directions:

( v ^ < > )

Making matters worse you have 2 manufacturers using the same exact letters but in different positions.

 

[Astral/H3X]

And the brain of many would LOVE if Valve would have also brake the nomenclature convention for the face buttons being the arbitrary A B X Y letters. And instead put something more intuitive or natural like triangles in the four cardinal directions:

( v ^ < > )

Making matters worse you have 2 manufacturers using the same exact letters but in different positions.

Hmmm. Yeah, ultimately using arrow directions would be really useful actually. Let people map their own regardless haha.

 

[Bowl0l]

Does this work for you. ?

In the store, there is no buy button.

 

[Shy]

In the store, there is no buy button.

Hmmm, that's a shame. i think you should take up Krejlooc on his kind offer then. If you don't mind me saying.

 

[grandwizard]

I think it would have been cool if they came up with their own icons for the face buttons, as the prompts in game are not going to match up anyway when using m/kb emulation which is really the main focus of the Steam controller. It's nice they match up for when using it as a 360 gamepad, but that should be secondary since 360 pads already are out there in wide circulation.

My prediction for when it comes out is that the main hindrance people have with it (outside of the usual getting used to something totally new) is the button prompts in game not matching up to what is on the controller. Having to train yourself to know that when the game says [space] when you are attacked by an alien or whatever that you have to press the A button within half a second is a hurdle that has to be overcome.