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[mjc]

I'll be honest, I thought the TV show was good fun. It definitely felt like a throwback to the Hercules/Xena shows which I think are still pretty awesome.

But I'm not touching the books. No sir.

 

[Amir0x]

Terry Goodkind is one of the worst authors I've ever read in my life. I made this huge topic about the Sword of Truth series, and sure enough GAF just exploded with shit that made just how awful he was even more astoundingly clear. The guy is a true warning to mankind, a harbinger of death and destruction unseen since WWII. This guy is the only exception to Godwin's Law: NOT bringing up how he is as bad as the Nazi's means you've left out a point so extremely salient that you've likely lost the debate.

 

[milkyjay20]

i remember reading an interview from goodkind in which he explained the origins of richard and kahlan. basically, they physically appeared and talked about their problems. (they sat on his shoulders i guess lol) when i saw that, i thought, this guy is either crazy* or he's lying and he thinks that's how the "real authors" get their inspiration.

*he's definitely crazy, but probably not in an imaginary friend kind of way. he leans more to the ax-murderer side.

 

[anaron]

This thread is amazing for the OP and those actually admitting to liking anything written by this man.

 

[Keen]

He is responsible, though, for one of the most awesome lines in literature (good or bad is up to you).

" A plump, curly-haired woman took a step out from the others. Her round face was red with anger as she screamed. "Stop the hate! No war! Stop the hate! No war!"
"Move or die!" Richard yelled as he picked up speed.
The red-faced woman shook her fleshy fist at Richard and his men, leading an angry chant. "Murderers! Murderers! Murderers!"
On his way past her, gritting his teeth as he screamed with the fury of the attack begun, Richard took a powerful swing, lopping off the woman's head and upraised arm. Strings of blood and gore splashed across the faces behind her even as some still chanted their empty words. The head and loose arm tumbled through the crowd. A man mad the mistake of reaching for Richard's weapon, and took the full weight of a charging thrust.
Men behind Richard hit the line of evil's guardians with unrestrained violence. People armed only with their hatred for moral clarity fell bloodied, terribly injured, and dead. The line of people collapsed before the merciless charge. Some of the people, screaming their contempt, used their fists to attack Richard's men. They were met with swift and deadly steel."

Aslo, Terry's beard and ponytail have transcended being mere parts and have merged into a whole, the Yeard!

Also, do not feed the Yeard (rather loan at your local library)

 

[milkyjay20]

Book of the year 2011: The Omen Machine or Tyra Banks' Modelland?

The rest of the literary world might as well give up all hopes of ever ascending such heights.

it's gotta be.... THE OMEN MACHINE

the omen machine has PHILOSOPHY

 

[Dresden]

Tyra Banks? That's a woman ain't it? No way her stuff compares to the Goodkind's work.

 

[milkyjay20]

Tyra Banks? That's a woman ain't it? No way her stuff compares to the Goodkind's work.

banish her into yon rape pit over there

 

[Verendus]

Return of the Evil Chicken.

You heard it here first.

 

[edgefusion]

I started reading the first book after seeing

Spoiler

how hot Craig Horner is in

the TV adaptation of The Sword of Truth. I really loved the show but Gaf totally put me off continuing to read the books, which is a shame as I was gifted 3 of them for christmas.

 

[ultron87]

Terry Goodkind is one of the worst authors I've ever read in my life. I made this huge topic about the Sword of Truth series, and sure enough GAF just exploded with shit that made just how awful he was even more astoundingly clear. The guy is a true warning to mankind, a harbinger of death and destruction unseen since WWII. This guy is the only exception to Godwin's Law: NOT bringing up how he is as bad as the Nazi's means you've left out a point so extremely salient that you've likely lost the debate.

That last sentence deserves several medals.

I've never read any of these books, but one of my friends bought the first 6 for some reason. It's an easy way to make fun of him now whenever we talk about books.

 

[methane47]

True story:

In 2002-3 ish i had read every single book from Terry Brooks (Shannara Series) And I had loved the books and his writing so much i was search desparately for another novel of his to read.... I was perusing B&N at which time I felt that strong twist of the stomach. The one that tickles your sphincter just enough to warn you that If you are not on a toilet in like 30 minutes its ALL over!!! Upon gathering my things in a rush Among the Terry Brooks books was one i hadn't read before... I quickly picked it up and checked it at the cashier and raced home...

