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Super Smash Bros. for 3DS |OT3| Little Mac and Cheese
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
- Start date
Karsticles
Member
I'm between going to bed and playing a bit more. You up for a few?GGs, I gotta kill Ness one day.
Sure, you can host, I'm up for it.
RomanceDawn
Member
sounds good! Who are you online?
Karsticles
Member
Hosted.
HawthorneKitty
Sgt. 2nd Class in the Creep Battalion, Waifu Wars
Kevin
OricWindstar
Member
Yeah, good point. I have no idea then. And yeah, I suppose my Mario love is quite transparent.It can't just be a window, because there was one time where I grabbed the mecha koopa after it had been running for ~5 seconds. I wish we could record the AI doing things in training mode so this stuff can get demystified.
I know Mario is your main. I read your posts.
Karsticles
Member
Stop picking bad stages, please. It's driving me nuts.
What is a bad stage to you? I thought Yoshi Island was fairly neutral, but we can just play on FD or battlefield.
Karsticles
Member
It might be neutral for most characters, but it cuts Bowser's specials in half. I can't jump and Fire Breath, and I can't punish with Bowser Bomb. Also, this lag is atrocious. Last one.
Edit: Fuck it. I can't dodge or shield any of this with a half second of delay.
HawthorneKitty
Sgt. 2nd Class in the Creep Battalion, Waifu Wars
I totally can't deep breathe.
Sorry, our connection is bad and we couldn't get in any good games. I didn't realize Yoshi's Island was bad for Bowser, I'll avoid picking in the future if I'm playing against a bowser main. S
Megaman is so satisfying to use, he's definitely my favorite to use in this game but man some of his matchups are impossible against a good player. His playstyle definitely reminds me more like Melee Marth with less range, grab game + projectiles. I have secondaries for Rosalina and other jerks with reflectors but still.
I have secondaries for Rosalina and other jerks with reflectors but still.Karsticles
Member
IMO, Final Destination is the only good stage type. Even Battlefield cuts off so many options. I don't know why people praise it. Everyone just fights to get the bottom flat platform on it anyway.
This is quite a bold statement tbh. Smash wouldn't be half as much fun as it is without platforms.
OricWindstar
Member
I mean, it cuts off some options, but it opens up other ones.
Karsticles
Member
You're not even playing it!
Look, if you play someone like Marth, where all you do is jump forward and swing your sword, it's not a big deal. But Sakurai decided to make some characters gimp on platformed stages. Bowser isn't the only one. Pikachu can't use Thunder in a lot of situations on a platform stage.
It opens up options for the person on the bottom. That's it. Those platforms cut MY CHARACTER IN HALF. That's not a good trade for playability.
OricWindstar
Member
I think the issue is your looking at it from the vantage point of your character. For someone like Mario, I'm at a disadvantage if there aren't platforms because it limits my air game, which is strong point of his character. That's why in tournament play there's counterpicking of stages, because certain stages effect certain characters differently.
Battlefield is great but it definitely is a worse matchup for slower characters with less quick aerial moves much like how FD gives Little Mac and projectile users a slight edge. It doesn't make Battlefield bad. Stop being so salty Karst. ;P (I kid, I kid) I don't personally feel Bowser is that limited on Battlefield though. It's just that some of his worse matchups get even worse on Battlefield.
Also Pikachu is probably better with platforms due to his mobility plus he can thunder from beneath the stage and recover anyway.
Also Pikachu is probably better with platforms due to his mobility plus he can thunder from beneath the stage and recover anyway.
Karsticles
Member
A platformless stage can't be a hindrence. It's the default. Adding obstacles is the change. Japanese tournaments have been doing all FD-style stages. The very fact that counterpicking stages exists shows how silly this is. There should be one standard, and that's it.
This isn't like "oh, it is a little frustrating". I literally cannot approach or kill players on platform stages in many situations where I can otherwise. That's not okay. It really isn't.
Dude, this is like picking black colors on a black stage in Marvel. Drives me goddamn insane. I can't see anything. I will be salty about that. Just like when people pick Wario's stage. Awful, awful stage.
