MikeBreezy92
Member
That's because you know the game.
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Tekken Tag Tournament 2 |OT| Awaiting the "Final Battle"
- Thread starter AAK
- Start date
That's because you know the game.
I am disagreeing with almost every view being presented on ATP.
RIP begins by saying bound did nothing to improve OKI situation.
Aris disapproving of Netsu.
Ricky disapproving of bound.
I guess, haha.
RIP begins by saying bound did nothing to improve OKI situation.
Aris disapproving of Netsu.
Ricky disapproving of bound.
I guess, haha.
MikeBreezy92
Member
All of those things can be removed and the game can still be good...
Bound and Rage are unnecessary....
As I said earlier, as long as the oki system is changed, then I don't mind the bound not staying. If they keep the current oki system, then bound, or something that does something similar to what bound does for oki, needs to stick around.
On another note, this Reality guy in Aris' chat is really an idiot.
I'm not watching, but from earlier experiences reality basically says dumb shit and agrees with Aris on everything.
For Tag Assaults, bound is absolutely necessary. And I find that tag assaults are one of the most creative additions made to Tekken. I already know that Tekken 7 won't have TAs (it not being a tag game and all) and I have hard time thinking Namco will top TTT2 but I'm still looking forward to playing a fun Tekken 7 game.
Rage in T6BR is not as necessary, but again, the further evolution to Netsu in TTT2 made it more interesting and fun. Great new metagame with a lot of pressure on the player to make quick decisions (i.e. save health and raw tag or be safer, tag crash, and lose all the netsu).
I know you don't love TTT2 as much but we'll agree to disagree.
I don't watch ATP a lot. Only occasionally and for a few minutes. So these opinions from these top/intermediate players are new for me. Didn't think they'd be so opposed to bound.
Edit: I guess I should not be profiling. You can be a top player and hate bound.
MikeBreezy92
Member
Its not really me not liking TTT2 here though. You have to view TTT2 in different context than T6.
Like a lot of Aris' points and your point are sorta undermined because it is a Tag game. The reason why you have things like Netsu and TA are because its a Tag game. Big Ass damage across the board? Tag game.
Of course bound is necessary in TTT2, because its an Integral part of the Tag Assualt System. I mean in regular Tekken, its not. Netsu is only as good as it is, is due to the Tag system. Rage is its own beast. Netsu is its own thing.
If you're comparing the games, you have to realize the context in which you're talking about mechanics.
And Aris' bias with Soul Calibur II is definitely showing lol.
Like a lot of Aris' points and your point are sorta undermined because it is a Tag game. The reason why you have things like Netsu and TA are because its a Tag game. Big Ass damage across the board? Tag game.
Of course bound is necessary in TTT2, because its an Integral part of the Tag Assualt System. I mean in regular Tekken, its not. Netsu is only as good as it is, is due to the Tag system. Rage is its own beast. Netsu is its own thing.
If you're comparing the games, you have to realize the context in which you're talking about mechanics.
And Aris' bias with Soul Calibur II is definitely showing lol.
Even in Tekken 6, I approved of the bound addition, though. Removing bound is not gonna suddenly make combos shorter. Look at Tekken revolution or past Tekken games. Bound was a good, balancing feature for Tekken 6 and, imo, a good way forward.
MikeBreezy92
Member
Even though combo length doesn't bother me, Across the board, combos would be shorter.
Just comparing the longest combo in one game to another doesn't paint the whole picture.
You know what Balanced T6? Giving everyone mostly the same tools. Bound...just added to the system.
Just comparing the longest combo in one game to another doesn't paint the whole picture.
You know what Balanced T6? Giving everyone mostly the same tools. Bound...just added to the system.
It's not only about combo length. It's also about damage from individual moves. The damage output is greater in the older games.
Bound is universal in the sense that every character has it. But the moves that lead to bound are going to be different for every character. e.g. look at Rick arguing bound didn't do anything for Ganryu. Some characters have better bound moves than others so it's not so completely universal and is not in perfect balance giving everyone the same tools.
And as far as I'm aware, bound is the only new feature that was universally available for all characters. What other tools are you talking about in T6 (besides what was already there before in previous games)? I don't count rage because it doesn't impact the actual mechanics in T6. Only impacts damage output when you're nearing a K.O. so yeah.
