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[Aaronrules380]

Sure, of course. It's better if there is a method to the madness. But minorities have been attempting to change this shit for three hundred years and they're still dealing with it. They've tried the pure politics route, they've tried the protests, they've tried riots. They've tried everything. And the problem persists, and now with Trump in power it is getting exponentially worse.

Are you really surprised that now the solution is "you know what? I'm not going to allow that person to advocate for my death without my fist going through his mouth."

Let's even agree that violence may not be the "solution" in this case. Who cares? Maybe some people just need the release of punching a literal Nazi in the face when they advocate for genocide. Maybe that is worth it in of itself, when this country is currently what it is. Why complain about that when you can come into this thread and focus on how to stop white supremacists from pushing their ideology?

If you disagree with the violence here, then discuss proactive measures you'd take to try to stop this. That's far more constructive than scolding people who have had enough after decades of not being listened to.

I'm not surprised some people resort to violence. That doesn't make it a good answer. And while I'm not at the same level of targets as black or other more visible minorities for American Neonazis, I am Jewish, they hate me and my people and would love for us all of us to die as well. The desire for short-term release can be incredibly harmful for the actual long term solutions.

I think in terms of a situation like this where the neonazis had a rally, drowning them out via non-violent protest and not letting their message be heard (while simultaneously showing that more people are not ok with that message than are ok) is a far more effective means of fighting back then straight up attacking the neo nazis. And I'm aware people already do this and that this alone won't be enough to change anything. A wide range of actions need to be taken in order to solve the problem, and it will take a concerted effort and a really long time to get anywhere near the end goal. Now if as you claim the ones who incited violence were the neo nazis (the article didn't make it clear to me), than self defense is definitely not out of the question. But inciting violence at something like this just gives them another tool they can use to spin a narrative, even if that narrative is twisted and filled with lies and deceit

 

[Gordon Shumway]

You don't see the connection here? No? Not at all? You don't see a problem here?

Anyway, nobody here is saying "punch every republican voter in the face!". This is a subset of extremists. You won't be able to talk to somebody who uses the Hitler salute.

Have you tried high fiving them?

 

[Aaronrules380]

You don't see the connection here? No? Not at all? You don't see a problem here?

Anyway, nobody here is saying "punch every republican voter in the face!". This is a subset of extremists. You won't be able to talk to somebody who uses the Hitler salute.

Of course I see the connection and the problem. The root cause is the Nazis. But that doesn't mean that choosing the wrong methods to fight the nazis couldn't have exacerbated the problem. And I never said the solution was to talk to the people at these rallies. For the most part, that's going to be extremely ineffective. But giving them ammunition is also dangerous because it helps them twist more people to their cause.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Have you tried high fiving them?

Yes, but I missed and landed in their face. Woops

Spoiler

I actually never punched somebody cause I live in Austria, so I would just report those idiots since shit like that is against the law here.

 

[HStallion]

I wonder if all the people who say just talk to Nazis have ever actually tried that themselves, especially at a rally where they are pumped up already and looking for a confrontation. Like go ahead and do that for me and let me know just how successful that is for you.

 

[Carl2291]

Civil war in America being run and won by 4chan trolls.

 

[Amir0x]

I'm not surprised some people resort to violence. That doesn't make it a good answer. And while I'm not at the same level of targets as black or other more visible minorities for American Neonazis, I am Jewish, they hate me and my people and would love for us all of us to die as well. The desire for short-term release can be incredibly harmful for the actual long term solutions.

I think in terms of a situation like this where the neonazis had a rally, drowning them out via non-violent protest and not letting their message be heard (while simultaneously showing that more people are not ok with that message than are ok) is a far more effective means of fighting back then straight up attacking the neo nazis. And I'm aware people already do this and that this alone won't be enough to change anything. A wide range of actions need to be taken in order to solve the problem, and it will take a concerted effort and a really long time to get anywhere near the end goal. Now if as you claim the ones who incited violence were the neo nazis (the article didn't make it clear to me), than self defense is definitely not out of the question. But inciting violence at something like this just gives them another tool they can use to spin a narrative, even if that narrative is twisted and filled with lies and deceit

They didn't incite violence, the neo Nazi's did. They did rightfully fight back however.

