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[Izuna]

I guess I don't understand why Japanese devs can pull inspiration from outside cultures when they want, but when it's about issues involving positive or negative representation, we have to pretend they're some isolated little island where nobody could possibly know or hear better.

They can pull in everything from esoteric Judeo-Christian imagery to the Terminator movies, but when it comes to this stuff there's literally no way they could possibly EVER know? Nah, I don't think I buy it.

I mean, look at the examples in that through though. Evil Ryu, Violent Ken (no doubt a drawing from SNK artists initially, who looks almost exactly like K').

It's just like Ganguro btw, there the dark skin belong to the old hag and it's supposed to be the opposite of beauty norms.

When the artist draw this within Japan they aren't thinking of offending Western people until... they do. Then after they feel like it's hard to draw inspirations from their own cultural background because the country is basically dependent on selling to the West/US.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

No idea what's going on but slides in this thread anyway

https://68.media.tumblr.com/78c7f5ec7db62a99d319d1f1e35f2dee/tumblr_mzxkecNqs91svt5w5o1_400.gif[/IMG[/QUOTE]

Ugh, zee

I got wakin haze, my customers hoes sleep with me
we have small beef, i still sell em o's for three fifty
they known when big beef, i'll pop 100 times
they like road kill, i live niggas brains on 189
and my down bitches, they be ready to kill
i be like chill, they be like "thats my nigga fo real"

Thats my nigga fo real X3

I don't give a fuck if we dont sell a record


we still gunna get this money in the bricks
spill it zee

I'm like santa clause, i deliver niggas grams raw
straight from panama, they eat it up like hannibal
and my dons, they appear like magic wands
i sell em to the crack of dawn, and destroy every track im on
plus i have a clan packed in the back of vans
more raw than the taliban, murk you for a half a gram
i get bboy a truck, yo truck in the river
fuck some doe, he be like "thats my nigga fo real"

Thats my nigga fo real X3

Scarecrow what, im trying to walk before i crawl
I want it all, ever since i came outta my mommas walls
im trying to make so much doe when i write a song
i can vite em all, while ya'll click on the corner selling final calls


niggas mad at us, gladiators like maximus
we fabolous, while you fall off like canabis's managers
my man d, you keep the nina pillin
zee, point a mine and watch em soak em like sarina williams

Thats my nigga fo real X3

Zee need buddha, E user
Be freelookers spittin from our pt cruisers
my tank dont drop, i still got doe to make
got little niggas on rollerskates, holdin my coke and weight
blow paper, hole chaser, doe raiser, joe frasier
16 cellys and 4 pagers
go hype up your squad that they might fuck with ours
i just light up cigars, go buy bikes, trucks and cars
got axe n nitty in atlanta deep
ran the street, 10 grand a week
i got one word, dont put ya man to sleep


and i love my jersey live bitches
they leave a nigga, face with 35 stitches
they'll help me, cinder blocks and pushin kids so deep in the oceans
they see where octopusses live
this label deal is for raws pacin chill
i know mad heads, but still

Thats my nigga fo real

 

[kyored]

Who's on that tekken 7 ?

 

[Prototype Viktor]

i'm shocked Far Cry 5 lets you pick gender and skin tone. Tho i think they will put another "you can beat the game in 5 minutes" move by if you choose to be white and very pale male you join the cult and game is over

 

[zeemumu]

Ugh, zee

I got wakin haze, my customers hoes sleep with me
we have small beef, i still sell em o's for three fifty
they known when big beef, i'll pop 100 times
they like road kill, i live niggas brains on 189
and my down bitches, they be ready to kill
i be like chill, they be like "thats my nigga fo real"

Thats my nigga fo real X3

I don't give a fuck if we dont sell a record


we still gunna get this money in the bricks
spill it zee

I'm like santa clause, i deliver niggas grams raw
straight from panama, they eat it up like hannibal
and my dons, they appear like magic wands
i sell em to the crack of dawn, and destroy every track im on
plus i have a clan packed in the back of vans
more raw than the taliban, murk you for a half a gram
i get bboy a truck, yo truck in the river
fuck some doe, he be like "thats my nigga fo real"