MikeBreezy92
Member
10f Jabs mostly
Damage output being greater isn't really a problem because they're scaled that way.
I'm not in opposition to 10f jabs either. I haven't heard the argument but what exactly is the negative of having 10f jabs for the characters?
MikeBreezy92
Member
I wasn't speaking as though I though they were a negative. But things like almost everyone having hopkicks, 10f jabs, DF/2 etc makes all the characters feel the same which is a common complaint. I don't share that issue but some non-Tekken fans do.
The jabs are useful for casuals especially so I don't understand this complaint. If you don't know which punisher is suited for which attack, 1,2 is always the reliable way to go. Less damage but at least you get something out of it. Or when Jinpachi and True Ogre are coming at you with their aerial attacks, you know you can time the 1,2 correctly and catch them. It's useful. And not every character's got hopkicks and d/f+2.
Characters also do not feel the same in Tekken and this is another view I disagree with from ATP today. Yes, we work on the basic 1,2,3,4 (each button has each limb) system. But that's like saying everyone has L,M,H,S in MvC3. The indiviual moves and strategies for each character are vastly diverse. And I've seen characters being played in so many diverse ways by different people, I really can't even fathom how a single character can be "samey" let alone the entire roster.
If we're talking moveset diversity, look at Lei's stance transitions, look at Steve's completely distinct play style, look at characters relying heavily on grounded play (i.e. chreddy), look at the grapplers. The list goes on. TTT2, in fact, especially made this diversity more apparent. e.g. Julia is considered a great character but look at her tag assault filler options.
MikeBreezy92
Member
I mean that's the only thing I honestly disagreed on. They really don't play the same at all or I would've played other characters by now.
Pretty much. I really have a hard time positioning arguments that people are sometimes trying to convey. On ATP and the Fray (and in general), you have people saying Tekken has too much stuff to learn. You have to memorize each characters this and that. And then, at the same time, its being argued that these characters are too similar. If they're similar, you shouldn't have a hard time learning all these match ups.
If the basis for saying they're all the same is that they all have 10f jabs, df2, and hop kicks (which they all dont ), even then its 3 moves out of a 100-200 move list. It's doing honest disservice to the developers that took the time to create these individual characters and give them their unique flavors.
I have certain gripes with TTT2 myself. If I had the option, grab into combos would not exist (ff1+2 for Bob, Marduk, Law, etc). Or if it did exist, there would be greater reward for breaking the grab. With launchers, you can punish them by guarding. With these grab combos, it's like Congrats you managed to break this throw but you will get nothing in return. Despite this gripe, I love the game for what it is and what its done. Personally consider it to be the best fighting game in existence and from the looks of it, don't think anything in the future will be topping it but we'll see.
If the basis for saying they're all the same is that they all have 10f jabs, df2, and hop kicks (which they all dont ), even then its 3 moves out of a 100-200 move list. It's doing honest disservice to the developers that took the time to create these individual characters and give them their unique flavors.
I have certain gripes with TTT2 myself. If I had the option, grab into combos would not exist (ff1+2 for Bob, Marduk, Law, etc). Or if it did exist, there would be greater reward for breaking the grab. With launchers, you can punish them by guarding. With these grab combos, it's like Congrats you managed to break this throw but you will get nothing in return. Despite this gripe, I love the game for what it is and what its done. Personally consider it to be the best fighting game in existence and from the looks of it, don't think anything in the future will be topping it but we'll see.
This shit really bothers me. That's the same as saying movement was the same for everyone, and even that wouldn't be entirely true. There are certain characters that can sidestep better than others, some have sways, crouchdash/wavedash...
And even the df2's and hopkicks change with everyone's respective stances, and everybody has at least one of them (except for Kazuya, he just has devil transformation).
I never expected the pros to hop on this BS-train :/
I disagree about the throws. If anything, Tekken needs throws to be stronger. As of right now, anyone that puts a significant amount of time into practicing throw breaking damn near makes them obsolete. Throws are really just a focus check rather than a tool for mix ups for 95% of the cast, and I think that's bullshit.
GrayFoxPL
Member
lol.
