Is that you Boogie?
Supporters, protesters clash at Berkeley Trump rally
- Thread starter Vyer
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Is that you Boogie?
There's so much wrong in this image....
...this picture hurts my brain. smdh
It was a hypothethical scenario that shows how much I disgust violence in any form. Like I said, even if I super badly wanted to punch a nazi, in the stomach, I would have problems doing it.
In what universe does America exist that doesn't have white supremacist in ever facet of life? The narrative have been here from day one.
Violence in your everday context =//= people mobilizing and being disrupt so their voices can be heard en masse.
Stop trying to equate the two things as if the very definitions of viooence are the same.
Context matters.
Shai-Tan
Banned
this is an obvious false dilemma but continue promoting political violence that only a minority of complete morons participate in
The only thing these threads prove is that there are a bunch of people who think it's the suppressed job to get the racists to look at them in a different light. We have to prove to them that we're human.
And if we don't it's our fault that there are more coming to hate us. Taking every bit of blame off of the ones who pass on HATE to their kids and neighbors.
And if we don't it's our fault that there are more coming to hate us. Taking every bit of blame off of the ones who pass on HATE to their kids and neighbors.
Aaronrules380
Member
The neonazis are awful. The neo nazis also aren't here as a general rule because of Neogaf's moderation so addressing them is fairly pointless. And I still don't see how inciting violence in this scenario was the best solution (Though it isn't clear based on the article which side fought first).
The republican pigfuckers in Washington need to address this, and soon. I understand they are using these diversions to fleece America in order to bolster the coffers of the 1%, but these current diversions (as opposed to wedge issues of years past such as gay marriage or Terri Schiavo) may actually destabilize our country.
I not pro violence or against it really, it just apart of human life. And sometimes things are worth fighting for.
Alright, you don't have to use violence. I don't like violence either. See, we already agree.
So stop criticizing others who are willing to go that route because the problem isn't being solved other ways. There have been three hundred years of unrestricted racism against these groups in America, and it STILL has not been solved. If you're wondering why some people are fed up and are OK with white supremacists (who advocate for genocide) getting clipped by a fist now and then, that's why. Violence does work sometimes.
America has no interest fixing these problems. Institutional racism is as severe now as it has been since the 60s. School Segregation is worse now then at any point since the 60s.
When the picture a country paints is one where your words have no value, people turn to the other thing. Trump won at least in part because of wishy washy folks normalizing this pattern of hate to such an extent that nothing he did was a surprise anymore, and people suddenly became OK with a racist as long as he was pretending to bring back coal jobs.
You don't have to use violence. I applaud you for that stance, genuinely. But going into topic after topic getting angry that others have a red line when it comes to literal Nazi's? What does that accomplish? How about spending your energy criticizing the literal Nazi's instead?
I think I can understand you on this level.
I don't think I could fight either. But as an American (if you are), what do you think the revolutionists should have done?
I guess what I mean to say is, sometimes people are unreasonable and fights are inevitable, especially if they would otherwise fight back.
What do you think a white supremacist is?
Aaronrules380
Member
Yeah, I know. That doesn't change the fact that inciting violence only perpetuates and strengthens that narrative, right or wrong
Pepsi ad was a really bad idea wasn't it lol
I appreciate the lack of bystander effect.
Also, can we stop acting like violence in every context supports the ideology of the person violence is being leveled against? We're all adults. When we cheer on self-defense stories, historical WWII accounts of Allies fucking up the Axis (You know, that era where Nazism got its ass kicked the first time,) and take a second to remember Stonewall and the slave revolts, we know this idea is a crock of shit. So stop acting brand new when it comes to modern day racism and white supremacy.
Where is the false dilemma?
And you can continue not talking to racists while telling me to do the same.
Where is the false dilemma?
And you can continue not talking to racists while telling me to do the same.
HiredN00bs
Banned
It isn't about assigning blame. It's about developing an effective solution to the problem. Some people think jumping to violence is effective. Others disagree. The ones who are quick to advocate violence accuse the others of being complicit.
Aaronrules380
Member
It's almost like different situations need different responses. Violence works at expelling foreign powers. It works in helping an oppressed majority win rights against an elite minority. I'm just not convinced that violence does anything in this situation, and have yet to see a sound arguement for how exactly violence will help. I will acknowledge that something needs to be done. I will acknowledge that we've had a lot of failures in the past 100 years. It's an incredibly hard problem to solve. But if you're proposing to solve it through violence, please give the logic of how violence will actually work in this situation
Secret Fawful
Member
Pretty sure Malcolm X said this was gonna happen.
Melkezadek
Member
I can't help but feel like the people who try to push the "just talk to them" approach aren't one of the groups who are targeted by the rhetoric of white supremacists.
It's very easy to talk down to folks when you aren't hated for the color of your skin. You're allowed to leave that as a "difference of values/political" and move on. We don't have that luxury.
It's very easy to talk down to folks when you aren't hated for the color of your skin. You're allowed to leave that as a "difference of values/political" and move on. We don't have that luxury.
I want someone to break down how to have a rational discourse with an individual like this. Step by step instructions.
I'm, as a coward, won't speculate on the usefulness of violence particularly because I wouldn't partake in it. And perhaps devil's advocate (since this thread has a majority opinion) is useful for the sake of brainstorming other solutions, but the argument is not going in that direction.
Instead, the devil's advocate, or merely the opinion of being non-violent against white supremacists, is too comparable with the very same view that gave them additional supports at this very protest. The bystanders who don't want to get involved, and mark those rioting against as the bad guys in the story.
