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Team Fortress 2 Official PC Thread. SO. WORTH. IT.
- Thread starter saelz8
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I'm not sure, firex, but your reasoning/math seems a bit off. If someone isn't particular about the hats they get (ie me), that's a 0.4% chance every time you get an unlock. Those odds don't get any worse because any of the 27 hats are equally acceptable outcomes.
The odds do get worse if you want a specific hat or a hat for a specific class.
The odds do get worse if you want a specific hat or a hat for a specific class.
That's what I meant. If you want a hat in particular, take 0.4%, then divide that by 27, and there you go... there's your odds of getting that hat. If you want, say, any hat for a specific class, then divide by 9, I suppose.
They just need to make hats drop more often and/or let you pick one if you unlock every achievement in a class pack.
They just need to make hats drop more often and/or let you pick one if you unlock every achievement in a class pack.
Kuro Madoushi
Unconfirmed Member
haven't been keeping up with this
can you have two of the same hat?
did this ratio change for hats? i remember i got the football helmet i think the first day the patch came out and then NOTHING since
can you have two of the same hat?
did this ratio change for hats? i remember i got the football helmet i think the first day the patch came out and then NOTHING since
Azure Dream
Member
Botolf said:
Many people aren't doing this during the time they'd be playing anyway. Even if they were in the actual game, they'd just have the window minimized, they wouldn't have to be near the computer for that, either.
They probably aren't playing any less because of this, since if they want to play, it's the same as idling anyway. They're doing this when they aren't playing.
Firestorm said:
You have to appear as online in your friends list to receive items. Although Away might work too, now that I think about it.
Azure Dream
Member
Botolf said:
So a couple of your friends are idling for hats once in a while. Big deal. :lol They'll probably stop once they get a couple, anyway.
I promise you people using the idle program are just as likely to be near the computer as people sitting in an idle server.Botolf said:
That is a flawed logic, sir.
Furthermore, idling is not going to PREVENT me from playing the game. Nor is it going to lure me away from playing the game. More flawed logic. It is simply something I do when I cannot play.
Snipers are cheaters. Idlers are not. Well known fact.
BigKaboom2
Member
Fast respawn servers outnumbering normal ones like 5:1 is so depressing.
Azure Dream
Member
BigKaboom2 said:
People don't like waiting to play, it's simple. I remember trying the Shadowrun 360 demo, and how boring it was dying so quickly in a match and just staring at other people play until the round ended.
I don't agree with it being a problem in TF2, because it's not just a flat 30 seconds or something basic, there's a lot of underlying logic to how respawns work, such as encouraging groups rather than single player suicide runs. But often people want to be a part of the direct action, especially if they don't have any interested invested in their team as a whole.
BigKaboom2
Member
Yeah, it's totally understandable but BLU is virtually incapable of winning on attack/defense maps using fast respawn, which is far more maddening than having to spectate somebody for 10 seconds. In fact, I often decide where to go and what to do by scouting out the people on the front lines while dead.
Sometimes, the only people on my friendlist playing TF2... aren't actually playing TF2 -_-Kulock said:
I haven't been able to reach people using the idle program, I have, however, been able to reach people occasionally on the idle map servers. It isn't flawed, it's merely anecdotal. Shock horror, sir!TheOneGuy said:
'More flawed logic'. Cute, but I've heard many accounts of people not bothering to play the game and instead turning on the idle program instead. Again, it's anecdotal, but it's not flawed logic by any stretch of the imagination. I can't pretend to know what mental process makes them do this, but there are players that actually do the above.
What I'm complaining about is the players who'd rather run the idler than play the goddamn game. They're out there, and it's really annoying.
Uh-huh. You havin' a troll here?
Flawed logic is flawed logic. You can't make wildly blanketing statements based on anecdotes.
And if there really are players who'd rather idle than play the game and it really bothers you so much, then remove them from your friends list.
HOW DARE
BUT IT
This is about the time Volcano Man usually jumps in and tells me to shut up about snipers. ):
And if there really are players who'd rather idle than play the game and it really bothers you so much, then remove them from your friends list.
