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[cireza]

I thought that after 4 pages it would be pretty nice to make a summary of your arguments so far :

dumb

typical narrow-minded fanboy

anyone complaining about the controller never used it or already had bias.

however the Jaguar had been most impacted by early internet revisionism

That's a good summary for people who like to make shit up and lie about what was said I guess.

You just don't understand

This blaming CD media thing is also poorly thought out

At best this is a bad faith reply.

Another bad faith argument

I didn't forget anything, you are the one who is ignoring information to validate your false beliefs.

"looks" are not relevant, and this is the cruz of your bad faith argument.

No you aren't using common sense.

This is something that shouldn't be hard to understand.

you have proven your ignorance

Trying to swerve around that fact is worthless.

Except that doesn't make sense, in this case we KNOW the jaguar is stronger than the Neo Geo in 2D capabilities with actual proof/examples

Continuing to prove you have no clue what you're talking about.

because you have no knowledge

because you never really had an argument and have been trolling in bad faith

You have not only proven you don't know anything

This is a common problem with people who don't understand this but this is just silly

This is coming form the guy

How many goal posts are you going to move?

have no clue about

are making fanboy oversimplification arguments

So you project that lack of knowledge onto other people

Trying to pretend Dezooming is "scaling" is also a desperate attempt

you are just making a pointless argument

Are you hallucinating? The only one lying is you

So now you're either just imaging things or lying yourself

I don't think you understand

Ridiculous, much subject changing going on moving away from the thread

You are the only one moving away from losing topics in your posts

and switching to something else, projecting, and spreading misinformation with ever changing inconsistencies

Your suffering

as the proof has been compiled above all in one place

The above comparison post removes your ability to continue your vain attempt at trying to be misleading on what the topic is about, and has provided indisputable evidence

But if you're just going to continue making false statements

It seems to me you have some problems to work out, being wrong is one thing

that just shows you're having some real problems in life.

You're on a role with the fake quotes you made up.

(I really liked this one)

You literally don't understand

You're ignorance

The bias is actually with you by intentionally refusing to learn.

is just emotional outputs nothing more

I am not as one would claim in their outburst a Jaguar fanboy

It only seems like there's a high admiration due to the pushback to those who don't want to give the failed console credit on ONE thing that it's second best in.

Here's a thought that may not have crossed your brilliant mind while you were adding nothing of value to the thread,

I'd ask you to elaborate on how I'm trolling, but I highly doubt you could articulate how the gifs above that clearly show an advantage in sprites are trolling

Also you clearly are either just completely brainless or are incredibly stubborn

dummy it makes the other systems look worse

you're making a misleading argument

The guys is so full of himself he's now positioning his ignorance as fact

best you educate yourself before going further

Already the N64 boys are moving away from the topic

People are just being emotional about consoles

You either aren't reading

You do a lot of projecting

you have no idea what you're talking about

how hard to I have to downgrade my examples until you actually get how this works

Let me tell you how poorly uneducated

is just lolworthy at best

But then you won't go that far because you know the argument is poor

You're stubbornness on being ignorant and being dishonest is impressive

It's clear you have nothing of worth to discuss

You are no longer worth even attempting to have discourse with

I'll save my energy for people who actually know how to have a discussion

That's not a game I play.

Can't waste time on anything when you don't even know what the thing is

You have been basically insulting anyone that stated things not going your way.

And one final thing :

In terms of number but not what's done to them, and the VDP2 greatly aids in that.

Except that all sprites are handled by VDP1. Again, you have no clue what you are talking about.

Without VDP1 / With VDP1 :

VDP2 is meant to handle backgrounds and planes. Not sprites.

And no need to insult me, it won't change this fact.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Outside of that incorrect remark you though was an own (VDP2 is actually used but you removed context to make it confusing what I'm addressing), what was the point of going back cross the thread adding a bunch of emojis to my posts and then making one large post with a bunch of out of context chopped up sentences? That can be done with you as well, what was even the point of this? People already read the thread an know what the actual arguments are, not what you cropped here.

 

[cireza]

Outside of that incorrect remark you though was an own (VDP2 is actually used but you removed context to make it confusing what I'm addressing)

You don't even understand what you write then ? You clearly said this about the sprites :

In terms of number but not what's done to them, and the VDP2 greatly aids in that.

Which is precisely what I quoted.

But you managed to answer without insulting me this time, I will give you that.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

You don't even understand what you write then ? You clearly said this about the sprites :

Which is precisely what I quoted.

But you managed to answer without insulting me, I will give you that.

"NUMBER" but for some reason you skipped that part. I didn't say anything about handling the sprites themselves.

Like that pointless long top post not sure what you're aim is people can just read the other pages so...

 

[cireza]

"NUMBER" but for some reason you skipped that part. I didn't say anything about handling the sprites themselves.

Like that pointless long top post not sure what you're aim is people can just read the other pages so...

Since VDP2 doesn't know what a sprite is, I don't see how it can help drawing more.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Since VDP2 doesn't know what a sprite is, I don't see how it can help drawing more.

I didn't say anything about drawing, it helped offload so there could be a larger number. VDP2 is generally a helper chip, even for 3D games. But you knew this already.

 

[cireza]

I didn't say anything about drawing, it helped offload so there could be a larger number. VDP2 is generally a helper chip, even for 3D games. But you knew this already.

VDP2 doesn't offload anything. The Saturn is built to have VDP2 handle backgrounds and VDP1 handle sprites. This is the only way of developing properly on Saturn. VDP2 is certainly not a "helper" chip.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

VDP2 doesn't offload anything. The Saturn is built to have VDP2 handle backgrounds and VDP1 handle sprites. This is the only way of developing properly on Saturn. VDP2 is certainly not a "helper" chip.

The VDP2 is specifically made to offload tasks that the VDP1 would have to do without it. This is why there are benefits to Saturn versions of several shared games with the PS1 because the PS1 doesn't have anything to split the resources with and has to go in whole sales. More resources available gave the Saturn in some cases more sprites than the PS1 version. Transparencies are another resource free benefit the VDP2 can do that the VDP1 can't.

Remember, one of the two VDPs was added late in the game with the intention of working with the VDP that was already there to improve balanced and graphical capabilities.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

So I found this demo of Conan, which was shown off at CES 1995 but never finished and released for the Jaguar

Large sprites, and it looks like the water levels rise in real-time. Looks like a smooth scrolling beat em up with background and foreground parallax effects. There's also a blue ticker at the bottom that zooms across the screen, can't read it but I assume it's something about waiting for player two to join since that's common with these type of games.

It looks like it could have been an impressive game if it was ever finished, but I wonder if this was a port or original game? It definitely has arcade beat em up art and animation. But It's the changing water levels that makes the game seem more original and would meet Ataris demands to be different from everyone else. It looks familiar but I can't seem to find anything in arcade releases that looks like that, so maybe it was going to be an original game.

