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[Jawmuncher]

I've already made my stance on the port matter. Really the only thing that'll convince me to get it would be new characters that interest me.

Not going out of my way to play on a new system with not much new added when playing on the WiiU is just fine. If people can play melee on the GameCube even now, I can hold off on a new smash until a substantial update hits.

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if that was a result of Project M, which has received some exposure.

As for Smash 4, while it is a great game, it's far from perfect. And its gameplay is obviously not great enough to justify building upon it for 10+ year without a major overhaul of the game's mechanics. And I bring up tournament statistics since it's a more accurate show of how well-liked the gameplay is.

Either way, we have no reason to believe right now that we'll get any major additional content besides maybe the Ice Climbers (if they were as far along in development as implied).

Brawl sold a million between now and last year. Doubt that was all PM when the mod was getting old and expiring. You're really underestimating the casual market. I've seen older adults go into the shop, look at a Wii U, and then buy Wii Minis because it was cheaper. The casual market is the single biggest audience for the series.

What makes tournament-statistics a better showcase of how-liked the gameplay is than overall sales? The number of people who like the game but don't play in tournaments is far higher.

I think it's possible to expect the worst and hope for the best, but the key in that is not ruling out any possibility, and being able to have an individual opinion on whatever the possible outcome is. If the game comes out and is a straight port, I won't be surprised, but I think it'd be a silly decision.

 

[Neoxon]

Brawl sold a million between now and last year. Doubt that was all PM when the mod was getting old and expiring. You're really underestimating the casual market. I've seen older adults go into the shop, look at a Wii U, and then buy Wii Minis because it was cheaper. The casual market is the single biggest audience for the series.

What makes tournament-statistics a better showcase of how-liked the gameplay is than overall sales? The number of people who like the game but don't play in tournaments is far higher.

I think it's possible to expect the worst and hope for the best, but the key in that is not ruling out any possibility, and being able to have an individual opinion on whatever the possible outcome is. If the game comes out and is a straight port, I won't be surprised, but I think it'd be a silly decision.

Because casuals drop the game quicker than tournament players, who push the metagame to its limits. And in the tournament scene, the good games last while the bad ones fall off the wayside. And while Smash 4 has the attendance, its viewership isn't exactly up there (as stated earlier).

As for the Smash port selling, it doesn't have to sell NX Consoles or NX Handhelds. Assuming that it's a straight port, it'd be more of a way to pad out the NX Platform line-up & bring the community over to the new platform (see USFIV for the PS4). Plus, who's to say that the port has to be $60? Now don't get me wrong, I'd love for more characters to get added. But recent events have taught me not to get my hopes up.

 

[jnWake]

Because casuals drop the game quicker than tournament players, who push the metagame to its limits. And in the tournament scene, the good games last while the bad ones fall off the wayside. And while Smash 4 has the attendance, its viewership isn't exactly up there (as stated earlier).

So players push the metagame and Smash 4 has players, but the gameplay is bad because it has less viewers? Come on, you're contradicting yourself in the same sentence.

It's fine to prefer Melee and I'd agree it has more depth and technicality but that doesn't mean Smash 4 doesn't have good gameplay that can last a while. Tier lists are still changing drastically day by day.

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

Because casuals drop the game quicker than tournament players, who push the metagame to its limits. And in the tournament scene, the good games last while the bad ones fall off the wayside. And while Smash 4 has the attendance, its viewership isn't exactly up there (as stated earlier).

As for the Smash port selling, it doesn't have to sell NX Consoles or NX Handhelds. Assuming that it's a straight port, it'd be more of a way to pad out the NX Platform line-up & bring the community over to the new platform (see USFIV for the PS4). Plus, who's to say that the port has to be $60?

