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Tekken Tag Tournament 2 |OT| Awaiting the "Final Battle"
- Thread starter AAK
- Start date
There's a big thing I disagree with, a game should NOT be designed to provide low-level button mashers to play on equal footing with a more skilled opponent.
As for the combo-breaker, what's the risk then of people trying to mash to break out of juggles? In Mortal Kombat, it takes 66% of your meter to break (and in MKX full stamina bar too), in Killer Instinct there's lock-outs and counter breakers, in DOA if you're grabbed during a hold you take 50% more damage. Rewarding a player for mashing is not good game design. Even then, I'm not a fan of combo breakers, poor defense should have its punishment. Also in Tekken, the moves used during juggles are relatively slow. Because of that, it'll be way too easy to read to simply react to the move coming and break out for free.
And you can't compare juggles to throws. Throws are unblockable, are very fast, and can lead to tons to damage. Juggles starters are slower and unsafe on block usually and there's always some risk associated with them.
Master Thespian
Member
Add another person to the "juggle breaks are terrible" camp. When you fuck up, you deserve to get fucked up.
AAK was right, Tekken 4 looks fucking incredible
lmao
EDIT: IMO, if they remove bound in Tekken 7 and the combos are like Tekken Revolution, I wouldn't mind the change.
Terareflection
Member
I haven't been around this thread much, and I haven't played any of you lately aside from Manny, don't worry, I have just been really frustrated with the game lately.
GrayFoxPL
Member
DEATH;122231251 said:
You still didn't show anything that would prove your claims. Not only you say I provided vid that shows supposedly long Tag1 combo but now you're making up rules. No "wall carry" Tag2 characters now? So who exactly is left to prove this technically impossible feat? Kazuya and Bear? What's the next rule? No bound? No Tag Assault? Blindfold? Are you gonna get so desperate to find longest possible Tag1 combo and compare it to shortest possible Tag2 one to prove this nonsense?
Seriously either prove how Tag1 combos are comparable in length or stop going this absurd path. Tag 2 has longest combos the series incomparable with anything and if there's a match with long ass tag combo, wall carry, wall combo, floor break it suddenly doesn't count for you? And how often you can see that situation in Tag 2? Like almost all the time since the game is riddled with those and you can't count it out, you can't reduce the amount of time it takes just because it is not by some childish rule you just made.
I get frustrated with the game regardless of winning or losing, so I'm with you on that camp. Only reason I've been playing some lately is to try to keep my mind sharp for this Marduk video tutorial that I'm gonna do when I stop being a lazy piece of shit.
NinthPixel
Member
After putting a hole in my wall and breaking my knuckles has me hoping the Tekken 7 is a big change. Hopefully going back to Solo will be the only thing I need. My wishlist?
0. Ling Xiaoyu to return as a playable fighter.
1. No Hopkicks
No one uses such things in a real fight and they aren't cool looking. Alisa, Bruce, JayCee, Jun, King, Lars, Lei, Miguel and others are awesome character designs that are lost because of hopkick. A similar blueprint works well for balance, but it is depressing to learn the whole cast and find more than half being very alike in a practical sense (has only gotten worse as Harada has passed around more hopkicks).
2. Useful Ki Charge
Looks cool, especially after the revamping and personalizing of animations. However, Harada needs to do something with it. A page out of Soul Calibur II would be nice. Particularly the part about it giving strong properties to certain moves in a character's movelist.
3. Tekken Force Tag
A Tekken Force character team in the roster to keep Tag players interested in a Solo Tekken. The comedic relief of Tekken could be placed on their shoulders. Being sure to make them viable of course, but their in-game communication back and forth could be lots of laughs (Reepal's big chance to be a voice actor?).
0. Ling Xiaoyu to return as a playable fighter.
1. No Hopkicks
No one uses such things in a real fight and they aren't cool looking. Alisa, Bruce, JayCee, Jun, King, Lars, Lei, Miguel and others are awesome character designs that are lost because of hopkick. A similar blueprint works well for balance, but it is depressing to learn the whole cast and find more than half being very alike in a practical sense (has only gotten worse as Harada has passed around more hopkicks).
2. Useful Ki Charge
Looks cool, especially after the revamping and personalizing of animations. However, Harada needs to do something with it. A page out of Soul Calibur II would be nice. Particularly the part about it giving strong properties to certain moves in a character's movelist.
3. Tekken Force Tag
A Tekken Force character team in the roster to keep Tag players interested in a Solo Tekken. The comedic relief of Tekken could be placed on their shoulders. Being sure to make them viable of course, but their in-game communication back and forth could be lots of laughs (Reepal's big chance to be a voice actor?).
