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Super Smash Bros. for 3DS |OT| It's out in Japan
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
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Starwolf_UK
Member
Daft question. I know stamina is relegated to smash run bonus stage but how does Rage work there, if it does at all, or is it just an unknown due to being a pain to test.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Now people are angry about rage?
Error404SwagNotFound
Member
Irony aside, I must've missed it. What's Rage?
It sounds like you take issue with the video.
I'm really not understanding where you're getting this vibe. It's a straightforward factual explanation of how the new mechanic works.
Who's angry about rage?
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
This is something I was thinking about earlier. They already have the FD modes for each stage, adding platforms would be a fairly low effort task to do and test.
And better than just every stage having a straight battlefield version, I think each stage having at least slightly unique platform layouts that feature platforms in different amounts, positions, or heights. So you might have a reverse-battlefield for one. One might have a stairstep layout. One might have just a single higher platform. And so forth. There are really a ton of things you could do with 1-4 platforms just spacing them out differently, and this is something that could benefit players at all levels. Things like spacing and height differences would play a big part in the metagame and stage counterpicking (I mean, see the difference in Battlefield and Dreamland 64, they work better for different characters) while casual fans would simply get a whole lot more options for stages, even if the theme of the stage is based on existing ones.
It's a term given to a mechanic that seemingly increases knockback on your attacks depending on how much damage you've taken.
Competitive players (generally) don't like items (in competitive play at least).
I can't speak for everyone but the reason I like items (in casual play at least) is because you never know which item is gonna appear where. Are you gonna have to dash towards an item before someone else gets it? If an item appears next to an opponent should you try and get it or contextually prepare for whatever it is? How should you use and combine the things that just came out of that box? etc.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, the rage thing looks fine to me. I still think VI looks kind of extreme though. If the difference was about as pronounced as rage it would be perfectly fine.
GameFAQs is losing their shit over it. It's fun to watch.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I guess I'm just annoyed at its presentation. Even the poster wasn't too neutral about it.
And I'm already seeing posters annoyed that they can't combo into it.
When your % is higher your attacks have knockback.
You know what I find funny? The rage thing only has a video so far (at least as far as I know), and all of their demonstrations are smash attacks, not regular attacks.
Probably because smash attacks have the most easy-to-spot difference? And something like Mario's Usmash is easy to make comparisons to itself compared to other moves that have more horizontal and less than 90 degree angles?
Even in the How to Play videos they use Mario's Usmash to show the difference in how high you get sent flying based on your percent. It's just easy to see the difference with a smash attack like that.
I don't get it, what's funny?
Error404SwagNotFound
Member
So everyone's Lucario? And Lucario is SUPER Lucario? I can dig it.
Askherserenity
Member
Eh. People are always going to find something to bitch and moan about. Doesn't stop the game from being good. But yeah, I can already see the game getting tons of backlash for these mechanics. Guess it'll be another Brawl to some people.
PadWarrior
Member
As long as you enjoy the game that's all that matters. Who cares what others say.
Then you just have to play going under the assumption that all opponents will VI perfectly, and then that's what the game IS. If they don't VI perfectly, you consider it a lucky kill.
To me, it's no differently than playing an opponent who blocks/dodges perfectly either. Good VI just becomes something you're supposed to do, and you get lucky if your opponent forgets or performs it incorrectly. Sure, it makes the stock last a little longer, but the game already has longer stocks than ever before, so it's not that big of a deal to me.
I'll grant you that the competitive community will likely never accept items regardless of how they are implemented. The Smash community is unique from other fighting game communities in that they took a game they liked and used the settings found within the game to create a tournament standard. Basically all other fighting games follow an "arcade standard" so they are stuck playing with what comes out-of-the-box. Citing that competitive Smash had to be invented by the fans is a common way the FGC used to diminish Smash as a fighting game.
Not that there's anything wrong with "changing" a game to make it competitive. We certainly wouldn't have Project M if that were the case.
All I'm seeing is concern and worry for the game's match length based on these mechanics being discovered. If there's people bitching and moaning it's probably the people who wouldn't or aren't going to be playing the game seriously anyway. There's all kinds of people posting in those Smashboards threads, it's not just competitive players in there it's also spectators of the current games (aka people who don't go to tournaments) and some of the more casual people who don't even understand it and are just being sheep because "oh if this seems negative, I guess it is".
