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Street Fighter V |OTVIII| New Delayed Generation - Controversial Inputs

Plateaued in terms of my understanding of the game and my character. Understanding my character in a few months was understandable but having fully figured out the system by a few months with nothing more left to discover? That just didn't sit right with me.

I had already realized by August/September that CCs were a busted mechanic, that "neutral" was non-existent and that rushdown was king. Reactive play didn't really matter and that fireballs and shoryukens (AAs in general) were clearly not a high priority.

I don't generally agree with the whole "this game is random" angle but if ever there was a game where this statement could KIND OF apply to, it's this game. Games like Marvel 3 at least have the advantage of more defensive options, movement options and just the fact that wackiness and difficult-to-react to situations in that game is sort of the point.

I don't mean plateau in terms of skill but that's mainly because skill ceased to matter after reaching a certain threshold (which was what a LOT of people have been complaining about). As a highly defensive and reactive player, my "skill" and understanding against the opponent didn't matter as most situations ultimately came down to way too many 50/50s for "skill" to make any difference. Again, this was the first SF I started to try and "git gud" at so when I started playing other fighting games more seriously, I started seeing what I was missing out on. Killer Instinct in particular is a game that stole my heart as it allowed for the type of play that I wanted WITH CHARACTER's THAT WEREN'T EVEN DESIGNED FOR IT.

I have said this MANY times before in the SFV OTs that all the problems I have with the game are things that they CAN fix. Sure the combos won't be long in this game, but at least have neutral situations matter more than who jumped in/dashed in first. Sure you're making almost every character offense oriented but that doesn't mean you remove defensive options from the game. But I just know that they aren't going to fix ANY of that because they've had two separate balancing opportunities now and in both of them, they removed/nerfed defensive options.
You complete me...

Also, gonna take your advice and go slow into GG...my copy arrives today!

I still dibble and dabble in SFV. I think it's fairly easy to add some better neutral, but it's nice to see my early gripes come to the surface with more and more people. The game is just too rush-down, 'one mistake and you're dead' focused. And when you can basically die off a blocked DP, I still don't understand those types of changes at all, Ken or Ryu would not be top tier right now if all there DP had invincible startup frames. The shoto play overall is based around neutral (less so for Ken) and neutral is just not that strong. But Nerf DP? it's better now, but still, that was a crazy boneheaded decision that no one was seemingly screaming for. or why V-reversals don't work well on all buttons but lights. But, I'm done theory fighting, it's up to Capcom to make it better, I play it very very casually now and just watch the pros, who are pretty entertaining because they are good enough to where the 50/50 set play isn't as effective, so you do still see the skill come out in tourney scenes some. Some easy fixes IMO are just make most of the cast sweeps more safe (Like Karin for example) and buff V-reverals. Just simple stuff really lol

But Capcom gonna Capcom...Thankfully we actually are finally get true alternatives to Street Fighter, and DBFZ looks like some of the most amazing pieces of carnage I've ever graced in a fighting engine, looking forward to that!
 

mbpm1

Member
Skill in sfv is more about how you deal with unfavorable 50/50 situations. You will end up knocked down or at least at negative frames in the corner, multiple times potentially. How you get out of that place is key.

Occasionally interesting to watch, but not really fun to play for me ATM.
 
Reading some of the stuff in this thread reminds me of all the things I want changed as well. Sure I would like a improved normals for all, faster walk speeds, nerfed dashes, lower input lag, forward and back throws basically causing a reset mid screen, and a few other things. But I don't believe that Capcom is willing to make such drastic changes to the game in a completely different direction.

Them nerfing stuff like the jump back OS shows that they don't want more defensive options, they want you to deal with that guessing game instead. Unfortunately I think the game we're playing now is the same game we'll be playing for the next 4-5 years. I still like the game, but I do feel it can be better if some of the suggestions from the community whether it came from here or from pro's were implemented.
 
Reading some of the stuff in this thread reminds me of all the things I want changed as well. Sure I would like a improved normals for all, faster walk speeds, nerfed dashes, lower input lag, forward and back throws basically causing a reset mid screen, and a few other things. But I don't believe that Capcom is willing to make such drastic changes to the game in a completely different direction.

