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[Twig]

Bah, someone I know who got a camera beard and other stuff through idling still has all of his items PLUS the halo. Fail.

Are you sure he wasn't idling on an idle server, and not using the program?

Valve is distinguishing between the two, even though there's no fundamental difference.

 

[Blizzard]

Are you sure he wasn't idling on an idle server, and not using the program?

Valve is distinguishing between the two, even though there's no fundamental difference.

Has anyone ever posted the source of the idler program? Using a third-party program that connects to official game servers is different than using an actual game program. A company (like FFXI and WoW people) might not like people using third-party programs to connect to ingame systems.

And yes, he used the idler program, and yes, I saw the update news.

 

[Bunny]

played a little today, i didn't even know about the halos :lol .

 

[Won]

I'm pretty sure whatever code Valve wrote, it won't catch everyone.

But at least some meltdowns! Thats how I like it!

 

[1-D_FTW]

Yeah. So I didn't get a second halo. You just get the announcement you're not a cheater and then it shows up a little while later as a found item. A hat right off the bat? Should have known better than that.

 

[firex]

Has anyone ever posted the source of the idler program? Using a third-party program that connects to official game servers is different than using an actual game program. A company (like FFXI and WoW people) might not like people using third-party programs to connect to ingame systems.

And yes, he used the idler program, and yes, I saw the update news.

what do you mean by the source of the idler program? It was made by Drunken F00l from SourceOP.com. He also made a pretty cool site you can use to browse people's backpacks called tf2items.com which Valve is actually helping him develop further.

if you use it and view Valve members you can see the crazy hacker stuff they have in their backpacks.

 

[Twig]

Has anyone ever posted the source of the idler program? Using a third-party program that connects to official game servers is different than using an actual game program. A company (like FFXI and WoW people) might not like people using third-party programs to connect to ingame systems.

And yes, he used the idler program, and yes, I saw the update news.

Right, the company doesn't like it. That doesn't mean it's any different. You and Botolf are too buddy-buddy, I think.

I'm pretty sure whatever code Valve wrote, it won't catch everyone.

But at least some meltdowns! Thats how I like it!

I'm sayin' man! Rock on!

 

[Pumpkins]

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/HealersAgainstHalos

"Healers against Halos" :lol :lol :lol

 

[1-D_FTW]

What's pretty hilarious right now is, spies wearing the halo still have their halo visible when they're cloaked. So occasionally you see a halo floating through the air and it's free picking.:lol

 

[Pumpkins]

What's pretty hilarious right now is, spies wearing the halo still have their halo visible when they're cloaked. So occasionally you see a halo floating through the air and it's free picking.:lol

I noticed that too. :lol

 

[Sibylus]

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/HealersAgainstHalos

"Healers against Halos" :lol :lol :lol

So now the frustrated are going to punish people who didn't idle, brilliant idea :lol

 

[firex]

I found some hilarious tf2 group too: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/keeptf2green

joined it for the hell of it but I just like the absurd premise and their main page logo.

 

[Blizzard]

what do you mean by the source of the idler program? It was made by Drunken F00l from SourceOP.com. He also made a pretty cool site you can use to browse people's backpacks called tf2items.com which Valve is actually helping him develop further.

if you use it and view Valve members you can see the crazy hacker stuff they have in their backpacks.

I mean, the source code of the actual command-line executable. People trust the author, sure, but I'd like to see the source to see how it actually works.

Right, the company doesn't like it. That doesn't mean it's any different. You and Botolf are too buddy-buddy, I think.

What the franoodle. I don't typically go on crazy long internet arguments like he does, so I mostly skimmed over your argument. I kind of figured you were joking around since that's kind of your style?

At any rate, to be serious, I mean that companies typically don't like third-party utilities interacting with their official multiplayer games, systems, and servers. FFXI and WoW would be examples. I just mentioned that to say that I think it's not surprising that Valve would care over people using normal idle servers and achievement maps.

As for the actual program being different, I mean it is logically physically different from a programmatic standpoint, or at least, so I imagine having not yet seen the source code. From what people say, it sounds like it's a command-line program that connects to a server using whatever protocols TF2 uses, thus producing a fake client that still somehow emulates TF2's networking enough to get Valve servers to do stuff.

