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[Gentleman Jack]

Remember when SF4 was fist being shown around and many pro players including Diago said they hated it, yet they played it anyway because it was going to be the tournament scene game.

This is not unfamiliar grump to any new game in an old franchise venerated by the high-level fighting game community. Similar accusations flew at MvC3. People adapt. The game evolves around early strategies. Hype builds. Sounds healthy to me. Capcom took as few risks as possible with 3rd Strike's return to modern consoles and I'm willing to bet the brand loyalists will outnumber those hoping their wishes for change have been met.

Maybe IV eclipsing HDR is a function of how much money Capcom spent promoting it but with only tournament longevity as the measuring stick of popularity it still doesn't look good for the 'make it the same but more accessible' cause Sirlin breathlessly champions. Ultimately pro gamers will flock to the games with mechanics that really separate the wheat from the chaff. 1-frame links may anger casual gamers but its how pro gamers put food on their tables. If you can't be consistently better in execution in a game than 99% of the rest then why play it competitively?

 

[Kintaro]

The outcry over what, exactly? An optional rebalance where you could undoubtedly toggle on the classic balance?

I hate seeing this HD Remix/Sirlin saltiness. That game was the shit.

It was so the shit...its barely ever seen again. lol

Anyways, only the fans of 3rd Strike will care about this release. Fuck all this rebalance bullshit and let us enjoy our 2D fighting love.

 

[Mr Jared]

David Sirloin single-handedly killed a 10+ year competitive game and community with his arrogance. And if he had his way, Street Fighter IV would have featured a 3D adventure mode where Ryu goes to "ninja school" and a rewind feature to take back your mistakes mid-match.

http://www.lion-gv.com/v09/Portfolio/game-design/street_fighter_iv/sf4-concept-doc.pdf

He had his chance, he screwed up. Big time. He should just stick to his card game and leave the community alone.

 

[DatBreh]

This is not unfamiliar grump to any new game in an old franchise venerated by the high-level fighting game community. Similar accusations flew at MvC3. People adapt. The game evolves around early strategies. Hype builds. Sounds healthy to me. Capcom took as few risks as possible with 3rd Strike's return to modern consoles and I'm willing to bet the brand loyalists will outnumber those hoping their wishes for change have been met.

Maybe IV eclipsing HDR is a function of how much money Capcom spent promoting it but with only tournament longevity as the measuring stick of popularity it still doesn't look good for the 'make it the same but more accessible' cause Sirlin breathlessly champions. Ultimately pro gamers will flock to the games with mechanics that really separate the wheat from the chaff. 1-frame links may anger casual gamers but its how pro gamers put food on their tables. If you can't be consistently better in execution in a game than 99% of the rest then why play it competitively?

Pro gamers dont flock to games based on the difficulty of their mechanics. Execution is only part of what separates players. I play against friends who are much better than me at 1 frame links and FADC ( I pretty much use neither) but im better at understanding setups and situations, which will always give you the advantage IMO. Thats what truly separates pro players from the rest of us. Sure they have the execution but they also are better at reading situations and staying in situations where they have the advantage.

David Sirloin single-handedly killed a 10+ year competitive game and community with his arrogance.

Thats a little much dont you think? People didnt stop playing ST because HDR showed up. ST already had a very small community of players who were still active.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

And hell, don't go to Capcom. Go to the fighting-game community. They study this stuff and actively seek out ways to break the game for their own advantage -- better they do it in beta than after release.

This is what Sirlin actively did for HDR. And the very people he went asking for advice turned their back on the game after 18 months. Time well spent?

 

[Fersis]

David Sirloin single-handedly killed a 10+ year competitive game and community with his arrogance. And if he had his way, Street Fighter IV would have featured a 3D adventure mode where Ryu goes to "ninja school" and a rewind feature to take back your mistakes mid-match.

http://www.lion-gv.com/v09/Portfolio/game-design/street_fighter_iv/sf4-concept-doc.pdf

He had his chance, he screwed up. Big time. He should just stick to his card game and leave the community alone.

Damn. And then Ono is the troll.

I respect his work and understand his view about 3rd Strike OE... but i agree with Capcom decission of not touching 3rd Strike balance.
(HDR didnt work well for them after all)

 

[Ratba]

I'll 720 this bad boy up.

Thanks!

 

[MiniBossBattle]

David Sirloin single-handedly killed a 10+ year competitive game and community with his arrogance. And if he had his way, Street Fighter IV would have featured a 3D adventure mode where Ryu goes to "ninja school" and a rewind feature to take back your mistakes mid-match.

http://www.lion-gv.com/v09/Portfolio/game-design/street_fighter_iv/sf4-concept-doc.pdf

He had his chance, he screwed up. Big time. He should just stick to his card game and leave the community alone.

