Won't absorb Dr. Mario's Pills either from what I saw. I thought maybe it's literally just energy-based projectiles, but it also absorbs Mario's fireballs, soooo... WTF? Very limited use in any case. I've gone through tons of online matches without once pulling out the bucket, and literally none getting it to completion and using it. Probably a bit of my fault but still think its use is too limited.
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Super Smash Bros. for 3DS |OT3| Little Mac and Cheese
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
- Start date
Won't absorb Dr. Mario's Pills either from what I saw. I thought maybe it's literally just energy-based projectiles, but it also absorbs Mario's fireballs, soooo... WTF? Very limited use in any case. I've gone through tons of online matches without once pulling out the bucket, and literally none getting it to completion and using it. Probably a bit of my fault but still think its use is too limited.
Wiz
Member
Ok. Yeah, my main problem is getting in close consistently to pressure her. Honestly I haven't had too many fights against her, but my fights vs her have been noticeably more difficult than vs. any other character.
Spinosaurus
Member
Anyone wanna play 1v1?
3093-7162-3807
EDIT: Nevermind! Playing with a friend.
3093-7162-3807
EDIT: Nevermind! Playing with a friend.
Let's fight! 2-3 matches if that's okay with you
FC on my profile too.
added you, you want to host?
You can host. Any rule is fine with me.
Shamrock7r
Member
I think it's based on a combination of consensus among tourney players, and how well a character places in tournies, and how often he/she is used.
Sheik, Bowser, and Rosalina seem to be agreed to be top tier, with sheik being at the tippity top. I've heard Sonic is up there.
Is it lagging like crazy for you aswell?
Do anyone know why those three are considered top tier compared to some of the lower tier characters, in specific? Do their moves do more damage, or have special properties, that make it so that they are leagues ahead?
If it's based purely off of tourny results or the number of people playing them I can understand the rankings, I was just wondering if they are fundamentally better than the rest of the cast (as is the case in Street Fighter games, a lot of the time).
I don't have enough experience with smash to know for sure why Sheik's moves would be better than other characters, for example. I'm not trying to pick top tier or anything (already have my favorites), I'm just trying to understand the game some more.
Greninja and Yoshi too. The former mostly on tournament results, the later mostly on theory. Oh, and Zero Suit Samus too for sure. And I'd say Duck Hunt and Pac Man are up there with the 'maybe's. It's hard to get a clear picture early on, but a lot of characters are standing out.
I'm still sticking with my half blind guess that Rosalina's going to the clear best over time. I played around with her a couple times and just had that gut feeling. She just seems like she's going to be the best. If she wasn't so light I'd feel lot more certain though.
This Smashpedia wiki page gives a good indication of criteria used:
http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Tier_list
http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Tier_list
Their strengths are pretty varied. Sheik is fast and able to put a lot of pressure on opponents, Bowser KOs really early, and Rosaluma has the puppet character gimmick, plus generally big, strong hitboxes. Part of it is tournament results (over time, the list is based more on that usually), but part of it also just the general collective impression of which characters are more successful for a lot of people.
The Great Gonzales
Member
I have a devil of a time beating Rosalina with Villager. Luma pretty much neutralizes the Lloid Rocket and Timber, and with her ginormous hitboxes, it's just too difficult to get close to her. F-tilt is one of the only moves I can reliably land against her.
Yeah sakurai pointed it out in the POTD. Miis come in 3 sizes. Basically if I'm not mistaken...
Small mii is faster.
Medium mii is all aound.
Heavy mii hits harder.
tauroxd
Member
Yep! They affect how you Mii fights!
And weight also play into account in how much power ups you can add to your Mii in Smash Run.
Generally, tier lists are determined based on tournament results and match-up data (that is, how many match-ups a character has an advantage in or does favorably). The worst character in Brawl, for example... Ganondorf had the least favorable MUs across the board. He I think even has several 10:90 MUs in Brawl. Couple that data with how he places in tournaments and how frequently he is featured in tournaments (which was low in both departments) and that's why he was the worst character in the game.