It's not just a matchup issue. Example of something that happened against Neki earlier: I block an attack, and punish with Bowser Bomb. My opponent is at a high %. On a FD stage, this will kill. On Battlefield, Bowser instead hits the opponent with hits horns, and then leaps up to the next platform, whiffing the attack. Bowser has NO EQUIVALENT PUNISH OPTION to replace this. He literally loses the ability to kill on his punishes as a result of this stage. That's a huge difference. Again, it's not okay.
KittenMaster
Member
I swear it is impossible for me to win anymore. A lot of people have 80% win rate but I struggle to get back to 48%.
Gotta disagree. Bowser/Little Mac should camp on the bottom and play more of a dodge/shield/counterhit game than going in. It's different and a bit weaker but I don't feel it nullifies their entire gameplan.
If you played Melee playing against someone like Falco on FD is a pain since he has a strong laser game. I'd much prefer a different stage with some platforms. Platforms gives people a different approach.
OricWindstar
Member
It's not the standard. There is no standard in Smash Bros. I guess you could make the argument that it is in this game based on the Omega option, but the first Smash Bros. game didn't even have a Final Destination-style stage.
I'm totally not the guy to go deep into this debate because I've not been trying to be a competitive player for long, but a huge part of Smash Bros. is different stage types and knowing how to use characters in all of them. Is Bowser at a disadvantage on Battlefield vs FD? Yes. But a floaty character like Jiggypuff or any other characters that have an aerial-centric play style are also limited when you take away platforms.
Of course, another big part of Smash Bros. is being able to play how you want, so you're totally entitled to playing FD only. I just personally find it limiting to many characters just like you find Battlefield/Yoshi's Island limiting to Bowser.
RomanceDawn
Member
Kevin good games! That last one had me cracking up!
Thanks for putting up with my Diddy, I really don't know what I'm doing yet!
Professor Beef
Banned
Yeah, I hate having to fight projectile characters on flat stages. Platform stages are just something you have to work around with your warcrate.
He still has ftilt or maybe dtilt to setup an edge guard option. It's a weaker option but Bowser still kills rather early compared to most characters despite the different stage.
The stages are a part of the metagame.
Karsticles
Member
Yes, it is the standard. Sakurai actually went out of his way to say "here are FD stages - this is for competitve play". Unless you think you know something Sakurai doesn't, 100% flat stages without platforms is the intended competitive standard by the game's creator.
Dude, this is like picking black colors on a black stage in Marvel. Drives me goddamn insane. I can't see anything. I will be salty about that. Just like when people pick Wario's stage. Awful, awful stage.
It's not just a matchup issue. Example of something that happened against Neki earlier: I block an attack, and punish with Bowser Bomb. My opponent is at a high %. On a FD stage, this will kill. On Battlefield, Bowser instead hits the opponent with hits horns, and then leaps up to the next platform, whiffing the attack. Bowser has NO EQUIVALENT PUNISH OPTION to replace this. He literally loses the ability to kill on his punishes as a result of this stage. That's a huge difference. Again, it's not okay.
Both of those moves have significantly longer startup than Down.B. They cannot punish in a lot of situations.
Also, Bowser doesn't kill until ~150% unless he uses a high-risk move like his forward smash, or gets a successful dtilt at a ledge (~110% for that). Rosalina KOs Bowser with an utilt (I think?) at 110%.
This honestly sounds sarcastic. You're joking, right?
You know how many characters experience the same thing on FD? Fuck that stage. The lack of platforms cuts my character in half! More characters struggle on FD than they do on Battlefield or Yoshi's.
I'm not even sure where you're getting this from. I've found a ton of success with Bowser on Battlefield. More than on FD, honestly.
and no other characters have stage specific punishes right
BAN ALL THE STAGES EXCEPT THE ONE WHERE MY CHARACTER CAN GET SUPER SITUATIONAL PUNISHES IN
KittenMaster
Member
FD adds projectiles as obstacles and a hindrance.
Yeah I'd still rather play with Battlefield than FD as Bowser outside of a few matchups just due to projectiles. He loses a better kill option but it just means you have to make better reads and have more of an off stage game. It's not as big of an issue you're making it out to be.
Karsticles
Member
I am completely serious.
Sakurai set FD-type stages as the competitive standard. I think that's clear.
