Its very important to stress that there are always going to be differing viewpoints. In Japan thre are people who feel being gay is just a fact of life that should be represented, while others who may not be used to the concept or not know anyone who is personally gay generally conflate it with stereotypes of things they have seen in media, which promotes regressive attitudes.
It would be a mistake to label it as a "japan problem" so much as a problem inherent in parts of their society.
Just like the "all women over 30 are old women" stereotype of a mindset based on youthful idolization, tracing back to the mindset of getting old means being useless and worthless to society
Ultimately in this instance it goes back to the basic perspective of the game as a whole, which as the thread has dissected, is really not quite so boundary pushing or subversive as the game likes to think it is. I would say it's part of the package, rather than one particular slip up. A different writer, and even with the same nominal tropes, we might see a different enough outcome.
Also, Persona 3 has a Social Link where you're sorta complicit (or really just "whatever") in allowing your classmate to try hooking up with his favorite teacher. Shit fucking annoyed me. With P5 it's like, sure, with enough suspension of disbelief I can maybe buy that protag and Kawakami's personal relationship might be a little more than just "student / teacher", but the P3 Social Link with Kenji was way worse cause you don't ever help him realize how much of a creep he was. He just hits the road block the hard way and I say that was well fucking deserved. It was one of the worst Social Link in the series and part of the reason why I think many of P3's characters and Social Links are dated as fuck looking back at it.
there are kids who get crushes on their teachers...Kenji himself was just an irritating person and the game let you know that because of how in the clouds he was outside of reality.
They made it super clear that he was just imagining being in a relationship and it wasn't an actual one..
Ultimately in this instance it goes back to the basic perspective of the game as a whole, which as the thread has dissected, is really not quite so boundary pushing or subversive as the game likes to think it is. I would say it's part of the package, rather than one particular slip up. A different writer, and even with the same nominal tropes, we might see a different enough outcome.
Also, Persona 3 has a Social Link where you're sorta complicit (or really just "whatever") in allowing your classmate to try hooking up with his favorite teacher. Shit fucking annoyed me. With P5 it's like, sure, with enough suspension of disbelief I can maybe buy that protag and Kawakami's personal relationship might be a little more than just "student / teacher", but the P3 Social Link with Kenji was way worse cause you don't ever help him realize how much of a creep he was. He just hits the road block the hard way and I say that was well fucking deserved. It was one of the worst Social Link in the series and part of the reason why I think many of P3's characters and Social Links are dated as fuck looking back at it.
In fairness, that kinda describes 90% of the MC's social links in P3. It's my favourite of the modern Persona games, but the MC is kinda an incredible shitbag. It's frankly a miracle he could forge bonds at all, really.
That's really disappointing to hear. I've heard tons of praise for this series and have always held an interest in trying it out, it's shame to hear they'd be so regressive in this area.
Mondo Owada in DR1
Junko Enoshima in DR1
Ibuki Mioda in DR2
Teruteru Hanamura in DR2 (he was the problematic one I talked about)
Mahiru Koizumi in DR2
Mikan Tsumiki in DR2
Nagito Komaeda in DR2 (although they neutered the implications of this in the dub)
Komaru Naegi in DRAE
Touko Fukawa in DRAE
Tenko Chabashira
in NDRV3
Kokichi Ouma
in NDRV3
Also the protagonists in School/Island/
Space
Mode can pretty much go whichever way the player veers them although to be fair, the female routes are way more explicit.
In fairness, that kinda describes 90% of the MC's social links in P3. It's my favourite of the modern Persona games, but the MC is kinda an incredible shitbag. It's frankly a miracle he could forge bonds at all, really.
surprised that atlas didnt try adding someone like Erica(Catherine) as a love interest . Thought she was handled well (but i'm a white dude so i might be wrong on that front, not the best to judge things)
Erica herself I thought was great but it's the characters surrounding her that kind of muddy the waters. You can, however, use the excuse that the main characters of the game are already depicted as complete shitbags with no virtue (which during most parts of the game was something I felt made the game's setting and script surprisingly down to earth compared to any Persona game).
