Shigurui is pretty good though.
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Tekken Tag Tournament 2 |OT| Awaiting the "Final Battle"
- Thread starter AAK
- Start date
GrayFoxPL
Member
Death Frenzy was awesome and by the tone I didn't recognize it was by him at first. I'm looking into Exoskull Zero, but at first it almost looks like a remake of Apocalypse Zero.
AnkiRendan
Member
Too bad Lars couldn't keep his costume designed by Kishimoto. I liked that costume, and he was my main character in Naruto UNS 2 as well. I don't think I've actually used him in Tekken though. Hm.
Yagami_Sama
Member
Tekken is really a massive game.
To many characters and millions of commands.
Also Tag assault is something pretty hard do master, at least for me.
To many characters and millions of commands.
Also Tag assault is something pretty hard do master, at least for me.
Wow what a tournament. Dammit where was Asim though!
FormallyFamicom
Member
Tag assaults aren't the most intuitive mechanic in the world for sure. It took me about a month of playing before I felt comfortable doing them. Every bit of Tekken must be taken one step at a time or it will overwhelm you.
GrayFoxPL
Member
Yeah at first it's baffling. First thing to understand is that every string used as a filler has different timing of switching back characters. Learning the timing of these combos is the key.
nailbombxx
Member
Pick a single character and stick with them. Learn their most useful moves and characteristics. Play solo if you have to. Then once you think you have the character figured out pick another one, even if it is a "clone" character.
It took me MONTHS to develop the muscle memory to manually do tag assault fillers and combos.
Yagami_Sama
Member
I am doing OK with Lili, I know most of her moves, a few combos.
I tried to choose a character that I like. And due to that I choose Kunimitsu, and after I tried Dragunov, Jaycee and Anna. But so far I could not choose a second team member.
I improve a little, avoiding, defending air combo, tag combo.
But tag assault, at least to me so far the most difficult thing. So far did not figure the time to keep the combo, like I gave one hit and the assault is over.
: /
I tried to choose a character that I like. And due to that I choose Kunimitsu, and after I tried Dragunov, Jaycee and Anna. But so far I could not choose a second team member.
I improve a little, avoiding, defending air combo, tag combo.
But tag assault, at least to me so far the most difficult thing. So far did not figure the time to keep the combo, like I gave one hit and the assault is over.
: /
FormallyFamicom
Member
Well there are a few things to understand about tag assaults. One, if you just hold the tag button down when executing one after a bound, your incoming partner will do an automatic preset tag assault move. It is rarely optimal but it gets you accustomed to having something proper happen there.
Second thing to note is that the number of hits in your combo pre-bound can sometimes cause your tag assault filler to not hit fully or whiff completely. Understanding exactly how many hits you need to optimize your combos really can only come with time and experience. Just the same, the type of moves you use in your combo can influence if the combo will work. Certain high damage moves cause a ton of pushback that make continuation impossible.
After the tag assault filler, you regain control of your starting character and hit the opponent with whatever you want that will reach. Usually a really strong string or something that will keep them close for easier opportunities to hit the opponent while grounded. This type of optimization also can only come with time.
A third thing to note is during the tag assult filler period, if you are trying to execute it manually you have to perform a string as defined by the game. Consecutive individual hits won't work. For example, you can't use 1,1 (jab, jab) with Lili as a tag assault filler; the filler will stop after the first jab. You can use something like 1,2 which is an actual string (btw I wouldn't recommend using that haha). There are ways to "cheat" the system and continue tag assault filler with stance cancels but this is a more advanced technique and something you don't have to worry about right now.
I'd suggest at first to not even bother with them until you feel very comfortable with regular combos first. Get your launch, combo filler, bounds and enders down. When you're in total control of that, you can start applying the automatic tag assault fillers to your combos, and then either look up some videos or ask in here for more optimal combos with your team. After you've put the time in and your hands are comfortable executing combos in the game, adjusting your combos to add tag assaults comes a bit more naturally.
I went through Fight Lab and read the strategy guide and watched tons of matches and it still took me a few weeks to properly execute even a simple tag assault. I spent a lot of time in practice mode working on a BnB tag assault combo, and it took maybe 2 months of playing before I nailed it in an online match perfectly. It was the first game I played that night and I was so happy that I just quit playing after that lol.
