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The Black Culture Thread |OT7| Luigi took our stare

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S

Slayven

Member
What gets me is when they do white characters in anime or manga, they tend to be super high class and everyone fronds over them.
 
J

Jado

Banned
boutdown said:
They don't, when Japanese artists draw characters, they think the characters look Asian.

When we read their mangas, we think that the characters look white.
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Don't buy this for a huge chunk of anime characters. From a young age I thought many characters were white, and this was long before I had much exposure to white culture or became conscious of "white = default" mentality. I think the American/Western/Disney influence and beauty ideals in their art is very deeply ingrained going back decades. It's too visually blatant to deny that anime characters don't look like ordinary Japanese people and more like light-haired, bright-eyed Ralph Lauren models. You see pop cultures of other countries all over trying to closely emulate so-called ideal Western beauty standards, and I don't think anime is exempt from this. "But stereotypical Americans are drawn more exaggerated!" argument doesn't invalidate the obvious root influences of the art styles.

Heck, look at when Japanese gamers criticized Faith from Mirror's Edge as being "ugly"... when she's a character that, far more than typical anime, realistically looks like an attractive Asian woman.
 
N

n00bsauce87

Member
skinnyrattler said:
Where do all the fine women in MD come from? You have a factory? A factory set on natural frizzy hair?
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The natural hair era has come alive in the DMV. It's a sight to behold every time I come to work and every time I go home. Even when they don't 10s all around. With the influx of black women going to work in DC from DC proper, VA and MD, the good tremendously outweighs the bad. You aren't gonna go to downtown dc looking a hot mess. I thank God for the eye candy.
 
N

n00bsauce87

Member
MHWilliams said:
These two are correct. Ignore the hair color, which is mostly for differentiation.

When Japanese mangaka and character designers draw white people, they tend to either go straight at the blonde haired/blue eyed look or they have larger facial features.

The exceptions to this tend to be in all-girl casts or harem, where they tend to throw in one American/German/mixed race girl, who doesn't look all that different from the regular cast. They tend to exaggerate these characters in some other way, like vocal tic or outfit. Frequently, foreign female characters are super bitchy.
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hqdefault.jpg


The one anime where they had a stereotypical field day, they get the American dude completely wrong. It's like the racist version of bizzaro world
 
D

Deleted member 47027

Unconfirmed Member
I remember watching this bad korean bootleg of yugioh long ago, some stuff got changed in the American release. Bandit Keith had a gun and held it to Pegasus' head and shit, there was Yugi's Grandpa being crucified...it was mental. It wasn't some Beyblade "violence and sex" shit but still surprising.
 
P

Parallax

best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
Silky said:
I'm rewatching Eureka Seven to see what exactly put me off on it. On episode 3 so far and honestly it's still very good. Weird how I never finished it.
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probably holland. if there was a dude deserving of a proper ass beating, it was him
 
M

MHWilliams

Member
Jado said:
Don't buy this for a huge chunk of anime characters. From a young age I thought many characters were white, and this was long before I had much exposure to white culture or became conscious of "white = default" mentality. I think the American/Western/Disney influence and beauty ideals in their art is very deeply ingrained going back decades. It's too visually blatant to deny that anime characters don't look like ordinary Japanese people and more like light-haired, bright-eyed Ralph Lauren models. You see pop cultures of other countries all over trying to closely emulate so-called ideal Western beauty standards, and I don't think anime is exempt from this. "But stereotypical Americans are drawn more exaggerated!" argument doesn't invalidate the obvious root influences of the art styles.
Click to expand...

Again, current designs all stem from older artists like Tezuka (later Ishinomori, Miyazaki, and Matsumoto), who are influenced by an American... Walt Disney. Essentially, non-human characters.

old-team-shot-by-shotaro-ishinomori.png

tezuka-thumb-800x613-58235.jpg


People see the larger eyes and assume, "That's not Asian!" but it's a direct throwback to a different time. Here, in bigger words.

The grotesque racial and ethnic stereotyping of former decades has been largely purged from the mainstream, but only to be replaced by less offensive, yet nonetheless stereotyped, signifiers. Non-Europeans living in a European-dominated society absorb these standards themselves, and not only are continuously made to be aware of their “otherness,” but adhere, out of necessity, to the Eurocentric system of signification. If an American of Asian descent wants to create a children’s book intended to build self-esteem among Asian American children and educate other children about Asian American experiences, she must first make sure the readers know that the characters represented are Asian, and so, consciously or not, she resorts to stereotyped signifiers that are easily recognizable, such as “slanted” eyes (an exaggerated representation of the epicanthic fold that is often, but not always, more pronounced in East Asians than in Europeans or Africans) or pitch black, straight hair (regardless of the fact that East Asian hair can range from near-black to reddish brown, and is often wavy or even frizzy). So it is that Americans and others raised in European-dominated societies, regardless of their background, will see a circle with two dots for eyes and a line for a mouth, free of racial signifiers, as “white.”