LowParry
Member
Wut? C'mon. She's completely playable. She just doesn't dish out good damage like other characters. You really should try her out in Revolution. I like that version of her.
Oh how I miss the taunt counter though.
He has tried her out in Revolution and he's very good with her.
While they are used for that, that wasn't exactly ever their purpose. Most characters with hopkicks have other 15f launch options for punishment.
Personally, I don't care if they stay or go, but I do want something to be done to make punishing them easier. Something that gets thrown out so often and nets such a high reward should be much easier to punish. Give a little more block stun so people can actually react with 13f punishers consistently. I would love to make hopkick spammers pay with Marduk's d/f4,2 without having to worry about getting launched because I messed up the incredibly short window given to input it. They should also have worse recovery on whiff for many of the same reasons in my opinion.
Yes, combo-breaking will not work. They already tried that with True Ogre in TTT2 and it is dumb as hell.
Back to the drawing board Menome.
Ahahaha, this has me rolling. Grayfox, why you so hilarious?
Back to the drawing board Menome.
Ahahaha, this has me rolling. Grayfox, why you so hilarious?
MikeBreezy92
Member
True Ogre's had that since TTT1, its not really a combo breaker either....
Hopkicks don't need to be removed, they do need to be more punishable though.
Hmmm.. I didn't know that......or probably don't remember it since it was so long ago.
Edit: Epic Games Japan is co-developing Tekken 7? News to me.
https://www.unrealengine.com/blog/ue4-powered-tekken-7-announced-at-evo-2014
I more than often catch true ogre players trying to fight their way out of it. And then I get a longer combo and another bound with Tag Assault.
If I was a TO player, I would only use the flight when I know I'm in a combo that will kill me.
https://www.unrealengine.com/blog/ue4-powered-tekken-7-announced-at-evo-2014
I more than often catch true ogre players trying to fight their way out of it. And then I get a longer combo and another bound with Tag Assault.
If I was a TO player, I would only use the flight when I know I'm in a combo that will kill me.
You guys need to see this FT10 between my fav player Starscream against RooKang:
www.twitch.tv/thewonderpark/b/550139807?t=1h34m
Textbook examples of how bad tagging will kill you even if you're more skilled than the other player.
1. My opinion, if the hopkick crushes a move, then it shouldn't launch. Same thing with any crush move. Treat them like invincibles in TR.
2. Ki Charges still have a place I feel. Especially with Tag assault, there are so many set ups people have hit me with. I think they're legit.
I think Epic helps out any developer that licenses Unreal.
www.twitch.tv/thewonderpark/b/550139807?t=1h34m
Textbook examples of how bad tagging will kill you even if you're more skilled than the other player.
1. My opinion, if the hopkick crushes a move, then it shouldn't launch. Same thing with any crush move. Treat them like invincibles in TR.
2. Ki Charges still have a place I feel. Especially with Tag assault, there are so many set ups people have hit me with. I think they're legit.
I think Epic helps out any developer that licenses Unreal.
Dude, my internet is barely allowing me to get matches in a netcode as divine as TTT2... you DO NOT want to play in the gutter netcode of T6 with me.
Also, I gave my copy away
FormallyFamicom
Member
I have T6. Never played it at the level I play TTT2 though. Only played it for a few months before TTT2 in the first place.
Dude, if you play T6 with the skill you learned from TTT2 you'll be sweating every match, you need to play with me.
Damn
Dude, my internet is barely allowing me to get matches in a netcode as divine as TTT2... you DO NOT want to play in the gutter netcode of T6 with me.
Also, I gave my copy away
FormallyFamicom
Member
I'll give it a try.
1. Wall carry chars = Nina and Lee for example. Yes those juggles are long and it deservingly so, have to reward hard work. (And as TRev proves, it doesn't matter if there is no bound, such characters WILL get their wall carries and hence will not be confined in the system)
2. Again, Tag 1 combos is comparable in hindsight to Tag 2 solo combos. and again, it's unfair to compare every single combos in Tag 2 because there is no walls in Tag 1 (which DR combos are a way better comparison). The things you keep saying is truly combo vid material combos, not combos you see in a match. And to even pull such combo in a match requires stage awareness, dexterity, and large amount of practice. Not to mention in Tag 1 days, Internet is at its infancy so new juggles isn't as widespread and evolving as quick. (Korean TTT1 matches are crazier that they literally do skate in the stage while doing maximized combos that is considered hard on that time).
This is why I keep saying in hindsight, because unlike earlier games, combos now are harder to pull off and rewarded in such different way. Those long combos you speak off is something that happens only in select situations by skilled players, and to exploit those things is something that's admirable yet questionable because those combos can be dropped easier (and we see them time to time). Compare it to Tag 1 where you can do the same combos over and over again (which again, same hits, same time as Tag 2/BR open combos) and no walls to consider (, and the only variation is when you drop combos for tech traps. And if you really want to remove such things, then you are asking for a game with no walls or interactibles, which is honestly backwards if you ask me.