One more thing about tag assaults. They are of course important to learn, but try not to be reckless with them. Please understand that every time you use one you are willingly giving your opponent's partner a damage boost with rage, and sacrificing any recoverable health and rage you may have. Knowing that, when you choose to do one you want to make sure it counts and that it does good damage and that you won't drop it. Hence why to wait until you're comfortable doing combos in general before truly applying it to your game (of course, use it as much as you want while learning).
As far as your character choices go, yeah it's a tough go at the start. I actually went through every move of every character in T6 a month before TTT2 came out to decide who I wanted as a team (I decided on Lili and Dragunov). Who to recommend all depends on what you're looking for and what you are comfortable with. I do know that mechanically Kunimitsu is one of the easiest characters in the game, and she's got some flashy stuff so she's not a bad partner. Asuka and Leo have good synergy with Lili. Then there are your other basic stable of characters to choose from that work with just about anyone on the roster (Jinpachi, Lars, Miguel, Bruce, Armor King). Jack and Paul are also super simple, but I don't know how well they work with Lili personally.
Wow, that was spectacularly written Famicom! You deserve a medal.
But for me... I sorta feel kinda ashamed. I didn't think I'd get this addicted but here it is:
And this doesn't even count how much Tekken I played offline at gathers and tournaments....I guess I should stop and maybe go to the gym instead or something...but dammit there's so much more I want to learn from this game!
But for me... I sorta feel kinda ashamed. I didn't think I'd get this addicted but here it is:
And this doesn't even count how much Tekken I played offline at gathers and tournaments....I guess I should stop and maybe go to the gym instead or something...but dammit there's so much more I want to learn from this game!
nailbombxx
Member
GrayFox just told you all that you need to know at this point but let me emphasize that you should focus on automatic tag assault fillers at this point. Depending on your character choices, you may or may not get a super useful tag filler, but what it will do is help you understand how to end the combos after your second character comes in.
So essentially you hold the tag button down as you do a bound move and keep it held down, and the character that tags in will do a preset string. Then after the automatic tag filler has been executed you can advance and finish the combo with a string of your own on the juggled enemy. This requires much less muscle memory than manual tag assault combos but it is vital to understanding how to do them.
Once you are comfortable with doing auto tag assault combo you can take it a step further and practice doing real tag assault combos.
MrCookiepants
Member
Damn AAK. I thought my 562 hours was bad. 
But you probably actually got better in your time with the game whereas I've learned nothing.
But you probably actually got better in your time with the game whereas I've learned nothing.
Yagami_Sama
Member
Thank you very much, this was best lecture I ever got. Helped me to see things more clearly.
GrayFoxPL
Member
I'm pissed off. Almost every day they're doing some kind of maintenance right when I'm playing. This doesn't disconnect match, but doesn't upload data at the end resulting in penalty, whenever I win or lose. Then you can't get online, sometimes even for close to an hour. Revolution also doesn't work at the time. What are they doing?!
It's also kind of funny, when you come back and see everyone with 3,3% disconnect rate because of that server craziness.
Also, what's up with all the Ganryu's online lately? Some new top tier bewagon?
It's also kind of funny, when you come back and see everyone with 3,3% disconnect rate because of that server craziness.
Also, what's up with all the Ganryu's online lately? Some new top tier bewagon?
@ Famicom - Superb write-up.
@Yagami - I wanted to get those Lili/Kunimitsu combos to you earlier but I didn't go home this past weekend. Will try to get those done as soon as I can. If you are having trouble finding a partner for Lili, just use Sebastian for the time being. He plays almost exactly like Lili.
@ AAK. I checked my hours and I was at 900+. I'll be at 1000 soon enough. Not ashamed of it either since it's the only game I really played since September 2012. Almost every moment in this game justified my interest in gaming, a hobby that I'm generally otherwise getting bored of.
It usually happens to me in the middle of playing matches - online will suddenly stop working. It's annoying but at least they're maintaining their servers I guess.