Another thing.
I wonder if UE4 will make problems during development.
From the shy response at comic con I guess they were not really planing arcade release.
Wonder how expensive would be build arcade hardware for UE4 or will they stick it to Tag2 arcade hardware.
Maybe, but even at the highest level throws will go unbroken, you just have to use them in a different way from say VF. The big differentiator is of course that attacks can be interrupted by throws in Tekken.
It won't be hard. The arcade hardware for Ultra SF4, Guilty Gear Xrd(UE3 game), and tons of other modern arcade games uses custom built PC hardware. IIRC Ultra SFIV cabinet runs Windows 7, Core i5 and Nvidia GPU. basically arcade cabinets are PCs now.
lol.
Another thing.
I wonder if UE4 will make problems during development.
From the shy response at comic con I guess they were not really planing arcade release.
Wonder how expensive would be build arcade hardware for UE4 or will they stick it to Tag2 arcade hardware.
Tag 2 arcade hardware is a PS3 board.
If no arcade version... They will lose alot of Korean and Japanese players. As well as Asian countries.
Before arcade games like KOF13 had the official PC Steam port, arcade loaders exist and people were playing KOF13 on PCs years before the official one was released.
tldr Arcade cabinets = PCs
Emperor Bohe
Member
can someone please gif Marshall Law's expression (right after he gets punched in the balls) from Paul's Tekken 6 ending? holy shit I forgot how funny it is, it almost beats his expression in Yoshimitsu's Tekken 1 ending (my avatar)
GrayFoxPL
Member
I know it's all pc based now, I was wondering how expensive would be hardware specifically build to run UE4 at decently high settings at 60fps. Last time I heard PS4 doesn't run UE4 so perfectly, those tech demos were at medium settings or shit like that.
If arcade version would look godly and PS4ONE were mediocre it'd cause outrage, lol.
GrayFoxPL
Member
Emperor Bohe
Member
Of course they will. That's what I meant by them being a focus (or reflex) check. I've played 50 straight matches with GM before where he broke damn near every single throw and tackle that I sent his way. The only efficient way to use them is to interrupt an attack, because it forces the commitment to whatever button they pressed. That's why f,f1+2 throws (or any throws with a 1+2 break) can be used as a keep out tool.
I said this a while ago and I'll say this again, if they absolutely must keep the current (and terrible) throw system, then make the break windows similar to Tekken Revolution. At least then, the intermediate crowd can pass that barrier and concentrate on more important things instead of opting to duck/hopkick throw attempts.
I somehow always see some weird shit playing this game lol.
That one with Marduk on the right has actually happened to me several times and it's sad because WS1,2 on the back is actually one of my key setups.
GrayFoxPL
Member
Ima throw you like an asshole next time we play. You'll change your mind, lol.
I was thinking to award throw break more. Very good frame advantage or like 10-12 points of damage.
And finally remove the colorful fog while throw connects, lame as shit.
Judging by Evo, not many are throw breaking in super constant manner.
Haha, I'm ok with that, I want to get better at throw breaking. I keep forgetting, but I've been meaning to suggest that we throw more in our matches, online isn't perfect but it's not impossible like in T6.
GrayFoxPL
Member
Will do.
The worst thing is I broke thousands of throws in Tekken 2 where throw breakes were 1+3 and 2+4 because you could only break that and some multi throws. You could button buffer them too. This is so engraved in my muscle memory I still try to break like that, though I know it won't work. I can't unlearn it.
I practiced one day throw breaking for ~3 hours the way you guys thought me. I was getting decent but next day it was all gone.
GrayFoxPL
Member
It is hard as shit.
And when you think you got it - players change sides and you're like: "Wait.. which hand is which? His left hand is...ahhh fuck it!" *turns over the table.
That's why I newly uncovered the godliness of any jumping attacks. Any even the worse airborne move ever. Someone's throw happy? Jump kick/punch him in the face while he's grabbing your boots. Unless it's King then then you eat throws anyway, lol.
Though I must confess hopkicks don't work so good for this, I was being grabbed from startup animation of hopkicks. "Is such thing even possible?" "Yes it is."
Edit:
Btw Heihachi's df+1+2 has some throw parry ability. Every character should have one throw parry move.