When i finally ascended the throne i pulled out my PRIZE... and Behold.... what had I done. I had picked up a terry goodkind book thinking it was terry brooks... I TRIED reading it... i REALLY Tried but alas It was soo boring i threw it away... What a waste of college money.

 

[wrowa]

I love how Goodkind tried to portray pacifists as evil people.

 

[wrowa]

Not just this, but he tried to write Richard as somehow unable to do anything other than murder a crowd of them. You know, for his own safety. From them dangerous pacifists. Yeah.

Otherwise their hatred for morality could have infected him! He had no other choice!

 

[The Technomancer]

Goodkind would have been a genius if halfway through SoT he revealed that Richard was the villain all along, and the rest of the series followed a series of heroes trying to stop this delusional psychopath who believes he's a hero.

 

[Dresden]

Goodkind would have been a genius if halfway through SoT he revealed that Richard was the villain all along, and the rest of the series followed a series of heroes trying to stop this delusional psychopath who believe's he's a hero.

Sounds like the work of someone who needs some time off in the rape-pit. You lack moral clarity.

 

[Husker86]

Will buy this when it comes to Kindle. Sword of Truth series was my first series ever (just started reading last year) and I enjoyed it. Maybe because I had no previous reading experience, but I liked it a lot. Curious to see where Omen Machine takes the story.

 

[JasonUresti]

Will buy this when it comes to Kindle. Sword of Truth series was my first series ever (just started reading last year) and I enjoyed it. Maybe because I had no previous reading experience, but I liked it a lot. Curious to see where Omen Machine takes the story.

Yes, people grown to maturity in isolation tanks are Goodkind's target audience.

 

[thomaser]

I love how Goodkind tried to portray pacifists as evil peope.

Not just this, but he tried to write Richard as somehow unable to do anything other than murder a crowd of them. You know, for his own safety. From them dangerous pacifists. Yeah.

I've never read anything by Goodkind and never will, but that episode gives me a mental image of this Richard guy as the literary equivalent to Anders Behring Breivik. Killing a bunch of unarmed people because of a warped morality where good is bad and bad is good. I don't know if this is a fair comparison, but Goodkind sure seems like a dick.

 

[Husker86]

Yes, people grown to maturity in isolation tanks are Goodkind's target audience.

How mature of you.

 

[jon bones]

How mature of you.

How old are you, btw? Just curious cause of the "just started reading last year" bit - presumably 25?

 

[Husker86]

How old are you, btw? Just curious cause of the "just started reading last year" bit - presumably 25?

Yeah 25. Started reading for pleasure when I got an iPad and eventually got a Kindle.

 

[JasonUresti]

How mature of you.

Sorry to upset you, chief. I was just poking a little fun at how you wrote that, made it seem like you were some kind of robot or experiment who just got switched on the other day.

Tommie Frazier is my favorite college QB of all time, by the way.

 

[Husker86]

Sorry to upset you, chief. I was just poking a little fun at how you wrote that, made it seem like you were some kind of robot or experiment who just got switched on the other day.

Tommie Frazier is my favorite college QB of all time, by the way.

Well I know how much hate the series gets so honestly I was trying preemptively defend myself by showing my ignorance of literature. I also don't sit and read into deeper meaning of books/movies too far so maybe that made it easier for me; there aren't too many pieces of entertainment that I can't get some enjoyment out of. I'm sure that will change over time.

 

[Salazar]

I've never read anything by Goodkind and never will, but that episode gives me a mental image of this Richard guy as the literary equivalent to Anders Behring Breivik. Killing a bunch of unarmed people because of a warped morality where good is bad and bad is good. I don't know if this is a fair comparison, but Goodkind sure seems like a dick.

Goodkind has a great fondness for telling people that his depiction of evil is terribly sophisticated because he represents villains as "thinking that they are doing the right thing".

NB: This ties in with his spluttering disgust for liberals, peace-protesters, and so on. The acute sense of these people that they are "doing the right thing" sets off alarm bells for Terry.

This doesn't seem enormously persuasive to me, because Jagang [vastly muscled leader of the anti-Magic army the Imperial Order, fond of greasy chicken and twirling his moustache, able to "dream-walk"], at any rate, seemed extremely, jovially conscious that he was a bad motherfucker. Even more so Darken Rahl, Demmin Nass [the paedophile who gets his testes fed to him], and Drefan. Tobias Brogan [honcho of the Blood of the Fold, another anti-magic inquisition] seems the one to whom it is most applicable, but he is also one of the most tedious villains Goodkind has managed to create.

