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[Sectus]

Week 1 of the game being out and someone is complaining about how much they suck, how hard it is, there's too much to learn, it's too complex, etc, etc, bla bla blah. How do you even give a serious response to that? You've had basically no time with the game yet, but you're already complaining about . . . anything? Why? Why do people have it in their heads that you can pick up fighting games so quickly? "I've been practicing all week and I'm not gdlk yet? There's something wrong with this game. Maybe it needs to be simpler/easier/more approachable." Yea, okay.

Instead of getting your feelings hurt over the so-called elitism, why don't you look at the truth in his statements. If you want to get better at Tekken, or any fighting game, you're going to have to put time into practicing. Time and practicing are the key words here.

To be honest, I think this is a big flaw with the genre itself. It'll likely take weeks to even get a grasp of all the basics and you'll still get your ass kicked by any experienced player. One part of the problem is that no fighting game does a good job explaining the basics, including TTT2. One of the first lessons asks the player to input "up and star". Does it actually explain anywhere what "star" means? And then a bit later, it asks you to do throw breaks on reaction. I have a hard time believeing even experienced players can do that. It does not do a good job explaining what really matters in a match (concepts like frame advantage).

You can compare this to other competitive games where it'll take only hours or days to grasp all the basics and then you'll already feel like you're at least average at the game. It'll likely still take months to have a chance against the very best, but it's far far far less daunting than with a fighting game. It's so easy to get into a situation in a fighting game where you get your ass kicked and you honestly have no idea what you were doing wrong.

I'm not expecting TTT2 to have done it, but I think it's about time someone does something new with the fighting game genre. It seems like it's making itself become more and more inaccessible.

 

[Fantasmo]

Anyone want to play online?

 

[Uthred]

Week 1 of the game being out and someone is complaining about how much they suck, how hard it is, there's too much to learn, it's too complex, etc, etc, bla bla blah. How do you even give a serious response to that? You've had basically no time with the game yet, but you're already complaining about . . . anything? Why? Why do people have it in their heads that you can pick up fighting games so quickly? "I've been practicing all week and I'm not gdlk yet? There's something wrong with this game. Maybe it needs to be simpler/easier/more approachable." Yea, okay.

Instead of getting your feelings hurt over the so-called elitism, why don't you look at the truth in his statements. If you want to get better at Tekken, or any fighting game, you're going to have to put time into practicing. Time and practicing are the key words here.

I have to question your reading comprehension or perhaps you quoted the wrong post because your reponse is, at best, tangential to what I wrote. Your response also doesnt really relate to the original posters question either. Instead you construct strawmen in order to, I dont know, score some kind of weird point? The poster wasnt complaining that there was something wrong with the game, nor was he complaining that he wasnt "gdlk". He was simply looking for tips from more experienced players on how best to handle absorbing the large amount of knowledge required to get up to speed. As for how do you respond seriously to that? You do it by not being a dick. As you can see above several other posters had no problem responding seriously to it.

As for my feelings being hurt, yet again this is something you've constructed out of whole cloth. Apart from the fact its a nonsensical thing to say the response wasnt even directed at me so why would my feelings be hurt? It's also not "so called elitism" its a pretty clear example of elitism, an issue which plagued the insular fgc for years and which was thankfully diminishing somewhat in recent years due to the increased exposure the scene's getting. "Why dont I look at the truth in his statements" - What truth? His only statements were that not everyone succeeds in life which is a pointless non sequitur followed by the implication that not being awesome at fighting games made you a failure in life. There's no truth to be found there.

 

[Metalmurphy]

There's no GAF team yet?

 

[Alucrid]

No offence, you generally seem like a cool guy, but what is the point of a response like this? It's the kind of condescending elitism that the "FGC" would be better off without. You dont even address the question you simply imply (the laughable notion) that someone is a failure in life if they have difficulty picking up the game.

He didn't say that by not playing Tekken you're not succeeding in life, he said that to get good at anything in life you have to put time and effort into it.

 

[Uthred]

He didn't say that by not playing Tekken you're not succeeding in life, he said that to get good at anything in life you have to put time and effort into it.

Did I say he said it? No, I didnt. I said he implied it and the implication is pretty clear. Anyhow I think this is dragging the thread off topic so I'll drop it.

 

[Canis lupus]

I can't even find anyone, I was in the ranked practice thing for ~20minutes, nothing

after 10 minutes searching in player matches I found one guy I could join and do one match, that's it

my WTF account

Its really shitty, how can it take so long to find someone to play with?

 

[STG]

Its really shitty, how can it take so long to find someone to play with?

it works better when I set connection restriction to "none" got two ranked games in, (always the same person of course) but at least it worked somehow

 

[DEATH™]

Serious question to long term players of the series. How the fuck do you memorize all your characters moves?

You don't memorize all of them... What you do is get hit by alot of them in a match and figure out how to punish them. This skill requires experience, so just like markman said, you get what you put into. Just keep playing!

You memorize it bit by bit over hundreds of matches. Concentrate on one or two things at a time, though that is super-difficult in this , moreso than any other fighter.

What makes Tekken worse is that the reaction and execution requirements are much higher than other 3D fighters. When facing someone with good movement, I feel like it's a massive risk to try anything to get them to stop moving- it's like VF evade crouch dash cancel on steroids and all I have is threat stance.

