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[TheSpoiler]

This is srsly undermining Bonchans efforts tho.

Literally nobody else is playing the character. You had multiple players doing well with S1 Chun,Nash,Mika..etc.
I feel like Bonchan is getting so many wins because Nash has slipped under the radar and nobody is able to get high level matches against a really good Nash. It is only now people are realizing that he is a threat. I wonder how he is going to perform once players focus on him.

People have had months of practice when Nash was popular. That's a little silly when the only thing they are facing is a nerfed yet more aggressive Nash.

And when you watch his matches, he's not doing shit that's making people confused. It's amazing spacing, ridiculous reactions (and conversions) and character knowledge. Nash isn't hiding any tricks or surprising people with anything they don't know about. He doesn't have that many new setups. Bonchan is just using him solidly.

It's a great deal of Bonchan putting in the effort and the work to make that character go far. But if a character is complete ass and isn't someone tricky like FANG, then maybe the character isn't complete ass like people think he is.

 

[Skilletor]

Yeah, is it that he's ass, or that he just requires a higher skill floor and doesn't have a comeback mechanic?

They took away ice skating Nash from S1, but S2 Nash is winning more events than S1 Chun did!

Bonchan is winning more.

 

[Shadoken]

People have had months of practice when Nash was popular. That's a little silly when the only thing they are facing is a nerfed yet more aggressive Nash.

And when you watch his matches, he's not doing shit that's making people confused. It's amazing spacing, ridiculous reactions (and conversions) and character knowledge. Nash isn't hiding any tricks or surprising people with anything they don't know about. He doesn't have that many new setups. Bonchan is just using him solidly.

It's a great deal of Bonchan putting in the effort and the work to make that character go far. But if a character is complete ass and isn't someone tricky like FANG, then maybe the character isn't complete ass like people think he is.

Thats exactly my point though , people are so used to Nash running away and moving around. That when he is suddenly just playing solid and Rushing you down it is catching people off guard.

You have to admit Bonchan is significantly different from Infiltration/Yukadon. Nobody really focussed much on Bonchan. And he has levelled up quite a bit since then.

Remember Bonchan still lost to NEmo in a FT10 and Nemo said he is the worst character in the game. And then again lost to KAzunoko's Cammy. I feel like Bonchans success is also quite dependent on the characters he is facing against.

He barely makes it out against certain characters. Against PR Rogs Balrog it was last game/last round. So many games Bonchan plays against are soo close and could go either way despite him clearly being the better player. There is a reason a player like Punk ( who just straight up bodies people ) looks up to him.

 

[Edzi]

lol I said fairly in comparison to past SF games, which I think should be praised. Also opinions, how do they work? Of course they still have some way to go but I don't think it will ever be "perfect" - which no fighting games are according to the highly volatile FGC.

I dunno, I genuinely think the balancing in this game is pretty terrible because while it isn't technically ruled by one or two busted characters, the gap between the top tiers and the rest is massive, feels unfair, and most importantly isn't fun to play against. Plus, it's really bad that the most busted characters are also the easiest/simplest to play. I don't think S2 balancing is praiseworthy at all, since they kinda doubled down on the worst parts of the game.

 

[Shadoken]

Bonchan is winning more.

Nah breh. Look at all these other S2 Nash players that are winning

*crickets*

 

[kirblar]

I mean, who's that other good-but-not-top-tier S1 player who uses Nash as a secondary?

Oh yeah, Punk.

 

[Skilletor]

I mean, who's that other good-but-not-top-tier S1 player who uses Nash as a secondary?

Oh yeah, Punk.

He uses him when he wants to fuck around because he knows he's better than the person he's playing. I haven't seen him use Nash at all in a top 8, or even in eLeauge.

 

[Lulubop]

Bonchan is winning more.

I mean pick a game, is any truly ass character winning a stacked major? In SF4? Has F.A.B everyone won something truly stacked that wasn't some team shit? Kuroda with Q?

 

[Ucchedavāda]

I mean, who's that other good-but-not-top-tier S1 player who uses Nash as a secondary?

Oh yeah, Punk.

How often does Punk pull out Nash? I don't recall seeing that much.

 

[Wallach]

Try blocking in the corner as Nash. No 3F jab,no Invinc reversal and one of the worst V reversals.

And in this game , eating shit in the corner is something you are going to be doing often. I cant think of any area where Chun is significantly weaker than Nash.

Also when the best Nash player ( And arguable the best player ) right now says hes ass , I would take his word for it.

yeah all the chun players say she is ass too, thing is one of them is winning and the other is folding laundry

 

[Shadoken]

I mean, who's that other good-but-not-top-tier S1 player who uses Nash as a secondary?