That sort of interaction is terrifying to me from a VAC-banning standpoint, especially since I don't trust Valve not to screw stuff up. They typically screw stuff up and have to fix bugs after each update (i.e. jarate and the baseball going through spawn gates most recently). That's no big deal to me, but it's more of a big deal if they make a little mistake and autoban someone, or their automatic system disables the entire ACCOUNT of two people on this forum over the weekend, until Valve could look at it and say "oh ok, that disable was automatic, you're turned back on now".

So I really hope Valve doesn't start trying to introduce more serious measures, out of fear that I'll be caught in some mistaken disabling of my account with hundreds of dollars of games, and no recourse.

*edit*

I didn't know that about cloaked spies, but I did notice that a sniper in the dark is super visible with a halo. I'll have to remember to only wear it with certain classes.

Also, someone claimed earlier in this thread that you're fully invisible even when the cloak and dagger is at 0%...is that true?!

 

[firex]

oh, I'm not sure about the source code. I think it was available somewhere on sourceop.com's forums but I didn't really go searching for it since I'm not really a computer guy. I'm like the "computer guy" in that xkcd flowchart thing.

edit: just to be clear, I'm only Twig's side with the sniper hate. the rest of the time I'm leaving him alone like a medic with 98% ubercharge who sees a friendly heavy around the corner.

 

[Sibylus]

That doesn't mean it's any different. You and Botolf are too buddy-buddy, I think.

It means a lot of important things, you crazy!

 

[Twig]

What the franoodle. I don't typically go on crazy long internet arguments like he does, so I mostly skimmed over your argument. I kind of figured you were joking around since that's kind of your style?

I was! When I said this:

Right, the company doesn't like it. That doesn't mean it's any different. You and Botolf are too buddy-buddy, I think.

It was a jocular accusing statement. ):

It sounded like you were saying what Botolf was arguing for with me, so I made a light-hearted comment about it! Take no offense prz.

As for the actual program being different, I mean it is logically physically different from a programmatic standpoint, or at least, so I imagine having not yet seen the source code. From what people say, it sounds like it's a command-line program that connects to a server using whatever protocols TF2 uses, thus producing a fake client that still somehow emulates TF2's networking enough to get Valve servers to do stuff.

I think this is exactly what it does, actually. And I did say "fundamentally" the same thing! Maybe that was the wrong word?

edit: just to be clear, I'm only Twig's side with the sniper hate. the rest of the time I'm leaving him alone like a medic with 98% ubercharge who sees a friendly heavy around the corner.

You've gotta be at 100% now, so it's time to jump in the fray! Guns blazin'. Or mediguns as the case may be.

 

[Won]

People on the steam forum act like Valve closed down their accounts or something. Crazy, jealous people! :lol

 

[Sibylus]

People on the steam forum act like Valve closed down their accounts or something. Crazy, jealous people! :lol

The forum is a sewage tank at the best of times, all it takes is one minor thing and people start bouncing off the walls.

 

[Sibylus]

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/HealersAgainstHalos

"Healers against Halos" :lol :lol :lol

They're now promoting a halo replacement model:
http://i30.tinypic.com/9ih3eh.jpg

So yea, it's basically a group for douchebags.

 

[Pumpkins]

They're now promoting a halo replacement model:
http://i30.tinypic.com/9ih3eh.jpg

So yea, it's basically a group for douchebags.

What kind of people even do this? I mean really, who takes the time to make this crap?

 

[Twig]

What kind of people even do this? I mean really, who takes the time to make this crap?

I know someone personally who would probably make it, if he had the skills. ):

That group is a sad, bitter group, but I wholly support the Green group firex linked. Because it's cleverly done and amusing.

P.S. I hope I don't get in Extra Trouble because I left the idler running when I left for work this morning. It's still going now, it says I'm playing TF2 on my community page.

*waggles eyebrows furiously*

 

[Blizzard]

Someone on the server I'm playing on is talking about how they used the idler and were rewarded with a halo too. Nice. (they might have gotten the halo ingame)

 

[Proven]

Oh wow. My first hat.

I'll play sometime tomorrow.

 

[speedpop]

:lol @ bitter tears and meltdowns.

