Support NeoGAF

[Slayven]

I want Nicolas Winding Refn to make a Silent Hill film.

No McG

 

[LionPride]

Like, fur being a character study about a woman with depression, needing an ovary removed, social anxiety, and other issues

Movie is really good and somewhat funny

 

[Dai101]

Christine is a really good movie

I would drive Christine

Mah boys!


Show Me ...

 

[Johndoey]

No McG

Don't even joke about that.

 

[FeenixRising]

Y'all not allowed to drink water? But I thought the body can go without water for only a week.

It's only from sunrise until sunset

But still, I couldn't do it especially with these long ass days.

 

[Sch1sm]

should i change my name so as to not tempt others during this holy month

Ain't shit tempting about being a teacher of beef. <3

Y'all not allowed to drink water? But I thought the body can go without water for only a week.

What Feenix said. Only while fasting. We can drink freely. In Numb's case, that's a shorter period since he's so North. In mine, I got from 9PM to 4AM ish to eat, drink, and be happy.

 

[sooperkool]

No McG

Don't even joke about that.

McG would be lucky to get any job these days, his filmography has been trash for almost a decade.

 

[Slayven]

Don't even joke about that.

McG would be lucky to get any job these days, his filmography has been trash for almost a decade.

McG was that dude in the 90s, wasn't no project too shitty for him to take on. He was the director version of Sam Jackson

 

[Malyse]

Nintendo needs idea men like me.

I mean, I support Disney buying Nintendo for a variety of reasons, so more people like you making decisions would definitely put the company in a position of needing to sell.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

Y'all not allowed to drink water? But I thought the body can go without water for only a week.

I think they can get it in after sundown.

 

[Izuna]

I fasted because I'm broke. howbow dah

 

[Shy]

McG would be lucky to get any job these days, his filmography has been trash for almost a decade.

He's always been shit.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Edge of Seventeen was petty good..that girl crazy tho.

 

[Crocodile]

.

This gives me life energy <3

Wish these dudes would stop making these complaint videos about choices Japanese designers make for Japanese characters.

There's so much more at home to look at, where some affect can take place.

Eh I mean if you're going to sell your game on the world stage, you going to be judged by standards outside your culture. Just the way of the world *shrug*. I'm sure your average Japanese developer is a big enough boy/girl to handle it.

 

[Izuna]

Eh I mean if you're going to sell your game on the world stage, you going to be judged by standards outside your culture. Just the way of the world *shrug*. I'm sure your average Japanese developer is a big enough boy/girl to handle it.

What I'm really saying, is that some things that are part of (dare I say) Japanese subculture are mistaken as being offensive. America is, understandably more sensitive to stuff like evil versions of characters having darker skin, but there's pretty much nothing rando Youtube dude is doing to make a completely different country change how they see things.

Again, direct efforts to something that actually matters and can actually be changed with any realistic scope.

All this does is fuel the anti-SJW crowd in thinking that people complain about pointless stuff.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

Edge of Seventeen was petty good..that girl crazy tho.

Eh I only made it through 1/3rs of it. Her acting was good you couldn't tell she's

Spoiler

1/3rd black Filipino

These black girls are invading

 

[Crocodile]

What I'm really saying, is that some things that are part of (dare I say) Japanese subculture are mistaken as being offensive. America is, understandably more sensitive to stuff like evil versions of characters having darker skin, but there's pretty much nothing rando Youtube dude is doing to make a completely different country change how they see things.

Again, direct efforts to something that actually matters and can actually be changed with any realistic scope.

All this does is fuel the anti-SJW crowd in thinking that people complain about pointless stuff.

A) When companies export their wares to other cultures, they've always had to be aware of how other cultures would react. That's just natural. If the Japanese video game market is collapsing and they want to sell more stuff to Westerners they need to keep their eyes and ears open to Western preferences. They ARE listening more than they ever had in the past. I'd still expect and want them to be Japanese-as-fuck but you can make games that are Japanese-as-fuck and still (as one example) include say non-racist depictions of Black people. It's not like there aren't already Japanese products that do that - why should others get a pass?

B) I've said it before and I'll say it again - I can think something is dumb/silly/stupid/problematic without being "offended". Why/when did criticism become synonymous with "being offended"?

C) Do you honestly think the "anti-SJW" crowd need "reason" or "logic" to get their underwear in a bunch? Fuck them and fuck what they think - I don't live my life for them.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Si..si..

 

[NipplesAndToes23]

TELL EM CROC!