I really think Tekken 7 needs to be an overhaul of the series, they've gone as far as they can with the old Tekken concepts, and this game really is the Tekken version of an KOF Ultimate/Unlimited match. That said, I wonder if Tekken fans would reject change because it's change- I know some VF folks were upset over the system changes in FS. What else can you add?

Sometimes you have to make big changes to a series to keep it from being stale, or to allow new players to learn.

I think this game will last a good while, so you got months to learn.

No please... Seriously... Tekken is okay as it is... You said it already, he got months to play the game. What if he became good by then, then namco decided to make a new game that flushes out everything we learned for months?

This is probably selfish, but I really hope they don't change the system, or at least not much when/if Tekken 7 comes out. I've literally never touched Tekken in my life until this game. Learning BDC, wavedash, my character and the game in general has been a more rewarding experience than any other FG I've played, and I play/played every FG.

Yeah. This might be weird to say but, tekken IMO is the closes videogame that emulate martial arts training. The complicacies/mindgame are there, the vast amount of character styles are there, the execution requirement is there. You just get what you put into. The more you train, the more you get better... There's no fighting game so far that emulates that aside tekken.

@sactus A game being complicated is not a flaw bro. Starcraft is complicated, but people play it anyways. The problem is most new players have the wrong attitude coming in. It might sound elitist to you guys, but you just gotta put the time learning the game/s. Look, football won't change the rules for you if you are not willing to go to the weight room, watch tape, and learn plays. Same idea in basketball, MMA, drawing, music, etc.

 

[joffocakes]

I don't have a problem with a game having so many complex systems that it'll take months to develop real competence; I'm sure for many people that's a big part of fighting games' appeal is in their depth. But very few competitive fighting games do anything to educate newcomers on their inner workings, from basic helpful techniques to advanced situational knowledge. Again, part of the fun is working out these tricks yourself, but if beginners were better catered for then the genre would surely flourish. I know I certianly wasn't interested in fighting games before actively learning how to play Street Fighter 4 but now I purchase nearly every game released in the genre.

I'm not brilliant at fighting games, and I'm even worse at Tekken (I've only played TTT2 for six hours, but that's still more than my entire Tekken career prior), but having a basic knowledge of how fighting games work on the whole has worked wonders for my appreciation of the genre.

Skull Girls did it's part to educate people on the some of the tricks many fighting game fans would take for granted, but, due to time/budget/other it didn't really get into it in as much detail as it could have. I hear Virtua Fighter 4 Evo on PS2 has a fantastic training mode. Fight Lab is definitely a step in the right direction but again there are assumptions of prior knowledge that are a bit of a barrier.

I'm rambling, but basically I feel that while telling someone that they can't expect to get good at a game after playing it for a few afternoons is fair enough, the game itself not doing it's part in explaining the best route to learning it is very understandably a huge barrier to new players.

 

[Fantasmo]

Yeah people like Master Milk get me all fired up. It's like you have to live and breathe this stuff or you're a pussy. Come on now son.

I'm gonna point out a couple things that could be polished up in TTT2 specifically, because I love Tekken and I'm absolutely loving TTT2 overall.

Ready?

HEADS UP HATERS, this is what I would POLISH in TTT2 and what I would include in a fighting game that I had a hand in creating. This isn't a hatefest for TTT2 or Tekken or fighting games in general. The reason that I'm even typing this out is because I have real life friends who won't TOUCH TTT2 with a ten foot pole. And why? Read on..

1) The USA manual has 6 pages. Eh?

2) Practice mode has icons for homing, bound, launcher, but I have to play Fight Lab to even know that. Combot sucks, what an ugly stupid character. But if I'm going to learn this game from scratch without spending 100s of hours in forums, I have to do at least some Combot, and that's true even if I know previous Tekkens very well! Why aren't these clutch moves categorized? Categorize them! LET ME CATEGORIZE. Let me categorize by launcher, bound, throw, mixup, low, mid, high. Everything. I wanna be able to enter practice mode, find a good move fast and practice it so I'm ready to square off with the guy who thrashed me with a good counterattack strategy.

3) Wall combos, balconies, bounds, launchers, tag combos, and tag assaults are INCREDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDIBLY important in this game.

These things didn't even exist in the first 3 iterations, but they are now front and center.

As if the characters and combat system and 100+ moves and combos for each character aren't enough..... bzzzt let's back up to the moves -- high, low, mid, unblockable, learning to block or sidestep all those different attacks, throw, throw escapes -- WHOAOAHAHOH... WHAT'S A NOOB TO DO. Do you pros realize that until Tekken 4 there were no walls and even those old games could be considered overwhelming?

Now we've got these various complicated metagames that involve the wall, tagging, and tag combos. And it's not a small portion of the game. MOST of the stages are so small you aren't NOT going to hit a wall!! Which leads me to..

4) Where's the EXTENSIVE training mode SPECIFICALLY for wall combos. How about one for balcony combos? How about one for Tag combos and Tag Assaults? Yes I know practice mode kind of allows this but if I'm learning a new character and all their little doohickeys I don't want to finger dance and get all confused when I really just want to practice a combo.

5) Okizeme or whatever you fighting dudical dudes call it. Ground game. There's needs to be a mode that shows you how to escape things or counter attack. Two or three hours dedicated to lots of ground game with various characters, best ways to get out, get away, and handle tough situations.

6) Frame data - fastest moves. What can I use to move around get away attack in certain scenarios, push back and leave myself safe, etc.