Thats my nigga fo real X3

Scarecrow what, im trying to walk before i crawl
I want it all, ever since i came outta my mommas walls
im trying to make so much doe when i write a song
i can vite em all, while ya'll click on the corner selling final calls


niggas mad at us, gladiators like maximus
we fabolous, while you fall off like canabis's managers
my man d, you keep the nina pillin
zee, point a mine and watch em soak em like sarina williams

Thats my nigga fo real X3

Zee need buddha, E user
Be freelookers spittin from our pt cruisers
my tank dont drop, i still got doe to make
got little niggas on rollerskates, holdin my coke and weight
blow paper, hole chaser, doe raiser, joe frasier
16 cellys and 4 pagers
go hype up your squad that they might fuck with ours
i just light up cigars, go buy bikes, trucks and cars
got axe n nitty in atlanta deep
ran the street, 10 grand a week
i got one word, dont put ya man to sleep


and i love my jersey live bitches
they leave a nigga, face with 35 stitches
they'll help me, cinder blocks and pushin kids so deep in the oceans
they see where octopusses live
this label deal is for raws pacin chill
i know mad heads, but still

Thats my nigga fo real

Sorry, did...did you want something?

 

[LotusHD]

I guess I don't understand why Japanese devs can pull inspiration from outside cultures when they want, but when it's about issues involving positive or negative representation, we have to pretend they're some isolated little island where nobody could possibly know or hear better.

They can pull in everything from esoteric Judeo-Christian imagery to the Terminator movies, but when it comes to this stuff there's literally no way they could possibly EVER know? Nah, I don't think I buy it.

Heh, so true.

One of the last games I played touched on all sort of themes in a clever manner, along with having both direct and subtle LGBT representation, so like, it gets frustrating when you get told that they just so happen to be eternally ignorant when it comes to certain topics.

You accept the excuse a couple of times, but as time passes, that excuse only works so many times before you gradually just kinda get sick of hearing it.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

Who's on that tekken 7 ?

PS4 or go home

 

[Shy]

*sigh* about the skin tone thread, Izuna. I'm gonna post bullet points, rather than a long post (because i'm too emotionally and physically exhausted lately)

-It's not just "US perception" I'm from the UK and i get pissed off by it.
- the "no ill intent" argument is a immaterial, it the end effect that matters. For example people who defend black Pete so there's no ill will there. Does that make it ok ? no, of course it bloody does well not.
-Japan (unfortunately) is infamous around the world for having ingrained Xenophobia and Racism. where Black Face (as well as other offensive imagery and depictions to other minority communities) is still regularly shown in the media. So don't say that's an air of artistic innocence as to why it's still happening, at best it's indifference.
-I'm not going to even touch the fact you don't feel your personal opinion matters because you haven't faced open discrimination. Because that might be the most offensive thing you've said on this entire page. especially when you use terms like "White voice" and bring up your skin complexion.

I knows there's more i could say. But i'm too tired. So i'll stop for now.

 

[DerangedHermit]

Yo oldmen, sorry, i mean Slayven and MHWilliams...heard you guys play ESO too? I haven't played much but got an account, think i'm going to start a new character with this new Morrowind xpac.

You guys liking the xpac?

(I play on the US servers with the SA guild)

Also, <3 highspeed internet for stuff like downloading huge ass patches

 

[hypernima]

I just think that 23andme don't bother with the differences, which is why there's no much "unknown". They just guess it's all West African if you let them "guess".

There's no reason why they can differentiate British and Irish from French but not Jamaican and West African.

They couldn't be bothered to sort out the legacy of the Taino and Boriquen I guess.

I can only imagine the results if a Maroon got DNA tested.

 

[TheSun]

Wow, you'd think that Berserk's second season would look a bit better.

How'd it get so shit looking I'll never know.

 

[IrishNinja]

Berserk is looking good.

Wow, you'd think that Berserk's second season would look a bit better.

