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Street Fighter V |OT3| Frauds Among Us
- Thread starter Garrett Hawke
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Who is scarier on knockdown? I haven't found a character lol.
You either get scooped or if you try to attack OR jump, you get counterhit by her uppercut command normal into airplane.
Not until pretty late in the animation i think. Shoryus are throw inv as well as hit inv for a few frames
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
I'm not trying to compare one to the other, I'm just saying people's complaints really should be directed at themselves for not learning matchups rather than calling a character cheap.
As a Nash player, playing Giefs makes me legit feel bad sometimes. He can win for sure, but a lot of that can depend on if Nash fucks up. Nash can have near complete control of that match-up.
Romars202129
Member
In better hands he is,lol. But thanks,thats a mean Ken as well.
Fighting a strong Nash is what made me consider finding an alt
Then eventually switching lmao so thanks Nash for helping me find my character
I apologize for the delay, my Youtube video has been processing for hours now :S
Basically, I put down the banana against a Zangief, and the Zangief dashed forward just out of the banana's range and did his CA. I was right next to him, I was not jumping before the flash (checked inputs), so I should've got hit by his CA. But the banana got him after the CA flash, even though I was dead to rights. Since its a 1 frame grab, that means during that frame the banana took priority. The whole "0 frame" thing is more of a joke.
I will post the video as soon as it's done processing on Youtube (refresh, refresh, refresh)
As a Mika main, I disagree. I think Laura is far scarier up close.
If Mika gets in and pokes you with MP, you block it, you can back dash or jump out without worrying too much. If Mika does Passion Press during your dash or jump, she can't complete the Passion Press. If she does a command grab, she's totally free. She can't do 6HP because it has a little bit of startup and doesn't work like that. Mika can't Crush Counter in that situation unless she does 5HK -uncharged- and that move is unsafe on block upclose and has startup. The only thing she can do is either Wingless Airplane if you jump or dash in to maintain pressure, and the Mika would have to know that you're going to do that. She can maybe do her Slide but it has startup and it's incredibly unsafe on block. Mika and Fang undoubtedly have the worst sweeps in the game when it comes to how punishable they are on block.
By comparison, Laura has true blockstrings and once she activates V-Trigger her EX Fireball becomes totally safe on block. So she could do MP, EX Fireball, and do it again until she has no meter. If you backdash or jump, she can catch you with 5HP which has good range and not much startup and can Crush Counter. 5HP is unsafe upclose but it's difficult to read after Laura does a 5MP or a 2HP or 2MP. She can also throw in a surprise V-Skill overhead which can catch you off guard and if you're jumping or backdashing will definitely result in a Crush Counter.
Laura is an overall better character but Mika has better command grabs and she's got Nadeshiko.
FINALLY had time to sit down and play the damn game. I made it one match in and dragged off to a home show.
BUT when I got home I got some matches in. Went from 300 lp to over 1000 on my PS4 account pretty fast. PC is in the 500 range I think, I'll bring it up next.
Only bump in the road was a low LP Dhalsim that seemed to lag in just the right ways that I kept dropping easy punishes. Also I really need to fight against Dhalsim more often...probably the second one I've ever seen including the betas.
BUT when I got home I got some matches in. Went from 300 lp to over 1000 on my PS4 account pretty fast. PC is in the 500 range I think, I'll bring it up next.
Only bump in the road was a low LP Dhalsim that seemed to lag in just the right ways that I kept dropping easy punishes. Also I really need to fight against Dhalsim more often...probably the second one I've ever seen including the betas.
I can play. CFN is FluxWaveZ; going online now.
I think Necalli and Bison are WAY scarier on wakeup. They have some ungodly meaty normals. They can keep pounding on you, and pressuring you with them. They are frame trap gods. Mika's throw is five frames, so if you don't see her flexing (HP) mash jab.
Garrett Hawke
Member
what an odd sentence
I agree. But I also understand why people complain about Mika rather than Laura since it's far easier to keep Laura out and also she isn't as scary as Mika up close. That being said, Laura won a European major recently so what do I know?