Oh yeah, Punk.

Punk only uses him in random pool play or against player he clearly knows he can beat with a handicap.

His Nash isnt anywhere near Bonchans level. And he rarely picks Nash in an unfavorable matchup ( Which are most of his matchups )

 

[Shadoken]

yeah all the chun players say she is ass too, thing is one of them is winning and the other is folding laundry

Yea its clearly Nash carrying Bonchan. Not the other way around.

SMH at the downplaying on his efforts by people here.

If you all would just WATCH the matches and look at the amount of times he outplays his opponents and guesses right on mixups Vs the times he doesnt. Its pretty clear who is the better player.

I mean when the current best player in the world looks up to him. You would think there is a reason for that.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Thats exactly my point though , people are so used to Nash running away and moving around. That when he is suddenly just playing solid and Rushing you down it is catching people off guard.

You have to admit Bonchan is significantly different from Infiltration/Yukadon. Nobody really focussed much on Bonchan. And he has levelled up quite a bit since then.

Remember Bonchan still lost to NEmo in a FT10 and Nemo said he is the worst character in the game. And then again lost to KAzunoko's Cammy. I feel like Bonchans success is also quite dependent on the characters he is facing against.

He barely makes it out against certain characters. Against PR Rogs Balrog it was last game/last round. So many games Bonchan plays against are soo close and could go either way despite him clearly being the better player. There is a reason a player like Punk ( who just straight up bodies people ) looks up to him.

Some of those matches were errors on his part, not the character. You mentioned the Rog set, but Bon had some awful drops a few times in that match. Sure, Rog gets to recover from that better than Nash can, but things got close because Bonchan messed up.

And pro players can be wrong. Most of them disagree on shit, and change their minds so constantly that I feel like they might be some of us sometimes. Strider said Ryu was the worst character. When Birdie won an event, people started claiming he was top ten. It varies, but that might be because SFV is just that way.

Of course Nash has problems. Not saying that in the least. And he has to work harder than most other characters, especially against his bad matchups (hey welcome to fighting games!). I just don't think he's completely useless like people claim he is, and there are results to show this.

 

[kirblar]

Yea its clearly Nash carrying Bonchan. Not the other way around.

SMH at the downplaying on his efforts by people here.

If you all would just WATCH the matches and look at the amount of times he outplays his opponents and guesses right on mixups Vs the times he doesnt. Its pretty clear who is the better player.

I mean when the current best player in the world looks up to him. You would think there is a reason for that.

Saying that "Nash isn't as ass as people say he is" isn't downplaying Bonchan!

It's just that Bonchan is having better results with a "worse" character - maybe the issue w/ players who think Nash was "bad" was how they were approaching him!

 

[MrCarter]

Bonchan Senpai

 

[Wallach]

Yea its clearly Nash carrying Bonchan. Not the other way around.

SMH at the downplaying on his efforts by people here.

If you all would just WATCH the matches and look at the amount of times he outplays his opponents and guesses right on mixups Vs the times he doesnt. Its pretty clear who is the better player.

I mean when the current best player in the world looks up to him. You would think there is a reason for that.

the downplaying is coming from people acting like bonchan is winning with fucking FANG

bonchan is godlike, but if he was playing a character as bad as you're claiming he'd be getting washed, this game doesn't have enough depth for player skill to push a character to the top consistently against the other best players in the world playing top tier characters

just ask xian

 

[Zombegoast]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";237956154]Not really, the only significant change is the MK scythe pushback. Forward dash change is gonna change some of his setups, but it's hard to say for better or worse yet. The rest of the changes are pretty minimal.[/QUOTE]

SonicSol did a test on that. His Medium Scythe is only slightly increased and nowhere near S1 level. And the new dash make him loose pressure after light scythe. Its nice that there reverting his ex genocide nerf but his AA option is still lacking and jump normals are the worst in the cast.

 

[Shadoken]

the downplaying is coming from people acting like bonchan is winning with fucking FANG

bonchan is godlike, but if he was playing a character as bad as you're claiming he'd be getting washed, this game doesn't have enough depth for player skill to push a character to the top consistently against the other best players in the world playing top tier characters

just ask xian

So you really think Nash and Fang are leagues apart in tier list. They are more or less the same tier. Maybe Nash is better and in one tier higher. Both characters have completely shit defense in a game where Offensive characters are bodying people.

By your logic.

Urien is seeing top 8 less than S1 Fang did last season. Not that Xian was carrying Fang last Season.