Again, if I have a recorder, I would like to do a combo vid for BnBs for Tag 1, DR and Tag 2. But then I play King so you won't be satisfied with low tier combo goodness lol. Changs though lololol...
THIS. I won't mind hopkicks be -14 since it's so darn hard to punish. Even at -13, even jabs are missing punishes. If hopkicks are made more punishable or at least stay at -13 but reanimated so the block stun is long enough for players to react will be a nice thing...
FormallyFamicom
Member
I mean, it's still Tekken. Fun as always. All the little changes were messing with me though, especially that stiff movement.
Yes, combo-breaking will not work. They already tried that with True Ogre in TTT2 and it is dumb as hell.
Back to the drawing board Menome.
Any other ideas?
Because I only just woke up and forgot to take off score-through...one second and it'll all have been a dream...
Any other ideas?
I'm totally on board for jetpacks.
It feels weird to be called old school. Dunno if I would label myself as that, but I guess I just have a different perspective.
As far as your question goes, I think normalizing jabs definitely helped the game overall. You go from a game that has 8f NCC launchers to a game where there are no 10f NCC launchers (although Lee's 2,2,3 did juggle damage in T6), and it's hard to not feel like it's a good change.
It wasn't just about that CH launchers though. Jab pressure in DR was freakin weird. 10f jabs were +3 on block while 8f jabs were only +1. You would think that this would make everything play out similarly to the way that it does now, but then you also have to remember that there was a severe lack of strong 11f - 13f power moves in DR. Sure, a few characters had 13f launchers, but there wasn't a whole lot of moves that could take advantage of that +3 while there are plenty of moves that take advantage of +1 in T6 and Tag 2.
Just a simple stand jab into crouch jab was 100 times scarier to attempt in DR because low parry punches gave everyone a free 16 frames to do whatever the hell they wanted to you, so there was a way safer option than just attempting to crush it. Even if your opponent decide to get crush happy and just hopkick you though, it's not like they were -13 back then. For the most part, 95% of the cast only got jab punish for blocking them.
There's probably a lot of stuff that I'm forgetting because it's been so long, and I wasn't knowledgeable enough to really appreciate, or hate more things from back then, but from what I do remember, normalizing jabs, along with filling in the gaps for punishment across most of the cast, were changes for the better.
Speaking strictly from a 10 frame mishima player
8 frames jabs in TTT (god like movement + no walls + no crush system ) - no issue between 10 framers/8framers thanks to no walls/movement
8 frames jabs in T4 (horrible movement + walls + no crush system) - broke the game if you were a 10 framer, you couldn't even d+1 vs steve's unrelenting 1,2,1 because of no crush system and korean backdashing is non-existent.
8 frame jabs in t5 (great movement + walls + crush system) - Felt balanced, I felt it was very balanced because movement helped vs 8 frame jabs on top of crush but still felt very annoying to fight.
Universal 10 frames in Tekken 6 (horrible movement + walls + crush system) - Balanced but thanks to the sluggish movement of Tekken 6, jabs even universally at 10 frames were overly used and dominated 90% of matches (bob, steve, and lars spamming jabs is what most tournament finals boiled down to). ugh, thank goodness 8 frames didn't make a return here, it would be Tekken 4 part 2. Bob with 8 frame jabs? No thanks.
10 frames in TTT2 (Great movement + walls + crush system + 2 character system) - Jabs are good in certain situation but not the end game like it was in Tekken 6 thanks to more health, movement buff, and bigger stages.
That's my perspective on 8 frame jabs and jabs in general, I think they got it down correctly in TTT2 because people had to go for bigger launches/pokes to hurt the enemy rather than use jab as the main source of damage. I think it was for the better that they gave everyone 10 frame jabs, helped even the playing field and made the game overrall much more fun.
Forcing everyone to have i10 jabs is probably my most despised system change since T6 released. i8 jab characters stood out as a group with a special advantage that offset the advantages of certain i10 jab characters like the Mishimas.
Sure, Kaz and the like still have less tools to poke as well as, say, Anna, but the i8 jab was a nice compromise for not having extra tools that some of the i10s possesed (like light wave dashing).
I'm not saying it was perfectly balanced pre-T6, but I preferred the distinction in the two classes of jabbers in how you approached your in-close fighting strategies.
Sure, Kaz and the like still have less tools to poke as well as, say, Anna, but the i8 jab was a nice compromise for not having extra tools that some of the i10s possesed (like light wave dashing).
I'm not saying it was perfectly balanced pre-T6, but I preferred the distinction in the two classes of jabbers in how you approached your in-close fighting strategies.