 

[Futaleufu]

So I found this demo of Conan, which was shown off at CES 1995 but never finished and released for the Jaguar

Large sprites, and it looks like the water levels rise in real-time. Looks like a smooth scrolling beat em up with background and foreground parallax effects. There's also a blue ticker at the bottom that zooms across the screen, can't read it but I assume it's something about waiting for player two to join since that's common with these type of games.

It looks like it could have been an impressive game if it was ever finished, but I wonder if this was a port or original game? It definitely has arcade beat em up art and animation. But It's the changing water levels that makes the game seem more original and would meet Ataris demands to be different from everyone else. It looks familiar but I can't seem to find anything in arcade releases that looks like that, so maybe it was going to be an original game.

Sengoku 3 on Neo Geo looks better than that

 

[Dev1lXYZ]

I bought a Jaguar at launch. Cybermorph and Trevor McFur. Got a great version of Raiden…waited…waited…..Tempest 2000 finally came out and justified the purchase. AvP was another showpiece that had my crew talking. Looking back, it was a one hit wonder of a system that still has the best version of Tempest 2000 to this day.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Sengoku 3 on Neo Geo looks better than that

I would hope a finished game from 2001 would look better than an incomplete beta of a cancelled 1995 release by a small studio demoed at an event.

I bought a Jaguar at launch. Cybermorph and Trevor McFur. Got a great version of Raiden…waited…waited…..Tempest 2000 finally came out and justified the purchase. AvP was another showpiece that had my crew talking. Looking back, it was a one hit wonder of a system that still has the best version of Tempest 2000 to this day.

The waiting part, that was the problem, much of what Atari showed at their 1994 CES in preparation for a national release were in beta:



Many of these games wouldn't come out in months or over a year later than they should have, even Rayman can still do handstands. Some of the games not on the video didn't release at all.

They didn't have the money to have enough consoles ready, their developers didn't have games ready, a bad combination. They had plenty of time in 1993 to test the market witht he console and to make developer deals they should have been making since 1992, and they still were not ready.

 

[nkarafo]

the KI machine can't do any game on the super chase hardware,, i said more than once that the KI arcade machine can't run ANY game that super chase hardware uses it's capabilities for, you KNOW that's what I said, and that includes games that DONT scale.

Maybe my post got lost in the noise but i'm still interested about what those titles are

 

[Redneckerz]

The Y-Board was great because in the late 80's very early 90's, the few 3D games that existed were too slow or had crappy frame rates. So, impressive sprite scaling at 60fps was still considered state of the art.

In fact, its still awesome as heck. Galaxy Force II at 60 fps with that kind of scaling emulated doesn't do it justice if you ask me.

Then again Sega (and also Namco) were hardcore fighters of the 60 fps dream: Their early 3D polygon work is also just 60 fps, with Sega all the way up to Model 3. A very different path compared to consoles.

I wasn't aware about the H1. I thought the last sprite scaling games Sega made was in System 32, before Virtua Racing.

Its not the most known of hardware: Cool Riders used to be the only game for it for a long time.

Either way, after Virtua Racing and (let alone) Daytona USA, no sprite scaling game left any impression whatsoever. I assume these two H1 games weren't exactly successful either.

They didn't, because 3D polygons were the next big thing. But in retrospective, these games are endlessly fascinating, and the Sega H1 is a monster on these sprites. I wish it was supported properly, because it really pushes sprites.

After the Playstation brought things like Ridge Racer at home and proved 3D was good enough to completely replace even the best kind of sprite scaling, it was over.

I don't think this is necessarily the end of sprite scaling, because heck, we still have that today. Sprite scaling does have a timeless charm that 3D transformations simply can't replicate (Well, aside Guilty Gear Xrd haha).

Or well, any Ubiart game, too..

So it made no sense whatsoever for the N64 to waste resources for a sprite scaling engine, or hardware sprites, or whatever these older consoles/arcades had, after 1996. This was the 3D era. And even if you needed 2D graphics, for a platformer mostly, these consoles were capable enough to produce them via different techniques. There are 2D games in both the PS1 and N64 that look better and are more advanced than what the Jaguar could do after all. Did we really care if these images weren't "hardware sprites"? Did we care if some of the assets were flat polygons that looked like sprites? I didn't, i was too busy staring at my screen and being impressed with the 2D graphics that i was dreaming about some years before.

That doesn't mean the N64 doesn't have hardware sprites, but we have to look at SGI's output at that time. They favored IrisGL/OpenGL, being the founder's of it. They were very much about 3D rendering.

The CD-I actually has an FPS to use as an example, it's called atlantis, it's the most impressive attempt at a 3D style game and the machine is literally in pain trying to play it.

Also Ram Raid, but a significant portion goes to the online play. And Dread is done with demoscene knowledge, so i am fairly certain you could get more out of a CD-I. Heck, the TI-89 calculator has Delsgolf and that's a pretty impressive grayscale FPS using just an 68000.

Also there were Konami and Taito machines with scaling past 1994 as well if not mistaken for the former.

There was the Type-X-Zero and a custom Voodoo board, and Konami had its weird PPC/Voodoo combo hardware called the Hornet, so not sure what you are referring to.

what was even the point of this?

That you tend to use a lot of subtle and not-so-subtle insults whilst carrying your point across. At best it detracts, at worst it forfeits your from taking your argument seriously.

Sengoku 3 on Neo Geo looks better than that

I love how this own is phrased. Just clean.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

i'm still interested about what those titles are

Oh you want to know of the games that don't just scale into the screen.

Well there's this FPS Gunbuster

and even the budget "low cost" variation of this hardware family retains a lot of the same capabilities even for shooters (assets just not as large)

All very capable sprite hardware with some breathtaking effects, which is what the hardware is designed to do. Multi-featured that can do many things with sprites and backgrounds for all the games using these. very powerful for 1993-1994,

The type of 2D you' hope to see on consoles but didn't.

Except for the budget friendly hardware, some of those got ported to the Saturn, including that gunlock game, called Rayforce a several other names. Saturn version has some missing graphical elements and sprite effects but it's a really good port otherwise.

But nothing from the pure hardware was ever ported. Including Super Chase itself, unless there's some arcade compilation I missed, I doubt those will ever get ported. Taitos under Square and they are very selective.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Then again Sega (and also Namco) were hardcore fighters of the 60 fps dream: Their early 3D polygon work is also just 60 fps, with Sega all the way up to Model 3.

Wasn't Model 1 30fps.

Also Ram Raid, but a significant portion goes to the online play. , but a significant portion goes to the online play. And Dread is done with demoscene knowledge, so i am fairly certain you could get more out of a CD-I.

You're ignoring the limitations involved with the rest of the hardware and focusing on one processor alone as if imagining that it's surrounded by hardware that gives you flexibility in the dev environment when the CD-I is restricted.

I love how this own is phrased. Just clean.