My personal tier list is probably laughable tbh. Not a lot of people agree with my tier observations lol. For example, I think Birdie will end up being bottom 3 when it's all said and done. He gets away with too much garbage right now like unpunished v-skills and yolo command grab hop.
After having gone against CountBlack's Laura and some others, I disagree that Mika is scarier up close. Laura and Mika are pretty much as scary when they're in your face, and they both can violently swing the course of the match in their favor.
Edit: lmao, forgot to set my favorite character back.
My, it's way to early to say this but I will say it anyway, bottom three are Karin, Rashid, and Necalli. I think Karin and Necalli have some very strong aspects to their game, but I think their holes are some of the biggest. I think Rashid is just a very solid, all-around okay character. However, he is in a game that is filled with killers.
I find Laura scarier because I don't understand her. I am never sure of what she can and can't do. However, she isn't my primary focus at the moment (I am still trying to learn how to fight Gief).
I've been playing Bison for a while and after watching Floe do weird nonsensical crap with him last night I decided to sit down and figure out some frame traps. Turns out I was already doing some of them instinctively. You're right in that Bison has soooo many great options when you knock them down...but when the shoe's on the other foot it's not pretty.
AkelisRain
Member
I have time for a set or two, anyone want to play? (Bel Air,MD) East USA
abstract alien
Member
Lol I'd love to see this.
Do meaty forward H. Trust me. Thank me later. That shit is +3 on block. That means you either crush counter into wingless airplane into ANOTHER knockdown or you are at +3 frame advantage to do whatever the hell you want. Oh yeah and that +3 on block is a true blockstring into st. jab which is +2 on block which frame traps a lot of other stuff. You don't have to yolo command grab or make hard reads. Her risk/reward is insane. Frame trap, frame trap, frame trap, oh by the way I have a command grab. Knocked down, frame trap, frame trap, frame trap. Etc.
Bison is easy to deal with when u're knocked down. He doesn't really have a mixup lol. I guess throw sorta. Just block him and don't hit buttons because he's + on block on all his moves. Once he's out of range, he's screwed. You see him disappear and just hit jab. If he does devil's reverse or something, just anti air. He's overrated.
Necalli is similar except with stubbier normals and a SLOW command grab. Just stop hitting buttons and wait him out. Hell, v-reversal if the pressure is that high.
Yeah, if it works similarly to tonLaura's anti-air elbow then you can catch neary every special and normal with airborne frames in the game, if your reactions or guesses are on point.
How can you emphasize how slow is grab is but be fearful of Mika's whose is only one frame faster?
I still say both of them are way better than Mika on downed opponents. I still don't see what you think is so frightening about Mika in that situation specifically.
Here's another weird sentence:
Zangief's Critical Art is invulnerable and unthrowable, but it is also banana-able.
Note I'm actually not sure if it's invulnerable or unthrowable. I can't find a source to actually says that, but most CA's are.
I am now suddenly worried that I was just out of range of the CA. It must've been a pixel if that's the case, but his whiff animation does move forward a step or two. It really doesn't look like it.
Dallas thinks Rashid is the worst character in the game lol. He has a lot of unsafe stuff, but noone said you had to do anything that sucks or use them in a conventional way. A fireball that has 100 frames of startup and 50 recovery frames could still be GOOD but that doesn't mean you have to throw it like you're Ryu. I think Rashid will end up being mid-tier. He doesn't do any damage is his main problem. However, he has some nasty nasty stuff. Hell, I showed my friend some tech the other day that I'm hoping he'll show off in tournament. I don't really want to reveal it until then though lol.
I don't know who will be bottom three. If I had to guess now, I'd say Laura, Birdie, and FANG but I don't have enough experience to say that definitively. I'm only Super Silver and only get to play a limited number of characters often because my scene is small. Actually Karin might be bad. I've only played a few people that use her. I don't think she has that many options to force her game on anyone else.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
Karin player UrbanTurbanGamin is a little baby who didn't want to give up his super silver points.