So the A.I did this to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgICpPqKHN8
Maybe this is nothing new, but I think this is the first time I've seen a throw combo after a floor break.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgICpPqKHN8
Maybe this is nothing new, but I think this is the first time I've seen a throw combo after a floor break.
GrayFoxPL
Member
DEATH™;122414008 said:
Let me remind you how this started. I complained how Tag juggles are insanely long and slow down the pace. So I showed Tag1 matches and pointed out how fast it is and how quick the combos are. Then you jumped on me like I insulted the Tag2 (lol). You literally said to me: don't blame the juggles for slowing down the game because you can do the same long combos in tag1. So I say "prove it." Did you prove anything? No, you avoid this and talk about everything around it.
Of course you can't prove it because it's not possible. Everyone here knows Tag2 juggles are longest and most robust the series ever had.
But now you somehow see that these short swift old ass Tag1 combos last as long as Tag2 ones. What? What? Do you want me to go to loony house? Because this is some insane shit right there and I can't fathom anymore.
And please don't say it like you have to be a pro or some kind of combo maker to do long combos in Tag2. I am mediocre player and do 8-12 hit bread and butter combos on an open field, without walls and that's excluding crazy combo characters like Steve. And yes they take a helluva lot longer then scrawny 4-5 hit juggles in Tag1.
And yes they slow the pace down a lot because one player can put down the pad/stick have a drink and watch combo video. This is almost literally the definition of slowing down the match. And it's not like I uncovered America with this simple action and effect relation.
Even juggles to wall combos are common as morning coffe in Tag2 and add even more seconds I'm not even mention floor brake because you think it's rare.
And what with Changs why do you keep saying Changs? Because multi ff+1 combos? They could do it then they could do it now and they'll probably do it forever in the future. Don't tell me you based whole logic of your claims on changs ff+1?
You could've drop it, say "My bad" or shit like that and I wouldn't remember it 5 minutes later but no you keep digging and now I trying to rationalize person's line of thinking where short amount of time=longer amount of time like in some alternate realm where time runs at 2 speeds. Twilight zone shit.
No I have enough, I put way too much thought in this because you might as well be trolling.
Changs Changs Changs, I'm gonna send someone bills from loony bin and you guys can guess to who.
Please stop this I have no beef.Some other thing, other subject. Quick guys. Quick.
I got it:
Made some new fun team:
Lei - Miguel
Very fun and entertaining. They work like Brains and Muscles. When Lei's shenanigans stop working I tag in Miguel to clean up with ff+2,1_2.
I actually "mained" Lei since Tekken 2, but everyone knows it's Tekken 3 where he really was born. Well did not play him that much in T6.
His ground position-stance pissed me off, it still does because it ruins tag crash for me. I tag with the right stick whack. So to tag crash I hold 2 and whack right stick when someone touches me.
But you guys know what happens with Lei when he get's knocked down? I push 2 whack the tag and this troll puts his hand on head and initializes play dead/sleep stance, dude just just lies there and doesn't give shit if he gets killed! Aaaa! Horror.
Since T6 doesn't have tag I didn't realize this is gonna be a problem.
Tekken 7 wish time:
Make play dead position like pre Tekken 6 pls.
Still love Lei, he has some insane stance transitions like ss+3+4,D. Such an awesome troll. Razor rush still works best since T3, lol.
My combos when Lei is a starter are much stronger then when Miguel starts.
The strongest Miguel I figured out is launcher say hopkick then df1~F, uf+3, df1~F,2 bound but that last 2 often whiffs and is hard to do online.
1,2,4 F,2 does the same damage as df1~F,df1,df+2,2 and is weak.
Boutdown, Doomshine, guys, sell me some good Miguel shit
Interesting, it's something I wonder if they'll implement or not for T7... the return of 8 frame jabs. But I guess it opens a huge imbalance pot Namco isn't ready to deal with.
I guess you're right but I do remember the Havok guys helping with TTT2 as well when Namco licensed it to use in their game.
Julia's 2+4 grab gives a free d+3 as a combo during floor breaks too
I guess you're right but I do remember the Havok guys helping with TTT2 as well when Namco licensed it to use in their game.
Julia's 2+4 grab gives a free d+3 as a combo during floor breaks too
GrayFoxPL
Member
I'd welcome back 8 frame jabs even with trade off that they could be easier to crush.
Missed this.
Glad to be entertaining sometimes Sayah.
You're not.
GrayFoxPL
Member
What are ya buyin'?
Julia's 2+4 grab gives a free d+3 as a combo during floor breaks too
I did not know this.
GrayFoxPL
Member
Eg.
What can I do from that full crouch df+2 ch blow?