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[PKrockin]

How does this VI work exactly, let's say someone hits me with an up smash, do I IMMEDIATELY press down on the circle pad??

Yes, you have to be pressing the direction before you actually get launched for it to work though.

I feel like it's more along the lines of some tester not noticing you could combo at all with Mario at 0%. Seriously, the way most moves pop people out, how long the hit stun is, the way air dodging works, it feels like they were trying not to include any guaranteed combos. Even if the happy accident happens to be intentional, it still seems like most of the time you just get 40-60 percent at the beginning of a stock, then not much works after that. Guys with the game, is my impression completely wrong on that last bit?

There are (were?) still some guaranteed combos out of throws at higher percents at least.

But like in the Mario example, if you have a free punish somehow, switch it up between u smash or f/d smash. Though all those moves might be slow enough that an experienced player will react, it's still nice that different VIs are needed.

Remember, VI works differently than DI. You can just hold down and toward the opponent to get the full vertical and full horizontal knockback mitigation.

 

[Beckx]

Challenge Q: the only challenge I'm missing from page 1 is this one:

033 [Item] Body Attack Enhancement Lv 1 Unlock 3 Body Custom Parts

Does this mean Mii body custom parts or defense items (I've unlocked a lot of these). Any help appreciated.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Someone ran an experiment on VI.

Somebodys gonna read all of this.. and never play the game. Even worse concern troll in smash threads with this stuff. Not anyone here btw.

 

[jorgejjvr]

Yes, you have to be pressing the direction before you actually get launched for it to work though.


There are (were?) still some guaranteed combos out of throws at higher percents at least.


Remember, VI works differently than DI. You can just hold down and toward the opponent to get the full vertical and full horizontal knockback mitigation.

So you kinda have to predict it then, like know there's nothing you can do and WILL get hit. Cause I would say the better option would be just to dodge

 

[emb]

See, I don't think that I do have a very special mindset, I want a game that's accessible enough to be enjoyable by everyone that actually offers well balanced gameplay mechanics with that and I honestly feel like sakurai has been slacking a bit in the gameplay design in favour of designing content.

I'd love for Smash to get joint directors for this same reason, with Sakurai handling all the content and fan service, but someone else that seems a bit more interested in truly making Smash a game for all levels rather than shutting out what the original fanbase found so exciting about high-level smash gameplay, I want more of the well designed aspects that were found in 64 and melee, not Brawl with a few changes.


I'm completely alright with people disagreeing with me people like different things, but I really don't care for how outright defensive about the game people can become at times, everything that I say has a basis to it and I'll usually at least try to make sure my reasoning is in that post, if people are seeing that as too "anti-smash 4" then that's them investing too much in their hype for the game.

I mean I could maybe understand it a bit more when it was all based on pre-release footage, but now it just seems outright dismissive at times.
People act as if I don't want this game to be enjoyable or something when I just spent £90 of money that I don't have to be able to play it 3 weeks early, I wanted the game to be anything but disappointing to me.

Pretty much agreed all around.

Posters in OTs will always be quick to defend. The same with a lot of people who've been so excited for something for so long. They'll look for any reason to discredit someone who takes away from that excitement. It's the honeymoon period.

I think people should also understand that you're looking for certain things out of the game. Other people might not care about the competitive side or the deeper mechanics, and just love the game because it has their favorite character in it or something. That's a fine opinion too, just kind of irrelevant to your issues with the game.

 

[Revven]

I believe I did see it posted.

Does the steam actually have an effect though? I didn't pay close attention, but it seemed like the video was just saying there was some knockback scaling with your own percent, rather than a jump at the steam.

Well, the steam is what can help signify to the player you're in Rage mode, I guess. It's like in the more recent Tekken games were their health bar is highlighted in red. It's a visual indicator, even if in this game it seems like the effect is still there at varying percents.

What exactly does it do? I'm unable to watch the video right now.

Basically, the more damage/percent you've taken the more knockback you can induce on someone else. The steam effect Sakurai showed in the PotD is a visual indicator for the rage mode but it seems to always be in effect based on what's shown in the video as Mario's knockback at 0% was weaker than when he was at 50% or 70%.