 

[Inkwell]

Oh man. This is good stuff. I can't believe the immaturity over the whole situation. I've already stopped wearing my halo. when 95.5% of the community has one also, it's not really that special. It's too bad the halo is my only hat. I've put in quite a few hours hoping to "earn" one.

What's pretty hilarious right now is, spies wearing the halo still have their halo visible when they're cloaked. So occasionally you see a halo floating through the air and it's free picking.

When I first saw this, I just kind of watched it for a little bit wondering what the hell it was :lol . I caught on quick enough though.

By the way, am I the only one who doesn't like that they increased the chance of getting a hat? When everyone has hats I don't think people will really care much about them anymore.

 

[Twig]

By the way, am I the only one who doesn't like that they increased the chance of getting a hat? When everyone has hats I don't think people will really care much about them anymore.

What.

I don't see why the hats have to be special and limited to only a very few people.

In fact that's about the dumbest idea ever in a multiplayer game.

 

[Inkwell]

What.

I don't see why the hats have to be special and limited to only a very few people.

In fact that's about the dumbest idea ever in a multiplayer game.

Why is it a dumb idea? Maybe they should just give everyone every single hat from the start then. Would that make you happy?

 

[Sibylus]

What.

I don't see why the hats have to be special and limited to only a very few people.

In fact that's about the dumbest idea ever in a multiplayer game.

The concern is probably for the items becoming homogeneous over the population (ie every Pyro you see having a rubber glove hat, etc). If the different hat types keeps rising, though, then the drop rate could also rise and there'd be less likelihood of the same hat types recurring often in the same matches.

The trading and weapon forging will have interesting results, to make an understatement. How many Backburners do I have to melt down to make myself a Pyro hat?

 

[Twig]

Why is it a dumb idea? Maybe they should just give everyone every single hat from the start then. Would that make you happy?

Yes. Yes it would. I like the idea of "earning" something but, eh, this isn't really earning. It's just hoping one day you'll find bag of money that has "Free to a Good Home" written on the side.

The concern is probably for the items becoming homogeneous over the population (ie every Pyro you see having a rubber glove hat, etc).

I don't see why that's a problem. As long sa they continue adding more options (which they obviously are doing!), appearances will diversify more and more.

The trading and weapon forging will have interesting results, to make an understatement. How many Backburners do I have to melt down to make myself a Pyro hat?

This I never heard about, though. That's interesting. O:

When I first saw "weapon forging" I thought you were implying making our own special stat weapons by combining unlocks or something. ): That would be too MMO-ish (or just RPG-ish, really) for most people, though.

EDIT: All this talk about "adding more options" just made me think of a scout dressed up as a heavy. Fat suit and everything. Don't ask me how I got to this.

Hit boxes would be the same as the heavy, but unless you hit in the normal scout hit box it only slowly tears off the heavy suit.

note: i am not suggesting this for tf2 it just made me laff

U:

 

[Sibylus]

I don't see why that's a problem. As long sa they continue adding more options (which they obviously are doing!), appearances will diversify more and more.

A problem because as it is right now, hats can spice up the game in cool ways (because among the population, they're not homogeneous). "That spy with the fedora who keeps backstabbing me" sticks in your brain, just like "that Heavy with the Football helmet that always pushes into our base". A homogeneous game would have a sea of hats and no real diversity or uniqueness. Assuming the latter bolded is the result we get, then all is well.

As I was saying, more varieties of hats could help if the drop rate rises further.

This I never heard about, though. That's interesting. O:

When I first saw "weapon forging" I thought you were implying making our own special stat weapons by combining unlocks or something. ): That would be too MMO-ish (or just RPG-ish, really) for most people, though.

Well, I'm kinda speculating on what goes into what hat, but that's what the little blurb made me think of:

"We realize there is a high level of demand for items, and we're still working on systems to allow you to find them in new ways (via Trading, and crafting duplicates into desired items)."

It would make sense to me on a conceptual level to combine Pyro items to make a Pyro hat, or to combine Heavy items to make a Heavy hat. The requirements would probably be steep, so that you would be encouraged to trade around for ingredient items.

 

[Twig]

A problem because as it is right now, hats can spice up the game in cool ways (because among the population, they're not homogeneous). "That spy with the fedora who keeps backstabbing me" sticks in your brain, just like "that Heavy with the Football helmet that always pushes into our base". A homogeneous game would have a sea of hats and no real diversity or uniqueness. Assuming the latter bolded is the result we get, then all is well.