WHY IBotolf said:
HOW DARE
BUT IT
This is about the time Volcano Man usually jumps in and tells me to shut up about snipers. ):
I'd be working in flawed logic if I made a statement along the lines of, "I see a problem, therefore, it is a problem everywhere". But I wasn't. Anecdotes are all I can provide, I don't expect your perspective is any more expansive.TheOneGuy said:
I'm not trumpeting my opinion as "this is how it is fer everybuddeh". The idler program isn't doing me any favours, it isn't improving the game from my perspective. The game's item systems could certainly be improved, because the fact that there's a "need" for the idler program is troubling in itself. Dissuading use of the program and encouraging in-game acquisition should be the way to go. We'll see what happens.
I'm too generous
That spah's not on our side!
I dunno; I avoid fast respawn servers if they have it in their tags or server name.
Anyway, snipers aren't cheaters so much as just wastes of a team slot because they accomplish nothing but killing people. Makes them useless almost all the time on CP/CTF maps and only useful on defense for any kind of attack/defend map. I think the game needs about 80 more sniper counters, though. Like the ability to airblast sniper shots right back at the sniper for a headshot, or rockets speeding up 50x if they are fired at a sniper, and always being critical. Or a cuckoo clock sentry with its own little mechanized sniper that immediately counter-snipes the enemy sniper with a fully charged headshot.
Anyway, snipers aren't cheaters so much as just wastes of a team slot because they accomplish nothing but killing people. Makes them useless almost all the time on CP/CTF maps and only useful on defense for any kind of attack/defend map. I think the game needs about 80 more sniper counters, though. Like the ability to airblast sniper shots right back at the sniper for a headshot, or rockets speeding up 50x if they are fired at a sniper, and always being critical. Or a cuckoo clock sentry with its own little mechanized sniper that immediately counter-snipes the enemy sniper with a fully charged headshot.
Fine, but your original post definitely held the aforementioned implications.
Still there's still nothing wrong with leaving the program running while I can't play. It's no different from sitting in an idle server, except uses less energy.
If you hated BOTH the idle program and idle servers, then I could see where you're coming from (even if I disagree, at least you're being consistent). ALL OR NOTHIN'.
Plus I just got Jarate last night. Every weapon unlocked now despite not having played since shortly after the scout update. ROCKIN', MUAHARHAR. (Though I really only idle for the hats. The weapons were just a bonus - I'd get them eventually, anyway.)
Still there's still nothing wrong with leaving the program running while I can't play. It's no different from sitting in an idle server, except uses less energy.
If you hated BOTH the idle program and idle servers, then I could see where you're coming from (even if I disagree, at least you're being consistent). ALL OR NOTHIN'.
Plus I just got Jarate last night. Every weapon unlocked now despite not having played since shortly after the scout update. ROCKIN', MUAHARHAR. (Though I really only idle for the hats. The weapons were just a bonus - I'd get them eventually, anyway.)
Well, THERE'S your problem!I'm too generous
Spies are cool, though.
Azure Dream
Member
Botolf said:
That... doesn't sound like a problem on their end.
Botolf said:
As far as I know, the idler doesn't interfere with Steam messaging. I'm not defending it, I'm just not sure what you're arguing here. So you're okay with them idling directly in-game (no issues there), but you think that they're going to be waiting on pins and needles for you to invite them to a "real" game?
Botolf said:
Their existance annoys you? If they weren't running the idler, they'd be idling in game. There is a tiny, fractional chance that they'd be messing around in the idle room and more likely to respond, but what will probably happen is that they'll minimize it, and go do something else. They aren't idling instead of playing, they're idling in addition to playing. The idler made their life a little easier and their system resources less choked to the same benefit, but they're not going to be that much more accessible like you think they'll be. They aren't looking for an excuse to play TF2 when they're idling, or they would just be playing TF2 anyway.