JediLink
Member
Hey, well all games have problems. Some games have more problems than others. Some people have a higher tolerance for those problems than others. But that doesn't make the problems invalid, or not worth talking about.
In terms of Knockback Influence, the big problem I see with it is that it just prolongs rounds. While it is a problem competitively it really doesn't seem like it's going to turn the game into another Brawl, where the problem was that it had a very defensive rock-paper-scissors approach to it. SSB4 seems a lot more offense-based in comparison with the way it condones edgeguarding and gimping, as well as the added focus on combos. It's probably going to be a lot more exciting to watch but the amount of payoff isn't enough to mitigate the length problems that might arise. The game is kind of at a tipping point between 2 stock / 3 stock setups.
SenorArdilla
Member
Everyone is about to unleash their rage.
PadWarrior
Member
I'd just say to wait and let it all shake out. It's silly to start making brash comments that assume hivemind mentality from "the competitive scene". I mean, on this very page alone, we have people freaking out about the fact that VI makes it harder to kill people and people freaking out about the fact that the "rage effect" makes people easier to kill? I understand that the two things are exclusive, with VI affecting combo ability and rage effect affecting the pace of a match, but the point is that they're two mechanics we're just now learning about, despite the game being out for a little bit.
Hell, I'd even suggest waiting for the Wii U version to start making any declarative statements about "what the competitive community is going to do", given that I think that having access to the GC controller is going to give people a few more options and a bit better control over characters.
Until then, just take in the findings, don't jump to conclusions, and remember that the "competitive community" isn't one big group that has all the same opinions. Just look to the custom move debate to see what I mean there.
Hell, I'd even suggest waiting for the Wii U version to start making any declarative statements about "what the competitive community is going to do", given that I think that having access to the GC controller is going to give people a few more options and a bit better control over characters.
Until then, just take in the findings, don't jump to conclusions, and remember that the "competitive community" isn't one big group that has all the same opinions. Just look to the custom move debate to see what I mean there.
Mysterious
Banned
Why does Germany get this before the rest of Europe and North America??? wtf??
Finally got to try the demo. It looks so awesome in person. No wonder the 3DS is pushed to the limit, it really shows.
And a big exasperated sigh at my muscle memory because this button layout does not feel right at all when I'm used to Smashing on a GameCube controller. And since it's the demo, no button rebinding for me. Any tips to unlearning this?
And a big exasperated sigh at my muscle memory because this button layout does not feel right at all when I'm used to Smashing on a GameCube controller. And since it's the demo, no button rebinding for me. Any tips to unlearning this?
PadWarrior
Member
Something about a holiday I believe
This post is good.
Holy Order Sol
Member
Or the whole thing about PM's stage list. TKBreezy probably doesn't want to ever deal with that kind of shit again. XD
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Because neutral attacks can be used for damage building with very little knockback influence.
Not75Drops
Member
Hugh confirmed for DLC.
kuroneko0509
Member
holiday on the release date
Is it October 3 yet? 
Regarding VI, I'm definitely not as invested in this game as some of you are. I do enjoy it a lot and have played the demo way more than I have played full retail games on my 3DS, but I'm neither a professional nor someone that resents "pro" players for wanting gameplay decisions to go according to what they believe would make the game competitively better. I just like having fun, knowing how to play a game well, and am easy to please.
I am interested in the subject though, because despite not being a pro, I plan to spend the majority of my time playing online and I like being good at a game, of course. Initially, I have my doubts about how much it's going to affect me, though. As someone said above, we didn't know about VI before yesterday, and I don't think that has impacted the way I play the game - I usually press the opposite direction when being thrown in order to recover and get on the ground again ASAP, and do the opposite when trying to escape combos, usually combining it with the jump button still, I can understand the main points against it; I like combos, and the consistent high percentage kills is easily what has felt more "off" about this game since I got to play it.
Still though, I expect not to be too affected because I don't expect the majority of my opponents online to even know what VI is, and since I've gotten more interested in the competitive side of things in the last couple of months, I hope that, maybe not through a specific mechanic, but through a competitor's own skills, aggressive (or "more active") play gets rewarded. You can't exactly play against the mechanics, but Smash isn't deterministic enough to reduce the outcome of a match to a matchup formula or a set of gameplay mechanics, much like any other fighting or non-random multiplayer game.