I know a lot is said about how (Katherine True End spoilers)
Toby treats the revelation in the endgame but the True Ending photo implies that they might still be in a relationship. His reaction to the revelation seems to be more about annoyance over perceived failure to establish himself as a masculine "cool guy" of the group but by the end of it he seems to be totally okay with it regardless.
I dunno about the Lala thing. She's fine as a character, but even then, the game can't resist the urge to turn the "otherness" into a cheap gag. If you start working at Crossroads, there's a dialogue option like "Do I have to cross dress?!" which then initiates a "funny" conversation where Morgana talks about how cute it would be to see you cross dress if you had to. It's literally nothing more than a "hurr hurr the bar owner is transgender does that mean every guy who works there might have to wear a dress omg!!!!" shit-tier gag. Really childish shit.
Erica herself I thought was great but it's the characters surrounding her that kind of muddy the waters. You can, however, use the excuse that the main characters of the game are already depicted as complete assholes with no virtue (which during most parts of the game was something I felt made the game surprisingly down to earth).
I know a lot is said about how (Katherine True End spoilers)
Toby treats the revelation in the endgame but the True Ending photo implies that they might still be in a relationship. His reaction to the revelation seems to be more about annoyance over perceived failure to establish himself as a masculine "cool guy" of the group but by the end of it he seems to be totally okay with it regardless.
More or less Toby seemed like the less offensive Yosuke (doesnt help they used the same voice actor in english) and I agree that the characters in Catherine were assholes since i think that was the point.
I dunno about the Lala thing. She's fine as a character, but even then, the game can't resist the urge to turn the "otherness" into a cheap gag. If you start working at Crossroads, there's a dialogue option like "Do I have to cross dress?!" which then initiates a "funny" conversation where Morgana talks about how cute it would be to see you cross dress if you had to. It's literally nothing more than a "hurr hurr the bar owner is transgender does that mean every guy who works there might have to wear a dress omg!!!!" shit-tier gag. Really childish shit.
Mondo Owada in DR1
Junko Enoshima in DR1
Ibuki Mioda in DR2
Teruteru Hanamura in DR2 (he was the problematic one I talked about)
Mahiru Koizumi in DR2
Mikan Tsumiki in DR2
Nagito Komaeda in DR2 (although they neutered the implications of this in the dub)
Komaru Naegi in DRAE
Touko Fukawa in DRAE
Man, I really need to replay the series because aside from Nagito I don't remember those at all. Wait no I remember Mikan. Super drawing a blank on Mondo though.
I've got a legitimate question that I'm sure someone will take completely out of context but I'm just genuinely curious, would it be as offensive if they weren't so flamboyant? Like, if they were just two gay dudes that were sexual predators without the ridiculous stereotypes, would there be as much anger? Is there any scenario where a gay dude being some sort of predator in a game would be acceptable?
For example, let's say...in The Last of Us,
there's the scene where David has Ellie prisoner and basically tells her if she'll willingly have sex with him, he'll be able to talk the others into letting her stay. If Ellie was a boy in the game, and everything else happened exactly the same, would that be something that would draw anger? Or would it be acceptable because it's clearly shown to be a fucked up thing and is not in there just for laughs?
And please don't take this as me somehow giving this a pass. I thought the scenes were pretty fucking ridiculous and had me rolling my eyes and skipping through.
Even if the Persona 5 characters weren't flamboyant, it would still play into the whole "all gays are pedo-predators" stereotype which is the far more harmful gay stereotype than the flamboyant one is, so no, it wouldn't be better at all.
In Last of Us it might've still been a bit distasteful if Ellie was a boy and that still happened with the bad guy, but maybe not as bad because the character is a "villain" and the plot point is not played for laughs, but is handled more seriously.
Also, Persona 3 has a Social Link where you're sorta complicit (or really just "whatever") in allowing your classmate to try hooking up with his favorite teacher. Shit fucking annoyed me. With P5 it's like, sure, with enough suspension of disbelief I can maybe buy that protag and Kawakami's personal relationship might be a little more than just "student / teacher", but the P3 Social Link with Kenji was way worse cause you don't ever help him realize how much of a creep he was. He just hits the road block the hard way and I say that was well fucking deserved. It was one of the worst Social Links in the series and part of the reason why I think many of P3's characters and Social Links are dated as fuck looking back at it.
