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[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

The original iPhone was a well thought out nicely packaged phone and maybe the best one at that time but i had touchscreen only phones with app stores waaaay before that.

Yes he and apple made these things popular but the first iPhone wasnt that much different from others just 'better' in some ways.

I like how you reduce the iPhone to "touchscreen phone with app store."

 

[Sobriquet]

No, I'm saying that an author is perhaps writing an exploitative biography to cash in on the death of a much beloved celebrity.

And you would be wrong.

 

[Salsa]

I'm not joking. If it wasn't for iPhone I think we'd still be using vaguely blackberry-looking things with physical keyboards and some sort of cursor manipulator like a stylus, d-pad, blackberry "trackball" or whatever.

Stylii-free capacitive touchscreens were not an inevitability. At least not for the late 2000s. Apple triggered that, no doubt in my mind.

no one's debating that

but saying that no one would have produced a phone finger touch-screen only, considering there were already devices on the market that people were using without a pen, and that you know, its a phone, makes sense you use your thumb is rather ludicrous.

it was just feedback reaction. The Idea is always to comunicate the fastest and most comfortably, the less in the way the better. It was already evolving towards that and as you said Apple triggered it. Would it have taken longer, specially to be "the norm"? maybe, probably, but its hardly what i give Apple most credit for.

 

[kehs]

I like how you reduce the iPhone to "touchscreen phone with app store."

Seriously, the iPhone didn't even have an appstore at launch.

 

[Drkirby]

i think it is not about to be a monopoly in the market
i guess a lot of artist/designer/create hate when people copy their ideas

There is an old saying about these things. Good Artists Borrow, Great Artists Steal.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Seriously, the iPhone didn't even have an appstore at launch.

Well played!

 

[Quadraphonic]

Oh god i owned that piece of shit holds only like 50 songs lol. The irony that google owns them, and the last good phone they made was the razr.

Actually, the Photon/Atrix 4G is pretty damn good. But most phones today have a unique name for each carrier, which makes it hard to develop an EMOTIONAL attachment like people used to, or for Apple.

When the iPhone launched, the Treo line was the big contender, and the biggest thing the iPhone had was a capacitive screen and a more animated UI.

 

[Technosteve]

Apple bought the guys who basically invented capacitive screens, I guess you can call that inventing.

What does that have to do with what i said? And i think you are thinking of the company that created multi touch input devices?

 

[Diprosalic]

Just a little bit better than the others. Like a tiny bit.

It lacked a loot of features. i mean you couldnt even turn off auto correct. which was particulary stupid since it didnt support my language so i had to reverse every word i wrote.

 

[rkn]

no one's debating that

but saying that no one would have produced a phone finger touch-screen only, considering there were already devices on the market that people were using without a pen, and that you know, its a phone, makes sense you use your thumb is rather ludicrous.

it was just feedback reaction. The Idea is always to comunicate the fastest and most comfortably, the less in the way the better. It was already evolving towards that and as you said Apple triggered it. Would it have taken longer, specially to be "the norm"? maybe, probably, but its hardly what i give Apple most credit for.

Well, the argument is, not whether it would have eventually come, it's who did it.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Guys, someone would have eventually made an incredible video game system full of classic games to get us out of the '80s video game market crash, right? So Nintendo, whatever.

 

[rkn]

It lacked a loot of features. i mean you couldnt even turn off auto correct. which was particulary stupid since it didnt support my language so i had to reverse every word i wrote.

You're using it wrong.

 

[Rimfya]

Such a shame "don't steal our ideas" is interpreted "we want a monopoly". Perhaps he was really proud of what they'd done and didn't want to see imitations?

 

[jett]

Steve Jobs being an insane egotistical fuck isn't really new. In any case I'm really interested in this book.

 

[Technosteve]

Guys, someone would have eventually made an incredible video game system full of classic games to get us out of the '80s video game market crash, right? So Nintendo, whatever.

Dude Pong 3 is going to save the video game market man, and ET the video game!

 

[Salsa]

Well, the argument is, not whether it would have eventually come, it's who did it.

i dont disagree

Guys, someone would have eventually made an incredible video game system full of classic games to get us out of the '80s video game market crash, right? So Nintendo, whatever.

you know i always think you make compelling arguments regarding apple that actually make a lot of sense and are fun to discuss to, but sometimes you let a little fanboy hair slip..

at least if it was directed towards me, cause its not what i said at all really

 

[3N16MA]

Actually, the Photon/Atrix 4G is pretty damn good. But most phones today have a unique name for each carrier, which makes it hard to develop an EMOTIONAL attachment like people used to, or for Apple.

When the iPhone launched, the Treo line was the big contender, and the biggest thing the iPhone had was a capacitive screen and a more animated UI.

Great way of describing a fully multi-touch UI that no one had ever seen before on a mobile phone. It's just more animated.