Better example of a forfeit when you call someone comparing a beta from a small studio shown off at an event in 1995 to a game that came out in 2001 an "own", and doesn't even look better than the gifs in the OP. That post wasn't even trying to say that it was an example of the best 2D graphics, just another missed opportunity with an unreleased/unfinished game.

 

[nkarafo]

I don't think this is necessarily the end of sprite scaling, because heck, we still have that today.

I think today there's a lot more appreciation for retro games or trying to relieve the past. But this wasn't the case deep in the 5th or 6th gen era. I'm not aware of any first person/racing sprite scaling games on the PS2/GC/XBOX, outside old game compilations. Or even in the XBOX360/PS3/Wii era for that matter, except for the odd indie game (since the indie scene pretty much started during the 7th gen era). Not such games on PC either, we were too busy pushing our 3D cards.

I suppose sprite scaling was still used in games that had 3D environments but still used sprites for enemies and items (like many FPS games in the mid 90s) but not so much for simulating 3D environments, the way X/Y or System 32 did.

Oh you want to know of the games that don't just scale into the screen.

Well there's this FPS Gunbuster

These look like sprite scaling games to me.

 

[cireza]

The VDP2 is specifically made to offload tasks that the VDP1 would have to do without it. This is why there are benefits to Saturn versions of several shared games with the PS1 because the PS1 doesn't have anything to split the resources with and has to go in whole sales. More resources available gave the Saturn in some cases more sprites than the PS1 version. Transparencies are another resource free benefit the VDP2 can do that the VDP1 can't.

Remember, one of the two VDPs was added late in the game with the intention of working with the VDP that was already there to improve balanced and graphical capabilities.

As VDP2 is dedicated to handle background layers, I doubt that it was added "late". We also often read that the second CPU and 3D features were added late the Saturn. Which makes little to no sense. And "late" doesn't mean anything anyway.

A Saturn without the VDP2 would be a Saturn that cannot draw any background, which of course makes complete sense.

Legend tells that two weeks before launch, an engineer from SEGA said during a meeting :

Are we going to be able to make pretty games if there is no background ?

SEGA decided to add the VDP2 at this precise moment. A stroke of genius. And I haven't talked about the guy who came the day before released and said that there wasn't a controller bundled with the console.

As the Saturn was always meant to handle 2D from the very beginning, you can be sure that VDP2 was present from the very beginning... And VDP1 can perfectly do transparency as well.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

and VDP1 can perfectly do transparency as well.

Not resource free, the VDP2 can do it without any hit to performance.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Anyway repost form the last page, since there's a lot of confusing conversation paths deviating from the topic and this puts everything in one place to see the differences between the consoles for specifically sprite capabilities. It is also here for those to address any objections that relate to this post and the topic. But as you can see, I took into consideration not just a moving play area on a broad scale for each, but how fast the sprites move, how many, how high-res the sprites are, and if there is any slowdown or not, plus the frame rate.

NEO GEO​

Riding Hero

• Low choppy frame rate that's inconsistent
• Low color count
• Neo Geo can't scale properly, can only shrink and restore to original size of sprite (it regrows frame by frame instead of scaling to imitate the effect)
• Lack of sprites on screen.
• Can't move sprites fast enough, especially smoothly
• Poor draw distance
• Choppy background Parallax
• Mostly empty field absent of detail
• Low resolution sprites

N64​

Zool

• Low frame rate that can dip to the teens
• Struggles to scale sprites even with polygonal help and not sprite only.
• Movement choppiness
• More detail than Neo Geo
• Low res and blurry sprites on character and sprites (not polygons) in the environment
• Rotation lacks smoothness, struggles with choppiness.
• Low number of sprites being scaled, only one directly being moved slowly.

PS1​

Night Striker

• 30FPS with dips (Saturn version 60fps consistent)
• Low res sprites and buildings, some road sprites seem cleaner
• Flicker and choppiness when enemy copters appear and move toward center of the screen.
• Bullets also 60fps
• Scaling is inconsistent and jerks around
• Good color count but not too high.
• Low draw distance (Saturn version is farther)
• Low amount of objects scaling on screen at once, buildings are sporadic and move slowly in choppy fashion.

Atari Jaguar​

Super Burnout

• 60FPS for all sprites
• Day night cycle
• Large number of sprites/objects scaling in
• Sprites scaling in are themselves large (and other sizes including the short side rails, signs, etc)
• High resolution sprites with vibrant colors and detail
• 60FPS remains when other racers are on screen
• Good draw distance
• Animation (clouds) and parallax in the background
• Smooth buttery fluidity
• Sprites and environment give a sense of depth and scale when the player is swinging left to right, or going up or down hills, still at 60FPS
• Can move sprites around fast

Sega Saturn​

Special Criminal Investigation

• 60FPS
• Large number of very large and other sized sprites scaling on screen.
• More animations for player sprite (skids, spins, passenger popping out to shoot)
• More animation for some of the opposing sprites
• Physics when crashing into or running over/past objects
• Environmental effects (rain, smoke, flying helicopter, etc) that change in real time.
• Area theme changes instantly when going in and out of tunnels with new sprites.
• Smooth and fluid animation, occasionally chops (rare)
• Good draw distance
• Opposition can move anywhere on the track instead of of forward
• Very high color count
• High resolution sprites with great detail
• Lightning effect
• Can move sprites on screen very fast.

With this it's obvious that compared to the N64, Neo Geo, and PS1, the Jaguar can moves sprites faster and more smoothly than the other 3, and it can scale with more sprites, with high res sprites, and a higher color count, while also having animation and parallax in the background, while also not slowing down when there are more big bike sprites on the screen, even if it was all the other racers bunched up, with a day night cycle that happens in real-time. You don't have the limitations of the Neo Geo, the blurry low res struggling N64, and the choppiness and low on screen sprite quantity of the PS1.

The Atari Jaguar's architecture combined with the Blitter+OPL is the best sprite engine of the 4. What it can DO with the sprites and the technology that lets it do it, is superior than the others.

However, the Saturn is on another level because it was targeting 2D graphics ahead of the what the Jaguar was aiming for, as it was designed to match graphics that were more current in the arcades. it to has many of the same advantages of the Jaguar but more, with better scaling, more objects and colors on screen, higher res sprites for characters and objects, and the VDP2 helper aid in in doing all kinds of things with sprites without losing (most of the time) quality or becoming blocky.

With that said, it is a shame that 2D was sent to the dustbin (ironically, outside of the arcades) quickly and we never got more released on the Jaguar.

Even the Saturn i feel there was a shortage of games that actually utilized the hardware. In Arcades and on computers both graphic trends were valid, but on consoles it became in favor of 3D very quickly. But this is largely due to the stigma attached, a 2D machine was (wrongfully) considered a weak machine, and 3D was deemed to be more impressive, the future, and another popular belief back then was 2D had nowhere else to go.