I thought the Specialist achievement was one of those that was nearly impossible to get (10000 points in a single life) but I just got it, like RIGHT at the end of a round. Second map of round of uh...dustbowl? The one with the little raised platform at the end, with a fence on one side, and a building with a gate in the front. We defended it with a 10-12 person team for like 12 minutes and I still barely got the achievement just camping behind the engineers.
It wasn't that much of an accomplishment I guess (the other team wasn't that great and only took out our sentries once or twice), but it was still satisfying to get a reward for being a decent medic.
It wasn't that much of an accomplishment I guess (the other team wasn't that great and only took out our sentries once or twice), but it was still satisfying to get a reward for being a decent medic.
Wasn't always this way, but hey, if you know some cool people who won't clog the list, namedrop plox.Kulock said:
What I mean is that in my experience, there's a better chance of roping in-game idlers into a game than the program idlers. The latter could be having a vacation in China for all I know, but a person letting the game run might not be too far away. That's my experience, anyway.
See above.
Edit: @TheOneGuy: The most obvious distinction is in how kosher the two methods are. The idle maps are just like the achievement maps, whereas the program raises a whole stew of questions about whether this is actually sanctioned or not. It's more comparable to the achievement unlocker programs floating around (in that it's 3rd party meddling and confers an advantage not possible in regular play). Basically, if I wanted to idle, I would find a server and pass on the program, because there's nothing at all wrong with the former, and potentially quite a bit wrong with the latter.
EditEdit: Cloak and Dagger roolz.
But why does it bother you, personally?Botolf said:
The end result is the exact same; it is only the means that are different. If you worked for Valve maybe it'd make sense to be bothered by someone essentially reverse-engineering your server communication protocol, but you don't... do you?
It is not at all comparable to the achievement unlocker programs, though. It doesn't offer an advantage over idling in a "real" server, except the aforementioned "less resources used." You're comparing it to cheating, to straight up changing stored data to gain an advantage. That is not what is happening.
In other words, morally, the program and idle servers are the same.
Uh, no, not at all.TheOneGuy said:
I compared the program to the achievement locker because both are third party programs, and both offer an advantage over regular play (no-one plays Team Fortress 2 for a week straight, for example, and few would probably be willing to run the game for that long). The fact that it is a piece of third-party software is the biggy, though, and there's all kind of potential to run afoul of Valve's game and steam rules, or to even actively undermine their item systems. Rare items aren't going to be very special if people start effectively farming for them, accumulating them en masse. Morally the servers and the program are on completely different levels. Only one of these is sanctioned by Valve as of this point.
Addendum: The system is also supposed to work specifically in-game, just like the achievements are supposed to work specifically in-game. Third parties mucking about in and undermining Valve's systems isn't a cheery prospect for me, it's just a nuisance.
Jonny The Pie King
Banned
Huh, I'm tempted to put "stock settings" in my server's name now :lol
Anyway, it's going to be a depressing while without TF2. Steam+Windows 7 Professional= Bad.
Hopefully my jerk friends don't get anymore hats.
Anyway, it's going to be a depressing while without TF2. Steam+Windows 7 Professional= Bad.
Hopefully my jerk friends don't get anymore hats.
It works on the 64-bit Windows 7 RC. It seems there's something rare where Windows 7 decides that Steam itself should run in some sort of compatibility mode. I don't know if it caused any problems for me actually running stuff, but the warning Steam gave scared me off so I tried to track it down. For me, it seemed to happen after I messed around with Win7 compatibility settings to run a Steam game, but not Steam itself...I don't know if that's the same problem he's having or not. The annoying thing is that once Windows 7 automatically sets compatibility for certain programs, there's NO easy way to change it as far as I can figure out, without messing with the registry.firex said:
I've already said I'd discount that comparison (which works on some levels, but fuzzy on others). I did write more objections than that one. It remains that, morally, the idle program is in a definite grey area (or that it's downright risky to toy with). It's morally incompatible with the idle maps because those are contained within the game and don't extend beyond the game whatsoever. Custom maps tailored to getting items or achievements are definitely kosher, this idle program can't be defined as such.TheOneGuy said:
But it is exactly equivalent to logging into the game and joining a server, except the means! The end result is the same! Aghh! You don't get MORE items, you don't get items FASTER, you don't gain or lose stats or ANYTHING of the sort. And they are both achieved in the same way: letting some program run on your computer while you are not playing.