 

[akira28]

Guys, someone would have eventually made an incredible video game system full of classic games to get us out of the '80s video game market crash, right? So Nintendo, whatever.

SSSSEEEEEGGGAAAAAAA.

 

[BocoDragon]

Well, the argument is, not whether it would have eventually come, it's who did it.

And I would say they did it at a period much earlier than I would have expected from the pace of the market. Capacitive touch screens were not immanent in 2007 until Apple. The prototype Android is evidence of that.

 

[kehs]

What does that have to do with what i said? And i think you are thinking of the company that created multi touch input devices?

Right about the multitouch.

The hypocrisy I was talking about is Jobs getting upset at people stealing his "creation" after he stole others "creations".

 

[alphaNoid]

By destroy did he mean copy features and play catch up?

 

[BocoDragon]

Guys, someone would have eventually made an incredible video game system full of classic games to get us out of the '80s video game market crash, right? So Nintendo, whatever.

Nintendo's a great example of market disruption.

D-pad? "would have come along from someone else anyway."

Analog stick? "would have come along from someone else anyway."

Motion control? "would have come along from someone else anyway."

All of these things probably would have come along at some point... but in some cases, I wonder if it would have been 5, 10 years later.... or never at all. Because the point is that Nintendo and Apple released them at early periods where they blew people's minds, being on no one's radar.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Nintendo's a great example of market disruption.

D-pad? "would have come along from someone else anyway."

Analog stick? "would have come along from someone else anyway."

Motion control? "would have come along from someone else anyway."

All of these things probably would have come along at some point... but in some cases, I wonder if it would have been 5, 10 years later.... or never at all. Because the point is that Nintendo and Apple released them at early periods where they blew people's minds, being on no one's radar.

Yep, great example. Sony rushed out an analog stick to compete for PS1, and then both Sony and Microsoft rushed to compete with motion controls years after Nintendo caught them out of nowhere.

 

[Hitokage]

Now we get to have this scene twice in movies about Apple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NofkWBp1LFA

 

[Jamesfrom818]

Seriously, the iPhone didn't even have an appstore at launch.

My 1st gen iPod Touch did. It was a community operated appstore though.

 

[BocoDragon]

Yep, great example. Sony rushed out an analog stick to compete for PS1, and then both Sony and Microsoft rushed to compete with motion controls years after Nintendo caught them out of nowhere.

You'd think, ohhh 3D graphics... analog control had to be inevitable...? In retrospect, you'd think so....

But no, based on how Sega and Sony were operating at the time... they weren't. The whole 90s everyone was thinking about 3D, but apparently analog controls were no priority for any company until Nintendo forced their hand, and made it the standard overnight.

Now we get to have this scene twice in movies about Apple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NofkWBp1LFA

I was just thinking about that.

 

[faceless007]

Now we get to have this scene twice in movies about Apple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NofkWBp1LFA

Ha, I thought of exactly the same scene when I read the OP.

 

[Technosteve]

Right about the multitouch.

The hypocrisy I was talking about is Jobs getting upset at people stealing his "creation" after he stole others "creations".

This is what I think that upset steve, Google's business model from the start of Android was to get as much mobile ad revenue as possible, and to get new users to use their services. From a technology stand point Apple was thinking they were going to be competing against multiple dominate companies that was going to produce different unique vision of what a smartphone would be with touch. Instead they were fighting one company that was giving away apples competitive advantage to everyone!

But i also have to say this is real life business, you find a winning product you mimic it and sell it for a lower price. This is done in every market. That is the realities of life.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

My 1st gen iPod Touch did. It was a community operated appstore though.

Haha, so fun. I remember you had to make your own images to represent the virtual controller in the gba emulator. I spent hours making a stylish control pad for myself.

 

[Momo]

Yes Steve, you and your buddy Bill Gates can really walk the high ground when it comes to idea theft

 

[Technosteve]

i dont disagree



you know i always think you make compelling arguments regarding apple that actually make a lot of sense and are fun to discuss to, but sometimes you let a little fanboy hair slip..

at least if it was directed towards me, cause its not what i said at all really

I think you make pretty good arguments with out defaulting to LoL Apple.

 

[Lagspike_exe]

Android is the mobile equivalent of early Windows. Steve didn't want to lose the same war twice.

 

[Angelus Errare]

In the end, Apple got them back they stole the notification tray (which by the way a genuinely a Google creation) and made it better....then Google made it betterer!

 

[BocoDragon]

Yes Steve, you and your buddy Bill Gates can really walk the high ground when it comes to idea theft

His "buddy" you mean. I think Bill Gates once got a lesson about this from someone...

Now we get to have this scene twice in movies about Apple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NofkWBp1LFA

 

[kame-sennin]

He was a great innovator and visionary but he was always an asshole that used people to his own gain.
I never really have had much respect for him as a person.