That's really disappointing to hear. I've heard tons of praise for this series and have always held an interest in trying it out, it's shame to hear they'd be so regressive in this area.
The really frustrating part is that this really negative stuff comprises like, 0.1% of the total game and could've easily been left out. Even if they never once touched on LGBTI issues, the game would've been vastly better for omitting those shitty representations.
Obviously having the game address those same issues in a positive way would've been the ideal scenario, but seemingly that's an unrealistic stretch at this point.
The most galling thing is that you can't even use "it's just Japan" when Persona is the only modern RPG I can think of that indulge that in blatant homophobia. The hope is that they address it in the remake, but they won't.
The really frustrating part is that this really negative stuff comprises like, 0.1% of the total game and could've easily been left out. Even if they never once touched on LGBTI issues, the game would've been vastly better for omitting those shitty representations.
Obviously having the game address those same issues in a positive way would've been the ideal scenario, but seemingly that's an unrealistic stretch at this point.
In fairness, that kinda describes 90% of the MC's social links in P3. It's my favourite of the modern Persona games, but the MC is kinda an incredible shitbag. It's frankly a miracle he could forge bonds at all, really.
Like, seriously. I didn't know it was possible for a silent protagonist to be such an antisocial douchebag, but somehow P3 proved me wrong.
Actually that's something that surprises me about Persona in general. Even though the protagonists are all silent, they each feel like they have a set personality based on the way you can phrase answers and their design. Also the way people react to each protagonist helps giving them a distinct "feel" even if they are silent. I'm impressed because Persona is one of the best games in that regard.
P3 protagonist looks and acts antisocial(Mr "only social links with the girls on the team"). P4 dude looks like a very, very, VERY chill dude. P5 guy is...well, hard to say much about him because of how much of his personality seems caused by his backstory so I want to avoid spoilers but...yeah, they all feel very different.
Man, I really need to replay the series because aside from Nagito I don't remember those at all. Wait no I remember Mikan. Super drawing a blank on Mondo though.
Mondo is pretty low-key because in DR1 it's mostly just that he bonded with Ishimaru in an admittedly homoerotic way, but in DRAE you find out that one of his top lieutenants and his Closest Person was gay and looked pretty similar to Ishimaru.
Mondo Owada in DR1
Junko Enoshima in DR1
Ibuki Mioda in DR2
Teruteru Hanamura in DR2 (he was the problematic one I talked about)
Mahiru Koizumi in DR2
Mikan Tsumiki in DR2
Nagito Komaeda in DR2 (although they neutered the implications of this in the dub)
Komaru Naegi in DRAE
Touko Fukawa in DRAE
Mondo is pretty low-key because in DR1 it's mostly just that he bonded with Ishimaru in an admittedly homoerotic way, but in DRAE you find out that one of his top lieutenants and his Closest Person was gay and looked pretty similar to Ishimaru.
I couldn't get through DRAE because a couple scenes were a little disturbing to me and the lack of murder mysteries was more than I could handle, but that's interesting that they did that. That's a really nice touch.
The most galling thing is that you can't even use "it's just Japan" when Persona is the only modern RPG I can think of that indulge that in blatant homophobia. The hope is that they address it in the remake, but they won't.
Not only that, but it's also the RPG focusing on outcasts rebelling against society, you know, like oppressed groups have to in order to be respected...
It's so tone deaf it almost feels like an intended parody of itself. Fucking embarrassing.
I'm seriously thrilled that it looks like Hashino will be staying out of the next one (assuming this is his doing anyway).
Mondo is pretty low-key because in DR1 it's mostly just that he bonded with Ishimaru in an admittedly homoerotic way, but in DRAE you find out that one of his top lieutenants and his Closest Person was gay and looked pretty similar to Ishimaru.
That's really disappointing to hear. I've heard tons of praise for this series and have always held an interest in trying it out, it's shame to hear they'd be so regressive in this area.
Yep, I've never followed the series that closely, but it always looked like something that might appeal to me. I was keen to pick this game up after I'm done with Nier, but this thread has really soured me.
I've got a legitimate question that I'm sure someone will take completely out of context but I'm just genuinely curious, would it be as offensive if they weren't so flamboyant? Like, if they were just two gay dudes that were sexual predators without the ridiculous stereotypes, would there be as much anger? Is there any scenario where a gay dude being some sort of predator in a game would be acceptable?