It IS the moral equivalent!!!1!
It could be argued, however, that maybe the author has malicious intent and is actually slowly hacking away at our passwords or some shit BUT aside from that...
I'm done. DONE. I'm right you're wrong so there. );
It IS the moral equivalent!!!1!
It could be argued, however, that maybe the author has malicious intent and is actually slowly hacking away at our passwords or some shit BUT aside from that...
I'm done. DONE. I'm right you're wrong so there. );
The ends are the same, but the means are not. That's kind of a big deal.
You can't equivocate a map played in Valve's games and within Valve's rules to a program running outside of Valve's games and outside of Valve's rules. Third parties don't get license to do whatever they want with a game's networking and item systems.
You can't equivocate a map played in Valve's games and within Valve's rules to a program running outside of Valve's games and outside of Valve's rules. Third parties don't get license to do whatever they want with a game's networking and item systems.
firex said:
I think a simple counter for the sniper would be to take away their two points for a head shot. A kill's a kill. If you're a sniper, you should be shooting at the head. This would eliminate snipers point whoring their way to the top spot (assuming they have skill), while contributing very little to the team. Even on defense (the one time they have some use), the number of times I've seen snipers zoomed out while an enemy, 20 feet away, successfully pushes the cart to the last point is crazy. Having to watch some of their antics while dead is pretty nuts.
The critics would say: But if they don't get two points, how would they compete on the scoreboard? How about by accomplishing some objectives in the game. You know, the point of the game.
BigKaboom2
Member
Wow, I had no idea you got two points for a headshot kill
. No wonder they're always top of the scoreboard.
sniper my least played class by far
I really can't tell if you're joking. It's ridiculous if you're not.1-D_FTW said:
How can you say snipers are useless? They're a vital part of the team, no other class can kill other players that efficiently. They essentially act as super long range, mobile sentries. They're killing machines, and they can easily turn the tide of a game.
Azure Dream
Member
Proven said:
Spies often have to sneak right into the thick of the enemy team and con them long enough to get their kills, without dying from spy checking in the process. If they're figured out, they are at a huge disadvantage and usually die. (Or at least, that's how it was until the Dead Ringer gave them free armor.) Snipers don't even have to leave the spawn for some maps, able to instantly kill someone who's already been running from their spawn for almost half a minute and are just about to join the actual battle. Spies risk a lot and die a lot to get their kills.
Confidence Man
Member
1-D_FTW said:
Huntsman remedies this to some extent. At least for myself, when I play huntsman sniper, I try to stay in the thick of things, especially since headshots are a lot easier up close.
Of course, the people who hang back and try to snipe with it are probably twice as useless as a normal sniper.
As for cheating classes, there is simply no comparison to be made with the spy. He is cheating incarnate.
He can turn invisible permanently with the Cloak and Dagger. With the Dead Ringer (that can somehow put out fire) he gets an 'escape death free' card, one that can be played over and over again, unlike, say, the Sniper's Razorback, which is only good once per life.
He gets an insta-kill from behind, even if you know he's there. The whole idea of the backstab should be that it's a surprise kill, that you don't know it's coming so you can't defend against it. Yet you can be in a face-to-face melee fight with a spy and still get backstabbed. I won't even get into the frontstab.
Oh, and don't forget he gets infinite sappers, with no cooldown time between use. So he can just run up to an engineer emplacement and spam sap everything immediately and repeatedly without having to recharge or find more.
IMO spies should only get backstabs if they're disguised, and sappers should be either limited in number or require a cooldown time between use like every other ability of every other class.
Confidence Man
Member
Dear god the backstab train. I can feel my blood pressure going up.
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