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[Bob White]

I wish I could find that picture that was foating around before SFxT came out. Capcom released a pic showing the benefits of gems with various statements above multiple Ryu's that said shit like "Hard match up" "Anti Zoner". Someone shopped it so above every Ryu it just said "The opponent is better than me" lol.

I swear, f champ's list during that bornfree interview actually happened at capcom. "What happens if one player is way better at footies than the other? How can we help the weaker player?"

"Teach them the game" probably never occured to them. Nah, just make dashes the new jump in and CC buttons to yolo throw out.

 

[Producer]

He's talking about the spiral arrow/DP buffer that a lot of Cammys do in the neutral. You stand outside of range of your opponent and do sHP while buffering one of those two special moves. If your opponent doesn't press anything, your sHP will whiff and because of its long recovery the special you buffered won't come out. If your opponent sticks out a button your sHP will hit them and then cancel into the special.

Yeah i know that but thats not really an OS though. If you're not buffering in this game what r u doin lol

 

[Shadoken]

I mean yea , but a buffer is still an OS.

On wakeup against Dhalsim. I buffer Jaguar Kick with my Cr.LK as Nash , if he teleports the Lk whiffs and the catches him. If he blocks the blockstun stops the move from coming out.

Am doing the exact same thing the cammy player is doing , except am using a low recovery/Un-cancellable move to OS.
Yet for some reason OSs are a sin and buffers are "ok".

 

[lucebuce12]

I mean yea , but a buffer is still an OS.

On wakeup against Dhalsim. I buffer Jaguar Kick with my Cr.LK as Nash , if he teleports the Lk whiffs and the catches him. If he blocks the blockstun stops the move from coming out.

Am doing the exact same thing the cammy player is doing , except am using a low recovery/Un-cancellable move to OS.
Yet for some reason OSs are a sin and buffers are "ok".

*shrug* people have been abusing OSs so long that they haven't stopped to think they are really stupid game design

sorry that the lack of them expose people who are left without handy tricks to force the game to play for them

 

[ElFly]

buffers are necessary for combos

OSs are necessary for ???

if you don't get the difference, well

 

[CountBlack]

I wish I could find that picture that was foating around before SFxT came out. Capcom released a pic showing the benefits of gems with various statements above multiple Ryu's that said shit like "Hard match up" "Anti Zoner". Someone shopped it so above every Ryu it just said "The opponent is better than me" lol.

I swear, f champ's list during that bornfree interview actually happened at capcom. "What happens if one player is way better at footies than the other? How can we help the weaker player?"

"Teach them the game" probably never occured to them. Nah, just make dashes the new jump in and CC buttons to yolo throw out.

lmao

a lot of this shit is so ass backwards

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

I mean yea , but a buffer is still an OS.

On wakeup against Dhalsim. I buffer Jaguar Kick with my Cr.LK as Nash , if he teleports the Lk whiffs and the catches him. If he blocks the blockstun stops the move from coming out.

Am doing the exact same thing the cammy player is doing , except am using a low recovery/Un-cancellable move to OS.
Yet for some reason OSs are a sin and buffers are "ok".

Not really, a buffer is just the result of the combo system, you can't remove them without removing comboing into specials. They really aren't the same as something like "crouch tech".

 

[Shadoken]

How does that change what the Cammy player is doing? It is still an option select.

On hit she will cancel into a special and on whiff she will not. She is making use of the buffer system to create an OS thats puts her in a favorable situation.
I am doing the exact same thing with the same system , but in reverse. My special move comes out on whiff but it wont come out on hit or block.

Option selects can be created out of any mechanic or system. Crouch tech was an OS created out of input priority. Cr.LK was given higher priority than Throw , simple as that. People are still using option selects in SFV , but because the game has much lesser mechanics than SFIV it obviously has lesser variety.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Because it's a combo, you aren't selecting an option, you are simply inputting the entire combo.
Nothing will happen on trade, you can get whiff punished and you'll fuck yourself up the butt on block, you aren't selecting something that covers all options, you're literally just inputting the combo.