There's more casuals than there are tournament players. And it's not a black-or-white thing. There are lots of game enthusiasts like myself who just have no interest in tournaments. Tekken 3 sold 8 million - not sure what the tournament scene is like for that, but surely those people have at least an idea of if the game was good or not. It just seems silly to discard people's opinions because they don't play in tournaments, when naturally tournament-goers have a very different outlook on the game. When it comes to sales, they're a tiny niche. ll of the most successful fighting games in the past few years are games that were appealing to a variety of gamers beyond tournaments (see: Smash Bros, Mortal Kombat X, Dragon Ball Xenoverse, the Naruto Storm series). Alienating everyone but a tiny niche has never resulted in major financial success for a fighting game. Street Fighter's sales declined when it started pushing away the casual market and doubled-down on the hardcore... twice. Once in the 90s, and once now. That's a case study for you, and I'm saying this as a big-time SF fan.

As for the port - let me put it this way. Knowing Nintendo, is it something they could end up doing? Yeah, probably. Is it the best-case scenario we want them doing? Nah. We all have the expectation that it could probably be nothing, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't dream. And who exactly would be the market for a straight port? Hardcore Nintendo fans already have it. The 3DS has a large casual market that the game got great success from. A straight port is simply not an appealing product.

Even if they drop the game, Nintnedo got the money already and people will continue to buy the next Smash, they are just like FIFA game. New characters is all they need to sell and a little bit of hype trailers.

Exactly.

 

[Neoxon]

So players push the metagame and Smash 4 has players, but the gameplay is bad because it has less viewers? Come on, you're contradicting yourself in the same sentence.

It's fine to prefer Melee and I'd agree it has more depth and technicality but that doesn't mean Smash 4 doesn't have good gameplay that can last a while. Tier lists are still changing drastically day by day.

I did state that Smash 4 was a great game in of itself, but it's the fact that it's a bit too close to Brawl in gameplay that's holding it back. As for viewership, it's more of a matter of maintaining interest, which ties back to The Triforce of eSports (The Players, The Viewers, & The Tournament Organizers). If there's no viewers, then the TOs have less of a reason to push the tournament they're hosting as hard, which means there's fewer majors for players to go to. I say this as a tournament organizer (albeit for locals).

 

[DecoReturns]

Because casuals drop the game quicker than tournament players, who push the metagame to its limits. And in the tournament scene, the good games last while the bad ones fall off the wayside. And while Smash 4 has the attendance, its viewership isn't exactly up there (as stated earlier).

As for the Smash port selling, it doesn't have to sell NX Consoles or NX Handhelds. Assuming that it's a straight port, it'd be more of a way to pad out the NX Platform line-up & bring the community over to the new platform (see USFIV for the PS4). Plus, who's to say that the port has to be $60? Now don't get me wrong, I'd love for more characters to get added. But recent events have taught me not to get my hopes up.

Even if they drop the game, Nintnedo got the money already and people will continue to buy the next Smash, they are just like FIFA game. New characters is all they need to sell and a little bit of hype trailers.

 

[Neoxon]

Even if they drop the game, Nintnedo got the money already and people will continue to buy the next Smash, they are just like FIFA game. New characters is all they need to sell and a little bit of hype trailers.

Yes, the next Smash game later down the road. But they likely won't stick around like competitive players would (be it just attending local casuals or going to international majors).

 

[Draxal]

If I were Nintendo, I'd try to transition Smash more into a service game, so they'll consistenly update the frame of Smash 4 for NX during the lifetime of the NX.

 

[Neoxon]

If I were Nintendo, I'd try to transition Smash more into a service game, so they'll consistenly update the frame of Smash 4 for NX during the lifetime of the NX.

It'd be best to fix some of the major flaws of Smash 4's gameplay before they go that route. While yes, Street Fighter V is lacking in modes, at least its gameplay is top-notch to the point where building upon it for 5+ years isn't much of a problem. Smash 4's gameplay is great, sure, but there's a ton of room for improvement. If anything, the Smash 4 port should only serve as a means to buy time for the actual Smash 5, where it can be made with long-term support in mind.