This has some amount of effect on testing VI because most people testing VI are testing it where whatever character they're using is at 0% while someone else is at high %. You're not always going to be at 0% when KOing someone so VI needs to be tested at varying %s now to be anywhere actually accurate for real matches.

This would also explain why there's so many differences in when people are actually getting KO'd. Not only do we have to include VI and stale moves, but now we have to keep in mind of our own % to KO someone as well as the opponent's % (not that the last part was something people didn't already do).

 

[PKrockin]

What I want to be tested with VI is the amount that a bad VI prediction can affect a throw. Be it used for a kill or for a follow up.

What I mean by that is let's say someone is using Ness against a Mario at kill percentage from a back throw, but can be saved by VI.

Most people would think the Ness player will do a back throw (so for this scenario, the back throw would go left if it is done). That means the the Mario player would VI down-right. But the Ness player knowing what the Mario player is going to do does a forward throw. Would that be able to kill them?

Now in an example of a throw being used and lead into a follow up. Zero was using Sheik doing many forward throws (forward would be right for this example) into double/triple f-air. Now let's say the player, using Mario, knows this, and decides to VI away (up-right would be the best option to stay away from the f-air follow ups). The Sheik player guesses that the player knew, and decides to do a back throw instead, which means the player would be launched to the left. Would the VI be strong enough that it will cause the back throw to be strong enough to make the Mario player still be close enough for a follow up for Sheik to be possible?

And I don't even know what difference that the vertical VI in both of these examples would even make a difference.

Well, in Ness's case, forward throw has almost fixed knockback in Brawl and it doesn't seem different here so I don't think it would kill without edgeguarding. But Ness's throws are slow enough to VI just on reaction, unlike say Falco's bthrow or Mario's dthrow.

 

[JoeInky]

I think VI mixups on throws will only work online, DaBoss.

Each throw direction does a unique animation before being thrown and it's very easy to react to that and press the right direction in local play, less so when online, but not really something that will be in a competitive setting, apart from characters with really quick throws like mentioned above, but they're an exception rather than a rule I think.


Also last week I got stung by a wasp playing Smash 4, today I cracked a chunk of my tooth off trying to open a bottle without my hands whilst playing Smash 4.


Smash 4 just wants to hurt me, obviously.

 

[Orbis Tabula]

Wow, thanks for all the answers, guys! I've never really been interested in playing Smash at a high level, but I love all the stuff that comes out as people try to figure out all the theory behind the game. It's like the history of physics writ small.

 

[Revven]

It's the game's "comeback" mechanic. You get more knockback on your moves as you are damaged.

Actually, I'm not sure it'll actually be used for the losing player to catch up, because usually when somebody gets a stock on another player they're at high percent and a stock up so it could potentially mean momentum too.

It is actually hard to say it's a comeback mechanic when you consider that if you get KO'd and the other guy is still alive at high % you're coming back at 0% with less knockback power to boot -- while the other guy has the higher knockback still.

I'm not sure what the purpose of this mechanic is, then, other than when it's a same-stock situation. Otherwise, if either opponent gets a leg up (i.e a stock lead) it could be even harder for the losing player to KO the winning player. At least, based on the testing done in the video with Mario's Usmash at 0%, 50%, and 70%.

 

[georly]

Edgeguarding is still a very risky proposition though due to all the changes, and the game is so slow paced that it's probably going to have to be 2 stocks, people generally won't bother with that risk when they only have 2 stocks and money is on the line.

If the game had high hitstun and only one air dodge and it became almost 64 like where games would go quickly but now more because of the use of good set ups and offstage play rather than 0-death combos and we could crank it up to 4 stocks, I'd find that more fun and interesting, but this game definitely isn't that.


Combos are just fun anyway, they don't need to be melee level, but Brawl was no way near satisfying to land a hit on someone due to lack of combos, and if VI means you can't combo for 2/3rds of a player's stock, then 4 isn't going to end up being a very satisfying game for me either.