As I was saying, more varieties of hats could help if the drop rate rises further.

But... if everyone had the hats (of which there are three for each class...) there would ALREADY be more diversity. You might think that most would only pick the one hat, but... wouldn't that basically be the same as it is now, where MOST people don't have a hat? Besides, I can say for sure I would not pick the rubber glove as a pyro hat.

Just saying. There's absolutely no logical or gameplay reason to make the hats hard to get.

It doesn't bother me, really, I'll still enjoy the game. I just don't understand people's desires to make things hard to get.

Well, I'm kinda speculating on what goes into what hat, but that's what the little blurb made me think of:

"We realize there is a high level of demand for items, and we're still working on systems to allow you to find them in new ways (via Trading, and crafting duplicates into desired items)."

It would make sense to me on a conceptual level to combine Pyro items to make a Pyro hat, or to combine Heavy items to make a Heavy hat. The requirements would probably be steep, so that you would be encouraged to trade around for ingredient items.

Ah. I'd missed that little blurb before, so I didn't know where you got it from. Now I know!

 

[Zyzyxxz]

well at least the only item that got removed on my account was the dead ringer and I never use it.

 

[Sibylus]

But... if everyone had the hats (of which there are three for each class...) there would ALREADY be more diversity. You might think that most would only pick the one hat, but... wouldn't that basically be the same as it is now, where MOST people don't have a hat? Besides, I can say for sure I would not pick the rubber glove as a pyro hat.

Just saying. There's absolutely no logical or gameplay reason to make the hats hard to get.

If most Pyros had a Pyro hat equipped, the addition of the hats would have a small effect on making the game diverse (You'd see those three hats repeated constantly). If lots of people are going to be having hats as a result of the drop rates being increased again, then the pool of hats should also be increased, so there are less repeats. I'm not for making hats harder to get, I'm for variety. If Valve can add a crapton more hats & jack up the rates (Or) Get in those trading and crafting systems, then we'll probably maintain the diversity we have now (except with more people having hats, just few repeats).

It doesn't bother me, really, I'll still enjoy the game. I just don't understand people's desires to make things hard to get.

Oy. It's not about making things hard to get, it's about avoiding everybody looking more or less the same (Which would make adding items a meaningless exercise).

Ah. I'd missed that little blurb before, so I didn't know where you got it from. Now I know!

8 Backburners to make myself a rubber hat. I'm calling it right now.

 

[Twig]

If most Pyros had a Pyro hat equipped, the addition of the hats would have a small effect on making the game diverse (You'd see those three hats repeated constantly). If lots of people are going to be having hats as a result of the drop rates being increased again, then the pool of hats should also be increased, so there are less repeats. I'm not for making hats harder to get, I'm for variety. If Valve can add a crapton more hats & jack up the rates (Or) Get in those trading and crafting systems, then we'll probably maintain the diversity we have now (except with more people having hats, just few repeats).


Oy. It's not about making things hard to get, it's about avoiding everybody looking more or less the same (Which would make adding items a meaningless exercise).

But... right now most people don't have hats. Like I said. Giving all those hats to everyone even now with only three per class would increase the diversity because you'd have FOUR options (most likely three, because people will want hats, but HEY) instead of the predominantly ONE option most people have.

Plus we lived for over a year without ANY appearance customization. I think we can survive...

And furthermore, it's NOT meaningless. I would be able to look how I want. So would you. So would everyone else.

8 Backburners to make myself a rubber hat. I'm calling it right now.

Sounds reasonable.

Except that doesn't really make it much easier. ): Well, maybe combined with the, wossname, trading.

 

[pilonv1]

awesome meltdowns. value is tremendous

 

[evlcookie]

awesome meltdowns. value is tremendous

No, Valve is terrible.

However i did lose a few items since i idled, i don't care though. These are all from classes i don't play and have no intention of playing. My main character doesn't even have any bloody upgrades yet.

They just went about it the wrong way, No public warning or anything.

 

[Sibylus]

But... right now most people don't have hats.

Yes, and thus the hatted players stand out, that's the spicing up I was talking about.