 

[TheDinoman]

It'd be best to fix some of the major flaws of Smash 4's gameplay before they go that route.

Gameplay changes (ie appealing towards Melee folks) ain't gonna happen if Sakurai's still in charge.

Hell, even if he wasn't, I doubt anything would change considering how Nintendo rolls thse days.

 

[Neoxon]

Gameplay changes (ie appealing towards Melee folks) ain't gonna happen if Sakurai's still in charge.

Hell, even if he wasn't, I doubt anything would change considering how Nintendo rolls thse days.

Which is why I'd prefer Nintendo to save any "as a service" plans for the Smash series for Smash 5.

 

[TheDinoman]

Which is why I'd prefer Nintendo to save any "as a service" plans for the Smash series for Smash 5.

Like I said, I doubt they'd really cater to the competitive crowd that much either.

 

[chaosblade]

Haven't played this in forever.....I guess Zelda is still at the bottom of the trash tier?

It's tradition.

If you want to play Smash with a good Zelda, you have to play PM.

If I were Nintendo, I'd try to transition Smash more into a service game, so they'll consistenly update the frame of Smash 4 for NX during the lifetime of the NX.

I wouldn't be surprised if they went this route for the next Smash game that isn't a Smash 4 port. Have the barebones base game preinstalled on the system, and roll out a new DLC content pack each year.

 

[Professor Beef]

It's tradition.

If you want to play Smash with a good Zelda, you have to play PM.

but then you'd be playing a bad game

not sure if I wanna make that trade

 

[chaosblade]

but then you'd be playing a bad game

not sure if I wanna make that trade

If PM is a bad game what does that make the other Smash games.

Because it's the best one

 

[PK Gaming]

Haven't played this in forever.....I guess Zelda is still at the bottom of the trash tier?

That's the general consensus, but popular belief only goes so far. Everyone thought that Megaman was underwhelming until Sc4tt started tearing up tournaments with him, and you're seeing more and more niche characters making waves in tournaments(thank you Sheik nerfs). After her buffs, I think her current ranking is absolutely debatable.

Purpleguy makes the character look good, lmao.

 

[Tripon]

If PM is a bad game what does that make the other Smash games.

Because it's the best one

That's not Smash 64.

 

[Puruzi]

Smash 4 doesn't need to be fixed.

 

[NamikazeBurst]

The only gameplay flaw Smash 4 has is footstools not having a dedicated button.

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

Smash 4 doesn't need to be fixed.

I think there are a few QOL improvements that could be made (e.g. hazard toggle), but yeah, overall, it'd be hard to change any of the fundamentals of the gameplay system without making it a completely new game.

It'd be for relatively little gain too since the vast majority of players, reviewers, etc. are totally cool with the game as it is now.

 

[Triforce141]

Haven't played this in forever.....I guess Zelda is still at the bottom of the trash tier?

No, that would be Jigglypuff now, Zelda's still bottom 5.

 

[Zebei]

Every game has room for improvement.

Smash is no different.

A gameplay flaw Smash 4 has is footstools

FTFY

 

[Azerare]

I think there are a few QOL improvements that could be made (e.g. hazard toggle), but yeah, overall, it'd be hard to change any of the fundamentals of the gameplay system without making it a completely new game.

It'd be for relatively little gain too since the vast majority of players, reviewers, etc. are totally cool with the game as it is now.

Man, still upset that a hazard toggle was never put in. Some of these stages would be great if it weren't for the hazards.

 

[Puruzi]

The only gameplay flaw Smash 4 has is footstools not having a dedicated button.

Agreed.

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

The only thing Sm4sh needs is more fun stages.

Fountain of Dreams when

 

[NamikazeBurst]

Every game has room for improvement.

Smash is no different.


FTFY

Footstools would be fine if you actually had to think about doing them. It would be another edge guard option.

I say this as a Yoshi main that automatically dies to a footstool.

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

Man, still upset that a hazard toggle was never put in. Some of these stages would be great if it weren't for the hazards.

