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[Jintor]

I really don't see how that's relevant, honestly. All religions started out because one person or group of people wanted to use stories to influence other people.

Funny, so do I, which is probably why I think all religions should be subject to ridicule/criticism just like Scientology.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Where does this attitude come from that humor is some holy grail of expression that can never be touched?

Criticism is a good thing.

Being crude and mean about minorities isn't.

Out of curiosity, do you also believe that the magazine is "spewing hatred" and "mean" when they're mocking, say, Catholics? Scientologists?

 

[Lime]

Really really great article on the issue of supporting freedom of speech but not marginalizing satire: regrettable necessity is a really apt description

But it’s wrong to approach this issue as an either-or question, to blaspheme or not blaspheme. Free speech allows us to say hateful, idiotic things without being punished by the government. But embracing that right means that we need to acknowledge when work is hateful or idiotic, and can’t be defended on its own terms. We need to recognize, as Vox’s Matt Yglesias argues today, that standing up for magazines like Charlie Hebdo is a “regrettable” necessity, in part because it provides cover for anti-Muslim backlash. “Blasphemous, mocking images cause pain in marginalized communities,” he writes. “The elevation of such images to a point of high principle will increase the burdens on those minority groups.” And the more those groups are mistreated, the more angry radicals we can expect to see.

So what should we do? We have to condemn obvious racism as loudly as we defend the right to engage in it. We have to point out when an “edgy” cartoon is just a crappy Islamophobic jab. We shouldn’t pretend that every magazine cover with a picture of Mohammed is a second coming of The Satanic Verses. Making those distinctions isn’t going to placate the sorts of militants who are already apt to tote a machine gun into a magazine office. But it is a way to show good faith to the rest of a marginalized community, to show that free speech isn’t just about mocking their religion.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...t_is_also_racist.html?wpsrc=sh_all_mob_tw_top

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

Islam was clearly not their only target. The stakes when satirizing Christianity are generally a lot lower though.

Semi-NSFW Charlie Hebdo cover.

Is the translation here...


"My Three Dads" &

"the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit"

?

 

[unrealist]

Such a haunting video .. censored in Malaysia (muslim country) as Jeff Dunham is not allowed to bring Achmed to the show.

The crux is he made a joke of two French terrorists and being brothers as well .. how similar can it get .. the video was also posted on the same day as the shooting incident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRj9bkbIBxw

 

[zer0blivion]

Is the translation here...


"My Three Dads" &

"the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit"

?

Monsignor Vingt-Trois has 3 dads.
The father, the son and the Holy spirit.

The cardinal has been a vocal opponent of efforts to introduce same-sex marriage in France. In 2013 he warned that it could incite violence, and split society in France. “This is the way a violent society develops. Society has lost its capacity of integration and especially its ability to blend differences in a common project". He insisted the government was not listening to French citizens, which could lead to more violent backlashes.

 

[RustyNails]

Really really great article on the issue of supporting freedom of speech but not marginalizing satire: regrettable necessity is a really apt description



http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...t_is_also_racist.html?wpsrc=sh_all_mob_tw_top

Thoughtful article.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Just woke up. So the Kouachi brothers haven't been caught yet :/

 

[Krejlooc]

The image at the top of the op is beautiful in how succinct it is.

 

[Amir0x]

I didn't even realize this was a new thread, wow. Nice bishoptl, it was getting crazy for sure. Excellent OP

 

[ComputerMKII]

Shooting underway at Dammartin-en-Geoêle in the Paris region, 45 km north-east of Paris. Not sure if related to the Charlie Hebdo attacks (Source: Le Monde)

 

[chadskin]

Shooting underway at Dammartin-en-Geoêle in the Paris region, 45 km north-east of Paris. Not sure if related to the Charlie Hebdo attacks (Source: Le Monde)

AFP reports the same:

AFP: #BREAKING Shots fired in car chase north-east of Paris: police source

 

[ComputerMKII]

Yep, big exchange of gunfire and two suspects are being chased.

 

[Palette Swap]

That's closer to Paris than where they were yesterday.

 

[Amir0x]

Shooting underway at Dammartin-en-Geoêle in the Paris region, 45 km north-east of Paris. Not sure if related to the Charlie Hebdo attacks (Source: Le Monde)

Please no one else get hurt, stay safe FranceGAF

 

[stufte]

Yep, big exchange of gunfire and two suspects are being chased.

If it's them, I hope they are taken alive.

 

[Dead Man]

Even this horrible fucking event has people victim blaming :/

 

[chadskin]

RTL reports a car was stolen at 8.40am local time (about 50 minutes ago) in Montagny-Sainte-Felicite. Highly probable it's them.

 

[Kenshin001]

Please no one else get hurt, stay safe FranceGAF

I wouldn't be too upset if the terrorists get hurt.

 

[fabricated backlash]

So we're back to the victim blaming again I see.