Like I said. Giving all those hats to everyone even now with only three per class would increase the diversity because you'd have FOUR options (most likely three, because people will want hats, but HEY) instead of the predominantly ONE option most people have.

Plus we lived for over a year without ANY appearance customization. I think we can survive...

And furthermore, it's NOT meaningless. I would be able to look how I want. So would you. So would everyone else.

I'm not saying hats for a lot of people wouldn't be great. Come on, dude, I feel like I'm saying the same thing over and over again.

What I'm saying is that if possible, the hats could be made more accessible, but in such a way that we don't see the hats repeated constantly in-game. In other words, there will still be value to hats, they won't be as common as the unlockable weapons. Having higher value stuff makes for additional stuff to work for. Although, we've only got half the equation right now, the stuff is valuable, but it should be valuable for additional reasons beyond a random drop rate (trading/crafting prerequisites).

Giving hats to everybody strips most of the value out of them for good. If an item in question is more valuable, then it follows that it will be repeated less. The hats need only be valuable enough so that they aren't repeated constantly in-game.

Again, increasing the number of hats in the "pool" could adequately offset the force of reduced value from an increased random drop rate (lower drop rate = hats have more value due to rarity; higher drop rate = hats have less value due to decreased rarity), because individual hats wouldn't be seen as much in-game.

Sounds reasonable.

Except that doesn't really make it much easier. ): Well, maybe combined with the, wossname, trading.

The trading could feed the crafting, yesh.

 

[Twig]

You used the example that because hats were rare, we could say "the pyro with the hat is running around the corner" or whatever and it was more useful because the pyro was "unique". I was responding to that, because it made no sense!!!

P.S. the value is in their awesomeness, not their rarity. Making them not rare only pisses off the people who like to brag NYAH NYAH I'M BETTER THAN YOUUUUU

They just went about it the wrong way, No public warning or anything.

Well, to be fair it was basically like hacking the game. And it being their game, they have the right. Which is why I'm not at all upset about the lack of warning.

It's just that it was completely benign in every way. (No matter WHAT you say Botolf!!!) Which is why I'm annoyed that they've basically labeled me as a cheater.

 

[Sibylus]

No, Valve is terrible.

However i did lose a few items since i idled, i don't care though. These are all from classes i don't play and have no intention of playing. My main character doesn't even have any bloody upgrades yet.

They just went about it the wrong way, No public warning or anything.

This was the public warning, it just had teeth.

 

[evlcookie]

This was the public warning, it just had teeth.

That wasn't a warning. A warning is a big sign that says, DO THIS AND SHIT MAY HAPPEN. They skipped the warning and went straight to the shit may happen part.

I'm not too sure why valve cares to be honest.

 

[Sibylus]

Addendum to my post: It enriches the item system if not all items are of equal value and/or equal dispersion. If the system has items of differing values contained within it, it also enriches player actions within that system. Enriched system and enriched actions, both good things, no?

That wasn't a warning. A warning is a big sign that says, DO THIS AND SHIT MAY HAPPEN. They skipped the warning and went straight to the shit may happen part.

I'm not too sure why valve cares to be honest.

Yes, it was a warning. Taking away the items obtained with the program was simply a matter of course, the actual punishment happens later if you persist in the program's use (it's there in black and white in the teamfortress.com blog post).

 

[evlcookie]

But if enriched items require too much time, time that the majority of the community don't have, then why bother?

It's not like people idled for shits and giggles. They wanted hats, had they gotten them, they would have played. They got new weapons, they played.

Removing it all now makes the community want to do what exactly? Not play

 

[Twig]

Addendum to my post: It enriches the item system if not all items are of equal value and/or equal dispersion. If the system has items of differing values contained within it, it also enriches player actions within that system. Enriched system and enriched actions, both good things, no?

Doesn't enrich it for me! There's no way to earn the hats through actual gameplay. Or, rather, earning hats and playing the game can be done at the same time, but it is not required.

If it was... that'd be something else entirely. The current system (and the future, if all they do is add trading and some meaningless crafting system) completely devalues the hats as anything more than "something cool to wear". If you could actually EARN them in some way, we would not be having this argument.

Similar to how I had no objections re: earning weapons through cheesemints. I found that more fun than actually using the weapons, sometimes!

