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[emb]

Why not just call it Hitstun Shuffling? That's what the game calls it.

The mechanic has already had a name since Smash (64? Maybe it wasn't named until Melee) from the community. Maybe the official name will catch on, maybe it won't. People will call it whatever makes more sense to them. Both terms can coexist, but for a long time now people will probably continue to use what they've used for the past 10 years.

Edit: Oh, neeeevermind. Sorry about that. I thought the post I quoted was responding to the one that said Hitstun Shuffling is just Smash DI.

 

[ffdgh]

What is "rage"?

New mechanic that gives your attacks more knockback(NOT DAMAGE) at higher percents. Basically a pseudo aura effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZPxLLaL4N8

 

[Guesong]

What is "rage"?

Milk it's like you never played DotA, what a jokester!

 

[Astarte]

Oh, it's knockback? Okay that's not bad.

 

[Chizzanger]

Man, this game looks really good on the 3DS, I'm really impressed.

 

[OricWindstar]

It's pretty significant, but we do need to account for the gravity multiplier in these vertical situations. It seems like there is a bit of a snowball effect, since the longer a character survives, the higher the effect due to gravity.

This is a really good point.

 

[chaosblade]

I need to clear this out.

Smash has ALWAYS been more of a party game than a hardcore fighter in design. Hell, just ask the actual game designer and creator. The problem alot (not all) of the competitive natured people seem to have is that because they managed to make a somewhat successful hardcore fighting game by altering alot of rules in meele, they also feel that this is the way the game should be designed, but it's not.
Now I've always been on the side that thinks there should be a balance between fun and deeper mechanics. The more people that enjoy the game the better, but I'm getting sick and tired of people expecting the game to cater to their specific needs. There's just no flexibility from these people.

Yes it would be ideal if both casual nintendo loving people and hardcore competitive players could enjoy the game, but that has never been the overall focus of the series. The focus has always been fan service first. There really is no arguing this because the evidence is clear as day, else we wouldn't even have the "Sakurai hates us" comments. Sakurai might not be the best fighting game designer, he tried to offer the competitive community of smash something more with smash 4 (for glory, faster than brawl, hiring namco etc), but even that doesn't seem to be enough.

Before you go and label me casual or a Sakurai lover do know that I've got my own problems with some of his choices. Tripping in brawl was stupid, not having customized moves in random online is dumb, no online smash-run, boss levels, clones. The list goes on. Yeah there's alot of decisions with this game that I would have made different, but I can still try to enjoy the game for what it is, instead of not enjoying it for what it isn't.
I'm sorry if you feel offended, but i had to get this off my chest. If you can't enjoy smash 4 that's sad, but life goes on, there's more games out there and plenty of fighters that are designed for your needs and wants.

TLDR: If the game isn't designed for you in mind, don't get upset over not enjoying it.

I feel like you're missing the point. Smash 64 and Melee were both games that successfully nurtured a competitive scene while being a big hit with everyone else as well. What's wrong with striving for that again?

It's not like anybody is asking for any massive overhauls to the game. In general it comes down to a handful of small issues adding up, issues that could be fixed without damaging Smash 4 as a party game.

Why not just call it Hitstun Shuffling? That's what the game calls it.

Hitstun Shuffling is their official term for Smash DI, it's not the same thing as vectoring/knockback influence.

 

[Timeaisis]

Rage is going to be interesting.

 

[georly]

Well I downloaded the NA demo for the heck of it lol. Looks like the club nintendo and regular use different saves.

I wonder which one it pulls the coin bonus from? Maybe it's both (total 1000 coins!)?

As for VI being a difference of 60%~ vertical, just assume that good VI is the norm, and so you go for KOs at higher percent. Different than before, but i'd argue not worse. Makes stock last longer, but I don't see that as inherently a bad thing. Just different than what we're used to.

 

[jorgejjvr]

Something tells me people will find smash 4 even faster and much easier to kill on Wii U

 

[Dr.Hadji]

One of my main problems is the idea that the game has to be competitive OR casual, as if Smash Bros. has never struck a balance in the past (64, Melee).

Many of the things that would make the game more enjoyable at a more complex level either won't affect the casual player or they just won't care about it.

This is where I feel you're a little too biased Joe. Brawl was competitive. Not in the way you might have liked but it was a competitive game. It had huge tourneys for years. That's competitive. Smash 4 will be competitive as well.