Japan, however, is not and never has been a European-dominated society. The Japanese are not Other within their own borders, and therefore drawn (or painted or sculpted) representations of, by and for Japanese do not, as a rule, include stereotyped racial markers. A circle with two dots for eyes and a line for a mouth is, by default, Japanese.

It should come as no surprise, then, that Japanese readers should have no trouble accepting the stylized characters in manga, with their small jaws, all but nonexistent noses, and famously enormous eyes as “Japanese.” Unless the characters are clearly identified as foreign, Japanese readers see them as Japanese, and it would never occur to most readers that they might be otherwise, regardless of whether non-Japanese observers think the characters look Japanese or not.
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It's an off-shoot of the idea that if I describe a character to you and never mention race, you'll assume they're white. Basically, without any signifiers, what race do you assume a character is? If the answer is "white", then it doesn't matter if you're from the US or UK, that particular societal norm has already become a part of your life.

For much of the 70s and 80s, they weren't aping America standards of beauty, they were just evolving an existing style. That style just happened to include things many categorize as "white": bigger eyes, light colored hair. But for the Japanese, that's just a normal anime/manga representation of themselves, which actually white characters tend to be exaggerated.
 
H

Hypemaster

Member
n00bsauce87 said:
The natural hair era has come alive in the DMV. It's a sight to behold every time I come to work and every time I go home. Even when they don't 10s all around. With the influx of black women going to work in DC from DC proper, VA and MD, the good tremendously outweighs the bad. You aren't gonna go to downtown dc looking a hot mess. I thank God for the eye candy.
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lol just don't head out further east in DC, I've seen plenty that look like a hot mess.

Suburban women in MD 10/10
 
A

Angelus Errare

Banned
MHWilliams said:
Again, current designs all stem from older artists like Tezuka (later Ishinomori, Miyazaki, and Matsumoto), who are influenced by an American... Walt Disney. Essentially, non-human characters.

old-team-shot-by-shotaro-ishinomori.png

tezuka-thumb-800x613-58235.jpg


People see the larger eyes and assume, "That's not Asian!" but it's a direct throwback to a different time. Here, in bigger words.



It's an off-shoot of the idea that if I describe a character to you and never mention race, you'll assume they're white. Basically, without any signifiers, what race do you assume a character is? If the answer is "white", then it doesn't matter if you're from the US or UK, that particular societal norm has already become a part of your life.

For much of the 70s and 80s, they weren't aping America standards of beauty, they were just evolving an existing style. That style just happened to include things many categorize as "white": bigger eyes, light colored hair. But for the Japanese, that's just a normal anime/manga representation of themselves, which actually white characters tend to be exaggerated.
Click to expand...

I would totally install a Firefox add on that allows me to like things regardless of where it is on the internet. About to archive this and bring it back out in those OT threads.
 
Tokubetsu

Tokubetsu

Member
Don't have a lot of fond memories of the original E7 but Astral Ocean was alright. Somewhere in the middle of E7 I just hated it, and by the end of the show all the characters were pissing me off.
 
M

MHWilliams

Member
Tokubetsu said:
Don't have a lot of fond memories of the original E7 but Astral Ocean was alright. Somewhere in the middle of E7 I just hated it, and by the end of the show all the characters were pissing me off.
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Eureka Seven had one of the best endings in an anime for me. Just brought the entire thing home.
 
J

Jado

Banned
I'll say you're right because that's good info and I simply don't know enough to add anything else, although I still wonder where the art style would've gone without the initial American/Disney influence.
 
G

Gorillaz

Member
Since yall are talking about that shit/anime, I finished DeathNote last night

Not bad but it could have been better if they planted more character development seeds from the get go. I liked it alot tho and liked how it all came "full circle"
 
G

Gorillaz

Member
ViewtifulJC said:
I was rooting for ol' dude in Death Note til he killed homeboy on that subway like a dick. Then I was like nah fuck this nigga
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that and the
chick he was dating that was a news reporter who was cool as hell
getting got, had me feeling some type of way for real
VWb1n.png


I was like "somebody fuck him up pls"
 
K

Kreed

Member
Jado said:
Heck, look at when Japanese gamers criticized Faith from Mirror's Edge as being "ugly"... when she's a character that, far more than typical anime, realistically looks like an attractive Asian woman.
Click to expand...