Them nerfing stuff like the jump back OS shows that they don't want more defensive options, they want you to deal with that guessing game instead. I really do believe this is the game we're playing now is the same game we'll be playing for the next 4-5 years. I still like the game, but I do feel it can be better if some of the suggestions from the community whether it'd be here or from pro's were implemented.

Yeah I don't think the game is changing either, which is why I find it strange that people are clamoring for new vtriggers and supers or crying about balance. At the end of the day, it will still be the same game. This is the way Capcom wanted SFV to be.
 

ElFly

Member
they are nerfing OS in general, regardless of them being offensive or defensive options

they want people to learn the game, not to learn weird input tricks that play the game for them

as for defensive options, they should at least improve V-reversal to be really really good. V-bar is your greatest resource for a lot of people, since so many V-Triggers are so so good, yet using V-reversals is rarely a good idea
 
Yeah I don't think the game is changing either, which is why I find it strange that people are clamoring for new vtriggers and supers or crying about balance. At the end of the day, it will still be the same game. This is the way Capcom wanted SFV to be.

Not gonna lie I'm one of those dudes. In the end other changes are more important and should have more priority when it comes to wanting to improve the game. But it'd be nice to have a new Super or V skill just to have a new move to play around with. We just went through 7 years of SF4 where nobody got a new special. Correct me if I'm wrong on that because I can't remember one(and no, Omega doesn't count).
 
Yeah I don't think the game is changing either, which is why I find it strange that people are clamoring for new vtriggers and supers or crying about balance. At the end of the day, it will still be the same game. This is the way Capcom wanted SFV to be.
Deep down, we all know nothing major is gonna change with this game so I guess it's like trying to make the best of a bad situation in some ways.

they want people to learn the game, not to learn weird input tricks that play the game for them
When I read stuff like this, I can't help but think of what CB said in the last page.
Also, I think it's because you play this game at such an extraordinary low level that it makes you think that this game is great and for some reason unable to see any faults in it's design but im sleep
 

mbpm1

Member
Not gonna lie I'm one of those dudes. In the end other changes are more important and should have more priority when it comes to wanting to improve the game. But it'd be nice to have a new Super or V skill just to have a new move to play around with. We just went through 7 years of SF4 where nobody got a new special. Correct me if I'm wrong on that because I can't remember one(and no, Omega doesn't count).
Dudley got ex duck I guess
 

ElFly

Member
Deep down, we all know nothing major is gonna change with this game so I guess it's like trying to make the best of a bad situation in some ways.

When I read stuff like this, I can't help but think of what CB said in the last page.

*shrug* people have been abusing OSs so long that they haven't stopped to think they are really stupid game design

sorry that the lack of them expose people who are left without handy tricks to force the game to play for them

Gief players on discord feel the move is a nerf with how useless the move is and the input motion makes for mistakes. It's a dp with punches. If they switched it to kicks then it wouldn't be so bad.

yeah I've been thinking that with kicks it would be a lot more reliable

don't think it is as bad as adding the swiss cheese to wolverine in umvc3 but I can see people doing it by mistake at some points

Guile, Ryu and maybe Chun is Nash only good match up.

Just because Nash has a boom doesn't mean he can zone like Batman or Deadshot in IJ2. Gief can jump

last time I checked Nash still was 6/4 in his favor vs Gief in that v-whatever site. I think they lost access to data so who knows if that still holds

e: 5.8 which ain't bad for Gief. I thought it was worse, a clear 6/4 or even 6.1. but yeah, v-league got banned.
 

MrCarter

Member
Yeah I don't think the game is changing either, which is why I find it strange that people are clamoring for new vtriggers and supers or crying about balance. At the end of the day, it will still be the same game. This is the way Capcom wanted SFV to be.

I'm not sure what Capcom's future plans with SFV (or even if they have one lol) are but I do think they will evolve the game's meta similar to how SF3/SF4 was over the course of its life. With SFV they don't have to change much in terms of balance and mechanics for some players needs so it will be interesting to see what they do. Having more CA and Triggers would certainly have more Variety too.

*shrug* people have been abusing OSs so long that they haven't stopped to think they are really stupid game design

sorry that the lack of them expose people who are left without handy tricks to force the game to play for them

Exactly. I'm not sure why some people are arrogantly acting as if they have won a CPT premier event around here and claim to know everything about balance when they don't, because if they did, they would see how awful OSs and mechanics were in the previous title IMO.
 