Meanwhile, Meta Knight was the best character hands down and it's because of his traits as a character + those traits' effects on his MUs. His worst MU was a 50:50 against Pikachu (and himself? The mirror match) if I recall. Everything else he has an advantage in. And then of course, there were hundreds of MKs in tournaments and people who even had pocket MKs to deal with their bad MUs.
This stuff isn't figured out until at least a year after the game is out and even then, the tier list can change as players get better or characters get figured out. Ultimately, the best character in a Smash game usually has quick moves but they're able to string them together to deal massive damage, have good KO options, and have an above average recovery (or even amazing, like MK did in Brawl). However, character traits aren't the only thing that determines them. Character traits are only really significant early on as that's when players are making out characters to be "amazing" or "high up there" based on feel alone. There's not enough MU data or tournament results to say definitively Sheik, Rosalina, or Bowser are "top tier". In that same vein, there's not enough data to say someone like Ganondorf definitively is the worst character again.
However, based on "feeling" and what character traits tend to lead to characters being successful can pinpoint early on what characters are good/bad. It's fair to say people are feeling that Sheik is going to be one of the best characters for a long time, but you can't say she's top tier because there's no actual tier list and one cannot be made this early on. It's generally pointless to have the discussion at all because everyone that's presumably below Sheik, Rosalina, or Bowser (or any "top tier considered" character) are undetermined based on "feeling" or their traits.
Best to focus on who you like and try to learn the character than seeking out "what's hot" as what's hot changes on a week-to-week basis (or at least, so far, it has).
Thank you, I understand the matchup ratings as its the same way in Street Fighter. I was just curious if there are different rules for Smash since it's not really a SF style of game, so I'm glad to see some similarities between the two.
It's kind of funny though, my favorite character in Smash4 right now is Ganon! Granted I don't play at a high level, but I find it funny my favorite was the worst in Brawl.
The thing I hate most about Smash tier lists in that they never consider how well the different characters play in team (or at least have a teams tier list). For example, teams G&W might be top tier while singles G&W might be mid. Or for an older example ICs are upper tier in any Smash but in teams they're almost bottom (almost no one dares to play them in teams).
If I were to take a guess on what Smash 4's tier list will look like down the road I'd say that Smash4 will have the smallest difference in strength when comparing the top to the bottom (doesn't look like Smash4 will have any Melee Foxs or Brawl MetaKnights). And Smash 4 will have the largest percentage of cast playable at a tournament level.
If I were to take a guess on what Smash 4's tier list will look like down the road I'd say that Smash4 will have the smallest difference in strength when comparing the top to the bottom (doesn't look like Smash4 will have any Melee Foxs or Brawl MetaKnights). And Smash 4 will have the largest percentage of cast playable at a tournament level.
Geminosity
Member
Ugh... just finished playing a bunch of matches against a counter-happy shulk. Despite punishing him with throws the majority of times he did it, he still won from it. I need to go back and look at some of the matches I saved to see where I went wrong but that counter in the smash stance just destroys me even on fairly low percentages if I slip up because when I do hit with palutena I unfortunatley hit very hard 
I just want to say, because I need to vent somewhere, the Smash Run mode is a fucking piece of shit.
Far, far too often the stats you raise and chase around the stage searching for have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the final match. The game will grant you a period of extra Attack and Defence boosts, then the final test will be a Race stage or a Tower Climbing stage. Or you end up with 300% Damage, or you're on a stage where you can cheese throws and rack up so many instakills.
The random rules of the final match utterly kill this mode for me. It's not even very fun to hunt for Trophies or Custom Moves in.
Far, far too often the stats you raise and chase around the stage searching for have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the final match. The game will grant you a period of extra Attack and Defence boosts, then the final test will be a Race stage or a Tower Climbing stage. Or you end up with 300% Damage, or you're on a stage where you can cheese throws and rack up so many instakills.
The random rules of the final match utterly kill this mode for me. It's not even very fun to hunt for Trophies or Custom Moves in.
I've been loving Smash Run myself, feel like it has a great "one more time!" feel to it. But I definitely would like to see final match forecasts pop up more often. Like, I've probably played it around 70 times and only got a single forecast, which is kind of lame. And Race in particular (and to a lesser but still very real degree Climb) can really feel unfair, if only because innate character abilities can screw you hard (good luck winning a Race if you're playing as Ganondorf!)