*****
Look I may seem like an asshole, and practice and time gets everyone there, but let's stop smoking crack for a second. Grab your nearest friend that isn't a fighting game aficiondo, give him controller #2 and see if he enjoys playing with you.

The learning curve is high, and while the information is out there, the quality material is scattered and unfocused at best, we're relegated to the internet and random forums. If I were to ask you to ask 100,000 random people if they know what GAF, Tekken Zaibatsu, or Tekken Forums, they'd look at you like you had 3 eyes. Face it, fighting games have become overwhelming unless you've had nearly years of experience, and even then if you missed a few of the games, you're way behind. There is not nearly enough information included in these games to get a new player up to speed. There just isn't.

These modes that I would include are modes that pros could and would easily skip, but new players need to get up to speed. Give a random person a chance to play and they'll be like "Okay nice so what are we going to do today I'm not gonna sit here and watch you play this shit"

******



That said, I love Tekken.

Case dismissed.

 

[Cyber Caesar]

The one thing I think a new person needs to consider is that the Tekken community has people in it who have clocked in over 40,000+ matches in Tekken 6. I respect the people who play the game at the highest level. It will take some serious practice if you want to get to"I do not hit."http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhvBTy28VJM

 

[Bleep]

Thanks to Antiwhippy and Flying Wonkey for the games, and sorry again for the lag at the end. Some of the guys here decided to play Minecraft towards the end of the session. I'm not used to netcode in fighting games being so good, usually I get turned off by online and stop, but it's incredibly hard to put this down.

That Combot/Item Move troll player from USA was pretty funny, doing counter hit crumples and hop kicks repeatedly saved the day for me.

 

[DEATH™]

I don't have a problem with a game having so many complex systems that it'll take months to develop real competence; I'm sure for many people that's a big part of fighting games' appeal is in their depth. But very few competitive fighting games do anything to educate newcomers on their inner workings, from basic helpful techniques to advanced situational knowledge. Again, part of the fun is working out these tricks yourself, but if beginners were better catered for then the genre would surely flourish. I know I certianly wasn't interested in fighting games before actively learning how to play Street Fighter 4 but now I purchase nearly every game released in the genre.

I'm not brilliant at fighting games, and I'm even worse at Tekken (I've only played TTT2 for six hours, but that's still more than my entire Tekken career prior), but having a basic knowledge of how fighting games work on the whole has worked wonders for my appreciation of the genre.

Skull Girls did it's part to educate people on the some of the tricks many fighting game fans would take for granted, but, due to time/budget/other it didn't really get into it in as much detail as it could have. I hear Virtua Fighter 4 Evo on PS2 has a fantastic training mode. Fight Lab is definitely a step in the right direction but again there are assumptions of prior knowledge that are a bit of a barrier.

I'm rambling, but basically I feel that while telling someone that they can't expect to get good at a game after playing it for a few afternoons is fair enough, the game itself not doing it's part in explaining the best route to learning it is very understandably a huge barrier to new players.

I think this game's tutorials and practice mode are as good as it is right now. But if you feel that the tutorials are still a bit lacking, then there's always us, the FGC. Starcraft doesn't have a really good hands on tutorial either, but again people still plah it. It's because they have a strong community that teach each other. That's my dream about tekken, but when too many people complaining, I don't think we could reach that just yet...

 

[joffocakes]

The only thing I'd definitely change at this stage is allowing the command list when waiting in the Mokujin Training Void for a ranked match. Also the "promotion chance" cards totally obscure the character intro movies: I like seeing how my opponent has dressed themselves up!

I'm pretty terrible at the game, but I'm keen to learn it. I have no idea what's safe; I was using a punish of Bob's back+right punch (2?) x2, right kick (4?) x2, which has decent range and does a lot of damage for a short combo, but after some success with it I found that wiser players were able to simply block the kicks at the end. It still shows as a "4 hit combo" against the mokujin... is it not a true combo, then? Is there something fundamental I need to know here?

EDIT: Thanks for the reply Death™, I will be using various sources to help myself learn, but that's kinda my point; I already have the desire to get better. For a lot of people the resources immediately available (a six page manual, fight lab) won't be enough, to the point of frustration.

I don't think we should settle for fighting game tutorials being as limited as they are. Developers are shooting themselves in the foot a little there, alienating people who, when pointed in the right direction, could become lifelong fans. In my morbidly obese opinion, of course.

 

[Fantasmo]

I think this game's tutorials and practice mode are as good as it is right now. But if you feel that the tutorials are still a bit lacking, then there's always us, the FGC. Starcraft doesn't have a really good hands on tutorial either, but again people still plah it. It's because they have a strong community that teach each other. That's my dream about tekken, but when too many people complaining, I don't think we could reach that just yet...

Well I'm ready to practice and play someone add me let's go I have a few hours! I'm pumped let's go!

 

[Canis lupus]

it works better when I set connection restriction to "none" got two ranked games in, (always the same person of course) but at least it worked somehow

I have it at that aswell, but then get bunch of oponnents with bad connections.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Ready?

Don't feel repressed. Please tell us how you really feel about Tekken.

 

[Uthred]

I think this game's tutorials and practice mode are as good as it is right now. But if you feel that the tutorials are still a bit lacking, then there's always us, the FGC. Starcraft doesn't have a really good hands on tutorial either, but again people still plah it. It's because they have a strong community that teach each other. That's my dream about tekken, but when too many people complaining, I don't think we could reach that just yet...