Yes, it was a warning. Taking away the items obtained with the program was simply a matter of course, the actual punishment happens later if you persist in the program's use (it's there in black and white in the teamfortress.com blog post).

The punishment was in labeling us as cheaters. Which, intentionally or not (and I'd bet it was intentional, hence the halo's name being "Cheater's Lament"!), is what they have done.

EDIT: I still commend Valve a job well done, though. They're basically griefing all of us who used the idling program. And I can't hold that against them. It's so endearing!

 

[Firestorm]

eat it bitches

No, Valve is terrible.

However i did lose a few items since i idled, i don't care though. These are all from classes i don't play and have no intention of playing. My main character doesn't even have any bloody upgrades yet.

They just went about it the wrong way, No public warning or anything.

Cheaters don't get warned. They get dealt with.

 

[Twig]

Cheaters don't get warned. They get dealt with.

And explain how it's cheating?

Please.

Be my guest.

P.S. Anything you say will be wrong.

 

[Firestorm]

And explain how it's cheating?

Please.

Be my guest.

P.S. Anything you say will be wrong.

I've never known using external programs in online to be anything other than "cheating" but sure keep justifying it. I don't see why losing what you illegitimately earned is such a big deal.

 

[Sibylus]

But if enriched items require too much time, time that the majority of the community don't have, then why bother?

It's not like people idled for shits and giggles. They wanted hats, had they gotten them, they would have played. They got new weapons, they played.

Removing it all now makes the community want to do what exactly? Not play

Doesn't enrich it for me! There's no way to earn the hats through actual gameplay. Or, rather, earning hats and playing the game can be done at the same time, but it is not required.

If it was... that'd be something else entirely. The current system (and the future, if all they do is add trading and some meaningless crafting system) completely devalues the hats as anything more than "something cool to wear". If you could actually EARN them in some way, we would not be having this argument.

Similar to how I had no objections re: earning weapons through cheesemints. I found that more fun than actually using the weapons, sometimes!

That's where the trading/crafting subsystems come in, to reduce the time spent and give players a way to push the system toward something they want. That's down the road, though, obviously, but I look forward to it. Bartering and trading away stuff I don't need for stuff I can use to earn/craft something, well, that sounds like fun to me. The weapons and the achievements and the drops have struck a nice balance already, but we're still waiting for this hat business to get balanced out.

The punishment was in labeling us as cheaters. Which, intentionally or not (and I'd bet it was intentional, hence the halo's name being "Cheater's Lament"!), is what they have done.

EDIT: I still commend Valve a job well done, though. They're basically griefing all of us who used the idling program. And I can't hold that against them. It's so endearing!

No, the real punishment is losing ALL of your items or worse things A warning is pretty weak if it doesn't remove the ill-gotten goods as a matter of course.

 

[Twig]

Protip: punishment doesn't have to be severe to be punishment.

Remember when you were a kid and your parents would tell you no dessert?

I've never known using external programs in online to be anything other than "cheating" but sure keep justifying it. I don't see why losing what you illegitimately earned is such a big deal.

Haha you thought you could troll me. ME.

 

[evlcookie]

That's where the trading/crafting subsystems come in, to reduce the time spent and give players a way to push the system toward something they want. That's down the road, though, obviously, but I look forward to it. Bartering and trading away stuff I don't need for stuff I can use to earn/craft something, well, that sounds like fun to me. The weapons and the achievements and the drops have struck a nice balance already, but we're still waiting for this hat business to get balanced out.

I'm all for this system but as you said, it isn't implemented yet. So why remove items from those who have idled?

The problem is valve created a flawed system. Had item trading been in place since day 1 we probably wouldn't be having this conversation right now. Valve fucked up and since we are on valve time, who knows when we would get the trading system. The community found a way around a flawed system with poor drop rates and now valve is trying to regain control.

Idling also isn't cheating. Cheating would suggest you gain an unfair advantage over players during a game. Hats never gave you a bonus, weapons didn't give you any advantage over anyone else, you weren't invincible and so on.

 

[Twig]

I'm all for this system but as you said, it isn't implemented yet.

I think even that system is pretty boring, gameplay-wise, but at least it makes it easier to get things.

Take what you can get, I suppose.