I guess being more of an observer in this issue, and finding both claims of disappointment from those who dislike the new mechanics, and those that accuse them back of thinking 4 is "another Brawl" to be painfully reductionist, hurried and detracting from the discussion, makes it seem to me like this might be a bit of a false dilemma, and in the end the community will find those shades of gray where competitive play will settle. There is nothing wrong with people not liking a game though, and as much as I'm sure this will end up being my GotY I don't have any intention of defending it.
Regarding VI, I'm definitely not as invested in this game as some of you are. I do enjoy it a lot and have played the demo way more than I have played full retail games on my 3DS, but I'm neither a professional nor someone that resents "pro" players for wanting gameplay decisions to go according to what they believe would make the game competitively better. I just like having fun, knowing how to play a game well, and am easy to please.
I am interested in the subject though, because despite not being a pro, I plan to spend the majority of my time playing online and I like being good at a game, of course. Initially, I have my doubts about how much it's going to affect me, though. As someone said above, we didn't know about VI before yesterday, and I don't think that has impacted the way I play the game - I usually press the opposite direction when being thrown in order to recover and get on the ground again ASAP, and do the opposite when trying to escape combos, usually combining it with the jump button
still, I can understand the main points against it; I like combos, and the consistent high percentage kills is easily what has felt more "off" about this game since I got to play it.Still though, I expect not to be too affected because I don't expect the majority of my opponents online to even know what VI is, and since I've gotten more interested in the competitive side of things in the last couple of months, I hope that, maybe not through a specific mechanic, but through a competitor's own skills, aggressive (or "more active") play gets rewarded. You can't exactly play against the mechanics, but Smash isn't deterministic enough to reduce the outcome of a match to a matchup formula or a set of gameplay mechanics, much like any other fighting or non-random multiplayer game.
I guess being more of an observer in this issue, and finding both claims of disappointment from those who dislike the new mechanics, and those that accuse them back of thinking 4 is "another Brawl" to be painfully reductionist, hurried and detracting from the discussion, makes it seem to me like this might be a bit of a false dilemma, and in the end the community will find those shades of gray where competitive play will settle. There is nothing wrong with people not liking a game though, and as much as I'm sure this will end up being my GotY I don't have any intention of defending it.
MannyToons
Member
You can't forget that there are competitive players for Smash Bros.. Of course people won't be OK with it if it's going to elongate matches and make them slower overall. Just because you're fine with it no matter what doesn't make it objectively no big deal.
SoldnerKei
Member
so the game rewards me for having good DI not only surviving but also buffing my attacks?? awesome, even if it's not that huge I guess it's something, totally pro-rage P:
Askherserenity
Member
Yeah, I just don't see any problems with the mechanics some people are crying about. I don't see how delaying matches for a bit longer is a problem. The vector thing sounds like a completely fine mechanic to add. A lot of people already do that in the first place. And the rage thing will barely make a difference I feel. Unless someone can come up with a good example where it could fuck up a match.
I only play it competitively. I was just trying to say that I really don't think these new mechanics will ruin the competitive game at all. They are just new mechanics you have to learn to deal with.
I only play it competitively. I was just trying to say that I really don't think these new mechanics will ruin the competitive game at all. They are just new mechanics you have to learn to deal with.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I wish Hugh was in this game.
PadWarrior
Member
In the end smash is just a game. Far more important things in life to be concerned with.
The video doesn't show those moves because it's trying to prove the mechanic exists in both cases. Moves that have little knockback of course are going to be less affected.
RomanceDawn
Member
VI huh? Well if it's here to stay I'll wait a while before I decide if I hate it or not. Hit stun canceling made me hate parts of brawl despite playing it for years and years but this doesn't sound game breaking at all. For my horizontal KOs it just means I'm going to be chasing off the stage like crazy and getting chased off the stage like crazy. That excites me quite a bit though it's something I would have been doing regardless of the knock back machanics.
I do wonder though, the biggest complaints are matches lasting a bit too long(which I'm cool with) so I wonder if people are loud enough will Sakurai patch the blast zones and/or alter this vectoring thing. Could the vectoring be altered?
I do wonder though, the biggest complaints are matches lasting a bit too long(which I'm cool with) so I wonder if people are loud enough will Sakurai patch the blast zones and/or alter this vectoring thing. Could the vectoring be altered?