There's some good stuff out there for Tekken, the LUYG & Avoiding the Puddle guides linked in the OP are a pretty solid introduction for new players to the general stuff they need to know. I think one of the issues may be that when new folk get past that stuff they are largely on their own. The largest online forum for Tekken, TZ, generally lacks any solid character stuff that's accessible to new players (understandable at this point, the games still quite new). But their wiki is a step in the right direction, it would be nice though if the character specifc forums had solid "Character X 101", sort of like the stuff you see over on the Dustloop forums or the AH3 wiki. As it is, stuff like "Top Ten Moves" is next to useless to new players as it entirely lacks context.

Ideally, Namco would finance the creation of a solid set of video tutorials, like the LUYG stuff but more strucutred (they are great but can be a little disjointed), aimed at teaching the game from the ground up and then character specific guides covering general play approaches for the character, b'n'bs etc.

 

[Fantasmo]

Don't feel repressed. Please tell us how you really feel about Tekken.

I love it baby

 

[Master Milk]

To be honest, I think this is a big flaw with the genre itself. It'll likely take weeks to even get a grasp of all the basics and you'll still get your ass kicked by any experienced player. One part of the problem is that no fighting game does a good job explaining the basics, including TTT2. One of the first lessons asks the player to input "up and star". Does it actually explain anywhere what "star" means? And then a bit later, it asks you to do throw breaks on reaction. I have a hard time believeing even experienced players can do that. It does not do a good job explaining what really matters in a match (concepts like frame advantage).

The game doesn't tell you that star is neutral? I have a hard time believing it's not in there somewhere, but I agree that for lessons, you shouldn't assume the player actually knows anything and explain or define every new term right then and there. And yea, top players tech throws in actual matches all the time, and then sometimes they don't. In a lesson like that, it's not really on reaction, it's to a rhythm, because you know when the computer is going to try to throw you. Actually, I'm only assuming that's how Tekken's works because that's how most games do it. But even if the computer tries to throw you randomly, you still know it's coming and can react to it. Takes practice.

You can compare this to other competitive games where it'll take only hours or days to grasp all the basics and then you'll already feel like you're at least average at the game. It'll likely still take months to have a chance against the very best, but it's far far far less daunting than with a fighting game. It's so easy to get into a situation in a fighting game where you get your ass kicked and you honestly have no idea what you were doing wrong.

I'm not expecting TTT2 to have done it, but I think it's about time someone does something new with the fighting game genre. It seems like it's making itself become more and more inaccessible.

I don't think it actually takes that much time to understand the basics of a fighting game. The difficulty comes in using your understanding in an actual match. People always say how they spend so much time in training mode and can do whatever perfectly there, but then in an actual match they get their asses kicked. That's not the game's or the genre's fault. That's a mental barrier you've got to overcome yourself.

As for the game not explaining things, fighting games have always been built around community play. Playing with others more experienced than you and learning from them is the best way to go about things. With online forums around, you can't even site location as an obstacle to your learning. I guess it would be nice if the game tried to do a better job of it, but I honestly can't see something prescripted being better than talking with people about your own personal experiences with the game.

I have to question your reading comprehension or perhaps you quoted the wrong post because your reponse is, at best, tangential to what I wrote. Your response also doesnt really relate to the original posters question either. Instead you construct strawmen in order to, I dont know, score some kind of weird point? The poster wasnt complaining that there was something wrong with the game, nor was he complaining that he wasnt "gdlk". He was simply looking for tips from more experienced players on how best to handle absorbing the large amount of knowledge required to get up to speed. As for how do you respond seriously to that? You do it by not being a dick. As you can see above several other posters had no problem responding seriously to it.

I didn't quote the original poster, the post that MarkMan responded to, because I wasn't addressing that. I quoted your post because I was addressing your response, "what is the point of a response like this?" A response like MarkMan's is born from the fact that it's week 1 and people have had no time with the game. And actually, when he said he agreed with the ign review, I took that as complaining about the game, because the review is complaining about the game. In the very first paragraph, he's complaining about how hard the game is.

As for my feelings being hurt, yet again this is something you've constructed out of whole cloth. Apart from the fact its a nonsensical thing to say the response wasnt even directed at me so why would my feelings be hurt? It's also not "so called elitism" its a pretty clear example of elitism, an issue which plagued the insular fgc for years and which was thankfully diminishing somewhat in recent years due to the increased exposure the scene's getting. "Why dont I look at the truth in his statements" - What truth? His only statements were that not everyone succeeds in life which is a pointless non sequitur followed by the implication that not being awesome at fighting games made you a failure in life. There's no truth to be found there.

Your feelings are obviously hurt, because you're completely ignoring the actual advice of his post just to complain about his attitude. He said you have to put time into the game if you want to be good, that's truth. You didn't acknowledge that, though.

 

[Willectro]

The matchmaking is perfect. I like how you select your fighters then practice while waiting for an opponent. Makes way more sense than sitting there while someone takes their time to select their fighters.

 

[Flying Wonkey]

Hahahahh MarkMan what have you done?

Thanks to Antiwhippy and Flying Wonkey for the games, and sorry again for the lag at the end. Some of the guys here decided to play Minecraft towards the end of the session. I'm not used to netcode in fighting games being so good, usually I get turned off by online and stop, but it's incredibly hard to put this down.