Though my favorite win thus far was probably when I was blatantly outmatched in speed and somehow ended up in first near the end due to the CPUs ramming into too much lava, but they were close enough that I was still screwed. And then... a CPU ended up behind me and literally pushed me over the finish line! Like, they just needed to jump over me, but instead they pushed me to victory!
Sorry to hear you feel that way. Personally, I love Smash Run. For me, getting stat boosts is not about the final event, but rather it's about maximizing the loot I pick up during the map exploration. The more stat boosts I get, the more quickly I can get to the heavy enemies, the more quickly I can defeat them, the longer I can survive, etc. And this means more custom moves, equipment, outfits, trophies, cash, etc. The event at the end is just the cherry on top of a delicious sundae full of cool enemies you fight in a variety of ways across a huge and interesting map with great music. The punchy pinball effect on the enemies makes it so frenetic and fun that I keep coming back.
Incendiary
Banned
I'm starting to get the hang of Robin. Not great with her yet, but I can beat a few people with her.
Also apparently her down taunt uses up a book usage because she threw one away after I taunted.
Also apparently her down taunt uses up a book usage because she threw one away after I taunted.
Hey Gem, would you mind writing a guide on ways to use Palutena? I have such a hard time winning with her. Rushdown ZSS shenanigans are much more my speed, but I love the Palutena character so much that I'd like to be at least somewhat decent with her...Ugh... just finished playing a bunch of matches against a counter-happy shulk. Despite punishing him with throws the majority of times he did it, he still won from it. I need to go back and look at some of the matches I saved to see where I went wrong but that counter in the smash stance just destroys me even on fairly low percentages if I slip up because when I do hit with palutena I unfortunatley hit very hard
So I'm still sitting at a 90% win rate, currently with 19 losses. Of those 19 losses, plus some games with a really good GAF player, 90% of my losses are to turtles. Rosalina, Link, and Dedede to name the main 3, when played correctly as turtles, I have yet to find a way to counter. Even my Mario, which has the cape, still struggles quite a bit. And I'm not talking about the noob turtles who predictably roll away when you get near. They are easy to beat. I'm talking about the "Use projectiles to zone properly, forcing you to come in, then use safe moves (such as jabs) to poke away your health an punishing for getting close."
Any ideas on how to beat this kind of set up?
Any ideas on how to beat this kind of set up?
Incendiary
Banned
After 300 1v1 For Glory matches, I'm barely above 50% win rate. 151 wins, 149 losses. A Smash expert I am not.
I have good news for you:
To give a bit more detail on her usages:
NORMALS
* her jab is solid. It will often beat out a lot of moves including yoshi, sonic and jigglypuff's rolling moves. You can also jab, wait a beat and then grab (if you try to jab then grab immediately it'll annoying go into her extended jab so the pause between them is crucial
* her dash attack and back-air both use her shield and have the properties of both nullifying all projectiles and non-armoured attacks (aka little mac's smash attacks) and having enough KO power to kill at high percentages. Just be aware that the dash attack is very punishable if blocked or evaded due to a slow recovery. It comes out incredibly quick though so you can catch a heck of a lot with it :3
* her forward air is fast and has almost no recovery on landing as long as you don't fast-fall it. It doesn't knock back much but it's good for pecking away at people for percentage, breaking up their flow and generally just getting in their face
* Being above Palutena is the worst possible position for your opponent as you have the tools to answer pretty much every falling strategy. Her up-smash, while sometimes difficult to land due to it's small horizontal range and the vertical range not extending as far as the graphic, still reaches fairly high. Her up-air is very difficult to beat and if it connects it has a fairly good chance of killing at higher percentages. Likewise, her neutral air hits all around her and can catch a lot of people. Her up-tilt lowers her hurtbox and creates a multi-hitting hitbox above her, often catching a lot of attackers before they can hit you and the launch at the end of it can KO. When you learn how to space/aim these and pick the right option you can basically juggle some opponents to death without them ever touching terra-firma again if they dare to the leave the ground
* If you do get into grab, then the down grab, as mentioned by a few folk, is your friend. After bouncing the opponent off the floor there's a few follow up options depending on their percent and how they move during their tumble... it's worth experimenting with all of them to see which is best for what situation: if they control back towards you then you can up smash, if they don't control you can often follow up with jump/short-hop neutral-air or even jump/short-hop up-air (which can kill at 120% or higher on most characters.) If they control away from you then you might need to jump and forward-air them or even chase and dash-attacking them as they land.