 

[Slaythe]

Since we KNOW they had a 3rd accomplice, couldn't those cop murders (those rarely happen in France, in the way they did) be diversions of sorts ?

Just like leaving a fucking ID card in the car ? Like who would do that not on purpose ?

It really feels like red flags to me, trying to send cops some places to go somewhere else..

 

[Jb]

Shooting underway at Dammartin-en-Geoêle in the Paris region, 45 km north-east of Paris. Not sure if related to the Charlie Hebdo attacks (Source: Le Monde)

If it's them you have the RAID, GIGN and the army against two dudes with AKs and an RPG. You'd think all they have to do is bait them into wasting their ammo until they're out.

 

[chadskin]

Three helicopters in the area:

https://twitter.com/Romain_Tmb77/status/553462903391936513/photo/1

 

[Slaythe]

An hostage has been taken.

The two fugitives are hiding in some factory.

We don't know if it's them. If it's not it's an obvious diversion.

 

[Always-honest]

Well this should be over real soon.
Orrr maybe not.

 

[Hanmik]

hostages... oh my..

 

[chadskin]

An hostage has been taken.

The two fugitives are hiding in some factory.

We don't know if it's them. If it's not it's an obvious diversion.

Yep:

AFP: #BREAKING Hostages taken north-east of Paris: police

Well shit.

 

[ComputerMKII]

I wouldn't be too upset if the terrorists get hurt.

I really want them to get caught alive. If they die, too many questions will be left unanswered.

 

[Amir0x]

fucking hostages. Great, just great. These guys can't just escape without taking more down with them. They've shown the absolutely barbarous ability to kill at will, so these hostages are in mortal danger.

Our thoughts go out to these souls, they are in for a perilous few hours. I hope so bad they come out alright

 

[DY_nasty]

Well this should be over real soon.
Orrr maybe not.

i can't wait to see how these guys have been on the run for this long...

 

[Mailenstein]

Oh my, it will be either over real quick or it will be damn long. Hope the hostages will stay alive.

 

[Always-honest]

i can't wait to see how these guys have been on the run for this long...

I'd like to know how they continued to disappear constantly, yeah.

 

[Dynamite Shikoku]

I really hope they can catch these guys alive, and without the loss of more innocent lives.

 

[ComputerMKII]

If it's them you have the RAID, GIGN and the army against two dudes with AKs and an RPG. You'd think all they have to do is bait them into wasting their ammo until they're out.

The regular army isn't going after the terrorists (this is a police operation, after all). They may not arrest people and they haven't been trained for that. The Gendarmerie/GIGN (which are technically part of the military) can, though.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Cowardly assholes.

 

[Majine]

Now they're taking unrelated people as hostages? If they still think all of this is "for the better", you really gotta have a warped sense of self-righteousness.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Live feed of the chase on Reuters right now.

 

[Jumplion]

Really really great article on the issue of supporting freedom of speech but not marginalizing satire: regrettable necessity is a really apt description



http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...t_is_also_racist.html?wpsrc=sh_all_mob_tw_top

It's so surreal to see people mocking the extremists and then put up these cartoonists as "martyrs". Like, that's the type of wording that the very extremists that did this horrific act would use for their cause.

It's very important to understand the nuances of this situation, something that this article and several others have helpfully pointed out. As the article you linked said;

But it’s wrong to approach this issue as an either-or question, to blaspheme or not blaspheme. Free speech allows us to say hateful, idiotic things without being punished by the government. But embracing that right means that we need to acknowledge when work is hateful or idiotic, and can’t be defended on its own terms. We need to recognize, as Vox’s Matt Yglesias argues today, that standing up for magazines like Charlie Hebdo is a “regrettable” necessity, in part because it provides cover for anti-Muslim backlash. “Blasphemous, mocking images cause pain in marginalized communities,” he writes. “The elevation of such images to a point of high principle will increase the burdens on those minority groups.” And the more those groups are mistreated, the more angry radicals we can expect to see.

Too often the internet discourages nuance in these types of situations, and it really sucks. Hopefully in the coming weeks we'll be able to have an actual conversation about free expression, what it produces, and the consequences of what is produced (whether that's criticism or, unfortunately, violence).

And boy oh boy, hostages and chases. I hope everyone gets out safely, let's start 2015 with some hope here.

 

[Shadders]

The regular army isn't going after the terrorists (this is a police operation, after all). They may not arrest people and they haven't been trained for that. The Gendarmerie/GIGN (which are technically part of the military) can, though.

Surely the French Special Forces (I don't know their official name) will be called in if it's a highly dangerous hostage situation?

 

[Pandemic]

Possibly one hostage inside the car that's being chased, which is taking place near a major airport.

 

[Sothis Krieg]

Surely the French Special Forces (I don't know their official name) will be called in if it's a highly dangerous hostage situation?

GIGN and RAID are the best for these situations.