Hey joe, if you want, please include my link custom move write-up in your links http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=130692788&postcount=12911

I tried to make it mimic your format so it'll fit right in.

 

[jorgejjvr]

Why does our own percentage matter?

 

[theprodigy]

So this is part of why I'm guessing high-percent Lucario is super powerful.

(although from 0% to 100% it only adds like 10% knockback, the increase seems to be the biggest from 50% to 150%)

 

[DaBoss]

Yea, I realize throws are much mroe easy to react, so VI-ing correctly would be much more likely, but just want to know the effect of it on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Well, in Ness's case, forward throw has almost fixed knockback in Brawl and it doesn't seem different here so I don't think it would kill without edgeguarding. But Ness's throws are slow enough to VI just on reaction, unlike say Falco's bthrow or Mario's dthrow.

Oh, did not know that, just used Ness because I know he has a good backthrow lol.

 

[PKrockin]

So you kinda have to predict it then, like know there's nothing you can do and WILL get hit. Cause I would say the better option would be just to dodge

You say this, but good DI wins games in Melee and Brawl, and doing VI consistently will only be even more important in this game if you want to win competitions.

 

[JoeM86]

And after much grinding for Jiggles, I now have all Pokémon customs. Commence the pictures and writeups and then I can go play Hyrule Warriors

 

[Josephl64]

how do you guys unlock custom moves so fast:? Do you just choose a character and go through classic?

 

[emb]

And after much grinding for Jiggles, I now have all Pokémon customs. Commence the pictures and writeups and then I can go play Hyrule Warriors

Pikachu confirmed playable in HW.

 

[Dr.Hadji]

I feel like it's more along the lines of some tester not noticing you could combo at all with Mario at 0%. Seriously, the way most moves pop people out, how long the hit stun is, the way air dodging works, it feels like they were trying not to include any guaranteed combos. Even if the happy accident happens to be intentional, it still seems like most of the time you just get 40-60 percent at the beginning of a stock, then not much works after that. Guys with the game, is my impression completely wrong on that last bit?

I'd say when you get around that 60-70% range you need to change your play style in order to maintain the level of control you want. And by changing your play style I mean probably doing something different than what you're used to in Melee.

 

[georly]

And after much grinding for Jiggles, I now have all Pokémon customs. Commence the pictures and writeups and then I can go play Hyrule Warriors

Looking forward to it!
I made link last night and it took roughly 1 hour to get all the custom moves (pure luck w/ trophy rush/classic mode), then another 2-3 hours to play around with them, take screenshots, upload them to the computer, and then do a write-up on my findings.

I appreciate all the hard work after I spent roughly 4 hours doing the write up for ONE GUY. It was probably a bit easier since link is my main, so I can only imagine doing it for someone I don't play that often.

You too joeinky. It's hard work that I think a lot of people don't appreciate. Just letting you know that *I* appreciate it.

how do you guys unlock custom moves so fast:? Do you just choose a character and go through classic?

For link last night, I was missing 5 of his 8 custom moves. With Link, I did classic 3 times at lvl 9, trying to always land on custom moves on the roulette (died a few times bringing my end difficulty to 8/8.5, losing a couple of random custom equipment pieces), and then did trophy rush 5 times (2.5 minutes each time), and I got them all.

Took about an hour. I also think I got lucky.

 

[Revven]

Why does our own percentage matter?

Watch this video, it's a new mechanic.

 

[PadWarrior]

Any good streams?

 

[Holy Order Sol]

It is actually hard to say it's a comeback mechanic when you consider that if you get KO'd and the other guy is still alive at high % you're coming back at 0% with less knockback power to boot -- while the other guy has the higher knockback still.

I'm not sure what the purpose of this mechanic is, then, other than when it's a same-stock situation. Otherwise, if either opponent gets a leg up (i.e a stock lead) it could be even harder for the losing player to KO the winning player. At least, based on the testing done in the video with Mario's Usmash at 0%, 50%, and 70%.