It's so weird too, because 8-Player versions of some stages (Pyrosphere most notably) don't have hazards. So it seems like such a no-brainer to implement.

Granted it may be tricky for some stages where it becomes difficult to tell what is and isn't a hazard (most notably the moving ones like Skyloft, Port Town: Aero Dive, and especially Orbital Gate). But even then, for the latter an easy fix would be have the whole fight take place on the Great Fox at the beginning. And at the very least, stage bosses like Yellow Devil or Metal Face should be disabled. Like the moving platforms on Wily Castle aren't bad IMO, it's just the Yellow Devil which is a bummer.

 

[Professor Beef]

If PM is a bad game what does that make the other Smash games.

Because it's the best one

It's the worst one I've played, at least. But then again I haven't played Brawl Minus, so *shrug*

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

PM is a poor man's Melee, just saying. Y'all can have fun with your janky combos, but we all know why a 10-year-old game is still being played to this day.



:^)

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

Don't kill me for saying this, but is there even any reason to play PM over the other games nowadays? I never followed it that closely but the impression I got was that once SSB4 came out, PM was damaged really badly and never really recovered. Mewtwo and Roy being added in just seemed to be the nail in its coffin. I just don't see what it has to offer instead of actually playing Melee or SSB4. In the Brawl days I could get it, but nowadays it's more like an awkward middle ground between the two.

Spoiler

Aside from Snake, Wolf, Squirtle, and Ivysaur.

 

[Triforce141]

Don't kill me for saying this, but is there even any reason to play PM over the other games nowadays? I never followed it that closely but the impression I got was that once SSB4 came out, PM was damaged really badly and never really recovered. Mewtwo and Roy being added in just seemed to be the nail in its coffin.

Spoiler

Aside from Snake, Wolf, Squirtle, and Ivysaur.

Stamina Type 3, the #1 most wanted thing on my list of Smash Wii U mods

 

[Anth0ny]

Don't kill me for saying this, but is there even any reason to play PM over the other games nowadays? I never followed it that closely but the impression I got was that once SSB4 came out, PM was damaged really badly and never really recovered. Mewtwo and Roy being added in just seemed to be the nail in its coffin. I just don't see what it has to offer instead of actually playing Melee or SSB4. In the Brawl days I could get it, but nowadays it's more like an awkward middle ground between the two.

Spoiler

Aside from Snake, Wolf, Squirtle, and Ivysaur.

pm still has snake, best stage roster of any smash, almost the best gameplay of any smash, best alt costumes, tons of fan service...

 

[DecoReturns]

Don't kill me for saying this, but is there even any reason to play PM over the other games nowadays? I never followed it that closely but the impression I got was that once SSB4 came out, PM was damaged really badly and never really recovered. Mewtwo and Roy being added in just seemed to be the nail in its coffin. I just don't see what it has to offer instead of actually playing Melee or SSB4. In the Brawl days I could get it, but nowadays it's more like an awkward middle ground between the two.

Spoiler

Aside from Snake, Wolf, Squirtle, and Ivysaur.

Like any other game, if you like it you'll play it.

Melee/Brawl is way better so I never bother to play it much.

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

Stamina Type 3, the #1 most wanted thing on my list of Smash Wii U mods

pm still has snake, best stage roster of any smash, almost the best gameplay of any smash, best alt costumes, tons of fan service...

Forgot about the modes. I never really dabbled into those during the short time I toyed around with PM out of curiosity.

Personally I felt a lot of the alts looked kinda awkward, but fair point. I never really gave the stages much credit since I like alternating between the fun ones and the straightforward ones, but it's not a bad mashup I guess.

 

[chaosblade]

Don't kill me for saying this, but is there even any reason to play PM over the other games nowadays? I never followed it that closely but the impression I got was that once SSB4 came out, PM was damaged really badly and never really recovered. Mewtwo and Roy being added in just seemed to be the nail in its coffin. I just don't see what it has to offer instead of actually playing Melee or SSB4. In the Brawl days I could get it, but nowadays it's more like an awkward middle ground between the two.