["FILTHY STREGANICHA, NO I WON'T COME TO BED, I'M GOING TO STAY UP AND PACE ANGRILY."]

And Richard is, like you say, possessed by a bizarre moral certainty. Part of this is forced by the plot. As the Seeker, exerciser of the power of the Sword of Truth, Richard has to be minutely, unwaveringly certain that someone deserves to get sliced up in order for him to be able to whack them with the sword. He has a loophole if he turns the sword white (which he does with increasing frequency through the series), but in general, he is functionally bereft of ethical nuance.

And he is, you'd better believe, the motherfucking exception. How does he know he is morally perfect ? He fucking knows. Shut the fuck up.

Return of the Evil Chicken.

You heard it here first.

I will lose my shit if there are any comebacks.

 

[jon bones]

Yeah 25. Started reading for pleasure when I got an iPad and eventually got a Kindle.

Welcome aboard.


“A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only one.”
— A Dance With Dragons, by George R. R. Martin

 

[Salazar]

Pat's Fantasy Hotlist dug up a quote from Mystar, a friend of Goodkind who has been defending him on the internet for years.

BUT ABC/Disney would not be denied. "We know a block buster when we see it"... This also is fleshed out in the aspect that even BEFORE any hype, trailers or much of anything, this series has been picked up in over 98% of the markets...again a record breaker, and stunning ABC/Disney.

All because this is a story about Hero's...TRUE heros!. Heroic people acting in a manor that underscores the true Nobility that is mankind. It proves what Goodkind has been telling us for over 15 years now... People want heros... TRUE Heros. This is the same thing Sam Raimi, Rob Tapert Ned Nallie, ABC and Disney all agree on... This is why you see something like George R R Martin's A song of Ice and Fire always failing by comparison, why it is still sitting on the shelf, why the screen play has had to have been rewritten several times already, and it is still sitting there... It has no true hero's and no honor for life... People want to feel good about their heros, they want Heros, they can believe in!!!

http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2011/08/flashback-mystar-vs-asoiaf.html

It's fairly certain, I think, that Goodkind shares this view of his work and of its principal characters. I think the books are sincerely intended to be read as the passage of a morally immaculate man (Richard) through an unclean and difficult world.

 

[braves01]

“A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only one.”
— A Dance With Dragons, by George R. R. Martin

I couldn't agree more. Great quote.

 

[Salazar]

The tv series keeps some of the kinkier shit (well, the Mord Sith and their magical torture dildos) but largely excises the mean-spiritedness and Objectivist underpinnings of the books in favor of a fun, semi-serious swords-n-sorcery type of premise.

Terry is unsurprised that the series got canned, and perhaps even slightly glad - he was pretty pissed that they sacrificed his hardcore Objectivism and kinkiness.

Does Terry's Wife (Jeri Goodkind) Read the Books ?

"My wife loves to read my books. She shares my outlook on life and so enjoys the way that I weave that outlook into the stories. I never could understand why some writers treat women as helpless. Every woman I know is strong in her own way"

rofl Terry you son of a bitch.

Any Parallels to the Real World Found Within the Books ?

Absolutely...These associations can be as subtle as a waterfall description that may actually exist in Maine, or possibly even an immoral king that shares the same initials as a former United States President.

Clinton, if you were wondering.

http://www.terrygoodkind.com/resources-faq.shtml

 

[ScrabbleDude]

I read the first six books when I was in high school. And they were so bad. I had been reading Wheel of Time, and noticed how so many Sword of Truth elements were pretty much stolen from WoT. But I kept reading anyway. Never thought about all the rape and other stupid shit.

Looking back, I actually really liked Faith of the Fallen. It was the only one I enjoyed. Never started Pillars of Creation though.

 

[Salazar]

I had been reading Wheel of Time, and noticed how so many Sword of Truth elements were pretty much stolen from WoT.

To be fair, the Sisters of the Dark (however blatant a rip-off) are more badass than the Blah Ajah.

 

[markot]

This is why you see something like George R R Martin's A song of Ice and Fire always failing by comparison, why it is still sitting on the shelf, why the screen play has had to have been rewritten several times already, and it is still sitting there... It has no true hero's and no honor for life... People want to feel good about their heros, they want Heros, they can believe in!!!

lol.

 

[The Technomancer]

Any Parallels to the Real World Found Within the Books ?

Absolutely...These associations can be as subtle as a waterfall description that may actually exist in Maine, or possibly even an immoral king that shares the same initials as a former United States President.