That wasn't helped at all by those 2D sprites releases that didn't improve much over the SNES/MD other than color count and resolution (Capcom Mega Man games) but these days people are now more receptive to 2D sprite graphics for games....

For indies.

Yes some of the bigger companies have put sprite games on digital stores and mobile in recent years, but I doubt we will see a major sprite title at a best buy gaming isle with A or AA budgets again. At least on consoles, might see them on portables which they always had a presence in. It was really the PSP that tried to do away with that.

 

[Celine]

PS1 has Road Rash which looks incredibly similar to this, but with 3D polygonal back grounds.

It had to have polygonal backgrounds.
By mid '90s the "super scaler" kind of graphics were out of fashion.

Even an obvious Outrun clone like Cruis'n USA, and its sequel Cruis'n World, leveraged the 3D graphics to woos the bystanders.

Cruis'n World on N64:

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

First time I've ever heard anyone call Crusin an Outrun clone.

 

[Redneckerz]

Wasn't Model 1 30fps.

They are, but the sky is scrolling at 60 fps.

You're ignoring the limitations involved with the rest of the hardware and focusing on one processor alone as if imagining that it's surrounded by hardware that gives you flexibility in the dev environment when the CD-I is restricted.

I don't necessarily believe in too restrictive limitations. See Falcon Quake 2 esque engine and Dread. I do think CD-I is more limited despite rocking a similar 68000-class processor, but i do think a Wolfenstein 3D port would be do-able, even on the CD-I.

Better example of a forfeit when you call someone comparing a beta from a small studio shown off at an event in 1995 to a game that came out in 2001 an "own", and doesn't even look better than the gifs in the OP. That post wasn't even trying to say that it was an example of the best 2D graphics, just another missed opportunity with an unreleased/unfinished game.

No technical documents yet.

I think today there's a lot more appreciation for retro games or trying to relieve the past. But this wasn't the case deep in the 5th or 6th gen era. I'm not aware of any first person/racing sprite scaling games on the PS2/GC/XBOX, outside old game compilations. Or even in the XBOX360/PS3/Wii era for that matter, except for the odd indie game (since the indie scene pretty much started during the 7th gen era). Not such games on PC either, we were too busy pushing our 3D cards.

No but you see, you are wrong. And not just wrong, but typically wrong, which is the most common case of the wrongsies. When you are typically wrong, it is advised to leave the thread and have some posts rest.

Eddie is definitely wrong, which is more chronical. Some post revalidation would help.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

No technical documents yet.

Why would you need technical documents to see comparing an unfinished game shown at an event in 1995 in beta to a 2001 completed late Neo Geo release doesn't make any logical sense? It's not a technical showcase, it was just another example of a missed opportunity with the Jaguar having yet another cancelled game. Which happened a lot but Atari is to blame for most of that.

They are, but the sky is scrolling at 60 fps.

That's not really the "fighter" though as you say, but yes.

Speaking of the jaguar Fight For Life could have been good if there was a better dev team, they did have ONE Virtua Fighter guy involved. If early Saturn shown anything is that even some of the earlier polygonal arcade games could sell consoles to some extent, though Virtua Fighter wasn't that popular on Saturn outside of Japan, but considering the Jaguar had a over a year headstart that may have changed things if the game wasn't delayed and had some talent behind it.

I don't necessarily believe in too restrictive limitations. See Falcon Quake 2 esque engine and Dread. I do think CD-I is more limited despite rocking a similar 68000-class processor, but i do think a Wolfenstein 3D port would be do-able, even on the CD-I.

Dread is a compromised Doom for the earlier ST line, Falcon can run it easily, and Quake, so Quake 2 with cuts isn't out of the question.

The CD-I however is much more restricted hardware and is two generations behind the Falcon. It also has resources being used for things that have nothing to do with games which gives less for games and that impacts how far you can go. I can see a slight improvement to Atlantis but the CD-I going further than that will require controlling what resources the machine used.

in 1993 Phillips rebooted the CD-I, which is why some gaming mags included the CD-I among the PSX and 3DO even though it's a Mega Drive/SNES generation systems, and released a new model specifically for games because they believed they could provide an excellent experience worth the price, which was cut down from other CD-I models. But instead of changing it so it could be more efficient at games it had was practically no different than the other entry models except with more cuts to keep the price low. Its a similar problem the CDTV had. Some potential if it was a gaming focused device but the hardware and resources was trying to be the jack of all trades.

You also need to consider it has no sprite hardware or anything to help make them so you have to manually produce them, it has bad scrolling, has an animation limit, and some games will lose sound if other resources are being pulled (Zeldas Adventure is an infamous example.), Ram Raid also mirrors the ceiling and the floor, and the 1 MB of RAM is split 512KB each.

While some of the stuff on it is impressive visually for actual gameplay it's very poor. There's not much that can be done with sprites since there isn't any hardware for it which results in unsmooth jerky movement and limited animation frames. Levels are build with the CD-I disc storage and the build in video capabilities of the system.

The hardware mind you, came from 1988 with the intention of limited interaction, encyclopedias, music, and professional applications it released in 1991 primarily because the asking price at the time was too high to even consider selling the product. They had to do a few things to cut the price and those early players were still way too expensive but affordable for the business world at least. Games were part of the jack of all trades but if you look at the earlier releases they were pretty basic, they only changed how aggressive they were with games later when they saw potential profits for it. It was never designed hardware wise for gaming at all beyond a level some executive on vacation my use it for, or his kids when he didn't need to use it edit his images or whatever he was doing.

Then there's the OS, too much in the way of getting more out of the hardware, which is already crippled. I will admit i am impressed with some of the stuff it can do that isn't over relying on FMV, however this is below the PC Engine in capabilities in many areas.

The DVC can add an additional 1.5MB of ram and some games do require it but most of these are FMV or FMV reliant. The ones that aren't will make most gamers run to even the half-baked releases on the MD/SNES.

The biggest mistake Phillips made was not changing guidance for other manufacturers on building CD-I players and not changing the specs before release. In 3 years many tech chips that were more capable than Philips 88 standard were more affordable than they were in 1988. I can see a multimedia machine working with if the outdated tech was replaced, but each one of them had a weakness somewhere. I think CDTV was the best option with the best chance to succeed if they figured out how to make the price lower and pushed for payment plans.

Still too expensive giving it's outdated tech in 1993. Its like Selling a NES next to a SNES at $300 more.

 

[Redneckerz]

Why would you need technical documents to see comparing an unfinished game shown at an event in 1995 in beta to a 2001 completed late Neo Geo release doesn't make any logical sense? It's not a technical showcase, it was just another example of a missed opportunity with the Jaguar having yet another cancelled game. Which happened a lot but Atari is to blame for most of that.

I am talking in a general sense, not a specific sense. You use comparison gifs, not technical documents or papers to back your arguments up.