Anyway, the problem is that every conceivable range of actions has been taken already, and they have all led to the same problem. I agree we gotta keep trying no matter how hard, but in the interim when some people decide to resort to violence I'm not going to criticize them. And I'm going to smile when a Nazi gets punched in the face, because they fucking deserve it

 

[Aaronrules380]

I wonder if all the people who say just talk to Nazis have ever actually tried that themselves, especially at a rally where they are pumped up already and looking for a confrontation. Like go ahead and do that for me and let me know just how successful that is for you.

Just because the solution isn't to talk to them doesn't mean that inciting violence against them is the solution either

 

[The Dink]

Civil war in America being run and won by 4chan trolls.

Pretty much this. Scary times.

 

[Aaronrules380]

They didn't incite violence, the neo Nazi's did. They did rightfully fight back however.

Anyway, the problem is that every conceivable range of actions has been taken already, and they have all led to the same problem. I agree we gotta keep trying no matter how hard, but in the interim when some people decide to resort to violence I'm not going to criticize them. And I'm going to smile when a Nazi gets punched in the face, because they fucking deserve it

And that's fair, and wasn't clear to me in this article (in regards to who started the violence). And I totally get why people turn to violence. But if I feel an action is going to hurt more than it helps in the long run, I'll absolutely criticize it even if I can see where they're coming from. I get why people punch nazis. I get why people don't criticize or even smile about that. But I think letting emotions determine how you act to that extent is still problematic.

 

[HStallion]

Just because the solution isn't to talk to them doesn't mean that inciting violence against them is the solution either

By all means go talk to them and when they spit in your face and zeig Heil, you let me know when it starts sinking in that what they're doing is wrong.

 

[Aaronrules380]

By all means go talk to them and when they spit in your face and zeig Heil, you let me know when it starts sinking in that what they're doing is wrong.

I just said talking to them isn't the solution either so I'm not sure what you're trying to say to me

 

[Amir0x]

And that's fair, and wasn't clear to me in this article (in regards to who started the violence). And I totally get why people turn to violence. But if I feel an action is going to hurt more than it helps in the long run, I'll absolutely criticize it even if I can see where they're coming from. I get why people punch nazis. I get why people don't criticize or even smile about that. But I think letting emotions determine how you act to that extent is still problematic.

Punching Richard Spencer in the face got him to cancel his Women's March appearance and he has made less appearances since then and has to spend more of his own cash on getaway cars and security.

Was punching him hurting more than it helped?

 

[Aaronrules380]

Punching Richard Spencer in the face got him to cancel his Women's March appearance and he has made less appearances since then and has to spend more of his own cash on getaway cars and security.

Was punching him hurting more than it helped?

I think public appearances are the least of our worries in the modern day and age, where online recruitment is far more relevant

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Well today is the 72 anniversary of the red army marching into Berlin so today would be a good day for that.

*grabs brass knuckles*

 

[Nepenthe]

Just because the solution isn't to talk to them doesn't mean that inciting violence against them is the solution either

Okay then. So what is the solution? Ignoring them allows them to fester, and we can't outlaw Nazis in practice because free speech. Talking to them does nothing because they're not interested in sincere debate, and violence apparently doesn't work because that victimizes them.

What the hell else is left to do?

The left has hilariously succeeded in creating an unwinnable scenario by shooting down every single solution to the Nazi problem on the basis of "inadvertent legitimization," usually on the basis of agreeing to terms outlined by the goddamn Nazis in the first place.

We might as well roll over for them at this point.

 

[HStallion]

I just said talking to them isn't the solution either so I'm not sure what you're trying to say to me

That most reasonable solutions don't work with incredibly unreasonable people. These aren't people that listen to what's sensible or intelligent. Their entire mindset is based on the extreme opposite mentality.