Maybe I'm missing something, like an implied "IMO" or something. But a lot of people try and talk to definitely about Brawl in a way that runs contrary to what actually happened. I kind of feel the need to go "hey everyone tourney level Brawl did happen you know".

 

[emb]

I feel like you're missing the point. Smash 64 and Melee were both games that successfully nurtured a competitive scene while being a big hit with everyone else as well. What's wrong with striving for that again?

It's not like anybody is asking for any massive overhauls to the game. In general it comes down to a handful of small issues adding up, issues that could be fixed without damaging Smash 4 as a party game.

Exactly. I understand that Smash is a great party game, but there's nothing stopping it from succeeding from both angles. Nothing except Sakurai having a hunch that unheard voices who don't post online are upset that the game was too fast.

This is where I feel you're a little too biased Joe. Brawl was competitive. Not in the way you might have liked but it was a competitive game. It had huge tourneys for years. That's competitive. Smash 4 will be competitive as well.

Maybe I'm missing something, like an implied "IMO" or something. But a lot of people try and talk to definitely about Brawl in a way that runs contrary to what actually happened. I kind of feel the need to go "hey everyone tourney level Brawl did happen you know".

This is a good point too. Unless the game devolves to randomness, it will still be competitive. Playing against high level Brawl players is just as hard as playing against experienced Melee players. Whatever level playing field they try to create with the new mechanics won't really work to remove skill gaps. It'll just make people like me whine about it.

 

[Cody_D165]

Something tells me people will find smash 4 even faster and much easier to kill on Wii U

I dunno about the game itself changing, but the familiar controller and C Stick alone should at least help players get better acquainted with the game.

 

[PKrockin]

I need to clear this out.

Smash has ALWAYS been more of a party game than a hardcore fighter in design. Hell, just ask the actual game designer and creator. The problem alot (not all) of the competitive natured people seem to have is that because they managed to make a somewhat successful hardcore fighting game by altering alot of rules in meele, they also feel that this is the way the game should be designed, but it's not.
Now I've always been on the side that thinks there should be a balance between fun and deeper mechanics. The more people that enjoy the game the better, but I'm getting sick and tired of people expecting the game to cater to their specific needs. There's just no flexibility from these people.

Yes it would be ideal if both casual nintendo loving people and hardcore competitive players could enjoy the game, but that has never been the overall focus of the series. The focus has always been fan service first. There really is no arguing this because the evidence is clear as day, else we wouldn't even have the "Sakurai hates us" comments. Sakurai might not be the best fighting game designer. He tried to offer the competitive community of smash something more with smash 4 (for glory, faster than brawl, hiring namco etc), but even that doesn't seem to be enough.

Before you go and label me casual or a Sakurai lover do know that I've got my own problems with some of his choices. Tripping in brawl was stupid, not having customized moves in random online is dumb, no online smash-run, boss levels, clones. The list goes on. Yeah there's alot of decisions with this game that I would have made different, but I can still try to enjoy the game for what it is, instead of not enjoying it for what it isn't.
I'm sorry if you feel offended, but i had to get this off my chest. If you can't enjoy smash 4 that's sad, but life goes on, there's more games out there and plenty of fighters that are designed for your needs and wants.

TLDR: If the game isn't designed for you in mind, don't get upset over not enjoying it.

I could swear I've seen this exact same post before in this thread.

Downplaying Smash's huge success in tournaments, ignoring the fact that games can be designed for both casual and competitive play, painting everyone in the competitive scene with one brush, and telling them all to just deal with it ain't cool.

 

[OceanBlue]

I don't see where the "casual vs. competitive" viewpoint comes from. From my own casual perspective, it wouldn't matter to me if rage didn't exist or if KDI/VI/whatever was just DI or didn't exist either because I'd play the game in the same casual way as always. I don't see why there's a "casual" viewpoint that gets invested in the argument of whether these are good mechanics.

If anything, I just see a lot of, "Don't critique the game! Just like it for what it is!" in this thread instead.

 

[PsionBolt]

This game is really fun.

I'm loving Mega Man. It's a shame he only has one special though.

 

[jorgejjvr]

People need to chill and have fun with the game xD, worst case scenario, the standards will be 2-3 stocks....sooooo what?? you can still play competitively and have fun. Hopefully people dont use rage and vectoring as excuses to why they keep losing lol

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

I agree except that last line. Sakurai has shown us his goal is to make the skill floor as low as possible and have the ceiling as low as possible as well - which is antithetical to competitive play.