Also what does FANG have to do with anything , I thought your initial post about Chun being worse than Nash. You arent really saying points , you are pointing to results. And even if you look at Results. There are way more Chuns that place a lot more than Nash. I cant recall any Nash player in even Top 32 or Top 64 apart from Bonchan.

 

[Sayad]

Avoiding the oppression olympics, ass characters can still win in this game, their problems get exaggerated because of how easy it is to switch to the better ones.

 

[TheSpoiler]

C'mon dude. There's no way Nash is anywhere near as bad as FANG. Nash is low, but he's not in a tier where people aren't winning shit.

 

[Shadoken]

Matchups matter more than the character they are using. The fact that Bonchan beat Verloren who is using Cammy is extremely impressive. If Bonchan won by avoiding extremly bad matchups I would agree.

C'mon dude. There's no way Nash is anywhere near as bad as FANG. Nash is low, but he's not in a tier where people aren't winning shit.

How many characters would you put between Nash and Fang? I cant think of any apart from Ryu and Alex.

But I will agree on one thing. Nash is a very solid character that has some tools that are srsly gimped. Fang on the other hand , is a genuinely bad character on a fundamental level. He will never be good. Only broken bad or broken OP.

 

[kirblar]

How many characters would you put between Nash and Fang? I cant think of any apart from Ryu and Alex.

But I will agree on one thing. Nash is a very solid character that has some tools that are srsly gimped. Fang on the other hand , is a genuinely bad character on a fundamental level. He will never be good. Only broken bad or broken OP.

Bottom 5: Juri, Alex, Chun, Ryu, Fang?

 

[TheSpoiler]

Nash
Chun
------------
Ryu
Alex
Juri
FANG

Those above that line are in a tier where they can win events more than once and not primarily due to lack of character knowledge imo. And you right about FANG - he's either going to be ass or broken, and I guess Capcom wants him one way.

I do think people dropping Nash is partly due to Infli's video. When he came out and said that, people just didn't want to play a different way. Even people who'd never be at that level dropped him off at the corner. On the flipside of things, once he started winning, I'm seeing more Nash boyz in general. There was even one at the event where Bonchan won his second (or maybe first?) event that bodied Pookngo and Xyzzy in a 3v3. Can't remember his name but that dude was slick.

 

[Shadoken]

What puts Juri on that same level? I think she is above them. She has high damage ( With VT) , good pressure and realtively decent reversal options?

She is also getting a better DP after S2.1.

 

[Sayad]

Nash
Chun
------------
Ryu
Alex
Juri
FANG

Those above that line are in a tier where they can win events more than once and not primarily due to lack of character knowledge imo. And you right about FANG - he's either going to be ass or broken, and I guess Capcom wants him one way.

Juri should probably be with Chun and Nash, like the two she has good neutral buttons but suffer mainly from low damage, her defense options(AAs, reversal, v-reversal) though is much better than both of them.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Fair points. I just always see her looped in with the losers because of how much she works for damage.

 

[MCD250]

I think saying Charlie is a character who has good tools that are in a gimped state (at least currently) as opposed to him being a straight up BAD character is probably right.

That said, I would for sure say that Bonchan's victories right now are mostly down to his own skill as a player rather than other folks' unfamiliarity with the character (which was the modest argument that Bonchan himself put forward when talking about his current hot streak). Because shit, man, watching Bonchan play is a sight to behold. It's like the dude has perfect awareness of every potential situation he can find himself in and how to best respond to it. I don't think I've ever seen anyone play like that except for maybe Punk.

 

[Shadoken]

Apart from those 6 , everyone else gets a decent amount of Representation. So i'd say the balance isnt that bad. Its just the game balance , but I dont know if Capcom will every address that issue.

 

[Kashiwaba]

People are not giving Juri to he credit she deserves i think she is way stronger than people think, but just that no pro player is using her maximum potential she is like Rashid good character but not much results when it comes to professional players.

 

[Wallach]

Nash
Chun
------------
Ryu
Alex
Juri
FANG

I don't know if Juri deserves to be below that line, or Chun deserves to be above that line.

I guess to understand where I'm coming from on this, consider how nearly unanimously people will put Ryu into this category. Ryu also has a 1-bar reversal (and frankly a far better one than Chun), and I would argue more consistent conversions for damage than Chun does as well. So why would I be quick to elevate Chun out of the ass tier category?