 

[ThisGuy]

Just because the solution isn't to talk to them doesn't mean that inciting violence against them is the solution either

Yes it is. Violence is literally the answer. Free speech doesn't work. Its unbelievably irresponsible to let these people grow a following. We're talking about peoples lives. Nazis won't hesitate, why should those that oppose them?

Peace does not work sometimes.

 

[UncleSporky]

Punching Richard Spencer in the face got him to cancel his Women's March appearance and he has made less appearances since then and has to spend more of his own cash on getaway cars and security.

Was punching him hurting more than it helped?

Did it enrage and galvanize the assholes behind him to take part in events like the one this thread is about?

Maybe the guy who punched the girl in the face thought, "hey, punching the other side in the face is ok now, all bets are off."

 

[Aaronrules380]

Okay then. So what is the solution? Ignoring them allows them to fester, and we can't outlaw Nazis in practice because free speech. Talking to them does nothing because they're not interested in sincere debate, and violence apparently doesn't work because that victimizes them.

What the hell else is left to do?

The left has hilariously succeeded in creating an unwinnable scenario by shooting down every single solution to the Nazi problem on the basis of "inadvertent legitimization," usually on the basis of agreeing to terms outlined by the goddamn Nazis in the first place.

We might as well roll over for them at this point.

I think a big part of the solution is to target there ability to recruit more people to their cause. Rather than focusing on those who are already neo nazis, it's better to prevent them from gaining more Neo nazis

 

[Amir0x]

Did it enrage and galvanize the assholes behind him to take part in events like the one this thread is about?

Maybe the guy who punched the girl in the face thought, "hey, punching the other side in the face is ok now, all bets are off."

No, Milo's speech getting shut down is what galvanized them. It was literally the rallying cry behind the alt-right protests here.

 

[Gallbaro]

Yes it is. Violence is literally the answer. Free speech doesn't work. Its unbelievably irresponsible to let these people grow a following. We're talking about peoples lives. Nazis won't hesitate, why should those that oppose them?

Peace does not work sometimes.

I know you are typing in context, but "Hail ThisGuy!"

 

[Nepenthe]

I think a big part of the solution is to target there ability to recruit more people to their cause. Rather than focusing on those who are already neo nazis, it's better to prevent them from gaining more Neo nazis

How do you target recruitment efforts without infringing on free speech?

 

[HStallion]

Double post

 

[ThisGuy]

I know you are typing in context, but "Hail ThisGuy!"

So you're cool with hate speech? Unless I'm missing something.

Oh, I should have put hate speech instead of free speech lol.

 

[theWB27]

I think public appearances are the least of our worries in the modern day and age, where online recruitment is far more relevant

You don't think it's wild you want people to come up with ways to fight against this despite literal history telling you that there comes a point where that is the only recourse.

While racists are able to use whatever method they deem worthy to spread hate you're admonishing those who think racism is abhorrent to come up with impossible ways to combat that?

 

[Aaronrules380]

How do you target recruitment efforts without infringing on free speech?

I never said we shouldn't try and find ways to implement better hate speech laws. Additionally, I think a big part of targeting recruitment is denying them ammunition and also working to contact the same people they're trying to radicalize before they can do so. There are a huge number of ways to target their recruitment methods. This doesn't include violently attacking them

 

[UncleSporky]

No, Milo's speech getting shut down is what galvanized them. It was literally the rallying cry behind the alt-right protests here.

You don't think him being punched had anything to do with the girl getting punched? That coward was really ill-informed of the news and just decided to do it on his own, and not based on a Nazi getting punched in the face, leading to a lot of public discussion about people getting punched in the face?

 

[EatinOlives]

Did it enrage and galvanize the assholes behind him to take part in events like the one this thread is about?

Maybe the guy who punched the girl in the face thought, "hey, punching the other side in the face is ok now, all bets are off."

Lol, so now it's liberals' fault for this clash. Please tell us more about how everything is truly the liberals' fault if you squint your eyes real hard.