For example, let's say...in The Last of Us,
there's the scene where David has Ellie prisoner and basically tells her if she'll willingly have sex with him, he'll be able to talk the others into letting her stay. If Ellie was a boy in the game, and everything else happened exactly the same, would that be something that would draw anger? Or would it be acceptable because it's clearly shown to be a fucked up thing and is not in there just for laughs?
And please don't take this as me somehow giving this a pass. I thought the scenes were pretty fucking ridiculous and had me rolling my eyes and skipping through.
But I don't understand why this is a question in the first place. No one is saying that the problem is that a homosexual is a sexual predator. The point being made is that the defining trait of said characters is primarily that they are gay, followed by them wanting to molest/rape/whatever Ryuji because he's a handsome young man. It's gross no matter what.
If Kamoshida was portrayed as someone who molests the boys in the volleyball team, it would not be a problematic portrayal. It would be just as relevant a social commentary as it is in the game now. The sexual orientation isn't as important as the abuse itself and the fact that people turn a blind eye to it. Kamoshida's defining trait is not that he likes girls, it is that he is an insecure Olympic champion who abuses his power to ensure he is the only one who is of importance so he can further take advantage of the situation for his own desires.
It is a problem when you put in a pair of characters in a story whose defining traits are a) whoa they're gay dudes, b) OH NO WATCH OUT THE GHEYS ARE COMIN', c) watch out yo, teh gays are here, don't get raped! That's the entire gag in both scenes they are in. That remains the gag if you talk to them on the Shinjuku map. They're not people, they are a warning that if you see people like that in real life you better watch out if you're a good looking guy. Gross.
There's no problem with a shitty character being shitty.
There's a problem when that character's shittiness never gets called out, and instead is either encouraged or played as a "playful joke."
This isn't like Mr. Morooka, where them being an awful skeezbag is just how it is. This is supposed to be one of your closest friends throughout the entire fucking game. The fact that you have to sit back and can't ever pull him aside and be like "You're being a fucking asshole," just shows what the game's attitude towards homosexuality really is.
The really frustrating part is that this really negative stuff comprises like, 0.1% of the total game and could've easily been left out. Even if they never once touched on LGBTI issues, the game would've been vastly better for omitting those shitty representations.
Obviously having the game address those same issues in a positive way would've been the ideal scenario, but seemingly that's an unrealistic stretch at this point.
...in kind of an ironic way, you could easily use what the game currently has, as metaphor. It wouldn't be that surprising if you discovered a member of your party was struggling with coming out of the closet, because the only examples of their sexuality they knowingly see (because as others have brought up, keeping things to yourself is heavily stressed in Japan) are the two assholes who seem to prove the negative stereotypes right, and so they fear their sexuality will somehow make them a bad person. That's easy to build into a Persona style confrontation and acceptance of one's self, and given how big Persona 5's playable cast apparently gets, they could have spared someone for that role. Thus the usage of the two creeps also becomes commentary, instead of being left as botched comedy.
...in kind of an ironic way, you could easily use what the game currently has, as metaphor. It wouldn't be that surprising if you discovered a member of your party was struggling with coming out of the closet, because the only examples of their sexuality they knowingly see (because as others have brought up, keeping things to yourself is heavily stressed in Japan) are the two assholes who seem to prove the negative stereotypes right, and so they fear their sexuality will somehow make them a bad person. That's easy to build into a Persona style confrontation and acceptance of one's self, and given how big Persona 5's playable cast apparently gets, they could have spared someone for that role. Thus the usage of the two creeps also becomes commentary, instead of being left as botched comedy.
They already did this in Persona 4. It was a touching story of two party members who struggled with gender identity, made worse by a homophobic party member who would overreact all the time. But together, with the bonds of friendship, they managed to all get over it..... because homosexuality doesn't exist and they were all really straight all along but confused! Yay!!!!
Her relationship with Sato is heavy with overtones, which taken to a whole other level in the DR3 anime, as well as the undertones of her relationship with Hiyoko
While I've agreed with this course of action before (i.e. Fire Emblem Fates), I'm glad that it was kept in this case so that it could be called out.