 

[Izuna]

A) When companies export their wares to other cultures, they've always had to be aware of how other cultures would react. That's just natural. If the Japanese video game market is collapsing and they want to sell more stuff to Westerners they need to keep their eyes and ears open to Western preferences. They ARE listening more than they ever had in the past. I'd still expect and want them to be Japanese-as-fuck but you can make games that are Japanese-as-fuck and still (as one example) include say non-racist depictions of Black people. It's not like there aren't already Japanese products that do that - why should others get a pass?

B) I've said it before and I'll say it again - I can think something is dumb/silly/stupid/problematic without being "offended". Why/when did criticism become synonymous with "being offended"?

C) Do you honestly think the "anti-SJW" crowd need "reason" or "logic" to get their underwear in a bunch? Fuck them and fuck what they think - I don't live my life for them.

I'm not talking about Japanese depictions of black people. I'm talking about that "dark skin for evil" thread ~~ where the darker skin is used to signify strength, feral-like behaviour or otherwise being possessed.

Looking at this with Western eyes and asking for a change is arrogant when there's the option of understanding their reason for it.

There was a post in there that was spot on from an artist, and they're okay with it because they understand it. In no way was the darker shade ever meant to say dark skin people are evil.

And then there's another point made about how many Japanese products, including video games, don't even get exported to the West. Which of course is problematic for other reasons *cough export country cough*.

Like shit, I detest modern anime but it seems massively arrogant to see everything as if it needs to cater to American views.

There are times where it's warranted, but this is not one of them.

 

[FeenixRising]

No idea what's going on but slides in this thread anyway

 

[akira28]

No idea what's going on but slides in this thread anyway

it looks like they all just immediately stop as soon as he slides in

 

[D i Z]

I'm not talking about Japanese depictions of black people. I'm talking about that "dark skin for evil" thread ~~ where the darker skin is used to signify strength, feral-like behaviour or otherwise being possessed.

Looking at this with Western eyes and asking for a change is arrogant when there's the option of understanding their reason for it.

There was a post in there that was spot on from an artist, and they're okay with it because they understand it. In no way was the darker shade ever meant to say dark skin people are evil.

And then there's another point made about how many Japanese products, including video games, don't even get exported to the West. Which of course is problematic for other reasons *cough export country cough*.

Like shit, I detest modern anime but it seems massively arrogant to see everything as if it needs to cater to American views.

There are times where it's warranted, but this is not one of them.

Highlighting it. Not going to touch this one. Weeaboo yourself out of this if you can.

 

[Izuna]

Highlighting it. Not going to touch this one. Weeaboo yourself out of this if you can.

I personally think it's ridiculous and counter-productive to be on this "it looks bad, therefore it is".

I've been understanding of why things is massively different in US, but equally so, that should go both ways.

And I am certainly not claiming to know a lot. Outside of the extremely obvious light vs. dark theme that exists in many cultures.

 

[FeenixRising]

*throws gif in reverse and leaves thread*

 

[D i Z]

I personally think it's ridiculous and counter-productive to be on this "it looks bad, therefore it is".

I've been understanding of why things is massively different in US, but equally so, that should go both ways.

And I am certainly not claiming to know a lot. Outside of the extremely obvious light vs. dark theme that exists in many cultures.

It strikes me as odd that you keep saying "the US" as if you're talking to/ and about people all US born and based. It's like you can't see people and motivations outside of nationality boxes that suit your worldview.

 

[Slayven]

Edge of Seventeen was petty good..that girl crazy tho.

Fuck Juno, i hate everyone but the dad in that movie

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Fuck Juno, i hate everyone but the dad in that movie

Fucking HATE that shitty movie..and agreed.

 

[Htown]

There was a post in there that was spot on from an artist, and they're okay with it because they understand it. In no way was the darker shade ever meant to say dark skin people are evil.

What it's meant to do and the effect it has aren't always the same thing, though.

 

[Izuna]

It strikes me as odd that you keep saying "the US" as if you're talking to/ and about people all US based.

I am, because that's the context of that thread in Gaming.

Folklore has Demons with darker shades in Edo (around) woodblock prints. It makes far little sense to ignore this and instead expect Japanese artists to not have the obvious go to for an evil version of a character to be a darker version.

 

[D i Z]

Juno was trash.

I am, because that's the context of that thread in Gaming.

Folklore has Demons with darker shades in Edo (around) woodblock prints. It makes far little sense to ignore this and instead expect Japanese artists to not have the obvious go to for an evil version of a character to be a darker version.

But you are willingly ignoring the reality of the real history in favor of the mythology of what this means in Japan?


Alright my dude.