Probably a chronic fraud judging by his stats.
http://sfv.fightinggame.community/player/UrbanTurbanGamin
Probably a chronic fraud judging by his stats.
http://sfv.fightinggame.community/player/UrbanTurbanGamin
Birdie low tier? Like we can argue whether he's high tier or not, but there's no way he's lower than mid.
Fang I'd agree with, Laura no. Rashid is a possibility, as is cammy in my mind.
You're not really good at listening/reading comprehension. No offense. I was referring to if Mika does stMP, the opponent blocks, and what she can do. She cannot do 6HP, it has too much startup, it will only work on an idiot.
Also, 6HP as a meaty on wakeup works in certain situations:
It depends on Mika's Oki. If Mika lands: EX Peach, a regular throw, or 2LK, 2LP, LP Peach, she absolutely cannot dash in to do meaty 6HP. The opponent can backdash out.
Also, if she does 6HP as a meaty wakeup and the opponent is NOT in the corner, all the opponent has to do is block the 6HP and then they can backdash. They might get tagged by her 5MP but it will not lead to a combo.
And guess what guys? Her 6HP and then 5MP is not a true blockstring. Any character with a good SRK or Super can stop it after they block the 6HP. It's risky, yes, but you can challenge it.
Garrett Hawke
Member
nerf the banana
Errr the guide says that Mika's command grab is 5 and Necalli's command grab is 8... Not to mention that one frame can be the difference between getting interrupted and not interrupted.
That is sorta a jerky way to start a post. No offense.
My bad, I was completely wrong. I was sure it was six frames. Wow, how do I get hit so regularly by a command grab that slow...
abstract alien
Member
I'm still complete shit at hit confirming and always have been. That's pretty much an entry level tourny play tactic and I can't do it.
I said no offense.
Based on what? His damage output? It's really good, but he can't really force his gameplan on anyone else. As soon as he doesn't have the life lead, he's screwed.
TBH I kinda ignored the st. mp stuff because I don't really think you should be spamming it anyway. I mean yeah, maybe her options are limited in that one situation, but guess what? You only need to knock them down once and she's at advantage. She doesn't always win the game after knockdown of course, but it's obviously in her favor. I mean obviously after you do a move that's -2 (or whatever), you don't want to follow that up with a move that's 10 frame startup. I agree there. When Mika corners someone, she dominates. I'll have to show you some matches later I guess. Command grab characters are best when they force their opponents to block via frame traps and anti-airs (See: SFIV Snake Eyez). That's when their command grab game opens up. It's like how Cammy's walkspeed and throw game opens up all her other options. Also, 6HP to 5LP is a blockstring according to the frame data. I'm not sure why you're so intent on doing 5MP that much? I mean, I understand that it's pretty good, but if something's not working, try something else.
AFAIK it is neither, it's just that very close it will grab. Maybe one frame of invincibility at the start, so it is not stuffable, but that's it. e: checking, it seems it has no hittable box in the frame it activates.
It takes practice. I posted on SRK because I couldn't figure out how to do a hit confirm in SFV since it was a lot harder than in SFIV. Just focus on the hitsparks of your first normal, do the second normal, and buffer the special. You can visually confirm whether to hit the button to have the special come out by recognizing what happens with the first normal. Turn on training mode and set block to random to work on this. I do it in while I'm waiting for matches. It takes practice, but I'm sure you'll get it with a little bit of time.
CountBlack
Member
Guide says frames 1-3 fully invincible
Two things:
1 - Rashid's QCB+K is a Destroyer of AI Worlds
2 - Even if you turn down everything to low settings for SF5, on stages with 30fps objects and animations, framerate drops still happen, so...poor programming by Capcom there thinking they could do what Nintendo/Capcom did with Smash 3DS.