Yeah it's pretty confusing if you think about it in terms of what it's meant to accomplish. Only thing it has in common with a comeback mechanic is rewarding failure.

 

[Anbec7]

So did I missed anything? Suddenly BOOM 20 pages to read here and... and.. I feel lazy! lol

Also today is my birthday! woot! but it sucks that people that I know congratulate my twin and not me ): to suddenly remember later and feel so bad (but I have received a few things for that lol)

Have an awesome friday smashGAF

 

[PadWarrior]

So did I missed anything? Suddenly BOOM 20 pages to read here and... and.. I feel lazy! lol

Also today is my birthday! woot! but it sucks that people that I know congratulate my twin and not me ): to suddenly remember later and feel so bad (but I have received a few things for that lol)

Have an awesome friday smashGAF

Happy birthday dude!

 

[Boss Doggie]

So uh yeah, why aren't people chasing the enemy that survived an attack? Why aren't you going offensive to that person who survived the attack through VI?

 

[PKrockin]

Watch this video, it's a new mechanic.

It's funny seeing the explanations come out for why we were so baffled at how kill moves randomly easily KOed or not even come close to killing in the first few tournaments.

 

[StayDead]

I'm doing so bad against your Ness Joe ;;

So uh yeah, why aren't people chasing the enemy that survived an attack? Why aren't you going offensive to that person who survived the attack through VI?

Due to only having 2 stocks it's too risky to chase people off stage. Which is why 2 stocks is dumb

 

[Anura]

So uh yeah, why aren't people chasing the enemy that survived an attack? Why aren't you going offensive to that person who survived the attack through VI?

You can't chase them down when they fly that far away from you and still live.

 

[JoeM86]

Looking forward to it!
I made link last night and it took roughly 1 hour to get all the custom moves (pure luck w/ trophy rush/classic mode), then another 2-3 hours to play around with them, take screenshots, upload them to the computer, and then do a write-up on my findings.

I appreciate all the hard work after I spent roughly 4 hours doing the write up for ONE GUY. It was probably a bit easier since link is my main, so I can only imagine doing it for someone I don't play that often.

You too joeinky. It's hard work that I think a lot of people don't appreciate. Just letting you know that *I* appreciate it.

Well I don't know if I'll go into as much depth as you guys, will be doing some testing and writeup though, for my site.

I honestly don't know how long it'll take me to collate them all for the site for all characters. I hate that I don't half-arse things at times.

 

[Magnet_Man]

Guys... I think I broke my 3DS stick. It sometimes gets stuck in a direction (say I start running, let go, but the game keeps walking) and other times a direction doesn't work (mainly up).




Haven't tested on any other game but the demo yet.

Pull the stick up. Imagine it like a R3 button or something but it not clicking up. Just give it a gentle tug and it'll pop up and be good to go.

And stop being so rough with it you goon.

 

[JoeInky]

Thanks Georly, it is much harder work than people realise, especially with characters like Villager who I don't particularly like with a down special that has a lot to write about for each one.

Also Lucario took long with his Aura abilities.





Also is Qikz the guy who 2-0'd me on Makai's stream the other day? Because I just met him in for glory and I'm at something like 5/6-0 now.

 

[theprodigy]

Also is Qikz the guy who 2-0'd me on Makai's stream the other day? Because I just met him in for glory and I'm at something like 5/6-0 now.

That was Anura aka Dotty.

 

[StayDead]

Thanks Georly, it is much harder work than people realise, especially with characters like Villager who I don't particularly like with a down special that has a lot to write about for each one.

Also Lucario took long with his Aura abilities.





Also is Qikz the guy who 2-0'd me on Makai's stream the other day? Because I just met him in for glory and I'm at something like 5/6-0 now.

That was me.

I am Qikz. I'm getting owned.

Help ;-;

 

[Boss Doggie]

I'm doing so bad against your Ness Joe ;;

Due to only having 2 stocks it's too risky to chase people off stage. Which is why 2 stocks is dumb

You can't chase them down when they fly that far away from you and still live.

Then you make sure they don't come back.