@Yagami - I wanted to get those Lili/Kunimitsu combos to you earlier but I didn't go home this past weekend. Will try to get those done as soon as I can. If you are having trouble finding a partner for Lili, just use Sebastian for the time being. He plays almost exactly like Lili.
@ AAK. I checked my hours and I was at 900+. I'll be at 1000 soon enough. Not ashamed of it either since it's the only game I really played since September 2012. Almost every moment in this game justified my interest in gaming, a hobby that I'm generally otherwise getting bored of.
I'm pissed off. Almost every day they're doing some kind of maintenance right when I'm playing. This doesn't disconnect match, but doesn't upload data at the end resulting in penalty, whenever I win or lose. Then you can't get online, sometimes even for close to an hour. Revolution also doesn't work at the time. What are they doing?!
It's also kind of funny, when you come back and see everyone with 3,3% disconnect rate because of that server craziness.
Also, what's up with all the Ganryu's online lately? Some new top tier bewagon?
It usually happens to me in the middle of playing matches - online will suddenly stop working. It's annoying but at least they're maintaining their servers I guess.
Yagami_Sama
Member
It is cool. Take your time.
The major issue to find a partner for her, it is because I need to like how the character looks. But I will give a try and test Sebastian.
I played with Asuka and Jun, and both seems to be very good.
Thanks again !
The major issue to find a partner for her, it is because I need to like how the character looks. But I will give a try and test Sebastian.
I played with Asuka and Jun, and both seems to be very good.
Thanks again !
Yagami_Sama
Member
Sebastian it is pretty funny...
Just Bruce uses Muay Thai ?
Just Bruce uses Muay Thai ?
GrayFoxPL
Member
Yeah. In Tekken 3 Bryan replaced Bruce, taking over his moves. Since then Bryan got his own style and Bruce turned from Tong Po to Tony Jaa. But Bryan still is very knee and elbow heavy. Kinda cyborg-kickboxer.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
I'm pissed off. Almost every day they're doing some kind of maintenance right when I'm playing. This doesn't disconnect match, but doesn't upload data at the end resulting in penalty, whenever I win or lose. Then you can't get online, sometimes even for close to an hour. Revolution also doesn't work at the time. What are they doing?!
It's also kind of funny, when you come back and see everyone with 3,3% disconnect rate because of that server craziness.
Also, what's up with all the Ganryu's online lately? Some new top tier bewagon?
Yeah, I've been experiencing problems as well. It can be infuriating and annoying. I have been having serious problems with matches disconnecting and lagging despite having a 4 to 5 bar connection lately. I was invited by some friends last night and it kept saying the session is no longer available no matter who did the inviting and IF I got into the room, it disconnected or disbanded the room almost immediately. Also, I literally couldn't find a match for at least 10 minutes in ranked or player matches recently. @-@ Ghost town or server issues?
Tekken Revolution seemed like it was working fine despite some lagging here and there, but I played that a few days ago.
Yeah, I've been fighting a lot of Ganryu's online also. Pretty unexpected. Even one of my friends just started using him recently. Maybe they discovered that he is top tier or something.
GrayFoxPL
Member
Yeah something is off. Revolution disconnects very often for me, Tag2 rarely, but often connection goes to shit. (I blame other players
)Are they preparing third game to work on the same servers? Would be funny if Namco rented Tekken servers for Smash. But if they are using those servers for other f2p games like Ridge Racer and Ace Combat, online will go to shit. "Error uploading, have a penalty!"
On Ganryu - is this screen real?
http://www.avoidingthepuddle.com/news/2014/1/29/team-green-arcade-enters-matador-cup-5.html
Nin and Saint using Ganryu now?
Maybe that's why peeps are jumping on sumo.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
Yeah something is off. Revolution disconnects very often for me, Tag2 rarely, but often connection goes to shit. (I blame other players
Are they preparing third game to work on the same servers? Would be funny if Namco rented Tekken servers for Smash. But if they are using those servers for other f2p games like Ridge Racer and Ace Combat, online will go to shit. "Error uploading, have a penalty!"
On Ganryu - is this screen real?
http://www.avoidingthepuddle.com/news/2014/1/29/team-green-arcade-enters-matador-cup-5.html
Nin and Saint using Ganryu now?