* Her smash attacks are really for punishing rather than using straight out. Down-smash punishes people rolling past (again, coral uses this beautifully in the japanese tournament to destroy Lucario) and forward smash has great KO power so if your opponent uses something laggy smack them with it for a kill at mid-high to high percents. Her upsmash on foes either on the ground or close to the ground has huge upwards KO power too so it also works as a punish. It loses a lot of it's knockback higher up the hitbox you go though so don't expect it to KO much against fully aerial targets unless they're at very high percents.
* Her tilts are mostly tools for pre-emptively punishing bad spacing: if an opponent is too far away to roll behind you, for example, you can throw out her forward tilt to catch them when they attempt to approach. Her down tilt isn't too much different though it lowers her hurtbox and recovers a little faster than her forward tilt: I've seen some amusing uses of it to catch aerial attacks from the side (the lowered hitbox cause them to whiff over her head and they landed on the spinning staff) but don't expect to pull that off very often
DEFAULT SPECIALS:
* Auto-reticule: I hate this move but if you're not using customs it's worth learning to use it.
It's main function is to harass your opponent into approaching you, forcing them to jump and interrupting their range game. It will fail to lock on if they're out of range, you don't have line of sight (like they're below the stage rim for example) or, much to my constant annoyance, if they have any intangibility (most commonly dodge roll,spot-dodge and air-dodge.) While it doesn't come out super fast, it's fast enough to interrupt Robin or Samus doing their charge-ups, especially if you keep them on their toes with your reflect so they're not sure when they can safely fire.
A jumping foe can actually be hit with auto reticule if you time it so you lock on as they travel up, that way when they complete the jump's arc and start falling they'll come down into the line of bolts you're sending out. If for some reason they walk at you then you can peg them with auto-reticule repeatedly too until they learn to stop being so oblivious
It's also worthwhile trying it out against a large number of projectiles as it will often stuff them, including all of robin's ranged spells outside of fully charged thunder, and in DeDeDe's case it will actually knock his Gordos back at him at fairly high speed :3
* Reflect: This move is freaking awesome
Be warned, if someone knows you're going to do this, the push-back effect of the field isn't sufficient to stop them dashing through it and you can be punished, however, if they're not running then they won't overcome the backwards force so you can often do some tricky things such as pushing away people who are recovering or trying to standing/walking grab or attack you often causing them to whiff.
* Teleport: Nothing special to remark about this other than it's relatively fast. Don't be afraid to use this on the stage to warp horizontally if you need to escape pressure or if the opponent chases you into the air and you're not confident you can beat their approach you can always warp past them onto the stage :3
* Counter: this move has an incredibly long start-up compared to most other counters in the game but can sometimes get some of the more rush-down based characters off you if you can find the time to fire it off. You won't see this used very often by most Palutena players though as the lengthy start-up and long recovery make it difficult to use and despite some claims that it has the highest knockback magnifier of all counters, I've yet to see any evidence from this in my own usage (I've not only never killed anyone with a direct hit from it, but the knockback on it has often been extremely poor)
Default Palutena in a nutshell:
Basically Palu's entire moveset is situational. In the right situations some of her tools are genuinely great but she doesn't have a sold 'go-to' you can mindlessly spam like a lot of other characters so expect her to demand a lot of effort compared to a lot of the cast. She gets a hell of a lot better with customs but it doesn't hurt to learn her default play all the same, especially if you plan on maining her in any capacity and still play online
~watches people flee in terror from the giant post~
Shamrock7r
Member
Power shield
Geminosity
Member
Thanks emb :3
Some additional notes I forgot about to add to those:
* at higher percentages you'll often have to dash before you jump/short-hop after Palutena's down throw if you want to still connect her combos as most people tend to control away from you.