1 - Rashid's QCB+K is a Destroyer of AI Worlds
2 - Even if you turn down everything to low settings for SF5, on stages with 30fps objects and animations, framerate drops still happen, so...poor programming by Capcom there thinking they could do what Nintendo/Capcom did with Smash 3DS.
Chronospherics
Member
I've been studying this game for a while now, playing Rashid, Nash, Ryu, and Vega but also studying other characters, for a time I wanted to main Rashid, but I don't think so now...
Basically, I don't think Rashid is very good, but I'll talk about how I drew that conclusion.
The way I see the game, is that there are 7 important traits a character can have
- 3 frame normal
- good walk speed (both forward and back)
- good normal's (winning the neutral is important)
- a meterless reversal
- a command throw
- high damage bnbs and light confirms
- good anti-air options (helps locking people down, keeping them out, keeping them in a corner, restricting options)
Rashid has none of these. He loses in neutral because his normals are bad, his damage is low-moderate, his light confirms get next to nothing (spinning mixer does 60-80 damage) and he can only get ex eagle kick combos off of st.mp confirms (e.g. st.mp, st.mp ex eagle, mp spinning mixer) which doesn't hit on crouching opponents and is also really spacing dependent. His reversal requires 1 bar, has an odd angle (they need to come in at the right angle for it to work) and his normal anti-air trades many air to ground approaches. His whirlwind shot (projectile) has perhaps the longest startup and recovery of any projectile in the game, and can't be cancelled off of any decent normal's to combo into anything, he has no command throw.
Ultimately he can't win the neutral and depends on getting up close to his opponent. People say 'rashid can play a mix all about the field, with options in mid, close and long range' and while that's true, a jack of all trades is a master of none. Against characters like Ryu or Ken, Rashid is outclassed in the mid, long and close ranged game. The best aspects of the character are that you can create some solid frametraps, but they push you pretty far back so retaining the pressure is difficult, you can use HK whirlwind shot cancels to roll back into close range but this is unsafe, EX whirlwind cancels are safe at the right range (where all three hits from the whirlwind hit) and this is the only option to getting up close. Against characters like Mika and Laura though, the matchup feels like lose-lose, as Rashid's neutral game isn't strong enough to keep these characters out, and and while you're stronger up close, against these command throwing, high-damage grapplers, you're really outclassed.
When Moon's picked Rashid against Rainbow at NBCL v.4 he demonstrated this really well. Using Rashid as a means of mediating Mika's close range efficacy, but ultimately, for every hit he got, Mika was getting double the damage, for every hit she got. So it didn't amount to enough win the match.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwOfDFYWWvM
The same is true for matchups against characters like Ryu, while Rashid can put a stop to mid-screen fireballs, that doesn't get him in, and he can't threaten with his own. At the close-mid (2-4 character spaces) ranges, Rashid is beat. Ryu can throw fireballs without a reaction roll & punish being feasible, and simply put, his normals, beat Rashid's at this range. Standing MK is Rashid's biggest merits, but naturally it's not special cancellable and it's -2 on block so it gives your opponent momentum. If they get too close to you, they can jump at you with a crossup for free pressure too, you don't have an AA option for this. Rolling and approaching like this is super unsafe, and as opponents get familiar with it, they will realise they can punish rolls for huge damage.
Compared to characters like Chun, who has 5/7 of the traits listed at the start, or Vega who has 4, Ryu who has 3, etc. It feels like Rashid is a really lacking character, who just doesn't have enough tools to get the job done. Capcom replaced solid fundamentals with a bunch of wildcards (vskill, vtrigger, running, an aggressive special that's safe on block (spinning mixer)) but this doesn't amount to solid fundamentals. I've looked to the top Rashid's for answers, but it feels as though they don't have them. Every time I see them play top Ryu's or Kens, the shoto's lock them down in the same way I describe. Of course, good players like Sultan, Lamberboi and Gacht take a lot of games, but when they do, it often feels like the opponent outplayed themselves with poor matchup knowledge rather than the Rashid players skill.
Any thoughts? Sorry for the long post.