That's not really the "fighter" though as you say, but yes.

Only if you only take Model 1 as the standard and that would be wrong. Their sprite work was 60 fps, and most of their 3D polygon work was 60 fps.

Dread is a compromised Doom for the earlier ST line, Falcon can run it easily, and Quake, so Quake 2 with cuts isn't out of the question.

Its not really mean't for Falcon in the first place (Dread) so sure.

Quake 2 is far more out of the question because a standard Falcon (030 with DSP) is already skirting it for Quake (Amiga's basically need a good 060 to get some performance out of it, and a 060 is comparable to an entry level Pentium in integer performance. It is a lot slower in FPU performance which is what you need for Quake anyway. So a 030 doing Quake 2, even with cuts? Yes, still a highly optimized affair.

The CD-I however is much more restricted hardware and is two generations behind the Falcon. It also has resources being used for things that have nothing to do with games which gives less for games and that impacts how far you can go. I can see a slight improvement to Atlantis but the CD-I going further than that will require controlling what resources the machine used.

Controlling the resources is basically how the scene works. Hence why i say that i do see a Wolfenstein 3D port being able to run considering similar platforms with a 68000 (Like Delsgolf, and that's arguably more advanced than Wolf3D)

Give or take the CD-I is very much a 4th generation system released in a time where 5th generation (PSX/Saturn/N64) came out.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

I am talking in a general sense, not a specific sense. You use comparison gifs, not technical documents or papers to back your arguments up.

Which you quoted a GIF of an unfinished game at an event. No technical documents needed. (also an argument I don't see you use for other graphical comparisons in threads you've participated in in the past, how odd.)

Quake 2 is far more out of the question because a standard Falcon (030 with DSP) is already skirting it for Quake (Amiga's basically need a good 060 to get some performance out of it, and a 060 is comparable to an entry level Pentium in integer performance. It is a lot slower in FPU performance which is what you need for Quake anyway. So a 030 doing Quake 2, even with cuts? Yes, still a highly optimized affair.

The thing about the Falcon is its flexible hardware and was designed as such learning from the other ST line computers. Unfortunately Atari pulled the computer early instead of trying to salvage it, which I think was a better bet than the Jaguar, which Atari eventually learned it never had the money to support or manufacture.

Controlling the resources is basically how the scene works. Hence why i say that i do see a Wolfenstein 3D port being able to run considering similar platforms with a 68000 (Like Delsgolf, and that's arguably more advanced than Wolf3D)

Give or take the CD-I is very much a 4th generation system released in a time where 5th generation (PSX/Saturn/N64) came out.

Huh?

The first CD-I's launched in 1991, based on a restrictive hardware from 1988 without any improvements, but it was released durng the 4th generation. It also had games then but they were the bare minimum or FMV heavy, which most of the time required the DVC.

The reason why CD-I as I said before got lumped in by some magazines and gamers who learned of it late, with the PS1,3DO, and Saturn, is because for the consumer models Phillips changed their strategy in 93 thinking that sales would increase if they marketed them as game machines especially in NA, earlier games showed promise and Phillips thought they saw an opportunity. They increased their game software library by leaps.

Ram Raid which you mentioned, had a similar goal as Dreamcast/Netlink, intended attract gamers to the novelty of online play before everyone else, and the device/modem connecting owners to the Net was also supposed to attract media enthusiasts, making them choose the CD-I's over computers for audio and web surfing, which was a trend many electronics companies were already doing, Sony WebTV being one, LG having their own and so on. But unlike Netlink the CD-I had a proper browser with no website limit.

The Consumer players still cost $400 until 1995 at the lowest, with the same outdated technology. The Professional players had additional hardware and up to 5MB of RAM (no split) which could have been useful for games but were made for business application and were expensive, if that cheap games console model couldn't get below $400 for two years than I doubt they could have ever got the price low enough for the better hardware.

In 1993, a $250 Jaguar with Trevormcfur compared to a $400 CD-I looked like Sonic the Hedgehog compared to Pong.

 

[Dev1lXYZ]

I would hope a finished game from 2001 would look better than an incomplete beta of a cancelled 1995 release by a small studio demoed at an event.



The waiting part, that was the problem, much of what Atari showed at their 1994 CES in preparation for a national release were in beta:



Many of these games wouldn't come out in months or over a year later than they should have, even Rayman can still do handstands. Some of the games not on the video didn't release at all.

They didn't have the money to have enough consoles ready, their developers didn't have games ready, a bad combination. They had plenty of time in 1993 to test the market witht he console and to make developer deals they should have been making since 1992, and they still were not ready.

My Jag came with a defective controller. I called Atari and they sent me one within a week. Even then, I could tell there was no real order going on, especially compared to Nintendo/Sega who I had contact with almost daily back then.

I really wanted to work for Nintendo when I grew up and had planned a move to either Redmond or Sacramento.....to work for Sega!

Neither happened. By the time I was of age, Sega had plummeted, and Nintendo 64 wasn't looking too hot either.....which dashed my plans.

Now, I answer phones for the government.

Funny how things turned out.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

My Jag came with a defective controller. I called Atari and they sent me one within a week. Even then, I could tell there was no real order going on, especially compared to Nintendo/Sega who I had contact with almost daily back then.

Jaguar Atari customer service was notorious so you got off easy. Something like that could take a month in many cases, assuming the rep didn't hang up on you because you got frustrated.

Nothing about the jaguar was finished but they had a year of time to get ahead, make me wonder what the heck they were doing during that year.

 

[Redneckerz]

Which you quoted a GIF of an unfinished game at an event. No technical documents needed

I am talking in a general sense

. (also an argument I don't see you use for other graphical comparisons in threads you've participated in in the past, how odd.)

Yes, please go look at my post history as if that means anything. Older posts and such, also a good rebuttal to the fact that you don't.

The thing about the Falcon is its flexible hardware and was designed as such learning from the other ST line computers. Unfortunately Atari pulled the computer early instead of trying to salvage it, which I think was a better bet than the Jaguar, which Atari eventually learned it never had the money to support or manufacture.

No argument to be found regarding Quake 2.

Huh?

Yes, my bad. 1991 isn't a 5th gen. Didn't it had re-releases? I am too lazy to check at this late evening moment.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Yes, please go look at my post history as if that means anything. Older posts and such, also a good rebuttal to the fact that you don't.

It's an indication of a bad faith argument while you are ignoring the descriptions with those gifs explaining what you are clearly seeing with your own eyes. It's also something you abruptly brought up when I showed a gif about a beta shown at an event in 1995, right after another person made a poor statement comparing that to a completed 2001 game.

No argument to be found regarding Quake 2.

No one was arguing about Quake 2 itself.

Yes, my bad. 1991 isn't a 5th gen. Didn't it had re-releases? I am too lazy to check at this late evening moment.

I mentioned re-releases in the post, the part you cut. Except it was all the same hardware so its debatable whether that counts.