 

[ElFly]

you theoretically could have the game still "honor" the special input and have, say, Cammy, output the cannon drill even on whiff

I suspect the game would be a lot more annoying to play

 

[lucebuce12]

buffers are necessary for combos

OSs are necessary for ???

if you don't get the difference, well

OK, tell me if this is acceptable to you or not.

I remember seeing a Necalli video where you could do a jumping.hp after a hard knockdown. If they did anything on wakeup that isn't invincible, they get hit. If they don't do anything, they have to block and you're HIGHLY advantageous. If they do an invincible reversal then you land in time to be able to block.

It covers multiple situations, leading to an advantageous situation regardless of what they tried to do. If it IS acceptable, how is this MORE acceptable than jumpback-OS?

 

[LuciusAxelrod]

Because it's a combo, you aren't selecting an option, you are simply inputting the entire combo.
Nothing will happen on trade, you can get whiff punished and you'll fuck yourself up the butt on block, you aren't selecting something that covers all options, you're literally just inputting the combo.

Not being perfect in every single instance doesn't make something not an option select.

 

[ElFly]

in the example Necalli is only doing a single thing; he doesn't -this doesn't make sense but stick with me- either hit the jumping Fierce or do his dive kick depending on what the opponent does, the jumping fierce always comes out

that's ok I guess? maybe Capcom may want to look into why he can avoid the invincible reversal but dunno if you want to forbid that kind of exact timing. fixing it would require changing how landing from an attack works

jump-back OS ain't the same; it'd be if the outcome was always the same, probably jumping back + a light attack. but sometimes you do a throw tech...which ain't what's going on in the Necalli example

 

[Producer]

we want safe jumps gone now too? Lol

 

[TheSpoiler]

I just want better wakeup options.

Edit: Ed getting V-Trigger meter AFTER he pops his Trigger is some sick shit and definitely the kind of utility all characters need. https://twitter.com/AutoMattock/status/876818785541525504

 

[OmegaTreeFish]

Second day in a row i made a gief RQ against my Mika in a casual match. Made me laugh.

 

[Ucchedavāda]

we want safe jumps gone now too? Lol

No, no, no.

We want jumps to be gone.

 

[Sayad]

That "Should ARMS be shit on just as hard as SFV?" thread is funny, especially when you see this post:

Who said it isn't?

 

[MrCarter]

That "Should ARMS be shit on just as hard as SFV?" thread is funny, especially when you see this post:

It's not a bad score for either games at all. I guarantee if SFV had arcade mode that would have probably been higher but what's done is done.

 

[Shadoken]

So lets say Capcom continues their quest to remove option selects. And adjust the buffer system so that Your special move will ALWAYS come out. Now that Cammy player cant counter poke with a special buffer, or pre-emptively whiff a poke->Special to check unreactable dash ins.

Is it ok to just remove this because omg OSs are evil?

What am trying to say is , removing Option selects for the SAKE of Removing option selects is dumb as hell. The Jump back throw tech OS was not unbeatable , infact it wasnt even that OP and had many risks involved. They could have at the very least , left it in till Season 2 was done given how oppressive the characters are.

If an OS is abusable or OP then yes remove it or adjust it , if an OS is being removed because "oh no I cant do it properly" or "OS are evil" then thats not a good enough reason.

Because it's a combo, you aren't selecting an option, you are simply inputting the entire combo.
Nothing will happen on trade, you can get whiff punished and you'll fuck yourself up the butt on block, you aren't selecting something that covers all options, you're literally just inputting the combo.

Even the Jump back Throw tech OS was beatable. Heck as obnoxious as the SFIV throw OS was , that was hella punishable too. Removing the Throw OS in SFIV was as simple as changing the input priority on throw and Cr.LK. Yet Capcom didnt do it , its because that game had a lot of ways to beat it as well.