How'd it get so shit looking I'll never know.

been sitting on this newer series and y'all aren't making me optimistic here

 

[Izuna]

*sigh* about the skin tone thread, Izuna. I'm gonna post bullet points, rather than a long post (because i'm too emotionally and physically exhausted lately)

-It's not just "US perception" I'm from the UK and i get pissed off by it.
- the "no ill intent" argument is a immaterial, it the end effect that matters. For example people who defend black Pete so there's no ill will there. Does that make it ok ? no, of course it bloody does well not.
-Japan (unfortunately) is infamous around the world for having ingrained Xenophobia and Racism. where Black Face (as well as other offensive imagery and depictions to other minority communities) is still regularly shown in the media. So don't say that's an air of artistic innocence as to why it's still happening, at best it's indifference.
-I'm not going to even touch the fact you don't feel your personal opinion matters because you haven't faced open discrimination. Because that might be the most offensive thing you've said on this entire page. especially when you use terms like "White voice" and bring up your skin complexion.

I knows there's more i could say. But i'm too tired. So i'll stop for now.

Well my personal opinion, if it does matter, is that there is basically zero ill effect to having Evil Ryu be a darker shade than Ryu. The connection to race and darker skin tones isn't an easy one to make and I think it's a stretch.

And the whole paragraph on that, and the "white voice" thing is more of a disclaimer, if only to shield myself from "you don't know what it's like".

But I'm on my way to start a work day on 15 minutes of sleep. I can't even think right now.

 

[Kreed]

I'm not talking about Japanese depictions of black people. I'm talking about that "dark skin for evil" thread ~~ where the darker skin is used to signify strength, feral-like behaviour or otherwise being possessed.

Looking at this with Western eyes and asking for a change is arrogant when there's the option of understanding their reason for it.

There was a post in there that was spot on from an artist, and they're okay with it because they understand it. In no way was the darker shade ever meant to say dark skin people are evil.

And then there's another point made about how many Japanese products, including video games, don't even get exported to the West. Which of course is problematic for other reasons *cough export country cough*.

Like shit, I detest modern anime but it seems massively arrogant to see everything as if it needs to cater to American views.

There are times where it's warranted, but this is not one of them.

You do realize this happens with Western products exported to Eastern cultures right? Hell, there was an entire thread about Doctor Strange's origin being changed because of China. This also isn't limited to "American views" either. Example, Japanese media that uses the Manji symbol that looks like a swastika are censored when sold in Western countries in general for obvious reasons. Regardless, there's nothing "arrogant" about changing content to be better received by the people you're selling it to, whether it's dubbing over the original voices for voices in the language the product is being sold to or removing scenes that could be seen as offensive. When US/Western games are sold in Japan, sometimes the violence/other content is toned down or censored (ex: The Last of Us, The Witcher 3, Uncharted: Drake's Fortune), or something offensive is removed like in Fallout 3 where a nuclear weapon was called the "Fat Man", which is the name of the bomb that hit Nagasaki, and it was renamed for the Japanese release.

I am in no way disregarding the effect it has, I'm more highlighting how there's practically zero ill intent and that it's not a fight worth having at all.

"Zero Ill Intent" thankfully is not what determines if something is offensive or not. ...Or anything actually outside of maybe your sentence when committing a crime. I think we can all think of examples of someone saying or doing something discriminatory that "didn't mean it".

That said, there are also plenty of examples of Japanese game developers changing their content after unintentional negative reaction in the West (ex: Jinx from Pokemon) so you're sticking your head in the sand saying things like "it's not a fight worth having" or there's no "realistic scope"

And the earlier comment about the anti-SJW crowd getting fucked... These are the very people you have to convince, so it's probably best to at least stick to less-extreme examples.

Protip: Anyone who uses SJW in a sentence in a non ironic fashion isn't worth wasting your time on.

I personally think it's ridiculous and counter-productive to be on this "it looks bad, therefore it is".

I've been understanding of why things is massively different in US, but equally so, that should go both ways.

And I am certainly not claiming to know a lot. Outside of the extremely obvious light vs. dark theme that exists in many cultures.

...You do know this was probably inspired by interactions with people from other cultures with darker skin right? Not even including the whole "darker skin = field worker" shit?