UncleSporky
Member
My question is, how far is actually too far when it comes to this particular forum?
Like we know that being a supporter or advocate of violence is a valid viewpoint, at this point. No one is disputing that. Would it cross the line if it moved into actual planning of violence?
Like we know that being a supporter or advocate of violence is a valid viewpoint, at this point. No one is disputing that. Would it cross the line if it moved into actual planning of violence?
Aaronrules380
Member
Yeah. This is why I hate discussions like this. Anyone who disagrees with a certain set of methods is now complicit and evil and doesn't actually care about the cause. Rational discourse pretty much always takes a backseat to extremely emotional responses. And I get it, these situations are extremely personal and emotional for a lot of people. But I still think emotions place is to determine the goal, not the methods
Did any of the official speakers at the event mention anything about genocide or white supremacy? I didn't hear any of that in the stream I watched. But please, let me know if I'm wrong.
Black have disproving white rasict how 100s of years and we are still looked down upon
I don't think you're complicit, I just think your way has failed and that's why people are turning to violence on occasion. Nobody is going to continue to always wait for moderates to talk to people advocating genocide of black people and jews.
Nobody has just JUMPED to violence. This is the result of hundreds of years of this shit.
EdibleKnife
Member
It also should be the job of those people to change things rather than putting the burden on minorities. "Talk to them" people always seem to mention their one racist aunt or uncle and how they're actually a good person, seemly trying to convince us to treat them better rather that talking to them themselves since they're so certain talking works.
There is no rational actor in the alt-right unless you think white supremacy is a rational message.
Are you sure? If we were better debaters than racism would've been solved by now. Obviously.
That's the thing. From even a basic glance at this thread I can tell that the only thing "just talk to them" has done is put the idea of this being a PR war in their heads, I see a bunch of recommendations to try and look as dignified as possible and for others to false flag and confuse.
They understand completely that no one on will ever see the video of them saying that "trannies aren't human" but that people will see the video of a well dressed man being hit with a bat.
I'm all about peace and love and kindness...
But this new crop of Nazis have shown what they can and will do and have gained power in the US. That's fucking terrifying.
So yeah, punch some fucking Nazis. Maybe they'll think about their actions. If not, I guess we'll teeter ever closer to another civil war.
But this new crop of Nazis have shown what they can and will do and have gained power in the US. That's fucking terrifying.
So yeah, punch some fucking Nazis. Maybe they'll think about their actions. If not, I guess we'll teeter ever closer to another civil war.
Aaronrules380
Member
That's fair. The neo nazis are definitely more in the wrong because their beliefs are abhorrent and disgusting. Still I think the fact that the enemy is more wrong does not necessarily absolve the other side of doing bad things. The ends don't always justify the means and all that.
And as a counter: If the view that the people who started the violence is in the wrong is so powerful that it's helping the neo nazis gain support, then maybe that shows that this method isn't as effective as some people think
EdibleKnife
Member
If they surround themselves with people throwing up the Hitler salute and treat it as normal/don't address it and try to remove it from their ranks, then they don't deserve to be distinguished from the white supremacists they're gladly sharing space with
When you tell us that violence only creates more racists and they should talked to it is doing exactly that. When you condemn those who fight you are telling them their way isn't good enough.
On the flip side racists use every tool available to them to spread their racists bs. That goes from recruiting those who are lost instead of educating to getting in power and passing laws that suppress our voice. That goes for your now president advocating and failing to condemn racist acts like Roof. That goes for racists making millions off of a false drug war that enables them to lock us up at a alarming rate compared to those of their creed.
So when you come in and tell us violence isn't the way. Stop it. Because they are using everything in their power to do their bidding.
When it wasn't convenient for them to hang us from trees in the streets they switched up the game and started for profit prisons with free labor.
If you look at my post and have a come back...then you yourself do not condemn their actions. You still look at the suppressed to fight fair when they don't at every corner.
Isn't this the same argument used against the anarchist that tend to show up at PNW protests?
They are grown ass, fully cognizant, adults, they know exactly what they're doing. If they are part of a rally and arent fully aware of what exactly they're supporting, they have far more problens to worry about than being labelled a white supremacist.
EdibleKnife
Member
You know what? It is. And I fully accept it as a critique because I'd rather be associated with anarchist than Nazis and white supremacists
Aaronrules380
Member
My disagreement stems from the idea that non-violent actions are a single method. There are countless (infinite even) ways to try and attain a solution without resorting to violence. And I recognize there are times when violence is the best solution (Apartheid South Africa for instance), but I think there needs to be logic behind the move as well. How do you expect violence to help in a situation is important in my mind because it is an extreme measure.
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
That's the point this forum has gotten to. As far as many are concerned if you support Trump you are by definition a white supremacist.
It's not a helpful mindset to have. Yes, there is a real white supremacist or, more commonly, white nationalist wing supporting him. Those people are not even worth engaging with. There are also just a lot of idiots who probably could be reasoned with in the right way.
If you seriously think that every single one of the millions who voted for him are irredeemable racists then I don't know why you would bother to continue trying. That reality would be so hopeless you might as well just go live in the fucking forest or something. It is obviously not true.
I fucking hate Trump, before any of you try to misconstrue my position. Go have a look at the post that got me banned a couple weeks ago if you don't believe it. But people are not approaching any of this rationally, and this site is becoming unpleasant to read even when you're on the right side.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
These are the folks you're dealing with.
So which mod is assigned to be my jewish master btw?
lol..
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