He was a hypocrite that wanted to control people under his own rules.
This was seen in his personal life as well as the way apple thought towards consumers request and desires. Not caring what they want and just building what they want you to want.

"If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses." - Henry Ford

 

[Technosteve]

In the end, Apple got them back they stole the notification tray (which by the way a genuinely a Google creation) and made it better....then Google made it betterer!

By stealing from Web OS and Windows 7 *rim shot*

Ok i'm done i need to sleep, everyone should get the book and we can have a nice conversation about it next week.

 

[BocoDragon]

"If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses." - Henry Ford

Brilliant quote.

Reminds me of the early days of the Wii, when a large segment of GAFfers were outright offended that perhaps the future of console gaming wasn't just going to be an ever faster series of boxes + dual shock-alike.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Pirate of SV has so many clips that can be used in this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBri-xgYvHQ&feature=related

 

[Salsa]

I think you make pretty good arguments with out defaulting to LoL Apple.

I dont have anything against Apple other than me personally not liking their current business model. Im one of the people that think that Apple sells at the price it does because of brand recognition, and that it directly affects me as a customer since i (as many) cant afford one of their products, let alone keep upgrading at the rate they do. I dont like that whole Apple religious thing that grew around the companies latest outings and i think it just hurts the overall consumer.

Now, dont get me wrong, i dont mean that in a "i hate apple because i cant afford it" way, i am just fine without my iphone. The thing is that i believe i (and many) should be able to afford it (specially considering what it costs to make, and the revenue they get from each unit sold), so when Steve Jobs bashes the opposition for providing just that (a cheaper alternative, or rather an alternative where you can choose what you're gonna get, still with market-leading features), an alternative that to me costs what it should cost (wether its an Android phone in this case or something like the Amazon Fire (guess he wasnt too happy about that either)), it bothers me. Keep in mind that im making only one argument here, albeit the one that rubs me most i guess.

I want freedom to do as i please as a customer, i dont want the market to be shut down to "get this or get nothing" (wich in its way coincides with their whole closed platform and software model, but that's another thing to discuss ), so i always get kinda annoyed when someone like Jobs goes out and makes statements like this.

 

[Angelus Errare]

By stealing from Web OS and Windows 7 *rim shot*

Ok i'm done i need to sleep, everyone should get the book and we can have a nice conversation about it next week.

I'm not too familiar with WP7's notification tray but isn't it WebOS's tray?

 

[Jamesfrom818]

By stealing from Web OS and Windows 7 *rim shot*

Ok i'm done i need to sleep, everyone should get the book and we can have a nice conversation about it next week.

As a TouchPad and Android user, Android's notification tray shits all over WebOS's.

 

[kehs]

This is what I think that upset steve, Google's business model from the start of Android was to get as much mobile ad revenue as possible, and to get new users to use their services. From a technology stand point Apple was thinking they were going to be competing against multiple dominate companies that was going to produce different unique vision of what a smartphone would be with touch. Instead they were fighting one company that was giving away apples competitive advantage to everyone!

But i also have to say this is real life business, you find a winning product you mimic it and sell it for a lower price. This is done in every market. That is the realities of life.

I think that's where the divide comes in, as to what should be protected ideas and what not (software patents vs tech patents).

Definitely picking up the book, sounds like a good read.

 

[Electric Brain]

no one's debating that

but saying that no one would have produced a phone finger touch-screen only, considering there were already devices on the market that people were using without a pen, and that you know, its a phone, makes sense you use your thumb is rather ludicrous.

it was just feedback reaction. The Idea is always to comunicate the fastest and most comfortably, the less in the way the better. It was already evolving towards that and as you said Apple triggered it. Would it have taken longer, specially to be "the norm"? maybe, probably, but its hardly what i give Apple most credit for.

Funny that you say that, because it's exactly that that made the iPhone so amazing. The software that guided the touch experience.

I marvelled at several things about the multitouch screen. Firstly, yes, multitouch. I had never seen that before. I realise Apple may not have invented the hardware, but the way that screen was implemented... the software... was absolutely mind-blowing. The way it was 'smart' and avoided spurious touching. The way activations and taps worked and responded toy our touch. The swipes, and gestures. The near 1:1 nature of the movement of scrolling under your finger (the first time I encountered that was the level screen on Ouendan, but it felt so much better on the iPhone - even for ages after, people were still using buttons, scroll bars and other non-reactive touch scrolling). The physics in the scrolling - the inertia was just so natural. The super-smart touch keyboard that had type-checking (people often misunderstood it for spell-checking, but it was MORE than that - it changed hit-box sizes based on the word it thought you were typing). ALL this stuff made the UI feel so natural and comfortable to use.


And they never half-baked that part of the OS. They got it right and hit it out of the park from day one. You can bet any other evolution without Apple would have been slow and cumbersome getting to the same point.