That Combot/Item Move troll player from USA was pretty funny, doing counter hit crumples and hop kicks repeatedly saved the day for me.

These item moves are too damn goofy, gotta make the room private next time lol.

Oh and the online surprisingly works better then I thought, our matches were pretty fine on my end and the lag wasn't too notice-able. Well it at least keeps me up at 1am. Good games man along with Antiwhippy, loooooveee abusing those lows.

 

[Uthred]

As for the game not explaining things, fighting games have always been built around community play. Playing with others more experienced than you and learning from them is the best way to go about things. With online forums around, you can't even site location as an obstacle to your learning. I guess it would be nice if the game tried to do a better job of it, but I honestly can't see something prescripted being better than talking with people about your own personal experiences with the game.

"That's how its always been done" is no excuse to privilege an old approach over a more efficient one. There are clearly a number of more efficient ways to educate new players on how to play, to lower barriers to entry and to help the genre grow than relying on random strangers to pick up the slack. Game companies are simply being, well lazy isnt quite the right word, complacent perhaps? They see no direct reward for expedning resources on educational material so leave it to the "community" to pick up the slack. As one can see from looking at fighting game forums for a variety of games this generally isnt the most helpful thing in the world. And lets be honest in the grand scheme of educational approaches "talking with people about their own personal experiences" is pretty low down the list in terms of efficiency and effectiveness.

I didn't quote the original poster, the post that MarkMan responded to, because I wasn't addressing that. I quoted your post because I was addressing your response, "what is the point of a response like this?"

You may have thought that you were addressing it but if you were trying to you did a piss poor job because as noted your response didnt actually address, well anything really.

Your feelings are obviously hurt, because you're completely ignoring the actual advice of his post just to complain about his attitude. He said you have to put time into the game if you want to be good, that's truth. You didn't acknowledge that, though.

This is genuinely amusing. My feelings are hurt because I'm ignorning something that doesnt exist in order to complain about poor attitude? Did your magic internet mood ring tell you this? I'm intrigued, if I had managed to see the "truth" but also complained about the poor attitude would that mean that my feelings werent hurt or that they were only slightly hurt. Perhaps you should stop projecting. You're right I didnt acknowledge the pointless truism that the game requires practice because a) as a truism it stands alone and needs no response and because b) (and hold on to your socks) it's possible to address parts of someones response without addressing the whole - why, holy shit, its almost as if thats standard practice on the internet - it's almost as if responding to only parts of a post indicate you have no issues with the other parts. Could that possibly be whats happening here?

 

[Master Milk]

Huh, you actually edited in a real response.

"That's how its always been done" is no excuse to privilege an old approach over a more efficient one. There are clearly a number of more efficient ways to educate new players on how to play, to lower barriers to entry and to help the genre grow than relying on random strangers to pick up the slack. Game companies are simply being, well lazy isnt quite the right word, complacent perhaps? They see no direct reward for expedning resources on educational material so leave it to the "community" to pick up the slack. As one can see from looking at fighting game forums for a variety of games this generally isnt the most helpful thing in the world. And lets be honest in the grand scheme of educational approaches "talking with people about their own personal experiences" is pretty low down the list in terms of efficiency and effectiveness.

Developers don't rely on random strangers, they rely on their dedicated fanbase. When I look at fighting game forums, I see it as very helpful. Even on GAF, which isn't dedicated to fighting games, there are people that can and are willing to help you up your game. Like you said, there's no reward for adding in more learning resources. It's not going to affect anything, so why bother? Let the community handle.

And to be honest, in the grand scheme of educational approaches, "talking with people about their own personal experiences," that is, having a personal tutor, is as good as it gets.

 

[Finaika]

Just received my PS3 copy...

...holy shit at he visuals! It looks very close to the arcade version. Definitely a better port than Tekken 6!

 

[Uthred]

Huh, you actually edited in a real response.



Developers don't rely on random strangers, they rely on their dedicated fanbase. When I look at fighting game forums, I see it as very helpful. Even on GAF, which isn't dedicated to fighting games, there are people that can and are willing to help you up your game. Like you said, there's no reward for adding in more learning resources. It's not going to affect anything, so why bother? Let the community handle.

And to be honest, in the grand scheme of educational approaches, "talking with people about their own personal experiences," that is, having a personal tutor, is as good as it gets.

Ah I get it, calling you on your bullshit isnt a "real response". Oh and nice shifting of the goalposts by the way, quite the jump from "talking to people on forums" to "personal tutor". Even then its still about approach, a personal tutor is only superior assuming that the efficiency of the teaching methods are similar. A shitty tutor or one with a poor approach (in this case that would be chatting about ones personal experience) is inferior to group learning or a tutor with a more efficient approach (which ironically is basically what the poster who got sassed above was looking for).

You also seem to be mis-understanding or mis-representing what I said, I said that companies can see no direct reward for adding learning resources. I certianly did not say that a) there was no reward or b) that it wouldnt affect anything. In fact I outlined exactly what kind of rewards and positive affect said resources would have.

I'm honestly confused as to why you would be against alternate or superior learning material? "Leaving it to the community" isnt a real approach, at the moment its what we've got so we make do but I dont see why you would be resistant to supplemental or alternate approaches.

 

[DEATH™]

Ideally, Namco would finance the creation of a solid set of video tutorials, like the LUYG stuff but more strucutred (they are great but can be a little disjointed), aimed at teaching the game from the ground up and then character specific guides covering general play approaches for the character, b'n'bs etc.