Overall though, the lesson you need to learn here Izuna is that people saying something is offensive =/= people accusing them of being racist or bad or some other shit. From people who dress up in black face for Halloween/Zwarte Piet, to White kids who want to say the N-word after hearing it in their favorite song. The actions can still be offensive to different people for different reasons and be called out accordingly. Does that mean developers/content creators have to change their content when ever someone finds it offensive? As always it's up to the content creators and if they think it's worth the effort. But there's nothing wrong with having the discussion at a minimum, and "outrage culture" BS trying to get people to not have the discussion at all is nonsense.

 

[Izuna]

No I don't know that, and neither can you.

~~

And you've got your timelines mixed up. All these main examples are games from early 0s and 90s, where back then Dr. Strange wouldn't have been changed for Chinese markets.

And besides, that's a very different thing. That's more about government pressure among other things.

What Japan exports to the West, which regards to the minorities within the West, will never be at the top of their priorities and nor should it be. If their economy depends on those exports, at the very least the cultural explanation for these things should proceed changing it up to not offend.

Or as you put it, not even something that offends, but is just regarded as "potentially insensitive"

...

But I am surprised. I'm surprised that so many care about something that's admittedly not offensive and want some sort of western pressure on devs to make Evil Ryu have everything but a darker skin tone than regular Ryu.

 

[Johndoey]

No I don't know that, and neither can you.

~~

And you've got your timelines mixed up. All these main examples are games from early 0s and 90s, where back then Dr. Strange wouldn't have been changed for Chinese markets.

And besides, that's a very different thing. That's more about government pressure among other things.

What Japan exports to the West, which regards to the minorities within the West, will never be at the top of their priorities and nor should it be. If their economy depends on those exports, at the very least the cultural explanation for these things should proceed changing it up to not offend.

Or as you put it, not even something that offends, but is just regarded as "potentially insensitive"

...

But I am surprised. I'm surprised that so many care about something that's admittedly not offensive and want some sort of western pressure on devs to make Evil Ryu have everything but a darker skin tone than regular Ryu.

Which is why people make comments, complaints, videos, whatever. Most of these devs and publishers know they're on an international stage and will, even if it's slowly, respond to pressure.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

After taking orientation, we had a class on harassment, of course. They stressed that intent didn't matter. It's how is interpreted.

Which is true. You don't want people to hide behind ignorance. This isn't to make a correlation between the two. But some truth is truth.

Western gaming has a bigger footprint now. And you can't ignore minority issues forever. They have translators. They gonna hear us now.

 

[Kreed]

No I don't know that, and neither can you.

&#129300;...nah, after the DNA convo you probably wouldn't care if I looked it up anyway.

And you've got your timelines mixed up. All these main examples are games from early 0s and 90s, where back then Dr. Strange wouldn't have been changed for Chinese markets.

And besides, that's a very different thing. That's more about government pressure among other things.

Changing content is changing content. The results are the same regardless of who you're changing it for, whether it's to not offend a certain group or government pressure, it comes down to selling your product and making it appealing to the most people possible in a new region.

Also certain portrayals of Tibet have been a "no go" in China for a while, so I don't know where you're coming from on the Doctor Strange change.

What Japan exports to the West, which regards to the minorities within the West, will never be at the top of their priorities and nor should it be.

Going outside of this video game discussion, but comments like this are why minority groups have problems all over the world. People thinking minority groups are "too small" to matter, so we get everything from White Washed movies to Police brutality of groups that can't "fight back" as much. Thankfully this point of view is changing (very very slowly).

If their economy depends on those exports, at the very least the cultural explanation for these things should proceed changing it up to not offend.

Or as you put it, not even something that offends, but is just regarded as "potentially insensitive"

Explanations are good too, but sometimes it's just easier to go into the source code and change a character's skin tone from one hex color value to another.

But I am surprised. I'm surprised that so many care about something that's admittedly not offensive and want some sort of western pressure on devs to make Evil Ryu have everything but a darker skin tone than regular Ryu.

To be honest I haven't even read the thread. I'm just responding to you because your viewpoint is too similar to the negative viewpoints of GAFers in Gaming side threads related to non White male groups, but unlike them you might actually listen.

 

[Beefy]

Afternoon BCT

 

[Secret Fawful]

Berserk is looking good.

Oh my fucking god.

 

[Hero Prinny]

Berserk is looking good.