 

[JoeInky]

That was Anura aka Dotty.

Ah ok, he/she's next.

 

[mmxzero]

Anyone getting the new Smash 3DS today?

I am! I need a fresh slide pad as mine gets sticky when I put too much pressure on it. It already had problems though because it didn't feel the same after I had to send it in for repairs when I dropped it.

It's a shame it's not the new xl model but whatever, I already have Xenoblade.

 

[StayDead]

Ah ok, he/she's next.

Nonono, that was definately me.

I am playing you right now.

 

[DaBoss]

Then you make sure they don't come back.

That's easier said than done against other human players.

 

[JediLink]

So uh yeah, why aren't people chasing the enemy that survived an attack? Why aren't you going offensive to that person who survived the attack through VI?

Well if you knock someone high into the sky, there's not really much you can do to hit them, now is there? Maybe if you knock them horizontally you might maybe be able to edgeguard them but killing off the top is going to be annoying.

 

[PadWarrior]

I am! I need a fresh slide pad as mine gets sticky when I put too much pressure on it. It already had problems though because it didn't feel the same after I had to send it in for repairs when I dropped it.

It's a shame it's not the new xl model but whatever, I already have Xenoblade.

Nice red or blue?

 

[JoeInky]

Nonono, that was definately me.

I am playing you right now.

No I mean I'm going to beat them when I get the chance.

 

[DrStiles]

Anyone getting the new Smash 3DS today?

I'm tempted to, but at the same time my OG 3DS is still fine and there's the New 3DS next year. Descisions...

 

[theprodigy]

Nonono, that was definately me.

I am playing you right now.

well he 3-stocked you with Ness, so....

 

[Boss Doggie]

That's easier said than done against other human players.

Definitely, but my point is that VI doesn't make it "more defensive" when the offensive options are right there. Hell if anything I'm getting convinced that playing Melee made people more "safe" in their options.

Well if you knock someone high into the sky, there's not really much you can do to hit them, now is there? Maybe if you knock them horizontally you might maybe be able to edgeguard them but killing off the top is going to be annoying.

And there are characters who can have outstanding vertical attacks.

Maybe people should also consider that for character weaknesses and analysis, that they have better horizontal killing than vertical?

Maybe people should, I dunno, think outside the box? O:

 

[StayDead]

well he 3-stocked you with Ness, so....

He didn't. We only played 2 games and one we both disconnected.

The games today though, I'm not doing well at all. I'm so bad.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Definitely, but my point is that VI doesn't make it "more defensive" when the offensive options are right there. Hell if anything I'm getting convinced that playing Melee made people more "safe" in their options.



And there are characters who can have outstanding vertical attacks.

Maybe people should also consider that for character weaknesses and analysis, that they have better horizontal killing than vertical?

Maybe people should, I dunno, think outside the box? O:

People have been doing that for years for every Smash game now. Suggesting they haven't is just you trying to paint them as idiots.

 

[Proven]

~50% difference is completely insane. Vertical KO's are a thing of the past for characters that can't follow up easily like Mega Man and Sonic.

That said most low % combos seem to be mostly unaffected by it and horizontal KO's will probably not be as much of a deal since the game already has a bigger focus on edgeguarding/gimping and off-screen play. The tests also don't factor into the Rage Effect so it's all going to be really circumstantial.

On vertical KOs, while I don't want to defend VI it could be a parallel to horizontal KOs. Just as if you're not a character with a powerful horizontal KO attack you're forced to go off stage to edge guard much of the game, you need to be a character with a powerful up smash/uair/up throw to get a (relatively) quick vertical KO.

Edit: I feel like this post is late.

 

[KittenMaster]

And there are characters who can have outstanding vertical attacks.

Maybe people should also consider that for character weaknesses and analysis, that they have better horizontal killing than vertical?

Maybe people should, I dunno, think outside the box? O:

The vertical kill example is mostly for mathematical testing of how much VI affects knockback, since vertical blast zones are closer than horizontal ones and easier to determine variability.

 

[Anura]

Ah ok, he/she's next.

Joelnky pls