Ooh yeah, confusing as hell.
Jump kicks are really great for a lot of things. I kind of abuse Hwo's u3 lately. I have no idea if it's safe or not, haven't been punished for it. I'll look it up.
EDIT: Well, seems like the move is +3. Yeah... definitely going to abuse this
By the way, good games earlier, Doomshine. That Bruce/Leo team is scary as hell. The damage Leo gets out of Walls is astonishing.
Ooh yeah, confusing as hell.
Jump kicks are really great for a lot of things. I kind of abuse Hwo's u3 lately. I have no idea if it's safe or not, haven't been punished for it. I'll look it up.
EDIT: Well, seems like the move is +3. Yeah... definitely going to abuse this
By the way, good games earlier, Doomshine. That Bruce/Leo team is scary as hell. The damage Leo gets out of Walls is astonishing.
Thanks GGs, how do you like my Leo S Kennedy? lol
They both have one of those wall ender strings that seems impossible to miss once it lands, Leo with ws+1,4,1 and Bruce with db+2,1,4
Haha, great costumes. I should also put more time into costumization. I created some pretty standard ones, didn't really try and expreriment. My brother always complains that my Xiaoyu looks horrible xD
I always thought WS+3,1,2 was a good combo ender for both bound and walls. I should try out 1,4,1 instead. Playing 8 characters is actually too much, given that I haven't really mastered any of them, but I like all of them so much >_<
If throws need to be stronger, then they should be stronger for everyone. At the current point in time, only a select few characters are able to combo off of throws. If they sucessfully do the throw, they get a full damaging combo that can take all red life because these throws are also tag bufferable. In contrast, there is absolutely no reward for breaking these throws.
From what I recall, if you break Paul's f,f +1,2 against a wall, Paul gets wall splatted instead. These type of combo throws need to absolutely have more risk/reward of this type if they are to exist. Or the alternate is that they don't exist at all. There are more ways than one to make throws more deadly in Tekken.
Yeah, I was especially annoyed with these comments coming from people who know the game better than that.
I somehow always see some weird shit playing this game lol.
Hahahaha. oh man. How did Lars block that facing the other way.
3,1,2 is fine post bound in the open, but for walls you definitely want 1,4,1
GrayFoxPL
Member
I've been trying to find old Tekken 4 beta location videos that circled on zaibatsu many many years ago.
No chance to find but maybe you guys seen it?
I remember one very well because it showed Steve(or maybe even Dean Earwicker) and 1,2,1,d+2 caused opponent to spin on hit like Lei's old db+4,4. Haha.
On youtube I only found this Tekken 6 beta that had no bound and rage caused burning fists, lol.
No chance to find but maybe you guys seen it?
I remember one very well because it showed Steve(or maybe even Dean Earwicker) and 1,2,1,d+2 caused opponent to spin on hit like Lei's old db+4,4. Haha.
On youtube I only found this Tekken 6 beta that had no bound and rage caused burning fists, lol.
Emperor Bohe
Member
oh man, I forgot about the outrage about Dean Earwicker. that shit was hilarious.
GrayFoxPL
Member
I was sad they changed it. At least they could've left the name: "Dean". Also I believe he was originally Australian? Maybe not, but people noticed he had Australian accent in T4, coincidentally that voice actor was changed after T4. Shame, he was good.
Rewatching T3 intro and man, what a tech feat at the time. Superb direction too. Why not give T7 intro/movie direction to whoever made this?(Instead of appleseed alpha dude).
You're looking at it through the lens of Tag 2. Outside of Tag 2, those throws are really in line with Giant Swing damage and are WAAAAAY easier to break.
Also, no, everyone should not have the same benefits from throws. Like with anything else, some characters should be better at it than others. The ones that aren't better of it should be better at other things. This actually kind of already exists now. Giant Swing, Tomestone Pildrivers, juggle starting throws (minus possible wall combo enders), and throws that wall splat all lead to similar damage.
On another note, I actually found some random footage of my second ever match of Tekken 6.0 at CF. The bound system was initially almost as awkward as the TA system.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc4ijjyS-XQ
GrayFoxPL
Member
Very cool for a second match. I loved the double side sways with Marduk.