Maybe that's why peeps are jumping on sumo.
Haha, that could be what's going on with this game now and I take back what I said earlier. Tekken Revolution did end up disconnecting on me once or twice recently. Tekken Revolution disconnecting is worst for me because that game uses up coins. To be truthfully honest with you, TTT2 netcode has gotten considerably worst since Tekken Revolution came out with no signs of improvement. Hopefully, nothing else like Tekken X SF or Smash will clog up the servers any further or it could render Tekken games virtually unplayable online.
Recently, TTT2 was not allowing me to join any rooms via invites also and the same applied to friends I typically play online. Also, going back to Tekken 6 or Tekken 5: DR was a big mistake. >: { Let's just say I got disconnected about 8 times consecutively and had about 5 laggerific sessions with buddies online and sometimes we didn't even finish all rounds. Tekken 5
R? Disconnected about 6 times and I think we had about 3 full matches until we couldn't even accept invites anymore once again. Yeah man, something is going on. That screen looks legitimate to me. That's probably it. Everyone is jumping aboard the Ganryu train since the top players are using him.
Most of my fiends only use the "so called" top tier characters. Funny thing is, my two friends who invited me used the EXACT same team of Bob/Ganryu and Steve/Ganryu when they fought against me. Coincidence? Probably not lol.I thought I was the only one with disconnection issues D:
Played with AAK last night and every 2-3 fights I would be disconnected and thrown out of the room. Also on ranked matches, I would often get a message saying "Ein Kommunikationsfehler ist aufgetreten", which says that there's a problem communicating with the server.
The only problem I think is my router's fault is that I can't invite any players, although I have DMZ turned on. It's strange, but I hope it can be solved by connecting the PS3 with LAN.
Played with AAK last night and every 2-3 fights I would be disconnected and thrown out of the room. Also on ranked matches, I would often get a message saying "Ein Kommunikationsfehler ist aufgetreten", which says that there's a problem communicating with the server.
The only problem I think is my router's fault is that I can't invite any players, although I have DMZ turned on. It's strange, but I hope it can be solved by connecting the PS3 with LAN.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
Yeah, that does sound perturbingly familiar. I certainly hope it isn't my router. I just replaced a few months ago and everything else from internet to download speed is admirably fast.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
Hi guys. Could soembody tell me who are some of the top Leo players that I could look up for match vids? Need some inspiration.
Nin and Saint using Ganryu now?
Maybe that's why peeps are jumping on sumo.
Saint won the Tekken global championships with him and Nin's used Ganryu before.
Oh and turn on your psn notifications
This channel has videos of most top Korean players, check for Leo users there: http://www.youtube.com/user/taktak1893
GrayFoxPL
Member
Saint won the Tekken global championships with him and Nin's used Ganryu before.
Oh and turn on your psn notifications
This channel has videos of most top Korean players, check for Leo users there: http://www.youtube.com/user/taktak1893
I think I have them on.
I had your msg from 2 days ago, but it was when I already was offline for an hour. Not sure how you sent it.
I sent one today as well.
GrayFoxPL
Member
Today? Definitely didn't see it. What time?
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
Thanks.
Flying Wonkey continuing to provide the goods and Harada continuing to hold on to his silly stubbornness on this subject.
http://www.avoidingthepuddle.com/news/2014/2/4/harada-on-revealing-frame-data-in-tekken-games.html
http://www.avoidingthepuddle.com/news/2014/2/4/harada-on-revealing-frame-data-in-tekken-games.html
I am actually in agreement in Harada on this...
1. He's right that frames isn't the whole story, and I'm always mentioning it to people around. You got pushback, crushes, hitbox, and hitrange issues to deal with that it's better to test it yourself.
Putting startup and recovery frames in the game also amplify its perceived importance, making it the end-all-be-all data that newbs need to be the master of the game, which is not the case. If that's the case, then either they need to include all the game data, from crush frames, hit/hurtboxes, and such (which is a pain in the dev't budget, and also counterproductive if you don't want to overwhelm the newbs, as if startup and recovery frames wasn't even enough to overwhelm them)
OR you can just let people test it out. Not only testing that yourself gives you better results (and makes it more ingrained to your muscle memory), you also get the satisfaction of discovering something new, and with that, we are hooked...
