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Super Smash Bros. for 3DS |OT| It's out in Japan

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S

Spinosaurus

Member
I can definitely see heavy characters doing a lot better in this meta game, especially if they also got the KO power to kill early.

I'm not really sure what to think of that, honestly. Best to wait and see I suppose.
 
D

DaBoss

Member
lol, Zero just took advantage of a Jigglypuff VI-ing left (D1 wants to call it KBI), and did the throw to the left instead of the right which caused a KO.
 
E

emb

Member
Revven said:
Yeah... this definitely points to the heavyweights likely being very beneficial of this change -- they both get to survive longer and KO earlier, there's no drawback for them in this situation really. At least, early on here.

I'm interested in how things will evolve, though regardless. There is a reason to be concerned, however, with how large of a difference in % that comparison shows. I don't recall DI having that much of an impact on survival, it was generally much smaller in %. Like, the difference of getting KO'd at 135% and 139%. Not 150% and then 180% or 190%...

But who knows maybe I'm jumping the gun just like I had my concerns with custom moves being unlocked... oh wait, my concerns for that are legitimized now >_>
Click to expand...
Nah man just give it more time! The game has only been out one week!!! Everything always turns out not to be a problem when the meta gets developed!

Yeah, I'm not really liking that DI seems more potent, in a game where kills already took forever. Stale moves still have a huge impact, air dodge can be done over and over, and blast zones are huge.
 
R

Revven

Member
StayDead said:
Actually, instinctively poo pooing everything initially in the Smash community is why we can't have nice things. This is effectively doing the same thing as SDI, it just extends survivability from survivng from being smashed off side.

It all leads to off stage chases.
Click to expand...

Not when some KO moves are going to be sending into the ceiling or... the top corners of the stage. You can't chase people who survive a strong Usmash..

Mega Man's Utilt being an example of that already. This affects those moves that don't send off-stage and is actually going to affect characters like Fox, Sheik, and anyone else who has strong vertical KO moves. Not everyone is going to have a strong horizontal KO move that sends off-stage for them to give chase off-stage (of course, Fox and Sheik do have those kinds of moves but their vertical finishers are better, it'll depend on the situation obviously though).

I'd consider a 30% to 40% difference in damage pretty significant, way more significant than what SDI or regular DI allowed you to survive in Melee, Brawl, or 64 (the last of which barely had any DI but you know what I mean).
 
E

emb

Member
Revven said:
Yeah... this definitely points to the heavyweights likely being very beneficial of this change -- they both get to survive longer and KO earlier, there's no drawback for them in this situation really. At least, early on here.

I'm interested in how things will evolve, though regardless. There is a reason to be concerned, however, with how large of a difference in % that comparison shows. I don't recall DI having that much of an impact on survival, it was generally much smaller in %. Like, the difference of getting KO'd at 135% and 139%. Not 150% and then 180% or 190%...

But who knows maybe I'm jumping the gun just like I had my concerns with custom moves being unlocked... oh wait, my concerns for that are legitimized now >_>
Click to expand...

DaBoss said:
lol, Zero just took advantage of a Jigglypuff VI-ing left (D1 wants to call it KBI), and did the throw to the left instead of the right which caused a KO.
Click to expand...
Am I right to assume that VI is only factored in when you are launched and knockback is assigned, and thus can't be changed while you're flying away?
 
E

El Pescado

Member
johnbone said:
Please don't be so condescending, this is a serious discovery that warrants testing!

Attitudes like your's are why we can't have nice things
Click to expand...

Because coming in here and going "Uh oh" and "This could go sour fast" is so helpful? Because last night when I said "I've always held against the direction I'm being Smashed since SSB64" someone replied that I've been playing wrong all these years?

It's a mechanic that was purposely put into the game and is even in the pre-match tips, but SmashBoards like like "Well we need to come up with our own term for it."

The game is great. I've put more hours into it this last week than I have any other game this year. I'm having fun with it, but it feels like other people are just waiting for that one thing so they can be like "OH! You play Smash Brothers on 3DS... I see..."
 
T

Timeaisis

Member
emb said:
Am I right to assume that VI is only factored in when you are launched and knockback is assigned, and thus can't be changed while you're flying away?
Click to expand...

Hmm...that would be interesting for left/right VI mechanics. Depending on what frame the game reads the input, you could potentially trick your opponent into VI-ing the wrong way.
 
P

PKrockin

Member
El Pescado said:
Because last night when I said "I've always held against the direction I'm being Smashed since SSB64" someone replied that I've been playing wrong all these years?
Click to expand...
The tone of that post wasn't meant to be dismissive or elitist in any way as far as I can tell. There's no need to be so sensitive.
 
C

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
"VI"ing seems like it would be fine in theory, unless the implementation is too extreme. The Jigglypuff example doesn't seem too extreme. It also seems to be me like it would be better if it actually read angles like DI instead of just cardinal directions.
 