Really Terry? Really?

 

[scoot3r]

ITT we bash Goodkind lol good stuff. I guess im the only one who actually enjoyed the books lol

 

[Salazar]

I guess im the only one who actually enjoyed the books lol

Not true. I loved them the first time I read them. I took them pretty damned seriously - as works of a strong imagination and even as demonstrations of a prose style.

I no longer take the books seriously, and I find them pretty vile in a whole lot of respects, but I am glad they exist. They are stimulatingly terrible. Goodkind has a tincture of narrative wherewithal: he is a catastrophically bad writer for the most part, but he is not (whatever I said in the OP) a entirely untalented man. Just a below-average hack who decided to use his meagre powers to advance Objectivism and a whole bunch of nauseating sexual, social, and political attitudes.

 

[AlphaDragoon]

Kahlan thought she was sleeping with Drefan (Richard's prostitute murdering half-brother). She was actually sleeping with Richard, but she didn't know it. After she had done it, with eventual consent and then erotic rapture, she said something like "don't tell Richard".

And lightning cracked, showing his true identity, and Richard said "I think....Richard...already knows".

*Kahlan scream*

Which is simultaneously extraordinarily cheesy and a pretty badass scene.

Seriously? Seriously?!

Wow, this writer sucks but that is like 10 million man points to that Richard guy. And I don't know how anybody would be able to root for that Kahlan girl as a heroine after the kind of fuck-over she tried to pull on him with his own brother.

 

[Basileus777]

To be fair, the Sisters of the Dark (however blatant a rip-off) are more badass than the Blah Ajah.

Badass? Don't they all end up as slaves forced to pleasure that Emperor who can control dreams? It's been many years since I read any of those books and I've tried to forget them.

I guess they do have sex with demons, but Goodkind has nothing on Scott Bakker there. Bakker's rape demons and aliens with black semen and glistening cocks top anything Goodkind has done.

 

[Hasenfeffer]

I was really into this series in high school. It wasn't too "fantasy-like" for my taste, and didn't seem offensively bad for me. I got up to Chainfire before I finally stopped because Goodkind got even more blatantly obvious w/ his preaching in chapters upon chapters with little to no plot progression and Richard being an annoying whiny emo twat.

 

[Salazar]

Badass? Don't they all end up as slaves forced to pleasure that Emperor who can control dreams?

Pretty much. But up to that (total loss of power at the wandering hands of a muscular man) point (which could probably be represented on a graph - the Goodkind Vector), they mess folks up in convincingly powerful magical ways.

And Jagang was just a super powerful dude. There's no shame in coming out second best to a cube of muscle with black eyes who can invade dreams.

 

[Salazar]

To be fair to her, I think there was some convoluted explanation for why she had to do it.

Yeah, a prophecy that she had to betray Richard.

Ordinarily, she and Richard weren't able to have sex, because her Confessor powers would be released at the point of orgasm and Richard would become a vegetable. Shota (milf witch, fancies Richard but thinks he is dangerous, keeps threatening to kill them or any offspring they conceive) engineered some magical way for them to fuck.

 

[A Black Falcon]

If it's that bad, why would you even need to write the OP with such a silly, sarcastic style?

A lot of George R. R. Martin fans seem to really, really hate Terry Goodkind's writing. And this forum has a lot of GRRM fans on it. That's probably why, I assume...

It's not entirely fair, a lot of those quotes are either out of context and make sense in context, or aren't as stupid as they make them sound.

I do have plenty of issues with Goodkind, certainly -- I strongly disagree with his conservative, Objectivist philosophy for instance, and as the series gets farther in the Objectivism becomes more and more blatant (that "pacifists are evil" book was so messed up...), and I do think that all of his books could stand to be significantly shortened (I like plenty of long fantasy books, but his... they could be shorter for sure.), and yeah he does have some issues with his female characters certainly (though many of the situations do make sense, not all of them do, and they're a bit too frequent to not make it obvious that he has issues with women...), but... no, I don't entirely hate his books. His writing's okay, and particularly earlier on I liked the story and characters. Not all of his female characters are bad, Kahlan's a good character most of the time for instance, and there are other good ones as well. I liked the fantasy series that the first four books make up. It does get a lot harder to like Richard once you hit stuff like him killing pacifists though. And while I read almost all of the series, I finally gave up on the second to last Sword of Truth book, and don't have the last one... though honestly, it was probably the "Kahlan is MIA for most of two books" thing that finally did in my interest in the series, as much as anything...