What a pile of hot garbage. Never read or watched beserk and its things like this confirm to me im not missing out on much

 

[Lightning_Roller]

What a pile of hot garbage. Never read or watched beserk and its things like this confirm to me im not missing out on much

Woah woah and woah. Berserk is fucking amazing. The manga I mean. This anime though is straight trash.

 

[Secret Fawful]

What a pile of hot garbage. Never read or watched beserk and its things like this confirm to me im not missing out on much

 

[Darryl M R]

Good morning BCT. I hope some of the regulars will be down for OW today.

 

[hypernima]

Good morning BCT. I hope some of the regulars will be down for OW today.

I requested ya a year ago.

 

[Slayven]

Yo oldmen, sorry, i mean Slayven and MHWilliams...heard you guys play ESO too? I haven't played much but got an account, think i'm going to start a new character with this new Morrowind xpac.

You guys liking the xpac?

(I play on the US servers with the SA guild)

Also, <3 highspeed internet for stuff like downloading huge ass patches

yeah I had the game for a while but morrowwind is the first time I got into it. The warden class is dope.

 

[Izuna]

Lost an entire reply to windows phone crashing on me, awesome.

Tl;Dr, I disagree

 

[The Faceless Master]

I am in no way disregarding the effect it has, I'm more highlighting how there's practically zero ill intent and that it's not a fight worth having at all.

And the earlier comment about the anti-SJW crowd getting fucked... These are the very people you have to convince, so it's probably best to at least stick to less-extreme examples.

If we only fought when we thought we could win, we'd still be picking cotton.

 

[Lightning_Roller]

Good morning BCT. I hope some of the regulars will be down for OW today.

Of course.

 

[Beefy]

What's going on in here? &#129300;

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Morning, folks..

 

[Beefy]

Morning, folks..

Morning dad

 

[Izuna]

If we only fought when we thought we could win, we'd still be picking cotton.

Nah...





They'd be downgraded to QA Testers

 

[shingi70]

Arms is the next big tournament fighter.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Morning dad

 

[Htown]

Good morning BCT. I hope some of the regulars will be down for OW today.

Overwatch? Started playing the free weekend on PC last night

I do like it, but I'm not quite sure why everybody has gone crazy for this game. It's just a prettier TF2.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Arms is the next big tournament fighter.

Trolls gonna fight with one arm

 

[Secret Fawful]

If only Peter Parker could've gotten a mentor and guardian this cool.

 

[LionPride]

Fawful...I can't wait for Homecoming to come out so you can see that the movie will likely end with Tony realizing he doesn't need to mentor Peter and the fact he's probably only in there for 15/20 minutes so you can get off of that disdain fof him in the movie

 

[Slayven]

I think Homecoming will shock folks. It will be like GOTG 2 where the vast majority of the trailer is from the first 20 minutes of the movie.

You look at the GOTG 2 trailers after watching the movie and realized they didn't show shit

 

[Secret Fawful]

Fawful...I can't wait for Homecoming to come out so you can see that the movie will likely end with Tony realizing he doesn't need to mentor Peter and the fact he's probably only in there for 15/20 minutes so you can get off of that disdain fof him in the movie

Shrug. A character on screen for 15-20 minutes or less can make an entire movie.

They can turn my opinion around easily depending on how they execute it. I've come to realize lately that my problem isn't really Tony so much as the execution. I don't like seeing anyone define Pete but Pete, or Pete licking someone's boot heels. Not Tony, not Cap, not Banner, not Thor, not anybody. Don't even mind Pete having fandom for the big guys, but that never stopped him from telling them to get bent when they shit on him. If it was Cap and Pete going "Mr. Rogers, may I lick your feet clean, sir", I'd be on the fuck Steve Rogers train right now.

If I'm wrong, I'll say so and own it. No big deal. I want the movie to be great.

 

[EstoyBlackWaldo]

Mornin' folks...

___

What's going on in here? &#55358;&#56596;

Good question, but seems like fuckery tbh.

 

[LionPride]

Shrug. A character on screen for 15-20 minutes or less can make an entire movie.