None of this is new to modern Persona; P3 and P4 had some really shitty elements (go fuck yourself, Yosuke), but they went under the radar due to their niche status. Now that P5 has a lot more mainstream attention, it's high time it's bullshit gets called out
They already did this in Persona 4. It was a touching story of two party members who struggled with gender identity, made worse by a homophobic party member who would overreact all the time. But together, with the bonds of friendship, they managed to all get over it..... because homosexuality doesn't exist and they were all really straight all along but confused! Yay!!!!
wasnt kanji only thinking he was gay because he was naoto-sexual (i hate this term but its something i saw from the other thread) Like the idea of liking another male never hit him until he saw naoto. Masculinity was his issue , and people not taking women or children seriously was naoto's (game making her more lewd was very very dumb in releases after the main game) so she wanted to become a man for that sole reason. ..... yosuke still sucks and should have been called out , or had that original romance plot in and more or less have that fear that he was gay be a plotline or something.
also in a sarcastic way of thinking remember that atlus doesnt want you to think of their works as real, otherwise ya'll lied with the contract. All works are purely coincidental and not supposed to be thought up as real.... again i'm being super super sarcastic for this part. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucsgbxXEl0Q
oh christ, everything is political. Comics are political and they're stupidly unrealistic. I'd rather lambast you than post that shitty bingo card.
If you dont want politics, live under a rock, quit gaming and any other form of media.
Man, I really need to replay the series because aside from Nagito I don't remember those at all. Wait no I remember Mikan. Super drawing a blank on Mondo though.
Why? If politics is spilling out from referring strictly to governance into any kind of social or cultural aspect, then having no political stuff would mean a game entirely devoid of any context, surely? If gaming is to be seen as an art-form, and not just a quick endorphin fix, then it can't exist in a social vacuum. And classing LGBT+ themes as "political stuff" really does a disservice to people who are LGBT+, where it is not simply some political issue, but a part of their life - not something you can just chuck in a box and hide in a dark corner.
surprised that atlas didnt try adding someone like Erica(Catherine) as a love interest . Thought she was handled well (but i'm a white dude so i might be wrong on that front, not the best to judge things)
Great OP, however I wasn't at all surprised when I saw these while playing P5. Japanese media doesn't have a great track record when it comes to LGBT representation.
Gender & sexuality aren't the only aspects of people that are political. People need to accept that most things can have some kind of political aspect or another attached to it, especially if a game tries to do any kind of societal commentary.
What needs to chance is that sexuality (especially homosexuality) isn't seen as a kind of negative "bleh, not politix in muh geimus again" aspect while people are blind to pretty much everything else that is also political.
Great OP, however I wasn't at all surprised when I saw these while playing P5. Japanese media doesn't have a great track record when it comes to LGBT representation.
I would actually say in general, while there are plenty of embarrassing examples, japanese "media" in general is actually a lot better about it than western media has been historically. What would have been scandalous in America in the 90s generally was just what was shown on TV, such as Utena for example.
Sailor Moon was the one who had to turn Uranus and Neptune into cousins after all
I just think its faarr more complicated than initially perceived
If you dont mind, can you post some of the reasons you thought she was terrible and that the game would have been better for not having representing her? If you dont want to that's alright too. Just trying to learn how she may have been harmful for LGBT representation.
Gender & sexuality aren't the only aspects of people that are political. People need to accept that most things can have some kind of political aspect or another attached to it, especially if a game tries to do any kind of societal commentary.
What needs to chance is that sexuality (especially homosexuality) isn't seen as a kind of negative "bleh, not politix in muh geimus again" aspect while people are blind to pretty much everything else that is also political.
I get what you're saying. It just bugs me when people label it as something purely political because most political opinions involve choice, and obviously gay people don't have a choice other than the choice to keep quiet about themselves. Like you said it's often used as a negative, like having a gay person in any form of media is forcing a "political agenda." The agenda being that gay people exist, I guess.
Not really. If I was going for that then there would be waaaaay more, those were just the ones that have pretty explicit overtones, the DanganRonpa series in general is pretty conservative in how it portrays relationships though (at least until DR3/NDRV3) so I can't really blame you for saying that.