Chun to me feels like she has slid into this dumpster for the similar reasons to FANG, which is that she too frequently converts for fuck all damage in the majority of situations where she converts at all. Nash has far superior horizontal space control than Chun, I think he converts more off counterhits in neutral than her during that control, I think he converts for more damage in cases where opponents try to jump to get out of that control, more consistently converts meter into damage (particularly in anti-air and CA contexts).

I think these are also proving to be more relevant factors in the shaping of high level match-ups than whether a character has a 1-bar reversal, even with how oppressive corner situations are in this game right now. Ryu is about as clear of an example of that as I can provide. In this context Chun's 1-bar reversal may be the worst of all of these options, because even in the cases where any of them would have escaped the situation they were used for, she again converts for fucking no damage, and doesn't have the damage back in the neutral to make up for the meter loss.

She either needs more of her horizontal space control back, more consistent conversions off counterhits in the neutral, or more consistent ways to convert meter usage into higher damage. Until then I think she occupies a very similar space as Ryu in terms of relevance.

 

[ShinMaruku]

Nash,Juri and perhaps Vega are just characters the right person and effort maxiizing the characters would have them win a tourney. They are not complete trash. I find it somewhat comical that because you must put in work a character is trash.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Yeah, I guess that does make sense in part for Chun. Looking at matches with her, it's really hard for her to get anything meaningful off of much of her gameplan.

And in terms of balance, there's also a few sections of it. A game can be technically balanced but not feel balanced.

The former means, at least to me anyway, is if the majority of the cast can be played at a high level and still win. SFV does this. In fact, a lot of modern fighters do this.

But does it feel balanced? That's going to depend on the person. If you play a lower tier character and have to put in more work, you'll feel less likely to think that. On the flipside, a person who selects a high tier might think the game is fine. And then you have various skill levels, whether or not their losses came from themselves or the system inherently, and so on. While stacking that next to actual game balance doesn't really prove anything, it's important.

You can tell me all day that something is balanced but if I'm getting knocked around, regardless of whether or not its' true, I'm gonna get mad or dislike that particular thing. SFV's lack of defensive options exasperate this. Matches can be steamrolly, and without a way of resestting the neutral, it feels like going on the aggressive is harder if you aren't playing a character that excels in all functions like Necalli. That's why it's important to have that sort of shit in a game because it prevents that feeling.

Gundam is a busted game in so many areas. Like half the cast isn't even good (well, when you have like 80 plus characters, what do you expect?), but because you have methods of defense in terms of movement, it doesn't really feel like it all the time. Some characters even have options that function primarily as defense.

For all the guff that S2 gets, it made more characters viable, but it didn't fix the problem of feeling fair. This is, of course, outside busted stuff like Rog's damage and Laura's everything. But taking away defensive options isn't going to make people who are on the receiving end or playing weaker characters happy.

 

[mbpm1]

All this nash talk makes me consider trying him

one of the few characters i haven't given a spin even once

 

[Shadoken]

Chun to me feels like she has slid into this dumpster for the similar reasons to FANG, which is that she too frequently converts for fuck all damage in the majority of situations where she converts at all. Nash has far superior horizontal space control than Chun, I think he converts more off counterhits in neutral than her during that control, I think he converts for more damage in cases where opponents try to jump to get out of that control, more consistently converts meter into damage (particularly in anti-air and CA contexts). .

While Nash has better special moves in the horizontal space. His movement is severely gimped with a non existent walkspeed , So that kinda balances it out. The dashes being much slower dont really help either. M Sonic Scythe was great in S1 because it some flexibility in use because of the pushback. But they gimped it a bit too much that its only safe at the absolute max range and its hard to keep repositioning yourself to that spot.

I dont know about Damage either , they both seem similar. Nash HK scythe just does 110dmg. If you get a CH you can maybe combo into MP TA which does 120dmg. So in most cases both characters get around the same damage.

Nash,Juri and perhaps Vega are just characters the right person and effort maxiizing the characters would have them win a tourney. They are not complete trash. I find it somewhat comical that because you must put in work a character is trash.

Lmao what? You need to put in work with any character.

This has nothing to do with effort. Characters of lower tier have worse Risk/Reward ratios that higher tier characters.

 

[ColonialHawk]

Anyone wanna play?

 

[Skilletor]

Anyone wanna play?

I'll play. Invite me:

Skillzilla81_PS4

 

[Sayad]

Should we expect anything?! lol
Probably there for Red Bull kumite.

 

[Shadoken]

Nah. I remember he was there last year too.

I expect the next announcement at E3.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Should we expect anything?! lol
Probably there for Red Bull kumite.