 

[cartman414]

yeah but they couldn't make more consoles for Europe before that lawsuit came down for the NA stock. So even if that didn't happen how much more money would they have made from the small shipment of US consoles? They then would have to waste money on ads and marketing.

Enough for Commodore to remain afloat still?

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Enough for Commodore to remain afloat still?

To keep them alive? Commodore had to sell way more than that planned shipment. They actually did well with the 100k sold in in Europe and still went bust. People surely had to buy games and other items who brought CD32's increasing revenue, but apparently it wasn't enough. They actually had shortages in UK and some others iirc, like the Jaguar they didn't have the finances to increase supply at the factory, and I'm not buying that they didn't know that when they launched it, just like the Jaguar.

It's reported that Commodore needed 300,000-400,000 to keep afloat which isn't possible if you can't fulfill demand that low. The common number is 400k due to this article

https://arstechnica.netblogpro.com/...-the-amiga-part-10-the-downfall-of-commodore/

This was sadly not possible. Even if the patent issue in the US was resolved, the common Amiga fan theory that it's what killed Commodore doesn't hold very well when they can't even supply 200k to their strongest market. They were already negative and were barely limping along. Something like 200,000 consoles by Christmas would have bene easy for Commodore just a couple years back, even double that. But with the CD32 they only sold 100k in 7 months that means production had to be incredibly slow with numbers that low.

Thing is that's likely what the Jaguar needed to stay afloat too, or at least 500,000, I'm split on if Sam would have tired again or went third party in such a scenario though.

 

[cartman414]

It's impossible to even know when the supply was cut off after 100k though. Not having a $10 million suit would have done wonders at the very least though.

Of course having a couple of insufferably greedy suits running the company did no favors.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

It's impossible to even know when the supply was cut off after 100k though. Not having a $10 million suit would have done wonders at the very least though.

Of course having a couple of insufferably greedy suits running the company did no favors.

That 100k was announced after support was pulled. So that 100k had to have been made and shipped gradually across the 7 months it was in the market.

You are right about the suits though, from what I understand Commodore still had Amiga models selling and that comes with software, disc drives, and accessories, and Commodore already went to the banks before launching the CD32, they shouldn't have had a problem producing 200,000 consoles during that first Christmas.

Maybe some of the suits gave themselves getaway cars made of gold in the end. Wherever that money went, what was left wasn't enough which is a shame.

CD32 was actually selling well, and was a good idea and took the opposite approach of the CDTV, affordable and games only. they may have been a bit too cheap with the hardware though given the reliability issues.

 

[Redneckerz]

It's an indication of a bad faith argument while you are ignoring the descriptions with those gifs explaining what you are clearly seeing with your own eyes.

Its an indication of absolute certainty that you want to have an argument with anyone out here regardless of what does get presented.

It's also something you abruptly brought up when I showed a gif about a beta shown at an event in 1995, right after another person made a poor statement comparing that to a completed 2001 game.

And again, i am stating this in general sense and not about this specific game. Hope that's clear now.

No one was arguing about Quake 2 itself.

You were certain that Quake 2 was do-able on a Falcon 030. I told you why a straight port wouldn't work.

I mentioned re-releases in the post, the part you cut. Except it was all the same hardware so its debatable whether that counts.

Well, that's on me. It was a long day at work when i wrote the post.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Its an indication of absolute certainty that you want to have an argument with anyone out here regardless of what does get presented.

Let me know when someone presents something other than me.

And again, i am stating this in general sense and not about this specific game. Hope that's clear now.

Sometimes move backwards to create clarity.

You were certain that Quake 2 was do-able on a Falcon 030. I told you why a straight port wouldn't work.

I never said this, that's what YOU implicated

I wouldn't believe an Atari Falcon could run Quake 2 esque levels, but here we are:



Thats a 030 with DSP.

This is your original post, all i said was I didn't find it surprising as you did, because the Falcon unlike other contemporaries was more flexible hardware and could already play the original Quake so Quake 2 stuff with compromises didn't seem out of bounds, at some point you changed things around to say I was arguing that Falcon could do a straight port of Quake 2 which i never said.

 

[Redneckerz]

Let me know when someone presents something other than me.

I think you find in this thread that you scare most people away. Not by using logic, but by subtle and not so subtle insults and condescending remarks. You want to remind people that its you who knows the definitive answers, anyone presenting contention gets given the hoot.

Its boring because i enjoy the core concept of your thread.

Sometimes move backwards to create clarity.

I suppose.

I never said this, that's what YOU implicated

You don't have to literally say things to know what you are hinting against.

This is your original post, all i said was I didn't find it surprising as you did, because the Falcon unlike other contemporaries was more flexible hardware and could already play the original Quake

With what? I told you it needs a 060 to run somewhat decent. A Falcon is a 030 with DSP. So any Quake 2 content would rather be a custom solution, which is seen here. The DSP is abused heavily, and writing DSP code is compartively difficult for the Falcy.

so Quake 2 stuff with compromises didn't seem out of bounds, at some point you changed things around to say I was arguing that Falcon could do a straight port of Quake 2 which i never said.

Not literally, nope.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

I think you find in this thread that you scare most people away. Not by using logic,

The only people scarring anyone from this thread are posts like yours who come in with nothing and than dismiss and won't address the only person who actually provided something, the reactions already show this since the people giving positive reactions aren't posting and aren't giving you or the others any. Some posted in other threads seeing the same pattern and pointed out how several of arguments aren't even arguments, or are based on emotions or anecdotes that ignore the content posted as if it doesn't exist. The opposite of logical.

It would be great if you had something more substantive to say then "I don't like your gifs I'm bored" so there can be further discussion into the console differences, but you clearly don't want a discussion, you just want to dismiss what was presented while giving nothing yourself trying to have it both ways, and you aren't the only one doing that. Using an excuse you never used before to justify avoiding a conversation based on the games mentioned, and then using condescending remarks yourself while acting as if you aren't contributing to the problem.

With what? I told you it needs a 060 to run somewhat decent.

You are the one who said the Falcon could run Quake 2 esque levels

I wouldn't believe an Atari Falcon could run Quake 2 esque levels, but here we are:

This is twice you tried to reverse your own argument to me. You ask "with what" but I'm not the one who brought the subject up. You gave clear implication based on the video you posted that Quake 2 esque stuff on the Falcon were impressive, the context was about hardware restrictions as can be seen here as well

I don't necessarily believe in too restrictive limitations. See Falcon Quake 2 esque engine and Dread.

Two posts were made by you clearly showing you were impressed with the Quake 2 assets on the Falcon and wanted to use that example that you don't believe much in hardware restrictions. I responded by saying that the Falcon unlike its contemporaries was more flexible with its hardware, and that since it could run Quake it's not surprising (to me) it can handle those assets.

Explain to me how the conversation changed from you being impressed by what the Falcon can do, to accusing me of saying the Falcon can do a straight port of Quake 2?