They can turn my opinion around easily depending on how they execute it. I've come to realize lately that my problem isn't really Tony so much as the execution. I don't like seeing anyone define Pete but Pete, or Pete licking someone's boot heels. Not Tony, not Cap, not Banner, not Thor, not anybody. Don't even mind Pete having fandom for the big guys, but that never stopped him from telling them to get bent when they shit on him. If it was Cap and Pete going "Mr. Rogers, may I lick your feet clean, sir", I'd be on the fuck Steve Rogers train right now.

If I'm wrong, I'll say so and own it. No big deal.

He'a a 15 year old. A 15 year old who already looked up to Tony for engineering purposes and now has a suit made by him. Was recruited to fight heroes who saved his city. He's gonna say "Mr. Stark what can I do" "Mr. Stark this and Mr. Stark that" because he feels like he needs to. But when it's all said and done, he'll mature into being his own semi person. Peter will define his own self, but I sure as fuck didn't know who I was at 15. Most don't and an outside influence, positive or negative, helps you realize who you are to yourself.

 

[Slayven]

If only Peter Parker could've gotten a mentor and guardian this cool.

In the comics Spiderman is known as "The Last to Fall", in the future when Earth is invaded by Martians, Spiderman fought so long and so hard that after the aliens won they built a museum to preserve his body and honor him.

 

[LotusHD]

Lol my friends kinda aren't into Homecoming atm due to them feeling the trailers showed too much. I dunno, probably will do a complete 180 once they actually watch the movie.

been sitting on this newer series and y'all aren't making me optimistic here

What a pile of hot garbage. Never read or watched beserk and its things like this confirm to me im not missing out on much

Read Berserk, never watch it, that is all.

 

[LionPride]

I remember people thinkin the Guardians trailer showed a lot

 

[Izuna]

Complaining to 23andme

So yeah, they took the 6% or so "West African" DNA and extrapolated it in the "50% certainty" report.

46% unknown is fucking bullshit. And of course, they made the assumption that South European DNA was from the father's side "because it makes logical sense".

Not gunna pay £150 to get my Mother's done so they can claim she isn't so obviously mixed to the human eye.

 

[Secret Fawful]

He'a a 15 year old. A 15 year old who already looked up to Tony for engineering purposes and now has a suit made by him. Was recruited to fight heroes who saved his city. He's gonna say "Mr. Stark what can I do" "Mr. Stark this and Mr. Stark that" because he feels like he needs to. But when it's all said and done, he'll mature into being his own semi person. Peter will define his own self, but I sure as fuck didn't know who I was at 15. Most don't and an outside influence, positive or negative, helps you realize who you are to yourself.

And that can work. It depends on how they do it.

But Uncle Ben used to be Peter's hero. Now it's Tony and the Avengers.

Tony is both Peter's Uncle Ben and Norman Osborn right now.

But even more than that, so far we have, unless they retcon it in movie-

Tony shits on Spider-Man's homemade suit and makes him a new one
Tony gives Peter all of his webbing combinations
Tony polices Peter and tells him what missions he can and can't do
Tony coins "Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man"
Tony (as of Trailer 3)

Spoiler

is responsible for the Vulture existing somehow

Tony takes Peter's suit away, forcing him to have to work to get his suit back and earn Tony's respect and prove himself as a hero to Tony
TONY COINS "FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN"

A lot of it can be executed in a totally different way than they've made it look so that it really is Peter proving himself outside of Tony's shadow as his own hero. Even so, as long as they give Holland plenty of sequels I still think I'll like him the most overall. He really does have the traits to be Spidey. Things like flipping across a room to stand in front of a door to seem unassuming just as someone comes in are pure Spidey. That's the best.

I think it's extremely possible we haven't seen how the movie will go, but it's possible it's even more straight-forward than it seems. Who knows. I'm a broken record at this point.

In the comics Spiderman is known as "The Last to Fall", in the future when Earth is invaded by Martians, Spiderman fought so long and so hard that after the aliens won they built a museum to preserve his body and honor him.

Yep, I've read it and I love it.


EDIT: The fuck!? What happened to LionPride!?

 

[Alligatorjandro]

RIP lion pride

 

[EstoyBlackWaldo]

Damn LP, an AM clap?