The problem is, what is a character's BnB?, what playstyle does a character need to play? Everything varies from player to player. The game developers aren't being lazy... There's just the simple fact that You can't teach ART. Making a tutorial saying what should and shouldn't do is limiting the possibilities...

 

[Fantasmo]

Huh, you actually edited in a real response.



Developers don't rely on random strangers, they rely on their dedicated fanbase. When I look at fighting game forums, I see it as very helpful. Even on GAF, which isn't dedicated to fighting games, there are people that can and are willing to help you up your game. Like you said, there's no reward for adding in more learning resources. It's not going to affect anything, so why bother? Let the community handle.

And to be honest, in the grand scheme of educational approaches, "talking with people about their own personal experiences," that is, having a personal tutor, is as good as it gets.

That's the stupidest method I've ever heard. How about having your game teach people how to play.

IS THAT A BAD THING? Why are you lashing out at him? What's wrong with you?

 

[Uthred]

The problem is, what is a character's BnB?, what playstyle does a character need to play? Everything varies from player to player. The game developers aren't being lazy... There's just the simple fact that You can't teach ART. Making a tutorial saying what should and shouldn't do is limiting the possibilities...

I agree that the character specific stuff is a bigger challenge. But that doesnt mean you cant have a solid introduction to the fundamentals. I also think it's possible to give a solid overview of a character, something like the series of videos LUYG did for, say, Lars in T6. Give an overview of moves, their properties, what they are good for. And lets be honest you certainly can give an overview of broad approaches for characters because thats how the characters are designed e.g. some work better played defensively, some work better at a counter game, etc. this isnt limiting anything its pointing out the nature of the characters.

 

[JEKKI]

Xiaoyu sure. Baek noooooo idea. One of the things that has been working for me with Xiaoyu is her f+2,1,4 after a tag in. But it depends on what you do for a bound with Baek. However I'm still trying other things with Xiaoyu but so far, that particular move has worked the best. As for a finisher after you've had her on point, f,f 1+2 (X) can work or if your opponent is carried, having her run in with 3 into Phoenix Stance works. Then you have options with her stance for either her 2,1 or sweep with 3+4.

yup, tried using f+2,1,4 or even jus f+2,1 on tag in, as well as f+3,1... they all push too far for Baek to do anything

but with xiaoyu on point she can also follow up with 4~3 into AOP for the same mixup options u stated, but yah that's jus one hit and I was hoping if I could get more.

they really dont gel well together ;_;

 

[alstein]

To be honest, I think this is a big flaw with the genre itself. It'll likely take weeks to even get a grasp of all the basics and you'll still get your ass kicked by any experienced player. One part of the problem is that no fighting game does a good job explaining the basics, including TTT2. One of the first lessons asks the player to input "up and star". Does it actually explain anywhere what "star" means? And then a bit later, it asks you to do throw breaks on reaction. I have a hard time believeing even experienced players can do that. It does not do a good job explaining what really matters in a match (concepts like frame advantage).

I'm not expecting TTT2 to have done it, but I think it's about time someone does something new with the fighting game genre. It seems like it's making itself become more and more inaccessible.

It's not the genre, but a flaw of sequel after sequel, and somewhat Tekken itself being the most complicated of games to learn of anything. It's kinda like the Guilty Gear of 3D fighters (not a compliment from me) Tekken also doesn't explain things as well as other fighters, be it in-game, or at Tekken Zaibatsu.

That said, make things too simple, and the hardcore can revolt, Persona is dying locally due to this, and even Final Showdown had a decent number of players who left over the changes. If you spend dozens of hours learning something arcane, and the devs take it out because it's bad game design, it's natural to be mad. (VF still has a few things that are bad game design, but it's smaller than previous versions)

If you want to learn and have higher-level players help you out, there's always VFDC (hint hint ^_^)- VF players (outside of online warriors) are the nicest dudes and ladies out there. At MLG GT was pretty much telling each of us how we sucked, and what to do about it (mine is half execution, half autopiloting in certain situations that he could pick up on), and this was with $1500 on the line.

 

[Kai Dracon]

There's no GAF team yet?

I'd like to join if there is one. Did anyone already have dibs on making the GAF team for this?

 

[Fantasmo]

The problem is, what is a character's BnB?, what playstyle does a character need to play? Everything varies from player to player. The game developers aren't being lazy... There's just the simple fact that You can't teach ART. Making a tutorial saying what should and shouldn't do is limiting the possibilities...

This isn't art it's a fighting game. I like having friends, and friends who play stuff with me.
Fighting games are way beyond Street Fighter 2. Street Fighter 2 IS HARD FOR MOST PEOPLE. It's time to either take it down a notch, or bring the resources up about ten notches. Give it a rest.

 

[ZROCOOL]

Shit just watching people while I wait for my turn scares me, because I don't know the tag system at all and its been ages since I touched a Tekken title.

 

[Master Milk]

Ah I get it, calling you on your bullshit isnt a "real response". Oh and nice shifting of the goalposts by the way, quite the jump from "talking to people on forums" to "personal tutor". Even then its still about approach, a personal tutor is only superior assuming that the efficiency of the teaching methods are similar. A shitty tutor or one with a poor approach (in this case that would be chatting about ones personal experience) is inferior to group learning or a tutor with a more efficient approach (which ironically is basically what the poster who got sassed above was looking for).