 

[Shadoken]

I got posted in that ARMS thread , shouldnt have fallen for the mixup oh well :/

It's not a bad score for either games at all. I guarantee if SFV had arcade mode that would have probably been higher but what's done is done.

Thinking about it now. The current game has so much more content , i totally forgot some basic stuff like Lobbies weren't there at launch.

If they reviewed a $40 Super SFV now , It would easily be at 85+. Just add in the goddamn arcade mode Capcom , just so its not a "oh lol no arcade mode yet scenario". Getting a good Metascore will prolly lead to way more revenue that it costs to write the 2 lines of code for Arcade mode.

 

[Sayad]

Because it's a combo, you aren't selecting an option, you are simply inputting the entire combo.
Nothing will happen on trade, you can get whiff punished and you'll fuck yourself up the butt on block, you aren't selecting something that covers all options, you're literally just inputting the combo.

Specials buffering during pokes is an OS, nothing comes out on whiff + combo on hit is a huge option select and would kill a lot of characters if the player had to commit to either options on reactions. Being able to blow it by just blocking doesn't change that it's an OS.

Even ridiculously strong OSes like Chun's S1 Throw tech/V-Reversal/EX SBK which Capcom broke their "no patch until the end of the season" rule to patch out would completely fuck Chun up if the other character just block or did a shimmy on Chun's wake up

 

[kirblar]

They want SFV to be about reads and intuition where you're actively playing the other player and their tendencies and it's very easy to read what's happening on screen. Removing OSes is part of that.

The biggest issues w/ SFV are w/ indvidual character design and balancing, where you have stuff like Balrog and V-Trigger Ibuki that is able to easily nearly 100-0 someone.

 

[Neoxon]

They want SFV to be about reads and intuition where you're actively playing the other player and their tendencies and it's very easy to read what's happening on screen. Removing OSes is part of that.

The biggest issues w/ SFV are w/ indvidual character design and balancing, where you have stuff like Balrog and V-Trigger Ibuki that is able to easily nearly 100-0 someone.

To be fair, Ibuki kinda has to work for her meal. Balrog gets free damage like food stamps.

 

[NastyBook]

To be fair I wouldn't show a teaser on that bootyhole internet

lmao

 

[Sayad]

Even the Jump back Throw tech OS was beatable. Heck as obnoxious as the SFIV throw OS was , that was hella punishable too. Removing the Throw OS in SFIV was as simple as changing the input priority on throw and Cr.LK. Yet Capcom didnt do it , its because that game had a lot of ways to beat it as well.

It was beatable, but it added a layer of guessing to the character on offense who just scored a knockdown, you can beat it with any delayed attack to catch them in the 4 frames jump start-up, doing that though opens you up for wake up 3 frames. If you look at most of the cast options on wake, that was a big no in Capcom's book.

 

[TheSpoiler]

For what it's worth, CPT Damon seeks out the pros and chats with them, from what I hear. Hope they put that feedback into play.

 

[lucebuce12]

For what it's worth, CPT Damon seeks out the pros and chats with them, from what I hear. Hope they put that feedback into play.

They clearly don't lol.

 

[Ucchedavāda]

All this talk about OSs make be go back and watch Mike Z's talk on FG design. Really great talk, and highly recommended for those who haven't seen it already:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpXganAM_qA

 

[TheSpoiler]

They clearly don't lol.

Maybe, maybe not. Giving people a patch in the middle of CPT was good on them, even if some of the more erroneous problems are kept afloat. IE, Balrog being stupid, lack of defensive options, etc. And I do like that they've done shit like giving more meter for using your v-skill. But it just feels like half steps. How about making all those skills useful? Or bringing back those defensive options? Fuck the CPT, add that new shit in now. Part of me thinks they are fielding questions to see if it's worth doing so.

Everything at Capcom moves at a glacial pace. Improvements are taking way too long to come.