Spoiler

Aside from Snake, Wolf, Squirtle, and Ivysaur.

Because it's still like the Melee successor we never got. Smash 4 didn't hurt PM that much, Nintendo strongarming community leaders and services behind the scenes did.

 

[Professor Beef]

pm still has snake, best stage roster of any smash, almost the best gameplay of any smash, best alt costumes, tons of fan service...

lol

let's hope the people who made them didn't quit their day jobs

Because it's still like the Melee successor we never got. Smash 4 didn't hurt PM that much, Nintendo strongarming community leaders and services behind the scenes did.

let's not pretend that it wasn't coming or deserved, though

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

Because it's still like the Melee successor we never got. Smash 4 didn't hurt PM that much, Nintendo strongarming community leaders and services behind the scenes did.

But that wouldn't have happened if it weren't for SSB4 existing :V

I dunno. Maybe it's just because I never followed it too closely but PM to me felt like it had kind of an identity crisis. It feels like it started as simply being "a competitive version of Brawl" and then overtime it kinda ballooned into partly being that, but them also wanting to give it its own identity and basically be a full-on fanmade Smash game. Honestly with that in mind, it's inevitable that it wouldn't have lasted forever. As a stopgap game or replacement for Brawl I think it was cool for what it was, but I feel like the creators kinda flew too close to the sun in a few respects if that makes sense. It really pushed the boundaries of mod and fangame. I think that's interesting, but also a risky proposition when you're working with a pre-existing IP instead of repurposing it into your own (like when Quake became Team Fortress, or when Warcraft became DOTA).

 

[Zebei]

I wonder when/if we are going to hear from Wavedash Games.


As far as I know they haven't said anything since PM went RIP

 

[chaosblade]

I wonder when/if we are going to hear from Wavedash Games.


As far as I know they haven't said anything since PM went RIP

I'm not even sure what that was supposed to be. Apparently it was entirely unrelated to PM aside from a few dev team members acting as advisors. I wouldn't be surprised if that was supposed to be something like a Smash focused sponsor that fell through, or something else other than a developer for a Smash-like game.

Edit: Actually it does look like they are developing a game. Their twitter is active now.

 

[MrSaturn99]

Played Project M once and didn't care for it. I knew the character changes were going to throw me off but one thing that struck me was how moves associated with great visual and/or strong impact (Snake's Grenade Launcher/Lucas's PK Fire/Wario's Shoulder Barge) were discarded in favor of moves that didn't look or feel half as powerful (Knife/New PK Freeze/a stubby-ass kick). I know they had new directions for some characters but even but themselves they didn't click for me.

Granted, it was an incomplete version (I know Olimar and Samus weren't in it), but I doubt anything up to the final one would've changed my mind. Original's fine by me, even if I've moved on to 4.

 

[Daouzin]

Don't know why people are so salty about PM in this thread. It's easily the best Smash game besides Melee. It has also had a larger following than people seem to give it credit to. I run into people fairly often that never played Melee, don't care about Smash 4 and love PM.

Usually they were Brawl players that just checked it out one day because of the competitive scene, then they never went back to Vanilla Brawl.

Now a days certain regions still play it as their top Smash game. New Mexico is one of those regions. Arizona was another strong PM region until Smash 4 came out. Then PM players that joined from Brawl split into two groups, those that play Smash 4 now and those that play Melee. So the PM scene here seems to be dying.

Unfortunately the ban from Twitch is what's causing PM's death. Not the quality of the game. The game is great.

I get some people didn't appreciate the fans stepping in where Brawl failed, but to claim that Brawl is any where close to PM's level is silly. To put it in perspective the PM scene is still bigger than 64 even though PM doesn't really get any major events.

Competitively I imagine people will still be playing PM for another few years, where as Brawl is basically completely extinct.