You also seem to be mis-understanding or mis-representing what I said, I said that companies can see no direct reward for adding learning resources. I certianly did not say that a) there was no reward or b) that it wouldnt affect anything. In fact I outlined exactly what kind of rewards and positive affect said resources would have.

I'm honestly confused as to why you would be against alternate or superior learning material? "Leaving it to the community" isnt a real approach, at the moment its what we've got so we make do but I dont see why you would be resistant to supplemental or alternate approaches.

I guess the real problem is that I'm not trying to be as technical as you, but yea, talking to people on forums, personal tutor, it's the same to me. People will look at what you're doing and give you personalized advice if you need it. And yea, if you use the worst case for one thing and the best case for the other, there's no surprise that group learning or whatever could be better, but all things being equal, personalized learning is best . . . which is actually what you turned around to say in the end . . . . . .

 

[Jamie OD]

I wish there was an option to revert the opponents in Arcade mode to their default outfits. Jun's appearance loses its luster when she shows up looking like Power Ranger Stig with a spiked baseball bat.

 

[CPS2]

One problem with making a really in-depth tutorial in the game, is that it can actually turn the game into a memorisation exercise. I think the best approach is to figure out as much as you can on your own, and check guides to fill in the gaps if necessary. "How do you learn a fighting game" could probably be a pretty good thread, as i'm sure a lot of people have different ways they go about it.

 

[Kai Dracon]

I wish there was an option to revert the opponents in Arcade mode to their default outfits. Jun's appearance loses its luster when she shows up looking like Power Ranger Stig with a spiked baseball bat.

Did the arcade version used ghosts in arcade mode via Tekken Net? I was surprised to see this in the console version.

 

[FormallyFamicom]

As someone who is pretty green to Tekken (only ever played any of them this year), the only real change I'd make is just to widen the buffer window a little bit. I mean fuck man, I've dropped so much stuff just trying to hit two buttons at once and failing. Requiring tight execution for high quality combos is nice and all but...I just wanna hit two buttons (or THREE buttons in those King/Nina multithrows which is almost impossible to me right now) at the same time consistently. ;_; Frame data would be nice too; I feel like I leveled up much faster in VF5 thanks to it being built in the training mode there.

Over the past 12 months I've pretty much dedicated myself to the fighting game genre. UMvC3, SCV, SFxT, VF5, P4A, I've probably put 100+ hours into each one (cept P4A, wasn't really feeling that one). IMO I still suck at all of them, but I am noticably better at each of them than I was at day zero. I think the most important thing for a new player--corny as it sounds--is to simply have fun playing. Don't bog yourself down with learning a billion things at once, find a game and find a character you have fun pushing buttons with, play with you friends for a bit, play the CPU for a bit just to get a feel for some pet moves. Then jump online and see what other people play like. You'll know you're having fun when losing doesn't bother you. That is REALLY important because you're going to lose a LOT.

The next step is self-review. Look at the matches you've played, look for certain moves the opponents did or situations they put you in that you had trouble with. Jump into practice mode and recreate that stuff. One by one, you figure it out slowly. Find some high level matches on youtube or download some replays of your characters through the game and pour over them for little tricks that you can adapt to your own game.

While doing all this, I'd also make sure to practice 1-2 combos. You don't need a bunch to start with, just consistently practice a couple combos so you can commit them to memory. Applying new stuff you've learned into matches is really hard. While playing matches I really focus on learning situations where I can get that first hit that can lead to a combo, and so the combo should be easy to hit after that with enough practice (in theory, heh).

That's just my novice opinion, but I feel it works for me. It helps me prolong my enjoyment of the game and the genre. If in doing ANY of that stuff you just can't fight the boredom and/or frustration, well then maybe it isn't your game (not just Tekken, but any fighting game). Hey, not every game is for everyone right? I learned that I can't stand SF, and have no desire to learn KOF beyond button mashing. Thems the breaks.

 

[Uthred]

One problem with making a really in-depth tutorial in the game, is that it can actually turn the game into a memorisation exercise. I think the best approach is to figure out as much as you can on your own, and check guides to fill in the gaps if necessary. "How do you learn a fighting game" could probably be a pretty good thread, as i'm sure a lot of people have different ways they go about it.

Yeah it would be interesting to see if one could come up with a "Unified training theory" or such on how to approach fighting games. While its ok to say "Practice like a mother fucker" a more structured approach or framework might be advantageous (and could serve as a handy cookie cutter response as the question does come up a lot). The majority of skilled players are self taught and as such picked stuff up in a way that felt natural to them/circumstances dictated/just stumbled across. But I'm sure it would be possible to come up with a more uniform approach that had broad applicability.

 

[TheSpoiler]

One problem with making a really in-depth tutorial in the game, is that it can actually turn the game into a memorisation exercise. I think the best approach is to figure out as much as you can on your own, and check guides to fill in the gaps if necessary. "How do you learn a fighting game" could probably be a pretty good thread, as i'm sure a lot of people have different ways they go about it.

I love your name.

Anyway, yeah, it's about discovery for yourself, and then comparing that with existing information from other players.

The issue about tutorials is that they can only teach you so much. TT2 needs more about the basics, but it doesn't need to go any farther than letting players know what is what. Maybe example combos and the like, but not constantly applicable combos.

VF has that perfect mix, and it's too bad that game gets looked over by quite a few people for being "too hard".