 

[Izuna]

It's like you can't see people and motivations outside of nationality boxes that suit your worldview.

?? I literally can't understand what you're saying.

~~

Juno was a great, fun movie

But it was a terrible message in comparison to say, Mom at 16

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Juno was trash.

Now I wonder if John loves it..

 

[Crocodile]

I'm not talking about Japanese depictions of black people. I'm talking about that "dark skin for evil" thread ~~ where the darker skin is used to signify strength, feral-like behaviour or otherwise being possessed.

Looking at this with Western eyes and asking for a change is arrogant when there's the option of understanding their reason for it.

There was a post in there that was spot on from an artist, and they're okay with it because they understand it. In no way was the darker shade ever meant to say dark skin people are evil.

And then there's another point made about how many Japanese products, including video games, don't even get exported to the West. Which of course is problematic for other reasons *cough export country cough*.

Like shit, I detest modern anime but it seems massively arrogant to see everything as if it needs to cater to American views.

There are times where it's warranted, but this is not one of them.

I know you are talking about that "Dark Skin is Evil" thread (lord knows why tonight is a night I chose to post in a race thread on Gaming Side LOL fuck me). I still don't see what is "arrogant" about judging products from foreign countries through my lens. To use an EXTREME example, if someone from an outside culture was still cool with human sacrifice and they decided to export that practice, would you sit there and say "oh you can't criticize that, its their culture"? Of course not. Like I said in the other thread, when you are exporting products to foreign languages, you have to be aware of the culture of that land. There is a reason the McDonalds in Calcutta don't sell beef (or at least that' what I've heard maybe I'm wrong) or skeletons get censored in media exported to China. You don't think the Japanese judge and interpret media they consume from America through their own cultural lens? If Japan wants to sell to the international market (and they have to since the Japanese console market is shrinking), they have to be aware of things that would be off-putting to foreigners or do things that would appeal to to foreigners. Thankfully, you can still make games that are Japanese-as-Fuck and avoid diet or explicit racism/sexism/homophobia/transphobia/etc.

Also lets be clear we are talking about humans and human skin tones here. "Random demon X" or inhuman skin tones seem irrelevant here?

 

[Izuna]

What it's meant to do and the effect it has aren't always the same thing, though.

But here's the thing, the effect it has (if that's being offended and/or contribute to stereotypes), there is very little to be done about that. Kicking up a fuss as a minority to devs who aren't even listening has pretty much no realistic end goal.

It's best to see no ill intent, and instead, fight the fights that actually can be won ~~ those that have more pressing issues then a subliminal "dark = bad". Which is pretty much impossible to fight culturally.

 

[Izuna]

I know you are talking about that "Dark Skin is Evil" thread (lord knows why tonight is a night I chose to post in a race thread on Gaming Side LOL fuck me). I still don't see what is "arrogant" about judging products from foreign countries through my lens. To use an EXTREME example, if someone from an outside culture was still cool with human sacrifice and they decided to export that practice, would you sit there and say "oh you can't criticize that, its their culture"? Of course not. Like I said in the other thread, when you are exporting products to foreign languages, you have to be aware of the culture of that land. There is a reason the McDonalds in Calcutta don't sell beef (or at least that' what I've heard maybe I'm wrong) or skeletons get censored in media exported to China. You don't think the Japanese judge and interpret media they consume from America through their own cultural lens? If Japan wants to sell to the international market (and they have to since the Japanese console market is shrinking), they have to be aware of things that would be off-putting to foreigners or do things that would appeal to to foreigners. Thankfully, you can still make games that are Japanese-as-Fuck and avoid diet or explicit racism/sexism/homophobia/transphobia/etc.

Also lets be clear we are talking about humans and human skin tones here. "Random demon X" or inhuman skin tones seem irrelevant here?

I am in no way disregarding the effect it has, I'm more highlighting how there's practically zero ill intent and that it's not a fight worth having at all.

And the earlier comment about the anti-SJW crowd getting fucked... These are the very people you have to convince, so it's probably best to at least stick to less-extreme examples.

 

[D i Z]

?? I literally can't understand what you're saying.

This viewpoint that you have issue with is not US exclusive. Black people are all around the world. I'm sure your test results where supposed to make that clear.

But here's the thing, the effect it has (if that's being offended and/or contribute to stereotypes), there is very little to be done about that. Kicking up a fuss as a minority to devs who aren't even listening has pretty much no realistic end goal.

It's best to see no ill intent, and instead, fight the fights that actually can be won ~~ those that have more pressing issues then a subliminal "dark = bad". Which is pretty much impossible to fight culturally.