Also, PM gave Charizard Seismic Toss before Nintendo did it in Smash 4. The first time I saw that, it was sick. I also appreciate all the little touches they did with the characters like Samus's ability to have a Fire blaster or an Ice blaster and giving her two different A button movesets.

 

[MrSaturn99]

I'm not really seeing any "salt" over PM aside from Beef's antics.

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

Don't know why people are so salty about PM in this thread. It's easily the best Smash game besides Melee. It has also had a larger following than people seem to give it credit to. I run into people fairly often that never played Melee, don't care about Smash 4 and love PM.

Usually they were Brawl players that just checked it out one day because of the competitive scene, then they never went back to Vanilla Brawl.

Now a days certain regions still play it as their top Smash game. New Mexico is one of those regions. Arizona was another strong PM region until Smash 4 came out. Then PM players that joined from Brawl split into two groups, those that play Smash 4 now and those that play Melee. So the PM scene here seems to be dying.

Unfortunately the ban from Twitch is what's causing PM's death. Not the quality of the game. The game is great.

I get some people didn't appreciate the fans stepping in where Brawl failed, but to claim that Brawl is any where close to PM's level is silly. To put it in perspective the PM scene is still bigger than 64 even though PM doesn't really get any major events.

Competitively I imagine people will still be playing PM for another few years, where as Brawl is basically completely extinct.

Also, PM gave Charizard Seismic Toss before Nintendo did it in Smash 4. The first time I saw that, it was sick. I also appreciate all the little touches they did with the characters like Samus's ability to have a Fire blaster or an Ice blaster and giving her two different A button movesets.

Is there anyone salty? I guess I'm biased but I thought that while I'm not crazy for it personally, I don't hate the mod and I think I've been fairly level with what I've been saying.

It is worth noting that a competitive outlook on PM (the perspective you seem to be coming from) may cause things to be shaped differently. PM was designed to appeal to competitive players. So it's good that it's working, but it makes sense that people who don't come from that perspective will think differently of it.

 

[Professor Beef]

I'm not really seeing any "salt" over PM aside from Beef's antics.

If it makes you feel better to assume I'm salty, then ok

 

[MrSaturn99]

If it makes you feel better to assume I'm salty, then ok

I meant that with no offense. Sorry.

 

[Oidisco]

Honestly Smash 4 is as close as it gets to being a perfect Smash game for me right now. There are some things I'd change like Rage and removing Sonic from the game, but otherwise it's fantastic.

 

[Daouzin]

Is there anyone salty? I guess I'm biased but I thought that while I'm not crazy for it personally, I don't hate the mod and I think I've been fairly level with what I've been saying.

It is worth noting that a competitive outlook on PM (the perspective you seem to be coming from) may cause things to be shaped differently. PM was designed to appeal to competitive players. So it's good that it's working, but it makes sense that people who don't come from that perspective will think differently of it.

Totally get it, but to think only "competitive players," like it, is false. Their seems to be a bunch of casual Brawl players in my personal experience that play it as their main Smash game for partys/drinking nights..

Regardless though. PM, is part of the Smash family as much as people may not like it. So many players got their start with PM. Just think PM will always be a relevant title and foot note on the series history.

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

Totally get it, but to think only "competitive players," like it, is false. Their seems to be a bunch of casual Brawl players in my personal experience that play it as their main Smash game for partys/drinking nights..

Regardless though. PM, is part of the Smash family as much as people may not like it. So many players got their start with PM. Just think PM will always be a relevant title and foot note on the series history.

Sorry. I wasn't to imply that only competitive players do. I've heard other people I know talk about it, but they are Nintendo fans in general - not tournament-level, but definitely enthusiasts.

I wasn't trying to discredit PM with my original post or anything, I was just asking from an honest place because I've been out of the loop and haven't heard people talk about it much since the creators discontinued it.

 

[Jawmuncher]

Tripping needs to be brought back as a optional toggle.

I'm dead serious