 

[Redneckerz]

The only people scarring anyone from this thread are posts like yours who come in with nothing and than dismiss and won't address the only person who actually provided something, the reactions already show this since the people giving positive reactions aren't posting and aren't giving you or the others any.

If that's what you need to convince yourself go ahead.

It would be great if you had something more substantive to say then "I don't like your gifs I'm bored" so there can be further discussion into the console differences, but you clearly don't want a discussion, you just want to dismiss what was presented while giving nothing yourself trying to have it both ways, and you aren't the only one doing that.

I did, once, and you ignored that. If we were really going to do things, i would link to Sega Retro and list the technical papers from its GPU and so forth.

But i have a funny feeling this will get a witty remark as has been apparent in this thread.

Using an excuse you never used before to justify avoiding a conversation based on the games mentioned, and then using condescending remarks yourself while acting as if you aren't contributing to the problem.

May it have something to do with the way you post? Before i went in the thread, you were already throwing remarks left right and centre, almost as if that's your posting style and thinking that succeeds you in being a respectable poster.

You are the one who said the Falcon could run Quake 2 esque levels

Oh good, so you are ignoring the context. Gotcha.

This is twice you tried to reverse your own argument to me. You ask "with what" but I'm not the one who brought the subject up. You gave clear implication based on the video you posted that Quake 2 esque stuff on the Falcon were impressive, the context was about hardware restrictions as can be seen here as well

You said first that the Falcon can play Quake. I say with what.
Then you say Quake 2 stuff with compromises doesn't seem out of bounds, and yet that is exactly what it is, especially when its on a stock Falcon nontheless.

Two posts were made by you clearly showing you were impressed with the Quake 2 assets on the Falcon and wanted to use that example that you don't believe much in hardware restrictions. I responded by saying that the Falcon unlike its contemporaries was more flexible with its hardware,

Its a 030 with DSP. The DSP is programmable. The flexibility is in accelerator boards, which you will need anyway if you want to run Quake decently.

and that since it could run Quake it's not surprising (to me) it can handle those assets.

Again, based on what?

• A stock Falcon 030 with DSP?
• A SuperVIDEL board?
• A CT60/CT63 accelerator?

You tell me. All you say is it could run. A CD-I could run Doom.*, and then ill just obmit saying it needs an accelerator card to do it. But it could.

Explain to me how the conversation changed from you being impressed by what the Falcon can do, to accusing me of saying the Falcon can do a straight port of Quake 2?

I am more impressed that you aren't impressed that the Falcon is doing something rather impressive.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Copy mistake

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

You said first that the Falcon can play Quake. I say with what.

Never happened, you are removing the context dishonestly. Multiple times in one post creating something completely different from what actually happened.

The two quotes I posted from you were near the beginning of the thread. The first one was from the FIRST post in this thread where the Falcon was ever mentioned, and it was form you

I wouldn't believe an Atari Falcon could run Quake 2 esque levels, but here we are:



Thats a 030 with DSP.

My response

You're ignoring the limitations involved with the rest of the hardware and focusing on one processor alone as if imagining that it's surrounded by hardware that gives you flexibility in the dev environment when the CD-I is restricted.

You're response

I don't necessarily believe in too restrictive limitations. See Falcon Quake 2 esque engine and Dread.

My response

Dread is a compromised Doom for the earlier ST line, Falcon can run it easily, and Quake, so Quake 2 with cuts isn't out of the question.

Your response

Quake 2 is far more out of the question because a standard Falcon (030 with DSP) is already skirting it for Quake (Amiga's basically need a good 060 to get some performance out of it, and a 060 is comparable to an entry level Pentium in integer performance.

As you can see the context of the conversation is clear. You clearly thought you could change the argument subtly but there's a reason why my next response didn't even mention Quake 2, i wasn't sure what you were going for with the last quote, so I only brought up that the Falcon being pulled early instead of being salvaged was a shame on Atari's part.

The thing about the Falcon is its flexible hardware and was designed as such learning from the other ST line computers. Unfortunately Atari pulled the computer early instead of trying to salvage it, which I think was a better bet than the Jaguar, which Atari eventually learned it never had the money to support or manufacture.

Now it's clear what you are trying to do, you are trying to take quotes out of context so you can falsely accuse me of saying that Falcon can handle a "straight port" of Quake 2 which I never said.

The conversation was about the CD-I and how restrictive it's hardware was for games, you brought up Quake 2 on the Falcon out of nowhere to show that's not the case as an example of what impressive things it's hardware could do, and I responded that the Falcon unlike the CD-I was more flexible, you then responded with Falcon Quake 2 a second time (and dread) with me responding that to ME, it wasn't that impressive because the hardware is more flexible and since it could handle Quake it wasn't a surprise that it could handle Quake 2.

The context being the Quake 2 assets that you brought up in the first place. Everything else you claimed i said does not exist and wasn't ever posted from saying Falcon could run a "straight port" and more.

So there's no argument to be had here, because there never was one to begin with, unless you're going to argue that the CD-I is less restrictive than the Falcon. The CD-I being a machine from 1988 that was never intended for anything beyond basic interactivity regarding games.

 

[SpiceRacz]

Never happened, you are removing the context dishonestly. Multiple times in one post creating something completely different from what actually happened.

The two quotes I posted from you were near the beginning of the thread. The first one was from the FIRST post in this thread where the Falcon was ever mentioned, and it was form you



My response


You're response



My response



Your response




As you can see the context of the conversation is clear. You clearly thought you could change the argument subtly but there's a reason why my next response didn't even mention Quake 2, i wasn't sure what you were going for with the last quote, so I only brought up that the Falcon being pulled early instead of being salvaged was a shame on Atari's part.




Now it's clear what you are trying to do, you are trying to take quotes out of context so you can falsely accuse me of saying that Falcon can handle a "straight port" of Quake 2 which I never said.

The conversation was about the CD-I and how restrictive it's hardware was for games, you brought up Quake 2 on the Falcon out of nowhere to show that's not the case as an example of what impressive things it's hardware could do, and I responded that the Falcon unlike the CD-I was more flexible, you then responded with Falcon Quake 2 a second time (and dread) with me responding that to ME, it wasn't that impressive because the hardware is more flexible and since it could handle Quake it wasn't a surprise that it could handle Quake 2.

The context being the Quake 2 assets that you brought up in the first place. Everything else you claimed i said does not exist and wasn't ever posted from saying Falcon could run a "straight port" and more.

So there's no argument to be had here, because there never was one to begin with, unless you're going to argue that the CD-I is less restrictive than the Falcon. The CD-I being a machine from 1988 that was never intended for anything beyond basic interactivity regarding games.

 

[Redneckerz]

Never happened, you are removing the context dishonestly. Multiple times in one post creating something completely different from what actually happened.