So yeah, not sure if I'll read this or not. Maybe, if I get around to finishing Sword of Truth first, sometime.

Someone needs to do a similar post detailing all the fucked up pedo shit in A Song of Ice and Fire.

I sort of said this above, but sure, I'm sure it'd be possible to make an out-of-context bash post about Martin's writing, sort of like the one the GRRM fans made there about Goodkind. Out-of-context quotes might be amusing but really aren't accurate.

I mean, Martin is a better writer than Goodkind, certainly. I would say that. But Goodkind's not all bad.

Years later I read a few sequels (I think I got as far as the fourth or fifth book in the series) but I got bored of it before I even noticed the influence of Objectivism (which I wouldn't even mind if done right).

Yeah, he intentionally mostly kept the Objectivism out of the first four books, which are more traditional fantasy stuff, before adding more and more in each book after that.

Pat's Fantasy Hotlist dug up a quote from Mystar, a friend of Goodkind who has been defending him on the internet for years.



http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2011/08/flashback-mystar-vs-asoiaf.html

It's fairly certain, I think, that Goodkind shares this view of his work and of its principal characters. I think the books are sincerely intended to be read as the passage of a morally immaculate man (Richard) through an unclean and difficult world.

I think you're right that that's the intention. I, like most people, strongly disagree with that, but the books are kind of interesting even so, if just to show what this very different (and messed up) viewpoint believes in...

rofl Terry you son of a bitch.

Kahlan's definitely not helpless, though... I mean, yeah, he has far too many rape or near-rape scenes to say something like that with a straight face, probably, but it is true that there are some mostly strong female characters in the books. There is some justification for saying that.

Badass? Don't they all end up as slaves forced to pleasure that Emperor who can control dreams? It's been many years since I read any of those books and I've tried to forget them.

Perhaps so, I forget, but the Emperor is the main villain of the series... badguys doing evil things shouldn't be too surprising. Goodkind does like to have those evil things be sexual more often than many fantasy authors, though, that's true. But is that wrong and something he should be bashed for, or partially messed up and unwanted but partially also showing things that realistically would happen but most fantasy authors would never show? I could make a case for either of those, really.

I guess they do have sex with demons, but Goodkind has nothing on Scott Bakker there. Bakker's rape demons and aliens with black semen and glistening cocks top anything Goodkind has done.

And (in Sword of Truth) their demon sex is sort of consensual too, I mean they have to do it to join the dark sisterhood. I wouldn't call that scene, at least, rape.

 

[Salazar]

Cheers, A Black Falcon. I agree with most of what you suggest.

I concede that lifting quotes from Goodkind's books makes them seem perhaps more ridiculous than they are, but I think it is

a) a necessary critical process
b) not making them substantially more silly than they already are.

I don't asperse Goodkind because I like Martin; I think the work that the Westeros boards have done, at the vanguard of the anti-Goodkind internet movement, gives too strong an impression that criticism of Goodkind is motivated by reverence for Martin.

 

[Dresden]

I guess they do have sex with demons, but Goodkind has nothing on Scott Bakker there. Bakker's rape demons and aliens with black semen and glistening cocks top anything Goodkind has done.

Don't forget the part where they cut holes into a man just to rape him harder.

 

[JORMBO]

fuck you guys

i'm looking forward to reading it!

 

[Salazar]

fuck you guys

i'm looking forward to reading it!

I don't know where you got the impression that I'm not excited.

I never got far enough into Legend of the Seeker to see a mriswith.

These are serpentine corrupted ex-Wizards, who wear chameleonic cloaks and fight with tuning forks called "yabree". They call Richard "skin brother" because he took a cloak off a mriswith he killed. He was noted for this feat, and it made a Sister of the Light named Pasha all the more desperate to get naked with him.

 

[Amir0x]

fuck you guys

i'm looking forward to reading it!

why would you stop looking forward to reading it?

Who cares if Terry Goodkind is one of the worst authors alive today? If you like him, you like him. Fuck the po-lice.

 

[Salazar]

why would you stop looking forward to reading it?

Who cares if Terry Goodkind is one of the worst authors alive today? If you like him, you like him. Fuck the po-lice.

For real. And if Terry puts everything he has into a SoT book, it will be entertaining.