2. Hiding frame data DOES lengthen the game's lifespan. Just by us talking about this topic proves that. New people coming in and asking how punishable something is makes the game active. If we already know everything, there is no reason for me or anyone else to talk in the twitchchat, go to this thread, TZ, KTA or even ask Tekken vets on Twitter. Just trying to look it up on RBNorway and give them views or supporting Tekken Chicken helps.
3. And this is what I'm frustrated about the way some other people teach Tekken. They tend to EMPHASIZE TOO MUCH on frame data. I hated that because you reduce the game into this mere mathematical equation that seems to be as hard as solving a nonhomogeneous systems differential equation, while having no idea why this numbers mean anything. It makes the game tedious, overwhelming, and less fun, which it shouldn't be.
This is the same reason people are scared of Math, as people look at the numbers and the symbols instead of trying to understand what they represent and trying to see the whole picture of what an equation says.
I applaud Harada for this... He is a thinking man...
FormallyFamicom
Member
The greatest flaw in Harada's logic about hiding the frame data is that we already have the frame data. Not putting it into the game doesn't lengthen the discovery process, it obfuscates the learning process. Putting frames in the game doesn't mean you have to adhere by them, it's just an additional tool to help people who like to think in terms of numbers get to the meat of the game faster.
This is one of the things VF5FS did beautifully. It doesn't give you a list of frames, but in training mode you have the option of showing the frames of whichever attacks you execute. You're still testing to find results, but now your testing goes a lot quicker with actual hard data by your side. And frames aren't even that important in VF since so much stuff is safe.
And really, who actually likes discussion about frames? It's a necessary evil. Just put it in the game and then we can discuss other more important aspects of the game. People are just asking for the option. Tekken is supposed to be about having options, right?
This is one of the things VF5FS did beautifully. It doesn't give you a list of frames, but in training mode you have the option of showing the frames of whichever attacks you execute. You're still testing to find results, but now your testing goes a lot quicker with actual hard data by your side. And frames aren't even that important in VF since so much stuff is safe.
And really, who actually likes discussion about frames? It's a necessary evil. Just put it in the game and then we can discuss other more important aspects of the game. People are just asking for the option. Tekken is supposed to be about having options, right?
GrayFoxPL
Member
Yeah, frame data isn't all know how. Doesn't incorporate the fact of push on block or turning opponent off axis, crush properities, evasivenes etc. Or how walls are game changer, like when move X pushes back opponent on block 2 dashes away making it safe. Same move done at the wall can't push away making for free launch for rival.
Btw some sites frame data differs, like ATP notes Lee's ws+2,3 as -14 and that other site (google first choice) says it's - 16. Seeing how I get lauched every time with online lag included I'd say it's likely.
Not to say frame data is not very important to understand how to play better. It is, especially plus frames that expand your options for attack while limiting opponent's.
Btw some sites frame data differs, like ATP notes Lee's ws+2,3 as -14 and that other site (google first choice) says it's - 16. Seeing how I get lauched every time with online lag included I'd say it's likely.
Not to say frame data is not very important to understand how to play better. It is, especially plus frames that expand your options for attack while limiting opponent's.
Actually it looks like I fucked up and sent it to the wrong person this time
DEATH™;99677606 said:
No doubt that frames don't tell the whole story. I just don't see that as a good reason to obscure it. People don't only argue for the frames when it comes to moves (Hello Hei f,f+2) and the ones that do are usually corrected by the ones that know better. If this were a real concern, then the communities for other fighting games that expose their frame data would be marred with this, but they're not.
There is nothing overwhelming about adding frame data to training mode. Once again, Virtua Fighter is the best example of a game that does this and it is VERY straight forward. Sure you can test it out yourself (for the most part at least), but then you're just artificially adding this dumb time sink to hold people back from discovering the depth of your game. A noob doesn't have to jump in and understand all of the frame data right away, but having this arbitrary barrier for them to learn on top of all the other nuances of Tekken? THAT is overwhelming.
The satisfaction from discovering something new is still there. Things like testing out ranges and spacing to make moves safe(r), learning crush frames, learning when it's safe to sidestep from various ranges, finally learning proper backturned data, etc...