M

Moonlight

Banned
Is it really so difficult to understand that all the fuss over mechanics is because people are really desperate not to go back to Melee or PM
 
D

DaBoss

Member
El Pescado said:
Because coming in here and going "Uh oh" and "This could go sour fast" is so helpful? Because last night when I said "I've always held against the direction I'm being Smashed since SSB64" someone replied that I've been playing wrong all these years?

It's a mechanic that was purposely put into the game and is even in the pre-match tips, but SmashBoards like like "Well we need to come up with our own term for it."
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure I made a post telling someone they've been doing it wrong yesterday, but I did not mean it in an offensive/elitist way at all. Sorry I said that. I only meant it in a playful way.

The game is actually referring to another mechanic where you can move your position in multi-hit moves.
PreyingShark said:
Wasn't the jiggly at an insanely high % anyways?
Click to expand...
Yea, but the throw wouldn't have normally killed, but because of bad VI, it did. Zero was doing back throws a lot so the person playing Puff thought Zero would go for another back throw.
 
E

emb

Member
El Pescado said:
Because coming in here and going "Uh oh" and "This could go sour fast" is so helpful? Because last night when I said "I've always held against the direction I'm being Smashed since SSB64" someone replied that I've been playing wrong all these years?
Click to expand...
You do have a point on the "I've always held against the direction I'm being Smashed since SSB64" part. The new mechanic is more intuitive, and intuitive is good.

Just seems like the net effect stronger DI is going to have on the game won't really be a positive one. We have to wait and see on that one, but I'm not all that optimistic.
 
R

ratcliffja

Member
PaperFlame said:
I been playing the demo constantly and it feels like the level 9 Ai's are getting better..
Click to expand...

I don't get that feeling at all, actually. As Mega Man, the only one that consistently gives me trouble now is Pikachu. I beat Villager like 90% of the time now, Link about 75% of the time, Pikachu maybe 50%... and Mario like 10%. He's just crazy difficult for me for whatever reason. He's fast and strong with good priority and the ability to reflect EVERYTHING. My usual strategy of cheesing top spin and well-timed dashes and side smashes doesn't work too well with him.
 
E

ErrorMacro

Member
IMO, VI is only problematic if it has a true impact in low percent combos.

Otherwise, it just means stuff lives longer....which pretty much everybody noticed is true in this game.

Did anyone try testing how much VI impacts comboing in low/mid percents?
 
B

Beelzebufo

Banned
That Zero example actually sounds pretty cool. Is the timing really forgiving for vectoring? If it's not you could totally set up little traps like that.
 
E

El Pescado

Member
Moonlight said:
Is it really so difficult to understand that all the fuss over mechanics is because people are really desperate not to go back to Melee or PM
Click to expand...

I feel like SmashBoards wants SSB4 to fail just so they can stick with Melee/Project M.

0wo3Csv.jpg


On the left we see a typical person enjoying a game of Sm4sh. To the right, a member of SmashBoards.
 
T

theprodigy

Member
KuroPyonyo said:
I have been reading through the earlier vectoring arguments, I think I understand now why the relationship between competetiv and casual is so sour.
Please allow me some sweeping generalization:
On the one side you have competetiv types that jump the gun and only expect the worst case scenario without any thorough data available
on the other hand you have casuals that are either uneducated and can't add anything to silence or the ones that brush of any concerns as "not like melee" whining.
And of course you dont call out bullshit if said person is on your "side".

Come on people you can do better than that, this isn't healthy.
Click to expand...

Because someone didn't get the memo.
 
J

johnbone

Member
El Pescado said:
Because coming in here and going "Uh oh" and "This could go sour fast" is so helpful? Because last night when I said "I've always held against the direction I'm being Smashed since SSB64" someone replied that I've been playing wrong all these years?

It's a mechanic that was purposely put into the game and is even in the pre-match tips, but SmashBoards like like "Well we need to come up with our own term for it."

The game is great. I've put more hours into it this last week than I have any other game this year. I'm having fun with it, but it feels like other people are just waiting for that one thing so they can be like "OH! You play Smash Brothers on 3DS... I see..."
Click to expand...

At least I wasn't being condescending toward an entire community of people.
Both side are equally at fault here: The competitive side for overreacting to everything and the casual side for not allowing any criticisms of the new mechanics.

I think that these problems can be resolved through level-headed discussion, not generalization and shit-slinging.

FYI, I love smash 4, and I rarely, if ever, play melee.
 
beanman25

beanman25

Member
georly said:
For glory 1v1?

I'm at .9
(10 matches played lol)
and so i'm afraid to play more and ruin my win ratio!
Click to expand...

Yup! Getting better with DHD and Bowser.. I think at least.

Luckily I don't really get mad losing at this game because matches are over so quickly. Just have to move on.
 
J

johnbone

Member
Moonlight said:
Is it really so difficult to understand that all the fuss over mechanics is because people are really desperate not to go back to Melee or PM
Click to expand...

I think this is the hidden truth in all of this.
People really want smash 4 to be the next big thing, and so are a tad paranoid when a new mechanic is discovered.
 
E

emb

Member
El Pescado said:
I feel like SmashBoards wants SSB4 to fail just so they can stick with Melee/Project M.