 

[Tyree]

Kahlan thought she was sleeping with Drefan (Richard's prostitute murdering half-brother). She was actually sleeping with Richard, but she didn't know it. After she had done it, with eventual consent and then erotic rapture, she said something like "don't tell Richard".

And lightning cracked, showing his true identity, and Richard said "I think....Richard...already knows".

*Kahlan scream*

Which is simultaneously extraordinarily cheesy and a pretty badass scene.

Don't forget period blow jobs.

"When she took him in her mouth, she tasted her own blood. She forced herself to ignore the taste as she urged him to react."

 

[Salazar]

Don't forget period blow jobs.

Fair enough.

Memorable Character Quotes from Wizard's First Rule.

"Just remember, if anything goes wrong, you die first" - Richard.

"Sometimes it's easier to make a decision if you aren't burdened with a knowledge of history" - Zedd.

"I am more than a woman" - Kahlan.

"You call this a proper escort ?" - Zedd.

"I'll never look at an apple the same way again" - Richard.

"I fear nothing but that I should fail you" - Nass.

"The answer you want is within yourself. You must seek it" - Shar.

"This looks a little too much like bait on a hook to me" - Richard.

"You play a dangerous game, Confessor Kahlan" - Shar.

http://www.terrygoodkind.com/books-01wizardsfirstrule.shtml

MEMORABLE QUOTES. Terry's A game.

 

[Salazar]

"Graaaatch lug Raaaachaaaarrrg"

NEVER FORGET

Well yeah. That's a poignant bit they missed. Zedd's toasted toads stuff is also gold.

I'm glad Terry has revamped his website. The forums should be up and running soon.

http://fantasybookcritic.blogspot.com/2007/12/interview-with-terry-goodkind.html

Q: What was it like to write “Confessor”, knowing that it was the last book in the Sword of Truth series?

Terry Goodkind: I didn't have time for any emotions because the schedule was so incredibly tight. I just didn't have time to ponder anything, I only had time to be in the world, in the book with the characters, writing their story. “Confessor” is a book that I've been waiting over a decade to write. I simply had to get it done. My publisher gave me a schedule for the book that was well outside my comfort zone, so I was writing “Confessor” on the ragged edge. I wrote the last 80 pages in one sitting, total stream of consciousness. I never re-read it, I just sent it off to the publisher. What you read in “Confessor”, the last 80 pages of the book, is what came up on my computer in one sitting, no editing, nothing. That's a decade worth of planning and just writing it out. It's raw Goodkind [laughs].

I adore that [laughs].

Nature cannot have a value independent of mankind, and this is what the environmental movement has become: a religion. They've ascribed value to nature absent mankind. They've ascribed value to nature, and so what happens is, whatever you do to harm nature, people say, "You've harmed this good thing, that makes mankind bad." They're using that line of philosophy to hate mankind, because mankind is detrimental to nature. They've turned nature into a religion, making into something that is holy without reality. If nature has value, it's for how mankind can use it. It's incumbent upon human beings to respect nature for their own rational self-interests.

For example, poisoning a river is bad not because it hurts nature, because nature has no value in and of itself. It's bad because it [poisoning the river] hurts mankind. You poison the river and other people are going to get poisoned, and then you're infringing on their right to exist. You want clean air because you need clean air to breathe, to leave longer. Respect for the environment meant should be based on mankind's [needs].

Animals, with the exception of Brophy the man-wolf and Gratch the loveable Gar, can get fuuuuucked.

And for anybody with lingering doubts as to whether this fellow is a pernicious creep who deserves more contempt than GAF can collectively muster:

Take, for example, what we're doing in Iraq. The basic thing we're trying to do is enforce democracy. Democracy is a free-floating concept. There's no goodness [inherent] in democracy. Gang rape is democracy in action. Why should we enforce democracy? Why should we have Americans die so [Iraq] can elect a government who wants to kill us? It's stupid. Force should be used by a government just like it should be used by an individual: to prevent someone else from harm. That's the only valid, moral, ethical purpose of force: to protect your life. If somebody's trying to protect you, you should protect your life.

We have Americans dying over there to enforce democracy so that [Iraq] can vote to kill us. It's absurd. There's nothing holy about democracy. The sidetrack of adopting slogans like "making the world safe for democracy"... it's a free-floating concept; there's nothing good [inherent in] democracy. Democracy can be good if it's supported by other ethical values; justice, for example, and not hurting other people. But we're not enforcing a moral form of democracy; we're just supporting the idea of democracy in general, and there's nothing more about democracy in and of itself.