 

[mbpm1]

or just get rid of SFV tbh

then people can no longer OS it as a reason to not play other games

 

[Lulubop]

Hey guys

When's Abigail?

 

[sixteen-bit]

Hey guys

When's Abigail?

maybe they'll show abigail tomorrow.

source: my ass

 

[lucebuce12]

maybe they'll show abigail tomorrow.

source: my ass

If TheSpoiler made this post, I'd even believe it.

 

[TheSpoiler]

I actually think he's getting delayed.

No hints and shit from the WSO people. Nothing on social media. I'm not expecting shit.

And I have no ass left to give.

 

[ElFly]

So lets say Capcom continues their quest to remove option selects. And adjust the buffer system so that Your special move will ALWAYS come out. Now that Cammy player cant counter poke with a special buffer, or pre-emptively whiff a poke->Special to check unreactable dash ins.

I said that it was theoretically possible to have buffers adjustable so moves come out even on whiff, as a way of humoring you, nothing else

in practice, everybody knows what "OS" and "Combos" mean and they are separate concepts, even if, technically, sure, cancel combos are a kind of option select (I do have to be precise here and say cancel combos, because other kind of combos are not option selects. See: links or target combos in sf5)

your whole idea of grouping combos along with OSs for the sake of your argument is just a pedantic technicality. everybody can see them as separate issues and nobody is buying your reductio ad absurdum that, hey, if Capcom is eliminating all OSs, maybe they should eliminate combos too for consistency's sake

everybody can tell the difference. this is not really an argument

 

[Zombegoast]

We should also take out negative edge while we're at it.

I would welcome this and the option to mash specials.

 

[Ryce]

Akuma, Kolin, and Ed each released approximately three weeks after their respective trailers dropped, so we're probably not getting Abigail in June.

 

[Ucchedavāda]

I would welcome this and the option to mash specials.

MKX had an option to disable negative edge, IIRC, and that was pretty handy. It would be a nice addition.

 

[mbpm1]

I actually think he's getting delayed.

No hints and shit from the WSO people. Nothing on social media. I'm not expecting shit.

And I have no ass left to give.

Damn, now you're giving up the ass?

 

[lucebuce12]

MKX had an option to disable negative edge, IIRC, and that was pretty handy. It would be a nice addition.

That game (as well as IJ2's) negative edge was a pretty aggressive implementation.

Inputs only occurred when you let GO of the button, not when you first pressed it. Not like SF where both pressing and letting go of a button counts as an input.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Damn, now you're giving up the ass?

Saving it for Super. Y'all can wait.

 

[Pompadour]

Getting matches every 5 seconds again and they're mostly lagless. Hopefully this keeps up.

 

[Shadoken]

in practice, everybody knows what "OS" and "Combos" mean and they are separate concepts, even if, technically, sure, cancel combos are a kind of option select (I do have to be precise here and say cancel combos, because other kind of combos are not option selects. See: links or target combos in sf5)

your whole idea of grouping combos along with OSs for the sake of your argument is just a pedantic technicality. everybody can see them as separate issues and nobody is buying your reductio ad absurdum that, hey, if Capcom is eliminating all OSs, maybe they should eliminate combos too for consistency's sake

everybody can tell the difference. this is not really an argument

What? Where did I say remove Combos ? you are clearly misunderstanding.

If you increase the input window of a special move , then if someone buffers a Special like Spiral Arrow in a Normal like say St.HP. The St.HP would whiff and the special would come out regardless of Hit,Block or WHIFF. Previously it would only come out on Block or Hit.
So now they cant just blindly buffer specials in pokes. They would have to actually hit-confirm. Otherwise their Unsafe Special move will come out.And this wont really affect combos in anyway. The only thing gone would be the OS. Every combo would remain intact.

I dont know how you say I am grouping combos with OS. Other posters here seem to understand what i meant as well.