This is really interesting to think about in hindsight after MHWilliams' post.

Jado said:
I'll say you're right because that's good info and I simply don't know enough to add anything else, although I still wonder where the art style would've gone without the initial American/Disney influence.
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Japanese cartoons that were made before the 60s would be the best way to get an idea of where the style would have gone prior to Disney.
 
A

Angelus Errare

Banned
Vermillion said:
To be fair, they're often judging fictional characters and celebs. Their standards for normal people are more normal.
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Nah. Not at all, unless you mean more normal as in more inline with everyone else's unrealistic standards of beauty. I mean there are entire industries dedicated to "helping" women reach these hilarious unrealistic standards.

Videogame/fictional characters are even worse.

And really Faith from ME isn't a realistic "Asian" I mean just look at photos of the average Korean, Japanese, Chinese or Pacific Islander female. I think the better argument is she's the western's (or in this case some Swedish artist) idea of how an Asian woman looks.

Much like if a Japanese artist drew his depiction of a black female chances are high we wouldn't think it's accurate.
 
O

Oldschoolgamer

The physical form of blasphemy
boutdown said:
So I guess Nicki thinks her new single cover is getting hated on because she's black and that makes it not okay.

http://la-mindless-dominicana.tumbl...i-minaj-shining-a-light-on-the-differences-on
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Well there might be some truth (is), I find it really hilarious coming from her, considering the Malcom X thing and the fact that she was wearing fucking Chicken Wings around her neck and posing with fried chicken.

MagusKen said:
It was all a lie!
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Wow, that's still awesome.

EscoBlades said:
Bayonetta 2 footage - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hMDk_GlDno
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I need this. :(
 
K

Kreed

Member
Angelus Errare said:
And really Faith from ME isn't a realistic "Asian" I mean just look at photos of the average Korean, Japanese, Chinese or Pacific Islander female. I think the better argument is she's the western's (or in this case some Swedish artist) idea of how an Asian woman looks.

Much like if a Japanese artist drew his depiction of a black female chances are high we wouldn't think it's accurate.
Click to expand...

This is what I was getting at. When I first saw the Mirror's Edge story, I had an opinion similar to Jado's, but after MHWilliams' post, I'm more in line with this opinion of the situation.
 
J

Jado

Banned
Angelus Errare said:
Nah. Not at all, unless you mean more normal as in more inline with everyone else's unrealistic standards of beauty. I mean there are entire industries dedicated to "helping" women reach these hilarious unrealistic standards.

Videogame/fictional characters are even worse.

And really Faith from ME isn't a realistic "Asian" I mean just look at photos of the average Korean, Japanese, Chinese or Pacific Islander female. I think the better argument is she's the western's (or in this case some Swedish artist) idea of how an Asian woman looks.

Much like if a Japanese artist drew his depiction of a black female chances are high we wouldn't think it's accurate.
Click to expand...

As a standalone example, Faith really does look like ordinary Asian-American women I've seen walking around in NYC. I don't think there's anything fetishized or exaggerated in her appearance, except when you do look at the trends you indicated for Western artists always going for that one look. I think that's unfortunate because, like I said, women who do generally have those facial characteristics do exist and now they're made out to be a stereotype for silly Western games.

One thing is that the Japanese "redesign/photoshop" that was floating around at the time of the ME2 outrage was frankly no better/worse (wider eyes, smaller round face, lighter skin, bigger boobs). Someone changed it to another woman as if one's existence is inherently more valid than the other.

Quite honestly, the person (young Japanese gamer?) who did that redesign is no worse than a dumb Gaffer projecting his tastes due to the implications that this is "how our women MUST look to be beautiful," whereas the ME2 design has no associated baggage that Faith is the pinnacle of beauty even if it does rely on a stereotyped look.
 
A

Angelus Errare

Banned
90TilInfinity said:
Oh wow. I'd never heard of Cyborg 009 before that post, so thanks.
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It's really good.

Funny thing about anime is that if you look at stuff from the 40s and 50s before Disney's influence you most likely would mistake it for an American animation until they broke off into song and dance. As an example, I suggest watching Momotarou Umi no Shinpei. Anime became distinctly Japanese AFTER the introduction of Disney.

Which really is an entire thing within itself considering how much Disney influenced...everything animation related even things you might not immediately realize; like user interface interaction and animation, CG animation...basically anything that is animated can directly draw it's influence from Disney. 12 basic rules of animation is something Disney created and is very much the basics of animation today. It's like impossible to separate Disney influence from animation of any kind. It's like trying to separate "rhythm" from music.
 
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