I am "getting this from" 766 1v1 battles with Bowser that I've done so far.
Dude, the projectiles are easier to avoid in FD. Battlefield makes it harder.
OricWindstar
Member
I'm not claiming to speak for Sakurai, I'm just talking about my own personal views that some others share.
Alrighty, let's go with that though, as you're correct, Sakurai did introduce FD variants to help with competitive play. Since when has the competitive community ever played just by Sakurai's standards? I'm the last person you'll hear saying "casuals fucking suck! competitive/melee only!!!", but the entire Melee scene is built around making the game do things it wasn't originally designed to do. If Sakurai only wants competitive battles on FD, then I can say I don't want to play the game the way he wants me too. But as he gives us so many customization options, I doubt he cares how I play competitively.
Also, the Invitiational Finals (something Sakurai was involved with) was on Battlefield, so I'm not sure he hates it for competitive play quite as much as you think. Again though, I'm not saying you're playing Smash wrong. You can play it however you want and that's a-ok.
I respectively disagree with this.
It can't just be a window, because there was one time where I grabbed the mecha koopa after it had been running for ~5 seconds. I wish we could record the AI doing things in training mode so this stuff can get demystified.
I know Mario is your main. I read your posts.
Heh. If you want to experiment with that, I'm up for it. Want to make a room?
Karsticles
Member
You mean the E3 invitational that was 4 player FFA with items on?
Anyway, I'm not talking about the competitive community. You asked what made FD the "default", and I told you that Sakurai's decision makes it the default. Fin.
Another time, sir! Wife time.
The one where they changed it to 1v1 no items for the finals, yes.
And yeah, it depends on the projectile/if the player you're playing against knows how to camp well. It's nowhere near as bad as previous games due to Bowser's buffs but it's still there.
I'm with the rest here. For certain characters, flat stages are a clear disadvantage and a massive hindrance when your opponent is fast/keeps away/spams projectiles (Sheik, Mega Man), or when your opponent is a skilled Little Mac. I've had a lot of trouble with aggressive, grabby Ganondorf and Captain Falcon players.
I main G&W, my best character by far... and it's crazy how much easier certain match-ups become when I switch to Bowser Jr. or Duck Hunt Dog (and I'm honestly not as good with these two so it confirms stage bias for me). DHD himself has a pretty rough time against rushdown characters on a completely flat stage.
I main G&W, my best character by far... and it's crazy how much easier certain match-ups become when I switch to Bowser Jr. or Duck Hunt Dog (and I'm honestly not as good with these two so it confirms stage bias for me). DHD himself has a pretty rough time against rushdown characters on a completely flat stage.
OricWindstar
Member
Yeah, I'm talking about the final match, which had no items on and was designed to be more tournament minded.
Not sure why you're being so aggressive and sarcastic, dude. I'm just trying to defend my point, I mean nothing personal.
Professor Beef
Banned
He also tried to remove the competitiveness of this series once before. I'd rather trust the established community.
OricWindstar
Member
Haha, I love it!
Professor Beef
Banned
I mean, your other option Karst is to adapt. If you find the stage so limiting, then practice on it or train with another character. That's how everyone else who plays competitively does it.
I only hate it because of the music.
I only hate it because of the music.
MrSaturn99
Member
I only hate it because of the music.
why would you ever hate yoshi's island music
donut lifts is beautiful
I only hate it because of the music.
The music and visuals are the best part!
It's still my least favorite legal stage from a competitive standpoint though.
I'm reading this post over and over and I really don't get what's going on here. Of course match ups and applications of character kit are going to change based on what the stage layout is like. If one option stops being good, clearly that means it's time to invest in other aspects of your character's kit.
Sakurai doesn't set the default competitive stages. The community does. You're deluding yourself. I don't think you fundamentally understand why different stages even exist in Smash, which is a very odd position to argue from.
SenorArdilla
Member
Japan only used 3 stages competitively in Brawl (Final Destination, Battlefield, and Smashville). Which makes Sakurai's decision to include a FD mode for each stage more understandable.
OricWindstar
Member
Oh wow, I didn't even know they used Smashville. I thought it was pretty strictly just FD.