MindofKB

Member
With all of the recent news regarding KI, Marvel, and DBFZ, it would have been nice for Capcom to reveal something at CEO to grab a little bit of the spotlight back for SFV.
 

Skilletor

Member
Exactly. I'm not sure why some people are arrogantly acting as if they have won a CPT premier event around here and claim to know everything about balance when they don't, because if they did, they would see how awful OSs and mechanics were in the previous title IMO.

And yet when people that do place and win CPT events complain about balance, it's just because they're bitter/salty/want buffs when they lose.

That masterful "SF5 is actually the best game" OS. Can't be beaten.
 
Seeing Infiltration reach Master was pretty cool.

Just last week, he was in Diamond. He did that extra quickly.

Sometimes I think about going for the really high ranks, but it seems like too much of a grind. I still remember how content I was reaching A rank with Rose back in Ultra SF4. At one point, getting out of Ultra Gold felt impossible for me to overcome. That changed the more I kept playing, though.
 

Pompadour

Member
Exactly. I'm not sure why some people are arrogantly acting as if they have won a CPT premier event around here and claim to know everything about balance when they don't, because if they did, they would see how awful OSs and mechanics were in the previous title.

OSes are garbage game design that really do need to be stamped out. I can't abide a mechanic where one button combination covers multiple options with no downsides.

However, I'm pretty sure it would make a lot of pro players happy so I guess I wouldn't mind if some were back in, at least if it staunched some of the negativity. Honestly, Capcom wouldn't have to do much to appease the pro base: just add a bunch of nebulous mechanics that reduce "randomness" so they don't lose rounds off of nobodies in pools. That's literally the source of 90% of their complaints.

At the stage of the game SFV is in that's what they should do. They aren't going to get a huge new player influx so they might as well appease the FGC tastemakers to keep people buying DLC.

Of course, if they do plan a big SSFV style update they could fix the game in more incentive ways than just making it harder for intermediate players. Who knows if that'll happen, though.
 
Throughout S1 and up to S2.5 I have never seen or heard a complaint about Jump OS

but now it's gone and were back to guessing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
OS, for me, kinda break the rock/paper/scissors aspect of the game. Its like I threw out paper and you threw out rock, but you option selected scissors instead and won or you option selected paper went for the draw.

I think taking out the jump OS would be fine, but they shouldn't have done it so soon. With the little defensive options in the game, one OS is not a big deal. It should have been removed at the end of the season, while being replaced with some better defensive options.

I don't think OS shouldn't exist but i would prefer them to not be as prominent as they were in 4.
 

MrCarter

Member
And yet when people that do place and win CPT events complain about balance, it's just because they're bitter/salty/want buffs when they lose.

That masterful "SF5 is actually the best game" OS. Can't be beaten.

Yeah and I believe that they are far more qualified to do that than anyone else in this thread. At least they are far less condescending and have less of a inferiority complex for one. I just don't think you need to be a "high level" player to see issues that's all. "SF5 best game"? Hardly. No game is perfect.
 

KingBroly

Banned
I'm starting to think this game has a Destiny-like problem where the tool creation was so unwieldy it took ages for a glitch to be patched out, not to mention enemies got repurposed and expansions were considerably smaller than the leaked plans.

SFVI to use MTFrameworks? Capcom seems to have resurrected that engine.

It's possible, because some things that seem extremely simple (like adding P2 control on the Post-Match menu) still haven't been added. I usually go through Survival Easy when a new character comes out, but I just can't really find the time to care beyond the Weekly Missions. There's just nothing here.
 

Producer

Member
I generally dont like OSs but in sfv where theres pretty much no mechanics that help defense i had no problem with jump back os. Situations where its literally a 50/50 that leads to 50/50 its just a coin toss. If the game had less risky ways to avoid mixups then yeah jump back os could stay gone no problem. Otherwise fight bullshit with bullshit lol.
 

Rymuth

Member
It's possible, because some things that seem extremely simple (like adding P2 control on the Post-Match menu) still haven't been added. I usually go through Survival Easy when a new character comes out, but I just can't really find the time to care beyond the Weekly Missions. There's just nothing here.
This post from Nirolak provided an interesting read

Plausibly, but I think there's also an extent to which Capcom's developers are just not very good.

They've been hiring thousands of new college graduates to make their games since they decided to stop using any outsourcing firms, so they're pretty new at this.