Once again, it's an arbitrary barrier to extend the life span of the game. There have already been a few games with long (if not longer than Tekken) life spans that have exposed their frame data. New people go into VFDC all the time and still ask tons of questions about that game despite having the frame data available. If this stupid hurdle wasn't around for newer players to run though, we would probably have a much stronger scene because new players can get to the meat of the game much quicker and actually talk about strategy and mindgames rather than this nonsense.
People emphasize learning the frame data, because not learning the frame data will lead to you making stupid decisions while playing. If you were teaching someone Chess, you would put a pretty big emphasis on how the pieces move, especially if that person thinks they can only move diagonally with the Queen. Even top players that used to ignore it (Anakin, GM) knew that they had to eventually put that information into their game to improve it.
In a Math class, there's a teacher there to (assuming that he/she is doing their job right) explain to you what those numbers represent. The problem with frame data in this situation is that nearly every fighting game has never bothered to explain what they actually mean. That one falls on the developers.
I don't applaud this case of stubborn old man syndrome.
Put in the frame data or not... I personally don't mind as much. At least make a practice mode that I can use to test the frame data myself. How it was done in TTT2 was fine.
But I will be honest, having an official frame data does have significantly more advantages than disadvantages.
But I will be honest, having an official frame data does have significantly more advantages than disadvantages.
Well, you can already pretty much do that in the current training mode. What I would like to see is the ability to turn on random counter hits to work on practicing animation based counter hit confirmable strings.
GrayFoxPL
Member
You can't without second player or I'm missing something. Random counter is an option, unless I'm seeing things.
Yes you can with a little bit of your own programming
Go on defensive training in practice mode, and set the CPU to do a 1 break, 2 break, and 1+2 break on 3 of the 5 command capture slots. For the other 2 slots I set the CPU to do a generic d/f+1 and d/f+2 on the other slots to train myself to differentiate between a grab animation and a punch animation all while simultaneously learning how to break throws on reaction.Once I am relatively comfortable with that I'm gonna take the training to the next level by making the the CPU Jinpachi and instead of doing d/f+1.... do d/f+1,1! And that alone made things sooooo much harder. Because then I'm training my brain to break throws, differentiate jabs vs grabs, AND ducking high strings on reaction. It's incredibly taxing on the mind right now, but it does seem like a necessary step to becoming a better player.
As for the random counter hit thing.... I think I remember seeing an option for that in the training mode, not sure though.
GrayFoxPL
Member
Yes you can with a little bit of your own programming
Once I am relatively comfortable with that I'm gonna take the training to the next level by making the the CPU Jinpachi and instead of doing d/f+1.... do d/f+1,1! And that alone made things sooooo much harder. Because then I'm training my brain to break throws, differentiate jabs vs grabs, AND ducking high strings on reaction. It's incredibly taxing on the mind right now, but it does seem like a necessary step to becoming a better player.
As for the random counter hit thing.... I think I remember seeing an option for that in the training mode, not sure though.
Wait, if I set cpu throws on different slots he will randomize them? Never knew that, though he does everything linear so I never tried. Thanks!
Option for counter is on/off/random, I think.
Oh yeah defensive training is always randomized, and it's VERY important that you make the timing into random as well. That way you are actually reacting to the animation, and not the preset timings ingrained in your memory.
I suppose if is too hard initially you can set the timing to fast/medium/slow and keep getting the animation in constant intervals, but it's much more beneficial to keep it at random
I suppose if is too hard initially you can set the timing to fast/medium/slow and keep getting the animation in constant intervals, but it's much more beneficial to keep it at random
GrayFoxPL
Member
Oh yeah defensive training is always randomized, and it's VERY important that you make the timing into random as well. That way you are actually reacting to the animation, and not the preset timings ingrained in your memory.
I suppose if is too hard initially you can set the timing to fast/medium/slow and keep getting the animation in constant intervals, but it's much more beneficial to keep it at random
Random is no green bars?