The two quotes I posted from you were near the beginning of the thread. The first one was from the FIRST post in this thread where the Falcon was ever mentioned, and it was form you



My response


You're response



My response



Your response

Quite clearly you are saying it could run Quake. That's why my response was one of doubt, because a 030 with DSP can't really run Quake and pointed out why.

Now it's clear what you are trying to do, you are trying to take quotes out of context so you can falsely accuse me of saying that Falcon can handle a "straight port" of Quake 2 which I never said.

Alright, you never said that. I am still pointing about the above.

The conversation was about the CD-I and how restrictive it's hardware was for games, you brought up Quake 2 on the Falcon out of nowhere to show that's not the case as an example of what impressive things it's hardware could do, and I responded that the Falcon unlike the CD-I was more flexible, you then responded with Falcon Quake 2 a second time (and dread) with me responding that to ME, it wasn't that impressive because the hardware is more flexible and since it could handle Quake it wasn't a surprise that it could handle Quake 2.

You keep saying its more flexible and it could run Quake but you aren't saying with which hardware. So therefore i assume you mean a stock Falcon and that's just untrue.

So there's no argument to be had here, because there never was one to begin with, unless you're going to argue that the CD-I is less restrictive than the Falcon. The CD-I being a machine from 1988 that was never intended for anything beyond basic interactivity regarding games.

Wasn't on my mind, but clearly it was on yours.

God forbid i would actually engage the thread with dedicated resources. Tried it once, dealt with it twice, and now am here thrice.

Either way, ill be joining cireza here and just await the next thread.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Alright, you never said that. I am still pointing about the above.

You keep saying its more flexible and it could run Quake

Not I didn't the context is in the previous post in chronological order, you are clearly manufacturing an argument.

I don't understand why you are being misleading with your posts on purpose, what does that gain you? Here are the posts in chronological order again

I wouldn't believe an Atari Falcon could run Quake 2 esque levels, but here we are:



Thats a 030 with DSP.

My response

You're ignoring the limitations involved with the rest of the hardware and focusing on one processor alone as if imagining that it's surrounded by hardware that gives you flexibility in the dev environment when the CD-I is restricted.

You're response

I don't necessarily believe in too restrictive limitations. See Falcon Quake 2 esque engine and Dread.

My response

Dread is a compromised Doom for the earlier ST line, Falcon can run it easily, and Quake, so Quake 2 with cuts isn't out of the question.

Your response

Quake 2 is far more out of the question because a standard Falcon (030 with DSP) is already skirting it for Quake (Amiga's basically need a good 060 to get some performance out of it, and a 060 is comparable to an entry level Pentium in integer performance.

Let's be perfectly frank here, you know I didn't say Falcon could run a "straight port" of Quake 2 and knew what I was referencing (you) in my posts above, you just took the last post I made in this quote-tree and twisted it so you can make up this argument.

Since I didn't create this argument, there's no need for us to continue going back and forth about the Falcon.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

lol, guys just chill out. The Jag is a quirky and weird machine but for those that are open to some fun there is plenty to have: Tempest 2000, Defender 2000, Silent Doom, Super Burnout, Zool 2, Rayman, Dino Dudes, Cannon Fodder (one of the best versions), Wolfenstein 3D, AVP, Attack of the Mutant Penguins, Ultra Vortek, Breakout 2000, Missile Command 3D, Raiden, Skyhammer, Escape 2042, …., Rebooteroids, Kobayashi Maru, Gravity Mines, …, etc etc

I missed the Silent Doom quip.

It's a shame that people won't play that version just because of the lack of music, back then you didn't have a choice since it was the best version, but nowadays most go back to the PS version because of the music, at least for those who replay the console versions for nostalgia, otherwise I don't see why anyone wouldn't just play the PC version.

Jaguar was the best FPS console until the N64, at least for sprite based FPS games, Wolf3D, Doom, AvP, and one other.

 

[Redneckerz]

Not I didn't the context is in the previous post in chronological order, you are clearly manufacturing an argument.

No, i am singling out a specific statement and you are ignoring its existenc.

Let's be perfectly frank here, you know I didn't say Falcon could run a "straight port" of Quake 2 and knew what I was referencing (you) in my posts above, you just took the last post I made in this quote-tree and twisted it so you can make up this argument.

I already said this, but yes, you didn't literally say that there is a straight port of Quake 2. Lets move away from that now.

You are still saying that a Falcon could run Quake.

 

[dcx4610]

My first console was the 2600 when I was super young so I got excited when the Jaguar came out and ended up asking for it for one of my birthdays. I really thought it had a *chance* to compete with Nintendo and Sega and was rooting for them. The hardware seemed impressive and I finally got to play Wolf 3D and DOOM (not having a PC at the time) after hearing about them in magazines. They were awesome and it seemed like the potential was there. I even liked Kasumi Ninja for what it was. Then...nothing.

It's a shame because the system was powerful and like all consoles, simply needed developers and games. I gave up on it after only a year and just stuck with Nintendo until moving on with PC gaming.

The controller gets a lot of crap but I thought it was fairly comfortable and forward thinking. Yes, it looks like an old cordless phone with the buttons but the idea was that you put overlays on the controller and it basically turns it into a keyboard or gives you an incredible amount of options. For instance, you slap this on while playing DOOM and you have instant access to all of your weapons.

Sure it's not needed for every game and the controller does look like silly if you don't have overlays but otherwise, kinda brilliant.

 

[Panajev2001a]

My first console was the 2600 when I was super young so I got excited when the Jaguar came out and ended up asking for it for one of my birthdays. I really thought it had a *chance* to compete with Nintendo and Sega and was rooting for them. The hardware seemed impressive and I finally got to play Wolf 3D and DOOM (not having a PC at the time) after hearing about them in magazines. They were awesome and it seemed like the potential was there. I even liked Kasumi Ninja for what it was. Then...nothing.

It's a shame because the system was powerful and like all consoles, simply needed developers and games. I gave up on it after only a year and just stuck with Nintendo until moving on with PC gaming.

The controller gets a lot of crap but I thought it was fairly comfortable and forward thinking. Yes, it looks like an old cordless phone with the buttons but the idea was that you put overlays on the controller and it basically turns it into a keyboard or gives you an incredible amount of options. For instance, you slap this on while playing DOOM and you have instant access to all of your weapons.

Sure it's not needed for every game and the controller does look like silly if you don't have overlays but otherwise, kinda brilliant.

If Atari had a bit more money to support fixing some HW bugs before they finalised the HW and then to produce enough models, it might have had a better chance.

 

[Shifty]

Just checking in to see if this thread still hurts to read.

Sure does, carry on then.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

Jaguar was never going to get the support it needed regardless. Atari just didn't have the oomph to make it work. 3D is what the people wanted. Nobody wanted a 2D machine after PS1.

It was worth it to me just for Tempest 2000.

The Jaguar came out before the PS1 though