Capcom talked about how Street Fighter V actually had way more staff than any of their previous fighting games, and that was pretty threadbare.

Mind, it also takes a lot more work to make modern games, and I'm sure compared to other modern games it's lower budget, but I don't think it necessarily costs less than Marvel vs. Capcom 3. It could plausibly cost quite a bit more.

So while we saw UE4 as the savior of the Japanese industry, I guess it can't work miracles when the hands using it are pretty inexperienced.
 
I generally dont like OSs but in sfv where theres pretty much no mechanics that help defense i had no problem with jump back os. Situations where its literally a 50/50 that leads to 50/50 its just a coin toss. If the game had less risky ways to avoid mixups then yeah jump back os could stay gone no problem. Otherwise fight bullshit with bullshit lol.

nah hold this 50/50 into 50/50 into 50/50 into stun then death. hold dat, get hype yall.

hold dat 2 specials, into full corner carry into throw loops into stun then death. hold dat. get hype yall

there's so many things wrong with this game lmao
 
Let's not get nostalgic for option selects. They are, and always have been, bullshit.
Yeah, 50/50 is stupid being so abundant, but the answer isn't dumb techniques that cover multiple situations, that's it own type of "brainless". Universal defensive options needs to be buffed, that's it.
 
OS is what makes whiff punish possible against Gief's c.jab. imagine how much worse the MU for Cammy if she can't buffer dp after a st.hp.
 
I'm an Option Select.

zItnnv.gif
 
An Option Select is just one series of inputs that can have multiple results depending on the situation, often because of the way cancel mechanics and hit-stop work. In the case of Cammy, you can input a special quickly after a cancelable normal; if the normal makes contacts with your opponent, the special comes out, otherwise it does not.
Street Fighter 4 had crazier option selects than 5. I'm pretty sure you could do a jump on a waking up opponent that would hit them with a normal if they didn't push anything, land and block if they tried to do a reversal, or chase them down with a special if they back dashed.
 
Street Fighter 4 had crazier option selects than 5. I'm pretty sure you could do a jump on a waking up opponent that would hit them with a normal if they didn't push anything, land and block if they tried to do a reversal, or chase them down with a special if they back dashed.
They're a thing in SF5 too.

I remember seeing a Necalli video where you could do a jumping.hp after a hard knockdown. If they did anything on wakeup that isn't invincible, they get hit. If they don't do anything, they have to block and you're HIGHLY advantageous. If they do an invincible reversal then you land in time to be able to block.

Though you're right, the OSes in SF4 got out of control.
 

MCD250

Member
what are you on about now
He's talking about the spiral arrow/DP buffer that a lot of Cammys do in the neutral. You stand outside of range of your opponent and do sHP while buffering one of those two special moves. If your opponent doesn't press anything, your sHP will whiff and because of its long recovery the special you buffered won't come out. If your opponent sticks out a button your sHP will hit them and then cancel into the special.
 

BlitzKeeg

Member
He's talking about the spiral arrow/DP buffer that a lot of Cammys do in the neutral. You stand outside of range of your opponent and do sHP while buffering one of those two special moves. If your opponent doesn't press anything, your sHP will whiff and because of its long recovery the special you buffered won't come out. If your opponent sticks out a button your sHP will hit them and then cancel into the special.

Ah so it's like Ryu's low forward into fireball buffer.

I still think he might be confusing buffers with OSs, even though they're kinda similar. That's why everyone is asking what he's on about.
 
He's talking about the spiral arrow/DP buffer that a lot of Cammys do in the neutral. You stand outside of range of your opponent and do sHP while buffering one of those two special moves. If your opponent doesn't press anything, your sHP will whiff and because of its long recovery the special you buffered won't come out. If your opponent sticks out a button your sHP will hit them and then cancel into the special.
And here I thought Cammy players were just godlike with reactions lol...
 

Shadoken

Member
Lol Cammy's St.HP. The only 6f Heavy normal in the game. Sometimes I feel even Uriens and Rogs CCs are fair compared to her normals.
 

Shadoken

Member
Why not take out DPs , It removes the rock/papers/scissors when people jump in. A well timed DP can beat a jump in, empty jump low,dive kick and cross ups......

oh wait. This discussion already happened at Capcom HQ.
 
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