I worked in unreal 3 but I don't think I would want a Street Fighter in that engine. I dunno how I would feel about that flashback feature.

Why the hate on David Sirloin? He did seem a bit sure of himself when I went to his GDC talk about 3 years ago. I am FG ignorant.

 

[Kintaro]

Now, with all that business out of the way, I can go back to hunting for a good avatar from my namesake (Sean).

 

[Slamtastic]

Now, with all that business out of the way, I can go back to hunting for a good avatar from my namesake

 

[OmnipotentO]

Claiming this one if that's okay

 

[Fersis]

I worked in unreal 3 but I don't think I would want a Street Fighter in that engine. I dunno how I would feel about that flashback feature.

Why the hate on David Sirloin? He did seem a bit sure of himself when I went to his GDC talk about 3 years ago. I am FG ignorant.

Sirlin is a very smart dude, hes trying to bring the FG genre to the masses and hes not afraid of pissing OGs or hardcores.
Check his GDD for SFIV is pretty cool but its not what 'we' (Hardcore) want. He could do an amazing job with a brand new Fighting game though.

 

[obonicus]

This is what Sirlin actively did for HDR. And the very people he went asking for advice turned their back on the game after 18 months. Time well spent?

I'm aware of this, it doesn't actually invalidate the practice. No one told Capcom to put the community members in charge of the game, or to give it to as controversial a figure as Sirlin (and let's not forget that Capcom also gave the game to Backbone). There's no magical spreadsheet they can plug numbers into, the only way you'll get a game that as unbroken as possible balance-wise is to get people trying to break it. QA can only go so far, and it's probably cheaper to try and outsource to people who have proven they can play at a high level than try and build an internal team to keep on retainer.

 

[Slamtastic]

Sirlin is a very smart dude, hes trying to bring the FG genre to the masses and hes not afraid of pissing OGs or hardcores.

I applaud him for that, but think there could be a better way to do it than anything he outlined in SFIV "Flashback".

 

[Lost Fragment]

Why the hate on David Sirloin? He did seem a bit sure of himself when I went to his GDC talk about 3 years ago. I am FG ignorant.

On top of everything else that's been said, HDR's release also means that we're probably not going to get a legit re-release of ST anytime soon.

 

[Brobzoid]

HDR was fucked by backbone and udon. whatever sirlin did doesn't even matter.

 

[Slamtastic]

I'm confused by the whole HDR issues. Is there no "Classic" option in the game? Obviously if so that's a problem.

 

[Kintaro]

lol nice.

 

[Lyte Edge]

You guys keep shitting all over Sirlin (his comments towards Haunts do suck though), but he and how HD Remix turned out have nothing to do with how a rebalanced 3rd Strike could have turned out. Different developers. No redrawn Udon art. No new Street Fighter game coming out several months later.

But whatever...I'm just going to be playing this game until KOF XIII hits. With its rebalanced mode.

I'm confused by the whole HDR issues. Is there no "Classic" option in the game? Obviously if so that's a problem.

There is...game play is all there, but the graphics are not. You can only use the old sprites, not the old backgrounds.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

I'm aware of this, it doesn't actually invalidate the practice.

I don't disagree. I only argue that any company's time/money spent on rebalancing a decade old fighting game, be it 3rd Strike or HDR, is completely wasted, as it's equivalent to building up a new game from scratch. I'd happy to get 3rd Strike now, rather than have it compete for my attention up against Skyrim, MW3, etc.

In my happy place, I'd release 3SOE as a PC port, and let the modding community build whatever balanced world they choose. This stabilizes the tourney crowd with an official release and keeps the masses happy as they can nerf Yun/Chun/Ken into the ground and give Q 20-hit combos. For fun.

 

[ShaneB]

I'm confused by the whole HDR issues. Is there no "Classic" option in the game? Obviously if so that's a problem.

Yes there is. Which makes it a bigger issue than what Sirlin did. Ah well, I very much enjoyed HDR, and it pretty much got me back into fighting games after a long hiatus, and then pumped for sf4.

edit: beaten

 

[onken]

So this will be out on Japanese PSN in about 6-8 hours, yes?

 

[Lyte Edge]

So this will be out on Japanese PSN in about 6-8 hours, yes?

Is this game even coming out in Japan? HD Remix didn't.