 

[adamsappel]

 

[LegendofJoe]

Who was then abused by our government, shot and today is forced to share his day of remembrance in some areas with that of a confederate general for the sake of "equality". Violence sure as shit solved the civil rights problem for white supremacists.

I don't like it, but sometimes violence is necessary to remove evil from this world. Violence in self-defense is no vice. The people who would be the targets of the genocide advocated by the alt-right have a moral right to fight back.

For example does anyone honestly think the south would have outlawed slavery on their own? Violence was necessary to put an end to that evil.

 

[Ronin]

This is amazing.

 

[UncleSporky]

Lol, so now it's liberals' fault for this clash. Please tell us more about how everything is truly the liberals' fault if you squint your eyes real hard.

I didn't say anything was liberals' fault, or implied that anything else was either. I answered a specific question:

Was punching him hurting more than it helped?

 

[HStallion]

You don't think him being punched had anything to do with the girl getting punched? That coward was really ill-informed of the news and just decided to do it on his own, and not based on a Nazi getting punched in the face, leading to a lot of public discussion about people getting punched in the face?

They're Nazis! Their entire modus operandi is destroy inferior minorities!

 

[Puck Beaverton]

He also killed them.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Sure are a lot of Neville Chamberlain's here huh?

 

[Aaronrules380]

I don't like it, but sometimes violence is necessary to remove evil from this world. Violence in self-defense is no vice. The people who would be the targets of the genocide advocated by the alt-right have a moral right to fight back.

For example does anyone honestly think the south would have outlawed slavery on their own? Violence was necessary to put an end to that evil.

Violence is sometimes necessary. That doesn't mean it's always necessary, or that it's always the best answer, or that it's always helpful

 

[Amir0x]

You don't think him being punched had anything to do with the girl getting punched? That coward was really ill-informed of the news and just decided to do it on his own, and not based on a Nazi getting punched in the face, leading to a lot of public discussion about people getting punched in the face?

I don't know if Nathan Damigo, a well known neo Nazi organizer, was at all motivated by Richard Spencer (since I was not in his mind), but I know they WERE motivated by the fact Milo's speech was shut down and were calling for violence because of that and did not reference Richard Spencer's punch in any of the major calls to action.

The reality is the punch worked on Richard Spencer. And in all likelihood, Nathan Damigo is about to face tons of problems both legally and at CSU Stanislaus for his behavior. Which I'd call working as well.

 

[SoRuffShoNuff]

Stop trying to make yourself a victim.

Victim? I'm not a victim of anything. I know going in to any discussion on foreign policy that any and all support for military action will elicit a Trump supporter response. Which is strange because of the two candidates Hillary was the hawk, not Trump. But whatever, semantics never gets in the way of outrage.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Did he immediately bust her head open, too?

I've never heard antifa before and the search results make me not believe you.

To be fair... I am familiar with antifa tactics, and yes, they openly resort to violent tactics all the time, so I almost believed it at first. Then I read the rest of his post where he claims it's a "free speech" rally (LOL) and saw that he was spouting bullshit. But it's true that antifas have no problem with violence. I don't have a problem with that when it's aimed at the right targets (e.g. actual nazis like these shitstains), though, only when they use those tactics to shut down harmless things like metal festivals.

By punching them in the face? I don't see how that will stop them.

Being punched in the face made Richard Spencer real quiet for a while, actually. He even attributed his laying low to being punched.

It's a myth that violence never works. It's not always the right method, and it's not always ethical or justified, but you know, sometimes, it's not-so-surprisingly efficient.

You deny the fact that for a full month these alt right douchebags were using this fake "free speech" cover to get revenge on what happened to Milo's speech months ago, intentionally advocating that people dress up as Antifa Black Bloc to try to pretend they were inciting shit:

[pics]

And there we have it. Thanks for the receipts, Amir.

 

[Gallbaro]

Lol, so now it's liberals' fault for this clash. Please tell us more about how everything is truly the liberals' fault if you squint your eyes real hard.