1. The question is, who's providing the frame data? It's the folks at ina-tekken, rbnorway/OffinBed, noodalls and testers all around the world. They are discussing this stuff, making new ways to discovering them and correcting each other. Basically, it's a community work, and we support them by giving them clicks or downloading their apps. As the developer, don't you want this? It's basically giving other people a chance to shine in the community.
2. Actually, I find Hit Analysis to be the tool for that. I think it's far more valuable than raw frame data in a sense. Not only it promotes "playing by feel", but also because it actually treat block stuns and recovery frames as separate entities. Example is Yoshi b+2,2. It's -14, but frame data doesn't tell you that it got a pretty long block stun that if you input a move a bit too early, it might not come out (EWGF) or the move might get a different input (King b+1,2). There's other moves like many of Miguel's moves that exhibit this same thing. That's why in the end people gotta practice...
This is why I think people are gonna get overwhelmed when Namco decides to include frame data. It's not just -14 like we make it out to be, it's sum of block stun and recovery stun, and recovery stun also varies too, when you consider moves with active frames, crush properties, hurtboxes and status (technically jumping/crouching/standing).
3. Ask noodals lol. But seriously whether people like it or not, we are talking about it. Look, Harada's right that it kills the discovery period of the game. If we got frame data readily available INGAME, then would a newbie asking Rip in a session/stream of how punishable a move is, happen? They can even test the thing out right there and then. Would a guy like me not download Tekken Chicken due to it? How about the people who find ina-tekken inaccurate?
Believe it or not, those little things aren't just frame data discussion. They are social experiences. And those social experiences add to the game experience. We are talking to another person, not the computer. Giving things away like this in game deprives us of the times where we shout "WTF Feng is cheap" in front of our friends, or searching something up and finally punishing a move you got trouble with. Those ecstacy/frustration/experiences becomes associated with Tekken, and in part, makes Tekken, well, Tekken...
This is why I applaud Harada. Can't expect anything less from a psychology major.
Responses in bold
Green bars just show the frequency of the move. I.e. if you have one move set to 3 green bars, and a second move set to 1 green bar, then that means that the CPU is 3 times more likely to do the first move rather than the second move.
The random interval thing I'm talking about is the first option in the defensive training option after the cpu settings, it's called "Interval". It can be set to slow/normal/fast/random. I meant to have that setting placed on random. That will make sure you have no way of anticipating "when" the cpu will input the move. If you leave it at normal, then the cpu will do the move like every 2 seconds which in the end allows you to anticipate when the throw will be coming out rather than watching out for the animation.
Man, writing all this makes me realize how important communications skills can be. haha.
EDIT: One thing I don't like about the "frames add discovery to the game" argument is that it sets a very dangerous precedent. The logic can then be applied to so many other things like the move list for example. Why post the movelist at all when you can let the people discover it themselves and hence that "discovery" is more enjoyable for them. The same thing can also be applied to Tekken 6 saying it has a more enjoyable aspect of discovery than TTT2 because it gave a very shitty practice mode that forced you to "discover" everything in real matches instead of giving the tools to figure them out like in TTT2. Just my opinion in the matter. It's kinda pointless after this to discuss it since Harada has a firm stance on it.
As for the comment about the community benefiting from this lack of information by doing it themselves and getting CPM/subscriptions from it... I'm pretty sure a vast majority of them can spend that same time they spent compiling/testing/posting all the framedata into other valuable content that includes tutorials, setups, match vid analysis, etc and still get that support. I don't think the community loses anything at all from an official frame data source.
Yeah, that's kinda the point... and that's also one of the reasons arcades thrive for a long period of time (without consoles of course). There is no movelists, no hit analysis, nothing. There is pretty much infinite replayability on the game.
And yeah, making tutorials gives you clicks too. People still visit RBNorway from time to time. And of course, Tekken Chicken too. Official Frame Data ruins that. It's something that Namco will gain only a nickel of and loses more, while the community also runs out of anything to research. Community benefits more of searching the frame data (and just game content in that matter) for themselves, and Namco is more than happy when a brand like Tekken still cause social traffic that way.
EDIT: Also thanks for the tip man... I might need that random interval for throwbreaking more. It's hard to break throws especially when I am training myself to break by rhythm. I tend to get thrown in a match alot of times before I finally get to break some, but them it's too late lol