There's been absolutely nothing supporting this statement. This is classic competitive Smash complaining about new mechanics and tweaks. If matches last longer (or lives) then play will be adjusted to compensate for that. If other changes are introduced, players should adjust their styles and not try and play like they have in previous games. Judging a games play by people playing the demo and the full game for a week is bizarre

 

[jorgejjvr]

Smash 4 is also soooooo much fun to watch, last night zero played with sheik and OMG it was a blast to watch, so fast, the combos, the off the ledge fights etc. So much faster, competitive and fun to watch than brawl. I cannot wait to have it in my hands

 

[Anth0ny]

I don't think the "Smash isn't a competitive fighter!" card can even be played anymore considering Nintendo has been hosting/sponsoring tournaments for the game over the last year, and For Glory mode is a very real mode that actually exists in the game! Sakurai has acknowledged the "no items, 1v1, neutral stages only" userbase and made that style of play a part of the game like never before.

 

[zroid]

What if we start calling competitive players casual, and casual players competitive? Would that help?

would bring new meaning to the term "filthy casual"

 

[boiled goose]

I don't see where the "casual vs. competitive" viewpoint comes from. From my own casual perspective, it wouldn't matter to me if rage didn't exist or if KDI/VI/whatever was just DI or didn't exist either because I'd play the game in the same casual way as always. I don't see why there's a "casual" viewpoint that gets invested in the argument of whether these are good mechanics.

If anything, I just see a lot of, "Don't critique the game! Just like it for what it is!" in this thread instead.

100% agree.

 

[jorgejjvr]

I don't think the "Smash isn't a competitive fighter!" card can even be played anymore considering Nintendo has been hosting/sponsoring tournaments for the game over the last year, and For Glory mode is a very real mode that actually exists in the game! Sakurai has acknowledged the "no items, 1v1, neutral stages only" userbase and made that style of play a part of the game like never before.

Exactly, looking forward to those 1 on 1!

 

[emb]

Smash 4 is also soooooo much fun to watch, last night zero played with sheik and OMG it was a blast to watch, so fast, the combos, the off the ledge fights etc. So much faster, competitive and fun to watch than brawl. I cannot wait to have it in my hands

Sheik really looks like she's fun to play! Otori at least made her look really aggressive and dangerous.

 

[OricWindstar]

I don't think the "Smash isn't a competitive fighter!" card can even be played anymore considering Nintendo has been hosting/sponsoring tournaments for the game over the last year, and For Glory mode is a very real mode that actually exists in the game! Sakurai has acknowledged the "no items, 1v1, neutral stages only" userbase and made that style of play a part of the game like never before.

Agreed. You can disagree with the way it's been implemented, but the game is definitely not trying to actively piss off "competitive" gamers.

 

[johnbone]

You know, since it appears VI only works upon anticipation of a move and not post-launch, mix-up verticals like Falcon's side b and Doc's up b will still be effective tools, as they're hard to predict. Charged up smashes, on the other hand, seem to be pretty useless now.

 

[Cody_D165]

Let's be honest the only thing any of us really care about is handing other GAFfers their asses when we inevitably face off online

 

[Mr. Smiley]

Don't mean to interrupt the flow of discussion but does anyone have that article or quote where Sakurai considers Smash Wii U "Smash 5?"

 

[Lord Phol]

I feel like you're missing the point. Smash 64 and Melee were both games that successfully nurtured a competitive scene while being a big hit with everyone else as well. What's wrong with striving for that again?

It's not like anybody is asking for any massive overhauls to the game. In general it comes down to a handful of small issues adding up, issues that could be fixed without damaging Smash 4 as a party game.



Hitstun Shuffling is their official term for Smash DI, it's not the same thing as vectoring/knockback influence.

If you read my post you would know that I think there's nothing wrong with that, I definetly want the game to be enjoyed by more people. I just think it's stupid for people to be angry over design choices that conflicts with their particular interest, when they aren't the main target audience to begin with.

Take WoW for example. I love World-PVP but hate Arenas. I'm in the minority so I can't really expect Blizzard to cater to my needs. Hence I moved away from WoW to try other games.

Whether or not Smash 64 and Meele were better for competitive play than Brawl/Smash 4 is irrelevant. The games were never designed for that primarily, which is why Brawl and Smash 4 are what they are. That Smash 64/Meele in particular were big hits for fighting fans probably has more to do with luck than design choices.

I could swear I've seen this exact same post before in this thread.