The Berkeley community does suck and hides an immense of of classism

Spoiler

a.k.a racism

behind its outwardly liberal traditions. Now that the community is wealthy, they don't exactly go out of their way to help to lower classes in their own back yard.

Spoiler

I have a huge hard on for the hypocrites in communities like Berkeley.

But I don't think anyone can say this event was not organized as a means to generate a fight.

 

[Nightbird]

So much for the tolerant left

Spoiler

It's a joke btw

 

[LookAtMeGo]

One side is defending their right to spread hate. The other side is defending their right to exist.

 

[Amir0x]

And there we have it. Thanks for the receipts, Amir.

No problem. By the way, I see another similarity with the alt right strategy in Scrooged. The second he was called out with receipts, he disappeared

 

[Derwind]

One side is defending their right to spread hate. The other side is defending their right to exist.

But please remember, hug the man that wants to see you and generations of you either dead or oppressed.

 

[Nepenthe]

I never said we shouldn't try and find ways to implement better hate speech laws. Additionally, I think a big part of targeting recruitment is denying them ammunition and also working to contact the same people they're trying to radicalize before they can do so. There are a huge number of ways to target their recruitment methods. This doesn't include violently attacking them

The issue with online recruitment is that online activity is generally anonymous. You're going to have to then put the infrastructure and code of conduct for individuals and companies to pass this kind of stuff along to intervention agencies and law enforcement, and good luck with that in an era where basically everyone is against the idea of mass surveillance, curtailing free speech, and in general anything allowing for the ability for white racists to actually be punished to the fullest extent of the law. Also good luck with that when people can just make their own websites, forums, and chat rooms outside of most prying eyes.

Also, what does this do for Nazi recruitment and propagation in the real world, particularly under the liberal ideal that every single idea deserves a platform for debate and thus we should cheer on people like Richard Spencer speaking at schools where people are impressionable?

The problem I see is that the resurgence of Nazism we're seeing is ultimately a symptom of the centuries'-long cultural issue of America and western Europe being in the bed of white supremacy and how white people are almost all but guaranteed to backlash against strides made towards racial, sexual, and gender equity at some point. You're not going to defeat Nazism until you defeat white supremacy. But as is the case in this thread, we've got people in here who are upset that people call Trump supporters and their sympathizers out as people who- inadvertently or otherwise- supported white supremacy, because this is an ethical and moral battle and no one wants to be the bad guy, real world results be damned.

Does this mean that violence is the only way to help? No. But acting like it's a last resort solution when minorities have long since been in a situation of last resort is the kind of milquetoast moderate ideals that even MLK Jr. got fucking sick of.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

You don't think him being punched had anything to do with the girl getting punched? That coward was really ill-informed of the news and just decided to do it on his own, and not based on a Nazi getting punched in the face, leading to a lot of public discussion about people getting punched in the face?

Do you honestly think Nazis, scum who advocate the wholesale slaughter of non-white peoples, need to be encouraged to commit violence? Seriously?

 

[SlipperyFishes]

Because they were? That was the point of the event. You don't have to agree with people's political views to understand this.

Wrong. They use "freedom of speech" as a hook to try and get justification for them performing hate crimes under the guise of "standing up for White America".

You absolutely cannot separate the two in this context. Their political views are "brown people are inferior" and you think we should allow that to be a discussion???

 

[Miles Quaritch]

One side is defending their right to spread hate. The other side is defending their right to exist.

And both are equally important apparently.

Now imagine if that had happened in the past...oh wait, I don't have to, we already know what happens when you allow Nazi ideology to spread without challenging it.

 

[theWB27]

Victim? I'm not a victim of anything. I know going in to any discussion on foreign policy that any and all support for military action will elicit a Trump supporter response. Which is strange because of the two candidates Hillary was the hawk, not Trump. But whatever, semantics never gets in the way of outrage.

And knowing what we're discussing never gets in the way of people making an irrelevant point.

We're not talking about Hillary. We're talking about racists and those on Gaf who think they deserve a platform.

If you would like to discuss that I'm here. If you want to discuss whatever you're going on about make the thread and I'll participate about that topic there.