Specials buffering during pokes is an OS, nothing comes out on whiff + combo on hit is a huge option select and would kill a lot of characters if the player had to commit to either options on reactions. Being able to blow it by just blocking doesn't change that it's an OS.

Edit: Regarding OSes, I think one area of confusion for some people might be how they look at a buffer. If I have super with Chun and I do qcfx2 in anticipation of a fireball but don't hit a kick til i see it, that's a buffer. A buffer can also be an OS though, such as cr mk xx fireball. In that case you do the full input for the special and it OSes whether or not the cr mk makes some form of contact. I can get the confusion since both are buffers, but only one of those two is an OS.

Exactly my point. I am referring to the latter. Where the person doesnt need to put in any thought as to whether it whiffs or hits , since the special wont come out if it whiffs. Hence it is an OS.

 

[Blueblur1]

Akuma, Kolin, and Ed each released approximately three weeks after their respective trailers dropped, so we're probably not getting Abigail in June.

Then he's probably delayed. They'll probably reveal him at SDCC.

 

[vulva]

Anyone want to play tonight? I feel like getting a grind session on in preperation for EVO so I want to run some longish sets.


Edit: Regarding OSes, I think one area of confusion for some people might be how they look at a buffer. If I have super with Chun and I do qcfx2 in anticipation of a fireball but don't hit a kick til i see it, that's a buffer. A buffer can also be an OS though, such as cr mk xx fireball. In that case you do the full input for the special and it OSes whether or not the cr mk makes some form of contact. I can get the confusion since both are buffers, but only one of those two is an OS.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

What? Where did I say remove Combos ? you are clearly misunderstanding.

If you increase the input window of a special move , then if someone buffers a Special like Spiral Arrow in a Normal like say St.HP. The St.HP would whiff and the special would come out regardless of Hit,Block or WHIFF. Previously it would only come out on Block or Hit.
So now they cant just blindly buffer specials in pokes. They would have to actually hit-confirm. Otherwise their Unsafe Special move will come out.And this wont really affect combos in anyway. The only thing gone would be the OS. Every combo would remain intact.

This is dumb, a lot of the buttons used to buffer have very large 20+ frame recovery windows, so whatever you press stays dialed in for that long, this completely KILLS whiff punishing, unless you are a master like kbrad, because unless you are on point, you can't risk whiffing yourself, because it would send you flying into a crush counter state.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

Getting matches every 5 seconds again and they're mostly lagless. Hopefully this keeps up.

Are you using port forwarding mumbo jumbo or just normal settings on your network?

Edit: casual or ranked?

I'm curious because my matchmaking hasn't been very impressive lately and I want to try port forwarding but also don't know shit about it.

 

[Shadoken]

This is dumb, a lot of the buttons used to buffer have very large 20+ frame recovery windows, so whatever you press stays dialed in for that long, this completely KILLS whiff punishing, unless you are a master like kbrad, because unless you are on point, you can't risk whiffing yourself, because it would send you flying into a crush counter state.

What?

How does it kill whiff punishing. Someone whiffs a normal , you walk up press C.MK->Special->Super->w/e.

The only thing it would kill is randomly whiff pokes/counterpokes with Specials buffered into them, you would have to actually hitconfirm those whiffed pokes now. I was referring to the input window for specials , which is already quite large.

And the point of the argument was that it is an OS , not about whether the solution was right or wrong. Vulva pretty clearly explained it as well.

And no my arguement is not "Remove OS , hence Remove combos". You can keep combos intact and still remove the Whiffing normals with buffered Specials OS.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

What?

How does it kill whiff punishing. Someone whiffs a normal , you walk up press C.MK->Special->Super->w/e.

The only thing it would kill is randomly whiff pokes/counterpokes with Specials buffered into them, you would have to actually hitconfirm those whiffed pokes now..

This is not universal, especially not when people have problems reacting to 22 frame overheads, let alone a 20 frame whiffed normal; this "solution" does nothing but make the game even worse.