He mentioned Kumite in the tweet

Spoiler

nah, secret Abel reveal

 

[Sayad]

Are you guys saying we should expect a trailer?! 😱

 

[MCD250]

Are you guys saying we should expect a trailer?! 😱

Finally we'll get to see Ed.

 

[ColonialHawk]

I'll play. Invite me:

Skillzilla81_PS4

GG's dude.

 

[Skilletor]

GG's dude.

GGs!

You've got a nice Alex. Last round made some good reads on me trying to jump away. lol

 

[MCD250]

Seen this making the rounds on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/Ninieru/status/867384537352896512

 

[Csr]

It is so funny to me that the exact same thing that happened to season 1 Nash that got him butchered is happening again and people aren't realizing it.

The thing is that to get around nash's neutral game you need to do your homework more so than against other characters neutral but once you do he is not a threat.
Chun and some of the other low tiers are a lot more straightforward even though they are better at some areas like defense (and worse at others), some of them also don't have a top player putting in the effort.

Once people started figuring him out and after the lag reduction in season 1 he dropped like a rock in tiers and if we look at Bonchan's matchs individually we can see a lot of match up unfamiliarity.

You can't account for match up unfamiliarity or choking or one player outperforming everyone else, which Bonchan did in those 3 tournaments, in the tiers.

 

[mbpm1]

tfw you play for so long and your mental energy is gone but you don't realize it until you stop being able to anti-air

feelsbadman

at least i practiced in learning to stop certain dashes before that. fuck you ryu dash, get jabbed.

 

[Rickenslacker]

Even in season 1 Nash was a super honest character that defied the 3f normal and invincible move template that the rest of the upper tier characters had, literally the only change I would have given him was changing the visual of his dash animation to be apparent earlier, and he was pretty butchered in season 2 despite that. Bonchan has been doing amazing stuff with him.

 

[SolarPowered]

Yeah, I guess that does make sense in part for Chun. Looking at matches with her, it's really hard for her to get anything meaningful off of much of her gameplan.

And in terms of balance, there's also a few sections of it. A game can be technically balanced but not feel balanced.

The former means, at least to me anyway, is if the majority of the cast can be played at a high level and still win. SFV does this. In fact, a lot of modern fighters do this.

But does it feel balanced? That's going to depend on the person. If you play a lower tier character and have to put in more work, you'll feel less likely to think that. On the flipside, a person who selects a high tier might think the game is fine. And then you have various skill levels, whether or not their losses came from themselves or the system inherently, and so on. While stacking that next to actual game balance doesn't really prove anything, it's important.

You can tell me all day that something is balanced but if I'm getting knocked around, regardless of whether or not its' true, I'm gonna get mad or dislike that particular thing. SFV's lack of defensive options exasperate this. Matches can be steamrolly, and without a way of resestting the neutral, it feels like going on the aggressive is harder if you aren't playing a character that excels in all functions like Necalli. That's why it's important to have that sort of shit in a game because it prevents that feeling.

Gundam is a busted game in so many areas. Like half the cast isn't even good (well, when you have like 80 plus characters, what do you expect?), but because you have methods of defense in terms of movement, it doesn't really feel like it all the time. Some characters even have options that function primarily as defense.

For all the guff that S2 gets, it made more characters viable, but it didn't fix the problem of feeling fair. This is, of course, outside busted stuff like Rog's damage and Laura's everything. But taking away defensive options isn't going to make people who are on the receiving end or playing weaker characters happy.

You nailed it. Similar thoughts have been fermenting in my brain for months now and I've made similar posts describing my thoughts, but this reaches right to the heart of it all.

 

[Kashiwaba]

It is so funny to me that the exact same thing that happened to season 1 Nash that got him butchered is happening again and people aren't realizing it.

The thing is that to get around nash's neutral game you need to do your homework more so than against other characters neutral but once you do he is not a threat.
Chun and some of the other low tiers are a lot more straightforward even though they are better at some areas like defense (and worse at others), some of them also don't have a top player putting in the effort.

Once people started figuring him out and after the lag reduction in season 1 he dropped like a rock in tiers and if we look at Bonchan's matchs individually we can see a lot of match up unfamiliarity.

You can't account for match up unfamiliarity or choking or one player outperforming everyone else, which Bonchan did in those 3 tournaments, in the tiers.

This applies to all characters which is why Du is losing tournaments now, if you don't change your game and try different approaches​ other players will figure you out and you will start losing.

 

[ScraftyDevil]

I hate fighting Zangief as Mika. Between his V-Skill and grab-invincible EX SPD it feels like I have no way to start or continue pressure since regardless of what I do he has a get-out-of-jail-free card. It's infuriating.