Basically, I don't think Rashid is very good, but I'll talk about how I drew that conclusion.
The way I see the game, is that there are 7 important traits a character can have
- 3 frame normal
- good walk speed (both forward and back)
- good normal's (winning the neutral is important)
- a meterless reversal
- a command throw
- high damage bnbs and light confirms
- good anti-air options (helps locking people down, keeping them out, keeping them in a corner, restricting options)
Rashid has none of these. He loses in neutral because his normals are bad, his damage is low-moderate, his light confirms get next to nothing (spinning mixer does 60-80 damage) and he can only get ex eagle kick combos off of st.mp confirms (e.g. st.mp, st.mp ex eagle, mp spinning mixer) which doesn't hit on crouching opponents and is also really spacing dependent. His reversal requires 1 bar, has an odd angle (they need to come in at the right angle for it to work) and his normal anti-air trades many air to ground approaches. His whirlwind shot (projectile) has perhaps the longest startup and recovery of any projectile in the game, and can't be cancelled off of any decent normal's to combo into anything, he has no command throw.
Ultimately he can't win the neutral and depends on getting up close to his opponent. People say 'rashid can play a mix all about the field, with options in mid, close and long range' and while that's true, a jack of all trades is a master of none. Against characters like Ryu or Ken, Rashid is outclassed in the mid, long and close ranged game. The best aspects of the character are that you can create some solid frametraps, but they push you pretty far back so retaining the pressure is difficult, you can use HK whirlwind shot cancels to roll back into close range but this is unsafe, EX whirlwind cancels are safe at the right range (where all three hits from the whirlwind hit) and this is the only option to getting up close. Against characters like Mika and Laura though, the matchup feels like lose-lose, as Rashid's neutral game isn't strong enough to keep these characters out, and and while you're stronger up close, against these command throwing, high-damage grapplers, you're really outclassed.
When Moon's picked Rashid against Rainbow at NBCL v.4 he demonstrated this really well. Using Rashid as a means of mediating Mika's close range efficacy, but ultimately, for every hit he got, Mika was getting double the damage, for every hit she got. So it didn't amount to enough win the match.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwOfDFYWWvM
The same is true for matchups against characters like Ryu, while Rashid can put a stop to mid-screen fireballs, that doesn't get him in, and he can't threaten with his own. At the close-mid (2-4 character spaces) ranges, Rashid is beat. Ryu can throw fireballs without a reaction roll & punish being feasible, and simply put, his normals, beat Rashid's at this range. Standing MK is Rashid's biggest merits, but naturally it's not special cancellable and it's -2 on block so it gives your opponent momentum. If they get too close to you, they can jump at you with a crossup for free pressure too, you don't have an AA option for this. Rolling and approaching like this is super unsafe, and as opponents get familiar with it, they will realise they can punish rolls for huge damage.
Compared to characters like Chun, who has 5/7 of the traits listed at the start, or Vega who has 4, Ryu who has 3, etc. It feels like Rashid is a really lacking character, who just doesn't have enough tools to get the job done. Capcom replaced solid fundamentals with a bunch of wildcards (vskill, vtrigger, running, an aggressive special that's safe on block (spinning mixer)) but this doesn't amount to solid fundamentals. I've looked to the top Rashid's for answers, but it feels as though they don't have them. Every time I see them play top Ryu's or Kens, the shoto's lock them down in the same way I describe. Of course, good players like Sultan, Lamberboi and Gacht take a lot of games, but when they do, it often feels like the opponent outplayed themselves with poor matchup knowledge rather than the Rashid players skill.
Any thoughts? Sorry for the long post.
One of the best v-skills in the game, probably the best AA in the game, great footsies, command grabs, insane damage, good v-trigger, tied with best health in the game. There's nothing *bad* about birdie, so there's no way he's low tier.
He has plenty of ways to approach his opponent, saying he can't get in when he has a life deficit is silly.
GGs. Slowly figuring out the Chun-Li MU...
Sent you an invite, if you're still available.
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