On top of that, all the sensors initially seemed superfluous to me, such as the ambient light sensor, the proximity sensors, the accelerometers for orientation. I thought they were all just gimmicks. It wasn't until I got mine that I truly realised that every little detail was added to make the phone 'just work' with as little friction as possible. The light sensor helped for battery life, a huge deal to everyone. The proximity sensor wasn't even really noticed until some update or next model had a worse sensor, and people noticed THEN how important it really was. The accelerometers seemed like a huge gimmick, but were hugely influential on how the device was used.

It lacked a lot of stuff - but more important than what it didn't do, or was ever going to "eventually" be done by someone was how much the iPhone got right the very first day of announcement. That is worth marvelling.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I dont have anything against Apple other than me personally not liking their current business model. Im one of the people that think that Apple sells at the price it does because of brand recognition, and that it directly affects me as a customer since i (as many) cant afford one of their products, let alone keep upgrading at the rate they do. I dont like that whole Apple religious thing that grew around the companies latest outings and i think it just hurts the overall consumer.

Now, dont get me wrong, i dont mean that in a "i hate apple because i cant afford it" way, i am just fine without my iphone. The thing is that i believe i (and many) should be able to afford it (specially considering what it costs to make, and the revenue they get from each unit sold), so when Steve Jobs bashes the opposition for providing just that (a cheaper alternative, or rather an alternative where you can choose what you're gonna get, still with market-leading features), an alternative that to me costs what it should cost (wether its an Android phone in this case or something like the Amazon Fire (guess he wasnt too happy about that either)), it bothers me. Keep in mind that im making only one argument here, albeit the one that rubs me most i guess.

I want freedom to do as i please as a customer, i dont want the market to be shut down to "get this or get nothing", so i always get kinda annoyed when someone like Jobs goes out and makes statements like this.

There is a free iPhone with contract. What cheaper Android phone is there? If someone's paying me to have an Android device, I'm all for it.

And which 10" Android tablet cost less than $500 at launch?

 

[BocoDragon]

I dont have anything against Apple other than me personally not liking their current business model. Im one of the people that think that Apple sells at the price it does because of brand recognition, and that it directly affects me as a customer since i (as many) cant afford one of their products, let alone keep upgrading at the rate they do. I dont like that whole Apple religious thing that grew around the companies latest outings and i think it just hurts the overall consumer.

Now, dont get me wrong, i dont mean that in a "i hate apple because i cant afford it" way, the thing is that i believe i (and many) should be able to afford it (specially considering what it costs to make, and the revenue they get from each unit sold), so when Steve Jobs bashes the opposition for providing just that (a cheaper alternative, or rather an alternative where you can choose what you're gonna get, still with market-leading features), an alternative that to me costs what it should cost (wether its an Android phone in this case or something like the Amazon Fire (guess he wasnt too happy about that either)), it bothers me.

I want freedom to do as i please as a customer, i dont want the market to be shut down to "get this or get nothing".

My first iPhone in 2008 was $200 with contract. Don't have the money for that, really?

Macs are expensive, I agree.

I do agree that competition is really good. I wish we had more "Windows Phone 7"-style new experiences rather than "Android"-style cheaper open source iOS knockoffs

 

[Salsa]

There is a free iPhone with contract.

not where i live at least at launch

My first iPhone in 2008 was $200 with contract. Don't have the money for that, really?

same


and yes, Apple has a presence here and it doesnt just fall onto whatever the local phone service decides to price. Sister works at Ancel, the local company.

Still, i was talking more in general (was with BocoDragon said with Macs, specially considering most are lesser hardware than what you could get for the same money elsewhere) and release prices, not the prices that we get now (or then) for older hardware.

I was making a comment about the Apple model in general, since that's what Technosteve talked about.

And which 10" Android tablet cost less than $500 at launch?

mentioned the Kindle Fire in that regard, wasnt refering to tablets. (Yet there are Android tablets cheaper than that...)

 

[Angelus Errare]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrA_lm0_ngM&feature=related

There is a free iPhone with contract. What cheaper Android phone is there? If someone's paying me to have an Android device, I'm all for it.

And which 10" Android tablet cost less than $500 at launch?

Asus Transformer

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrA_lm0_ngM&feature=related



Asus Transformer

Good call, looks comparable spec-wise.

 

[Angelus Errare]

It's nice I had one but yet the app selection was pretty bad at the time for tablet apps. So I went iPad2.

 

[CurlySaysX]

android is more of a uiq -and windows mobile hybrid than ios imo.
Home screens, widgets, customizations are all uiq features from early 2000, and the icon for the android app drawer is near identical to the uiq app drawer icon.
For sure ios had a big influence on android, but to assume that android was a straight rip off ios is a little wrong.
posted from my iPhone 4S.