Yeah, I'll exit now because there is no reason to be gained here.

 

[Slayven]

Fucking HATE that shitty movie..and agreed.

Never knew why taht movie got so much praise. That an all these coming of age indie type movies.

 

[Izuna]

This viewpoint that you have issue with is not US exclusive. Black people are all around the world. I'm sure your test results where supposed to make that clear.

Hmm that's strange

I thought black people weren't a monolith

I don't think my personal views matter at all, because I rarely (extremely rarely) face open discrimination due to my skin colour (amplified by the fact that I'm in the UK with a white accent*). But just talking about topics on this site only, the fuckery in that Splatoon thread is something to complain about. Evil Ryu being darker skin? That just makes it easy for people to dismiss those issues.

 

[TheGreatDirector]

Berserk is looking good.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Never knew why taht movie got so much praise. That an all these coming of age indie type movies.

Sitting through that shit made me angry as all hell..and made me dislike a friend I knew who even sounds just like the her lol.

 

[akira28]

Berserk is looking good.

they literally walked the cel out of the frame, no animations or nothing.

 

[D i Z]

Hmm that's strange

I thought black people weren't a monolith

I..... kind of just said that????

Still torn, I see.

 

[Crocodile]

I am in no way disregarding the effect it has, I'm more highlighting how there's practically zero ill intent and that it's not a fight worth having at all.

And the earlier comment about the anti-SJW crowd getting fucked... These are the very people you have to convince, so it's probably best to at least stick to less-extreme examples.

A) ________ as a function of ignorance instead of malice is still worth discussing. It always has been. If your argument is "they aren't listening" (which so obviously isn't true I don't know why you are even saying it) then why talk about issues with level design or controls or anything else you could criticize a game for? That also doesn't change the fact that its worth discussing for our own sake - its not like Japanese games haven't influenced Western games and vice versa. When Anita included Japanese games in her videos I doubt she was doing it primarily so Japanese developers could hear her.

B) As for "anti-SJW", why do I have to convince them of anything? I don't need their votes or their money. What do I need from them? What do I need from this loud, whiny minority? To be clear I don't really give two shits about Evil Ryu or Violent Ken. It's whatever to me. That doesn't change the fact they are still both part of a a larger, problematic trend. It's not like they went the Akuma > Oni route.

 

[Htown]

But here's the thing, the effect it has (if that's being offended and/or contribute to stereotypes), there is very little to be done about that. Kicking up a fuss as a minority to devs who aren't even listening has pretty much no realistic end goal.

It's best to see no ill intent, and instead, fight the fights that actually can be won ~~ those that have more pressing issues then a subliminal "dark = bad". Which is pretty much impossible to fight culturally.

I guess I don't understand why Japanese devs can pull inspiration from outside cultures when they want, but when it's about issues involving positive or negative representation, we have to pretend they're some isolated little island where nobody could possibly know or hear better.

They can pull in everything from esoteric Judeo-Christian imagery to the Terminator movies, but when it comes to this stuff there's literally no way they could possibly EVER know? Nah, I don't think I buy it.

 

[Akainu]

I love when neogaf becomes youtube-lite when a race thread on gaming side shows up.

 

[Izuna]

I..... kind of just said that????

Still torn, I see.

I read what you said as the opposite.

 

[Slayven]

Berserk is looking good.

Damn, reminds me of original He-man

Sitting through that shit made me angry as all hell..and made me dislike a friend I knew who even sounds just like the her lol.

Lol damn, but Juno was an ass, and never was redeemed

I guess I don't understand why Japanese devs can pull inspiration from outside cultures when they want, but when it's about issues involving positive or negative representation, we have to pretend they're some isolated little island where nobody could possibly know or hear better.

They can pull in everything from esoteric Judeo-Christian imagery to the Terminator movies, but when it comes to this stuff there's literally no way they could possibly EVER know? Nah, I don't think I buy it.

That is funny, they can be so indepth and pick up the most obscure things. When they want to.

 

[akira28]

Evil Ryu being darker skin? That just makes it easy for people to dismiss those issues.

after a while these things start adding up. I don't see a problem with communicating an issue with someone's artform. Not even telling them to change it, just saying "yo, this is what it looks like to me." that's not arrogance. Even expecting someone to be able to understand and maybe even empathize isn't arrogance. Expecting these things to be already cut from whole cloth, molded to your experiences without having to lift a finger or say a word is arrogant though. Luckily no one here is like that.


edit: re that Berserk gif, his entire upper body is made of immobile stone.