* I've not tested it myself but apparently her dashing attack doesn't just eat normal attacks and projectiles but it can even destroy a lot of counters. Again, I can't say I've tested this much so try at your own peril
* if someone is shield-grabbing you, a tricky but fun little technique you can do is short-hopping so you'll land behind them and using neutral-air. It'll stay active for the entire jump, spanking them in the head repeatedly and back and you'll still land behind them if spaced correctly.
* I know I mentioned her jab, but it's worth mentioning again: this attack is stupidly solid. You'll find it clanking or even beating stuff you wouldn't expect it to even compete with. I clanked Shulk's forward smash blade extension with it completely unharmed XD
* I keep forgetting that it might not be immediately apparent but auto-reticule actually has a fairly long range: you can get a lock on from about 3/4 the length of a stage away.
Keep in mind though, that while I'm the studious sort and happy to give out advice I'm probably not the best Palutena player. I do ok with her and I've defeated the few other Palutena's I've fought but I'm likely not about to win any tournaments with her any time soon
PadWarrior
Member
Hmm... last few matches whenever I'm next to someone it seems my grab just goes thru them. And it's not because I'm trying to chain grab. Just trying to grab like normal. Lag perhaps?
Spinosaurus
Member
Sure
3093-7162-3807
Geminosity
Member
You sure they're not spot-dodging? (shield and down) Its invincibility frames are also grab immune
PadWarrior
Member
You sure they're not spot-dodging? (shield and down) Its invincibility frames are also grab immune
Didn't look like they were spot dodging.
Cool! I made a room.
I think it's because teams is an entirely different metagame than singles. An entirely separate tier list would need to be created and teams has a ton more match-ups and variables than singles do -- it would be quite a tall order to create a tier list for teams, let alone actual match-up data on team composition and etc. etc.
RadioJoNES64
Banned
Any tips on how to practice that?
No problem. If you haven't already, you should edit that info into the other, giant post too. I don't know much about Palutena so I haven't read everything, but looking over it the information seems really thorough and informative. One day maybe I'll sit down and read it and try to learn her.Thanks emb :3
Some additional notes I forgot about to add to those:
* at higher percentages you'll often have to dash before you jump/short-hop after Palutena's down throw if you want to still connect her combos as most people tend to control away from you.
* I've not tested it myself but apparently her dashing attack doesn't just eat normal attacks and projectiles but it can even destroy a lot of counters. Again, I can't say I've tested this much so try at your own peril
* if someone is shield-grabbing you, a tricky but fun little technique you can do is short-hopping so you'll land behind them and using neutral-air. It'll stay active for the entire jump, spanking them in the head repeatedly and back and you'll still land behind them if spaced correctly.
* I know I mentioned her jab, but it's worth mentioning again: this attack is stupidly solid. You'll find it clanking or even beating stuff you wouldn't expect it to even compete with. I clanked Shulk's forward smash blade extension with it completely unharmed XD
* I keep forgetting that it might not be immediately apparent but auto-reticule actually has a fairly long range: you can get a lock on from about 3/4 the length of a stage away.
Keep in mind though, that while I'm the studious sort and happy to give out advice I'm probably not the best Palutena player. I do ok with her and I've defeated the few other Palutena's I've fought but I'm likely not about to win any tournaments with her any time soon
Hero Prinny
Member
Time to chill for the evening. Anyone up for a few games? FC is 4527-8561-7100. I'll host
add me.
J: 3196 - 4058 - 6482
also anyone else feel free to add me as well
Spinosaurus
Member
The lag is pretty bad. DC'd twice. :< Let's call it quits for now. ggs
Yea the connection between us is not very good it seems, unfortunately. ggs though. Nice Wario. Showed me how annoying his bike can be lol
Dr. Buni
Member
This is dumb.Also apparently her down taunt uses up a book usage because she threw one away after I taunted.
Shamrock7r
Member
Just reps really. When a projectile is coming towards you, don't shield until it is about to help you. Eventually, practice power shielding while running towards the opponent.