 

[Slamtastic]

In my happy place, I'd release 3SOE as a PC port, and let the modding community build whatever balanced world they choose. This stabilizes the tourney crowd with an official release and keeps the masses happy as they can nerf Yun/Chun/Ken into the ground and give Q 20-hit combos. For fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmOjyB5j0jc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vs8ateOoX8

There is...game play is all there, but the graphics are not. You can only use the old sprites, not the old backgrounds.

That's kind of arbitrary and stupid.

It's also not in 4:3.

And that's a real issue of concern.

 

[Kimosabae]

Sirloin, while polemical, wasn't disrespectful to Haunts, I thought. The ideas Haunts represents with his review is what's being attacked, here.

3s:OE is just the ultimate catch 22 in fighting games. I honestly don't expect it to sell. There's just little potentially interesting about the game at this point-it is SOOO established.

 

[Lost Fragment]

There is...game play is all there, but the graphics are not. You can only use the old sprites, not the old backgrounds.

It's also not in 4:3.

 

[QisTopTier]

LOL good ol sirlin the guy that BUFFED THE SHIT out of his favorite character in SSF2T HD

But it's ok he got good advice from the community for everything overall! *sarcasm*

As for all those remix tracks some sound good some sound like they are barely starting up... They better have 3 parts to them like the originals *based on round in the match* if not well...

 

[Lyte Edge]

It's also not in 4:3.

Yes it is. The option is available.

That's kind of arbitrary and stupid.

Yup; no excuse not to have the classic backgrounds.

 

[ElFly]

The hate on Sirlin is really stupid.

Guy broke his back trying to get a really good version of super turbo, but the timing of SF4 killed any interest in the game the community had, period. Maybe if Udon hadn't interfered and the game had been done earlier, it'd be different.

 

[QisTopTier]

The hate on Sirlin is really stupid.

Guy broke his back trying to get a really good version of super turbo, but the timing of SF4 killed any interest in the game the community had, period. Maybe if Udon hadn't interfered and the game had been done earlier, it'd be different.

I played the crap out of it personally, hell I even liked the HD sprites even if the art wasnt all that great, it was something nice and clean and new to look at. But some of the overall changes to the game really fucked it up, akuma being selectable didn't do much favors either.

 

[Kimosabae]

The HDR/Sirlin hate is absolutely one of the most perplexing things I've ever come across.

 

[Zombie James]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmOjyB5j0jc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vs8ateOoX8

This 4rd Strike thing is just broken.

 

[Kintaro]

3s:OE is just the ultimate catch 22 in fighting games. I honestly don't expect it to sell. There's just little potentially interesting about the game at this point-it is SOOO established.

I think it'll sell pretty decently. It's going to be the best port of the game that I can think of.

 

[ElFly]

At this point, why would you trust anyone at Capcom then? Ono's third shot at SF4? AE. Marvell vs. Capcom 2 wasn't balanced by players played the shit out it. MvC3 isn't balanced. Who knows about Ultimate MvC3 (going on history? Doubtful). SF X Tekken? Doubt it.

SSF4 was balanced. It wasn't perfect, but it was way better than 4 and anything street fightery since...alpha 2?

AE was intentionally unbalanced, though, which is disappointing. The only reason I can fathom was to attract the market of people who wanted to play as an overpowered character.

 

[onken]

Is this game even coming out in Japan? HD Remix didn't.

It is, Famitsu has it releasing today.

 

[DatBreh]

The hate on Sirlin is really stupid.

Guy broke his back trying to get a really good version of super turbo, but the timing of SF4 killed any interest in the game the community had, period. Maybe if Udon hadn't interfered and the game had been done earlier, it'd be different.

This is true. My friends list had a lot of people playing HDR until 4 dropped then everyone went to that.

 

[QisTopTier]

This 4rd Strike thing is just broken.

LOL I always laughed at how horribly broken Oro looked in it.

 

[KAL2006]

So this is releasing tommorow, I hope this game sells well then maybe Capcom would consider making an online edition of my favourite 2D fighter Capcom VS SNK 2

 

[Onion_Relish]

Holy shit, this design document from sirlin is so bad it is giving me all sorts of diseases they havent even heard of yet. Funny though how dan being the trainer essentially made it into the game. But yeah, HDR was fun for a little while but I always saw it as a hype tool for SF4. I still jump on and bring my ass chun-li to the table sometimes, but AE is just a better game imo

 

[Ratba]

So this will be out on Japanese PSN in about 6-8 hours, yes?

10:30am here in Osaka and it isn't up yet...