Downplaying Smash's huge success in tournaments, ignoring the fact that games can be designed for both casual and competitive play, painting everyone in the competitive scene with one brush, and telling them all to just deal with it ain't cool.

Way to not read the post. Here let me help you:

Ignoring the fact that games can be designed for both casual and competitive play..

"Yes it would be ideal if both casual nintendo loving people and hardcore competitive players could enjoy the game".

..painting everyone in the competitive scene with one brush..

" The problem alot (not all) of the competitive natured people seem to have..".

 

[johnbone]

I don't think the "Smash isn't a competitive fighter!" card can even be played anymore considering Nintendo has been hosting/sponsoring tournaments for the game over the last year, and For Glory mode is a very real mode that actually exists in the game! Sakurai has acknowledged the "no items, 1v1, neutral stages only" userbase and made that style of play a part of the game like never before.

Sometimes it almost seems like Sakurai has multiple personalities, as his catering to advanced players with For Glory is a stark difference from his outspoken disdain for "complex fighting games."

 

[OricWindstar]

Let's be honest the only thing any of us really care about is handing other GAFfers their asses when we inevitably face off online

Haha, here here! Can't wait till we can all jump online and play together.

 

[backlot]

Sometimes it almost seems like Sakurai has multiple personalities, as his catering to advanced players with For Glory is a stark difference from his outspoken disdain for "complex fighting games."

A game doesn't have to be complex to be competitive.

 

[JoeInky]

Smash 4 is also soooooo much fun to watch, last night zero played with sheik and OMG it was a blast to watch, so fast, the combos, the off the ledge fights etc. So much faster, competitive and fun to watch than brawl. I cannot wait to have it in my hands

To be fair that's probably because the other player didn't know what VI/KBI was, I was playing Sheik earlier and they couldn't do any of their combos if I got above a measily 30%, just because I held away.

Once people get used to using these mechanics, you're going to see a lot less combos.

 

[IntelliHeath]

Let's be honest the only thing any of us really care about is handing other GAFfers their asses when we inevitably face off online

Heh, I'm not entirely sure about 3DS but I would says, Bring it on for Wii U. I will take any challengers.

 

[Kouichi]

If you read my post you would know that I think there's nothing wrong with that, I definetly want the game to be enjoyed by more people. I just think it's stupid for people to be angry over design choices that conflicts with their particular interest, when they aren't the main target audience to begin with.

Take WoW for example. I love World-PVP but hate Arenas. I'm in the minority so I can't really expect Blizzard to cater to my needs. Hence I moved away from WoW to try other games.

Whether or not Smash 64 and Meele were better for competitive play than Brawl/Smash 4 is irrelevant. The games were never designed for that primarily, which is why Brawl and Smash 4 are what they are. That those Smash 64/Meele in particular were big hits for fighting fans probably has more to do with luck than design choices.

But people still have the right to complain about the direction or the method at which the developers change things to fit their direction. For example, if Sakurai decides to only appeal to causal, I have the right to complain and argue that Smash shouldn't only appeal to one side. Also, even if I accept the direction, I can still complain about certain changes that were made to meet the direction such as tripping being a horrible mechanic.

I don't agree with people saying that Smash 4 is completely ignoring the competitive players. However, that does not mean they aren't allowed to complain and voice their opinions. If people don't agree with the direction, they have every right to voice their disagreements.

 

[emb]

Heh, I'm not entirely sure about 3DS but I would says, Bring it on for Wii U. I will take any challengers.

You're on. I'll destroy you.

 

[Lord Phol]

But people still have the right to complain about the direction or the method at which the developers change things to fit their direction. For example, if Sakurai decides to only appeal to causal, I have the right to complain and argue that Smash shouldn't only appeal to one side. Also, even if I accept the direction, I can still complain about certain changes that were made to meet the direction such as tripping being a horrible mechanic.

I don't agree with people saying that Smash 4 is completely ignoring the competitive players. However, that does not mean they aren't allowed to complain and voice their opinions. If people don't agree with the direction, they have every right to voice their disagreements.

Of course people have the right to, just like I have the right to voice my opinion and you the right to voice yours. Freedom of speech and all that etc etc. That doesn't mean that it's any less stupid. I just wish people could actually think outside their own needs for once. It's all about expectations, consider all the facts before you start crusading.

This is getting a bit too agressive though, and I have a feeling if this goes on I'm just going to make alot of people angrier. I needed to vent with my first post, that has been done so I rest my case.

 

[IntelliHeath]

You're on. I'll destroy you.