JediLink
Member
Of course, but Sakurai's a stubborn son of a bitch so I can't really see it happening.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Theoretically anything could be altered. But yeah, stocks lasting too long is the problem IMO. Encouraging the air game and off-stage play is great (air dodge mechanics aside), but KOs from the stage should also be a reasonable thing too. If VI stayed the same but the horizontal blast zones were moved a bit closer that would also probably work.
theprodigy
Member
Because it would be more difficult to tell the difference on moves with less knockback?
That's the whole point of the video to begin with.
If you don't see the problem people are having with this from a competitive standpoint, I can explain. Many people want comboing in Smash Bros., they think combos are exciting and when you can convert a hit into a combo string for 35% it promotes more aggressive play, which many people enjoy watching. As far as VI affecting kill moves, people think characters surviving to 160% on fresh kill moves is a problem because they don't think the 100-160% range is terribly exciting to watch, as it's just one hit sending the other character off too far to really do much about it until they get close again, then repeating. The game gets significantly slower at high percents which people think isn't as exciting.
As far as rage, GameFAQs is GameFAQs and I don't see any reason to be upset at this from a competitive standpoint except for the very slight rubberbanding effect.
It's a problem for tournaments to finish on time. The longer a set takes, the longer the tournament itself can take. Of course, this is less of a problem with the 3DS version because everyone will have their own 3DS but on the Wii U, with these mechanics, where everyone has to take turns on a setup it will affect the overall tournament time length. This means that the rules have to be built around the pace of the game, hence the hotly debated "2 stocks vs 3 stocks". And the longer a given match takes, the more likely it is to settle on 2 stocks to make tournaments go faster.
That's the main concern. More people seem to want 3 stocks because of the possibility of messing up and losing a stock = less of an issue compared to 2 stocks + 3 stocks let's you adapt over a longer period of time. However, if the matches are going to almost go to time that can impact the pace of the tournament and hence why then it would go down to 2 stocks and probably a lower time limit.
You also have to consider that these tournaments will likely be running other Smash games or other fighting games in general and how players like M2K can hold up a tournament by entering multiple events -- if M2K's sets take forever in Smash 4 then he effectively delays the other events he's entered by some amount of time.
And there is also a case to be made for spectators. But I'd rather not get into that because it's more based on assumptions and subjectivity on what people want to watch.
I hope we get some changes to the overall balance of the game mechanics in the Wii U version.
Knowing Sakurai, he'll see that people are learning the mechanics and finding ways to make the game fun. To fix this, he'll double the blast zones and remove Smash attacks. All part of the obvious conspiracy.
Starwolf_UK
Member
Kinda. Lucario also does more damage.
There is a feeling that it's too early to judge things, but some of these mechanics only seem to have one outcome which makes these judgments understandable.
Personally, "advanced techniques" never come into play when I play with my bros and we have a lot of fun.
But when I watch Evo or Apex, or whatever random tournament, I don't watch to see people play who are only as good as I am (as in, not very). I want to see the people play that are actually affected by, discover, use/abuse these mechanics because high level play is amazing.
I'm not a part the competitive community, but I feel like those of us who aren't should let them hammer it out without feeling a need to pass judgments on them.
Goal line technology may not effect your pick-up soccer games so it may seem ridiculous for people to fuss over it, but I'm not watching your pick-up soccer games I'm watching the World Cup.
Personally, "advanced techniques" never come into play when I play with my bros and we have a lot of fun.
But when I watch Evo or Apex, or whatever random tournament, I don't watch to see people play who are only as good as I am (as in, not very). I want to see the people play that are actually affected by, discover, use/abuse these mechanics because high level play is amazing.
I'm not a part the competitive community, but I feel like those of us who aren't should let them hammer it out without feeling a need to pass judgments on them.
Goal line technology may not effect your pick-up soccer games so it may seem ridiculous for people to fuss over it, but I'm not watching your pick-up soccer games I'm watching the World Cup.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
I don't understand why this is something that needs to be changed? Too long compared to what? Previous Smash games? When will people realize new games aren't trying to replicate older ones? A difference is not something that needs to be fixed
And besides, people play Smash for HOURS. No one sits down and plays just one game, so why are games lasting longer a big deal for anything but a tournament setting?
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