 

[Fantasmo]

One problem with making a really in-depth tutorial in the game, is that it can actually turn the game into a memorisation exercise.

Good lord what? That's not actually a problem! That's how you... learn!

I think the best approach is to figure out as much as you can on your own, and check guides to fill in the gaps if necessary. "How do you learn a fighting game" could probably be a pretty good thread, as i'm sure a lot of people have different ways they go about it.

Guides are fine. Fully fleshed out in-game tutorials for each part of the fighting system are many times better. The reason this would be such a huge undertaking is because nobody ever bothered to do it right! Everytime I see one it's quite obviously an afterthought!

 

[Dereck]

As someone who is pretty green to Tekken (only ever played any of them this year), the only real change I'd make is just to widen the buffer window a little bit. I mean fuck man, I've dropped so much stuff just trying to hit two buttons at once and failing. Requiring tight execution for high quality combos is nice and all but...I just wanna hit two buttons (or THREE buttons in those King/Nina multithrows which is almost impossible to me right now) at the same time consistently. ;_; Frame data would be nice too; I feel like I leveled up much faster in VF5 thanks to it being built in the training mode there.

Over the past 12 months I've pretty much dedicated myself to the fighting game genre. UMvC3, SCV, SFxT, VF5, P4A, I've probably put 100+ hours into each one (cept P4A, wasn't really feeling that one). IMO I still suck at all of them, but I am noticably better at each of them than I was at day zero. I think the most important thing for a new player--corny as it sounds--is to simply have fun playing. Don't bog yourself down with learning a billion things at once, find a game and find a character you have fun pushing buttons with, play with you friends for a bit, play the CPU for a bit just to get a feel for some pet moves. Then jump online and see what other people play like. You'll know you're having fun when losing doesn't bother you. That is REALLY important because you're going to lose a LOT.

The next step is self-review. Look at the matches you've played, look for certain moves the opponents did or situations they put you in that you had trouble with. Jump into practice mode and recreate that stuff. One by one, you figure it out slowly. Find some high level matches on youtube or download some replays of your characters through the game and pour over them for little tricks that you can adapt to your own game.

While doing all this, I'd also make sure to practice 1-2 combos. You don't need a bunch to start with, just consistently practice a couple combos so you can commit them to memory. Applying new stuff you've learned into matches is really hard. While playing matches I really focus on learning situations where I can get that first hit that can lead to a combo, and so the combo should be easy to hit after that with enough practice (in theory, heh).

That's just my novice opinion, but I feel it works for me. It helps me prolong my enjoyment of the game and the genre. If in doing ANY of that stuff you just can't fight the boredom and/or frustration, well then maybe it isn't your game (not just Tekken, but any fighting game). Hey, not every game is for everyone right? I learned that I can't stand SF, and have no desire to learn KOF beyond button mashing. Thems the breaks.

Learning to not care about losing is one of the biggest steps in my opinion, especially when I lose a lot.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Learning to not care about losing is one of the biggest steps in my opinion, especially when I lose a lot.

This is really one of the biggest single things.

Winning is fun. It means you're accomplishing something. But IMO you have got to learn to go zen, and appreciate the game moment to moment. Don't think about winning or losing. Just play.

Which, I think, is how you learn to focus on what's happening in front of you, anyway. Can't be stressed over whether or not you're going to win the overall match. Got to keep nerves from cracking when you're a round ahead and don't want to lose the advantage.

We've all seen insane clutch comebacks from people who are losing and turn the entire thing around by going ice cold and focusing on one hit and block at a time.

After all, a big psychological component of every competitive game is trying to make the other guy lose his cool, panic, and forget the gameplan. Make him afraid he's going to lose, so he begins to flail around.

 

[QisTopTier]

I really think that I want to use True Ogre/Ogre as my main team. So far I am in love with them the most.

LOL do it so I can steal tech from you

 

[Caj814]

For those of you grinding out Ghost Battles for your custom items, I suggest you put the difficulty up if you don't have too much troubles against the AI. I was able to get a full costume set for Michelle in about 40ish wins by always going for gold battles on Very Hard.

 

[Skilletor]

This is really one of the biggest single things.

Winning is fun. It means you're accomplishing something. But IMO you have got to learn to go zen, and appreciate the game moment to moment. Don't think about winning or losing. Just play.

Which, I think, is how you learn to focus on what's happening in front of you, anyway. Can't be stressed over whether or not you're going to win the overall match. Got to keep nerves from cracking when you're a round ahead and don't want to lose the advantage.

We've all seen insane clutch comebacks from people who are losing and turn the entire thing around by going ice cold and focusing on one hit and block at a time.

After all, a big psychological component of every competitive game is trying to make the other guy lose his cool, panic, and forget the gameplan. Make him afraid he's going to lose, so he begins to flail around.

I agree. I've been using Raven since T5. He's the only character I know how to use in Tekken at this point. I made a commitment to myself to learn Hwoarang in this game. I've wanted to since T3, and just haven't put in the work.

Even though I could definitely do better choosing Raven, I'm taking losses with Hwaorang because I know it'll help me learn. I'm not getting mad about it. It's part of the process.

 

[Degen]

looks like I play twice as well when I put King first

something about Rage Mode makes me stop thinking and just go for launchers and single-hit power moves the whole time

 

[notworksafe]

So I set up the swimsuit costumes for everyone, but now I have load times when selecting characters. Is this is known issue or is my PS3 just being wack?