Heh. We'll see. I might have some johns ready.

Speaking of Master Core.

 

[JoeInky]

A game doesn't have to be complex to be competitive.

It does according to Sakurai!

 

[Guesong]

Sometimes it almost seems like Sakurai has multiple personalities, as his catering to advanced players with For Glory is a stark difference from his outspoken disdain for "complex fighting games."

To be fair, I don't see "For Glory" as being a catering to a specific subgenre of player. Alot of people will play that mode. Alot of them will not have watched a single Smash tournament of their life. It's a more competitive-oriented option in a new Smash Brothers game.

When Sakurai refers to complex fighting mechanics, I'm pretty sure he means games like Street Fighter IV or MvC3 when you have to have the manual dexterity required to do 1-frame links and/or memorize a touch-of-death combo that is well over 20 inputs in a row in most cases.

If there are mechanics that serves the game that can be adapted to be nearly automated (like autocancelling instead of L-cancelling for most moves) and thus removing some barrier for the player. That is not a barrier of him not understanding the game, but merely not having the skill/dexterity necessary to input those commands at specific times. An artificial barrier, so to speak. I think it's a great way to push things forward.

 

[backlot]

It does according to Sakurai!

What?

 

[ffdgh]

Heh. We'll see. I might have some johns ready.

Speaking of Master Core.

Oh he gets one too...wait what about Master and crazy hand?

 

[munchie64]

Isn't For Glory based on data from online play in Brawl?

Let's be honest the only thing any of us really care about is handing other GAFfers their asses when we inevitably face off online

I'll be prepared to blame it on the lag!

 

[JoeInky]

What?

In an interview once he said something like "To make the game more fun for tournaments I'd probably have to add really complex controls, which goes against the nature of smash" or some other similar non-reason that completely misses the point.

 

[zroid]

Heh. We'll see. I might have some johns ready.

Speaking of Master Core.

GOT DAMN

 

[georly]

Oh he gets one too...wait what about Master and crazy hand?

Maybe i'm cRazy, but the announcer totally says 'Lazy hand' (probably cLazy hand, but it just sounds like Lazy hand), even though it's written crazy hand. Sigh

 

[jorgejjvr]

Let's be honest the only thing any of us really care about is handing other GAFfers their asses when we inevitably face off online

THIS

all I care about

 

[Lord Phol]

Heh. We'll see. I might have some johns ready.

Speaking of Master Core.

Neat! I've actually tried not to spoil this particular fight for myself so I'm looking forward to getting there myself.

 

[freethoughtbubble]

I don't see where the "casual vs. competitive" viewpoint comes from. From my own casual perspective, it wouldn't matter to me if rage didn't exist or if KDI/VI/whatever was just DI or didn't exist either because I'd play the game in the same casual way as always. I don't see why there's a "casual" viewpoint that gets invested in the argument of whether these are good mechanics.

If anything, I just see a lot of, "Don't critique the game! Just like it for what it is!" in this thread instead.

This right here. Thank you.

 

[chaosblade]

If you read my post you would know that I think there's nothing wrong with that, I definetly want the game to be enjoyed by more people. I just think it's stupid for people to be angry over design choices that conflicts with their particular interest, when they aren't the main target audience to begin with.

Take WoW for example. I love World-PVP but hate Arenas. I'm in the minority so I can't really expect Blizzard to cater to my needs. Hence I moved away from WoW to try other games.

Whether or not Smash 64 and Meele were better for competitive play than Brawl/Smash 4 is irrelevant. The games were never designed for that primarily, which is why Brawl and Smash 4 are what they are. That Smash 64/Meele in particular were big hits for fighting fans probably has more to do with luck than design choices.

I don't think it's ever a good idea to throw the most dedicated portion of your fanbase under the bus. There is nothing to be gained by not appealing to competitive crowd. Not only that it's difficult to say they aren't relevant considering, as previously mentioned, Nintendo is actually sponsoring tournaments.

There is also nothing wrong with criticism regardless of whether or not those critiquing are the primary target audience. They were part of the audience for years, is it really fair to say people should just shrug their shoulders and not care after all those years? People complain and show concern because they want to enjoy the new game, and they would like to see changes and improvements that would not negatively impact anyone while improving the game from a competitive standpoint.

That's the whole thing. Nobody stands to lose anything, this is basically a discussion between people saying "the game could be improved by ____" and others replying "you're wrong the game is perfect as it is and nothing needs to be changed."