 

[Mailenstein]

Surely the French Special Forces (I don't know their official name) will be called in if it's a highly dangerous hostage situation?

That's what GIGN is there for.

 

[ComputerMKII]

An hostage has been taken.

The two fugitives are hiding in some factory.

We don't know if it's them. If it's not it's an obvious diversion.

Hostage taking is some of the lowest, most cowardly shit a criminal can do. Maybe even lower than a summary execution on a moral level.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

These CNN anchors trying desperately trying to talking about stuff to fill silence.

 

[Lime]

Even this horrible fucking event has people victim blaming :/

So we're back to the victim blaming again I see.

Huh? Who is victim-blaming in this thread?

 

[chadskin]

Unconfirmed:

RTL report of hostages taken at a catering company near Paris Charles de Gaulle Airport to the north of Paris.

 

[Pandemic]

CNN are saying the French Interior Minister have said police have surrounded an area where the terrorists are thought to be located.

 

[Koren]

Where does this attitude come from that humor is some holy grail of expression that can never be touched?

Criticism is a good thing.

Being crude and mean about minorities isn't.

Of course you can't do absolutely anything because you argue it's humor. Anybody can sue them if they find anything offending.

In fact, they've been charged A LOT for this kind of things. They've NEVER been found guilty of anything related to minorities.

And I'd say that the minorities aren't even their main target.

 

[Jb]

Too often the internet discourages nuance in these types of situations, and it really sucks. Hopefully in the coming weeks we'll be able to have an actual conversation about free expression, what it produces, and the consequences of what is produced (whether that's criticism or, unfortunately, violence).

As long as it isn't hate speech or holocaust denial (both of which are illegal here), it's actually fairly simple: if you're offended, angered or just distraught because somebody wrote something that upset you, you're at liberty to respond to it however you like as long as it doesn't involve violence, which is the state's monopoly.

If you can't deal with it you're free to find another society in the world that shields you from intellectual harm.

Also, the cartoons weren't about a minority in France, they were about a radical section of a 1.25B strong religion. There's a fucking difference.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Really really great article on the issue of supporting freedom of speech but not marginalizing satire: regrettable necessity is a really apt description



http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...t_is_also_racist.html?wpsrc=sh_all_mob_tw_top

But their work featuring Mohammed could be sophomoric and racist.

To quote Michel Houellebecq in a recent interview, criticizing Islam or even mocking Muhammad isn't racist. Words have meaning.

Edit: here's what I'm referring to:

But I don’t understand the connection with racism …

That’s because there is none. Objectively speaking, there is none. When I was tried for racism and acquitted, a decade ago, the prosecutor remarked, correctly, that the Muslim religion was not a racial trait. This has become even more obvious today. So we have extended the domain of “racism” by inventing the crime of islamophobia.

The word may be badly chosen, but there do exist forms of stigma toward groups or categories of person, which are forms of racism …

No, islamophobia is not a kind of racism. If anything has become obvious, it’s that.

Islamophobia serves as a screen for a kind of racism that can no longer be expressed because it’s against the law.

I think that’s just false. I don’t agree.

You rely on another dubious dichotomy, the opposition between anti-Semitism and racism, when actually we can point to many moments in history when those two things have gone hand in hand.

I think anti-Semitism has nothing to do with racism. I’ve spent time trying to understand anti-Semitism, as it happens. One’s first impulse is to connect it with racism. But what kind of racism is it when a person can’t say whether somebody is Jewish or not Jewish, because the difference can’t be seen? Racism is more elementary than that, it’s a different skin color …

No, because cultural racism has been with us for a long time.

But now you’re asking words to mean something they don’t. Racism is simply when you don’t like somebody because he belongs to another race, because he hasn’t got the same color skin that you do, or the same features, et cetera. You can’t stretch the word to give it some higher meaning.

But since, from a biological point of view, “races” don’t exist, racism is necessarily cultural.

But racism exists, apparently, all around us. Obviously it has existed from the moment when races first began mixing … Be honest, Sylvain! You know very well that a racist is someone who doesn’t like somebody else because he has black skin or because he has an Arab face. That’s what racism is.

Or because his values or his culture are …

No, that’s a different problem, I’m sorry.

Because he is polygamous, for example.

Ah, well, one can be shocked by polygamy without being the least bit racist. That must be the case for lots of people who are not the least bit racist. But let’s go back to anti-Semitism, because we’ve gotten off topic. Seeing as how no one has ever been able to tell whether somebody is Jewish just by his appearance or even by his way of life, since by the time anti-Semitism really developed, very few Jews had a Jewish way of life, what could antisemitism really mean? It’s not a kind of racism. All you have to do is read the texts to realize that anti-Semitism is simply a conspiracy theory—there are hidden people who are responsible for all the unhappiness in the world, who are plotting against us, there’s an invader in our midst. If the world is going badly, it’s because of the Jews, because of Jewish banks … It’s a conspiracy theory.