 

[spindashing]

This 4rd Strike thing is just broken.

I never liked American cars.

 

[Kintaro]

SSF4 was balanced. It wasn't perfect, but it was way better than 4 and anything street fightery since...alpha 2?

AE was intentionally unbalanced, though, which is disappointing. The only reason I can fathom was to attract the market of people who wanted to play as an overpowered character.

SSF4 was pretty well done, yes. But it was dumped. Question is this: If players hate unbalanced games so much, why was AE picked up in place of SSF4? Shouldn't Evo have said "No, this is not better than SSF4. We will continue using that" or something to that effect? Why pick up the broken game players complain about?

Answer: Players probably don't give as much of a fuck as we think. lol

 

[ElFly]

SSF4 was pretty well done, yes. But it was dumped. Question is this: If players hate unbalanced games so much, why was AE picked up in place of SSF4? Shouldn't Evo have said "No, this is not better than SSF4. We will continue using that" or something to that effect? Why pick up the broken game players complain about?

Answer: Players probably don't give as much of a fuck as we think. lol

The player base is terrible. We've been over this.

 

[QisTopTier]

Answer: Players probably don't give as much of a fuck as we think. lol

New games are always more fun cause it gives new "puzzles" and stuff to figure out

But for tournaments? I feel it's a bit... well a bad choice Seriously SSF4 was about as close to perfect as capcom was gonna get with the game.

 

[sixteen-bit]

So this is releasing tommorow, I hope this game sells well then maybe Capcom would consider making an online edition of my favourite 2D fighter Capcom VS SNK 2

I don't think Capcom could do it alone considering it makes use of another company's entire catalog too.

 

[zlatko]

Do not speak of Sirlin. He WILL kill your family. Mine is in constant danger when I play SF4.

Seriously though, why is he shitting on haunts? I mean I read both the review, and Sirlin's response, and Sirlin is dumb. haunts reviewed the game----the product given to him, and not a tier list. Shit I better go write off all of KoF 13's arcade version just because Raiden can do 90% brainlessly... sorry, but no.

Personally, I would have loved a rebalance, but at the same time I don't want to see the game get a new boost in the tournament scene to be an evo game next year. Could you imagine EVO 2012 with SFxT, SF4, and SF3:OE all as main games? That's too much SF love... let some other games have their time to shine. Like mentioned, SF3 had its time, and at this point it should just be enjoyed for what it is and be played for funsies.

Sirlin should have been more upset at the tiers and bitched about that... not at haunts for giving a $15.00 downloadable game some love for Capcom delivering that 10 year old game to the present with more content to give that 10 year old fun times to a new school of players.

 

[Nori Chan]

This will be my first time playing 3rd strike so I'm really looking forward to it.

Probably going to main Yun.

 

[Lazy vs Crazy]

I don't think Capcom could do it alone considering it makes use of another company's entire catalog too.

And as much as people are saying SF3 needs a rebalance, CVS2 is way more broken.

 

[kitzkozan]

SSF4 was pretty well done, yes. But it was dumped. Question is this: If players hate unbalanced games so much, why was AE picked up in place of SSF4? Shouldn't Evo have said "No, this is not better than SSF4. We will continue using that" or something to that effect? Why pick up the broken game players complain about?

Answer: Players probably don't give as much of a fuck as we think. lol

AE has been more entertaining to watch than super imo, except for some moment of brilliance like the Daigo vs Valle Ryu mirror last year. Balance is all fine and dandy, but people need to remember the characters at the top of the tier list in super. Boring version of Chun Li, Honda, Boxer, Dictator, Guile, etc.

Justin Wong finally admitted in public that he hated SSFIV because it was a defensive game with mostly charge/mediocre characters being at the top. I'm sure many were thinking just like him...

Anyway, I agree with Haunts about 3rd strike. The game will not enjoy a revival in NA since the US was and is still ass at the game. The last tournament at EVO 2K9 was pathetic to say the least and the skill gap with Japan is not even worth mentioning. Fans of the game will have the best version of it and probably a better pool of online competition and that's about the best we can get in 2011 outside of a risky "rebalance".

 

[zlatko]

And as much as people are saying SF3 needs a rebalance, CVS2 is way more broken.

I've heard this a lot, and it boils down to roll cancelling right? That's what completely made the game stupid at the pro scene I take it?

What if they kept all the shit for a CvS2 Online Edition the same, but ONLY took out roll cancelling? It would shift up the tiers and a bit more, but wouldn't that be a way to "fix" the game, but without alienating the OG guys?