0wo3Csv.jpg


On the left we see a typical person enjoying a game of Sm4sh. To the right, a member of SmashBoards.
Click to expand...
No one really wants the new Smash game to fail. People are just going to (naturally) be upset if the new game isn't very fun for them on a deeper level. They hate because they love, and want to love more. None of them would be obsessing over all these little details if they weren't hoping for the game to be great.

Edit: Oh, and this old image seems obligatory to go with the one you posted (which is pretty nice, btw. I like it.):

3139_609100660294_6310295_34905328_8382872_n.jpg
 
G

georly

Member
beanman25 said:
Yup! Getting better with DHD and Bowser.. I think at least.

Luckily I don't really get mad losing at this game because matches are over so quickly. Just have to move on.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I just need to suck it up and be willing to lose for once. :) I tend to play 'for fun' for practice, but uh... items dictate 90% of those battles.
 
E

El Pescado

Member
johnbone said:
Both side are equally at fault here: The competitive side for overreacting to everything and the casual side for not allowing any criticisms of the new mechanics.

I think that these problems can be resolved through level-headed discussion, not generalization and shit-slinging.

FYI, I love smash 4, and I rarely, if ever, play melee.
Click to expand...

I agree. There's nothing wrong with criticizing the new mechanics, but I see a whole lot more "This will ruin the game" than anything else.

Poltergust said:
You're completely off on that. Everyone wants the exact opposite.
Click to expand...

I hope you're right.
 
G

Glucose

Neo Member
Has any testing been done to determine if 'smashing' or flicking an input vs holding an input has any effect on VI? Seems like it would fit in with the overall control scheme.
 
T

Timeaisis

Member
El Pescado said:
I feel like SmashBoards wants SSB4 to fail just so they can stick with Melee/Project M.

0wo3Csv.jpg


On the left we see a typical person enjoying a game of Sm4sh. To the right, a member of SmashBoards.
Click to expand...

Nah, it's the opposite. Smash 4 is pretty much guaranteed to be an awesome game at this point, the question is will it be a long-lasting competitive game like Melee was. Smash Boards is a lot of competitive types that have no interest in sticking with a 10-year old fighting game as their go-to. Surely, they'll all play the shit out of Smash 4 regardless, but they want it to have some competitive legs so they can keep with the scene.

I was there when Brawl came out, and everyone was desperate for a Melee successor, and sorely disappointed when it didn't live up the the competitiveness of Melee. It was still a great freaking game though, don't get me wrong. There we still people that played it competitively a lot (like ZeRo) and got quite good, but then you have the old guard of melee players that wanted something similar to the fast-past nature of that, which it didn't live up to.

Now, people that love Melee are desperate to have a game that lives up to that ideal of competitive Smash. Will it deliver? Maybe, but your going to find people that complain no matter what -- even if it was perfect. Everyone wants Smash 4 to succeed, and most want it to be the next competitive Smash game. I know I do, even though I mostly play for fun, I dabbled in the Melee scene back in the day so I'm interested in how it evolves.

And thus, we wait, with bated breath whether Smash 4 will be the second coming of competitive fighting games or just a really freaking good fighting game with some issues.
 
B

Beelzebufo

Banned
El Pescado said:
I feel like SmashBoards wants SSB4 to fail just so they can stick with Melee/Project M.

0wo3Csv.jpg


On the left we see a typical person enjoying a game of Sm4sh. To the right, a member of SmashBoards.
Click to expand...
This is really paranoid and makes it seem like you don't know what you're talking about. :p
 
G

georly

Member
Poltergust said:
I am right. There is absolutely no legitimate reason for people to want a game (in the series that they participate in competitions for, no less) to fail. You're being too paranoid.
Click to expand...

People are irrational beings. To say that there is no reason ANYONE would want it to fail is being presumptuous. I think most people don't, but there are always some people... who just want to watch the world burn.
 
D

DaBoss

Member
Well some people are overly pessimistic and would react strongly to anything big or small. And those loud people are usually the ones that people would spot easily.
 
P

Poltergust

Member
georly said:
People are irrational beings. To say that there is no reason ANYONE would want it to fail is being presumptuous. I think most people don't, but there are always some people... who just want to watch the world burn.
Click to expand...

The people I'm referring to are the ones that actually go out and compete, myself included. You can take my word on this: not a single person in that group wants the game to fail competitively.
 
C

Chezzymann

Member
It seems like almost all of the major changes so far (Blast zones, vector influence, etc.) are made to make the aerial off stage gameplay more of a focus. So, at least from my understanding, this doesn't make the game any less competitive, but instead just changes the focus of the gameplay.

(Of course, I'm just reading the threads y'all link and don't know much about smash bros.' meta outside of that)
 
T

theprodigy

Member
georly said:
People are irrational beings. To say that there is no reason ANYONE would want it to fail is being presumptuous. I think most people don't, but there are always some people... who just want to watch the world burn.
Click to expand...

This is like replying to someone saying nobody in the US wants a Vita with "not true, it still sold something!"
 
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