Guess even the apple gods hate me too. Had written up some thoughts and my iPad keyboard froze and I lost it all. Wonderful
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The Black Culture Thread |OT8| Hands Up, Don't Shoot
- Thread starter ishibear
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BlackClouds
Member
No, and they are not dying out.
Unless the US suddenly becomes France and starts arresting people/issuing fines for using slurs, it is never going to die, especially on the internet where these people feel they can't be held accountable.
some people like that non-sexy look. (not me. but some people. I mean, it worked for Rob.)
I guess the average Twilight stan can identify with her more than FKA for some reason.....
Same here. I'm by no means a scholar on the subject, but so often I find the feminist I do come across and end up agreeing with are women of color.
n00bsauce87
Member
Was gonna come and say that, but I guess I have nothing else to add. Black women could never be a feminist because of race.
Flying Lotus - Never Catch Me (Official Audio) ft. Kendrick Lamar
Album is out and it's so good, I recommend it.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
I remember when I use to think this, and then twitter happened
I don't think the solution is non-black people speaking on black feminism. How would they even know where to begin? They're not black woman, they don't know the culture, and many don't intimately know the issues plaguing black women for that very reason and the immediate criticism would be that they're co-opting the black experience for their own gain, Iggy Azalea style. We see that shit all the time in popular culture.
I think what should be happening is black feminists being allowed in the spotlight of the movement and empowered to speak on Feminist issues as they uniquely apply to minorities, which is something that does happen. I want black women speaking up for themselves and being respected, not white people taking up the charge.
Also, the reason why I posted those two albums was to show that there have been black female musicians who have created music with strong feminist messages and imagery, and that were acknowledged for it. It ain't something that Bey pioneered. Nor were these women "excluded" from the club.
You want to know who gets excluded from the club? The Lil Kims and Trinas. The strippers and sex workers. The women who rap about their open sexuality brazenly (and not while hiding behind the shield of "...well, he's my husband!", not being dominated by no man, and using what they got to get what they want. Those are the women who excluded from the club by both white and black women.
Oldschoolgamer
The physical form of blasphemy
Same. The naivete of it all.
n00bsauce87
Member
What a lot of GAF members and others in society seems to be apart of. I realized that arguing with GAF is a waste of time.
Which shouldn't really even be happening because of sex-positive feminism, but I guess not everyone is into that.
A Question for some of you guys though, I'm thinking of making a zine based on black nerd/gaming subculture such as BCT. Besides obvious issues in the industry now, what else would be worth focusing on?
Angelus Errare
Banned
I agree
What I mean is you don't see women going "What about the plights of Asian, Hispanic and black females? We need to start getting them in on this!" they largely don't care because their plights don't affect them. It's basically the same attitude toward black people in the US in general. That very attitude is something women of color notice almost immediately and as such they find it necessary to create their own thing. What the movement needs are these girls going "Hey look at these women of color and their movement, we need to stop excluding them and bring them in it can only make us grow". As someone in the other thread said, the complete lack of unity is hampering progress.
White Girls' Club doesn't literally mean, white people only. It means "You can totally join, but we're not here to talk about your issues, we'll get to your issues after our issues are fixed."
There are so many books published on this very thing, that women of color feel excluded from the mainstream feminist movement, so this isn't some strange foreign concept I'm talking about. This is something that many females definitely see as an issue and has been an issue since the 1960s. The fact even mainstream feminists call it "black feminism" with that modifier clearly shows there is a schism. Speaking of, there is a book you should read (I've read it several times) called "Racism and Feminism: A Schism in the Sisterhood".
That's been a thing forever, again it's called womanism and the black feminist movement and it was directly born from black females believing that the feminist movement didn't care about them. It's been going on since 1960. Feminism and really any movement are just a look at society at large. You exclude "us" so we create our own, this is seen time and time again. Television, music stations, Hollywood, it's a never ending cycle. And almost always it involving co-opting and appropriation without inclusion. So yes, the mainstream movement might have been blasting Janet Jackson albums, but that doesn't mean it was an inclusive movement at the time. That's just nonsense. That's like saying, black music acts in the 40s/50s got spins on white radio so they were inclusive, or comic books are inclusive because of Dwayne McDuffie, or that video games are inclusive because you can name a few black developers. That isn't how it works and you know this.
You can't say mainstream feminism isn't excluding women of color then turn around and say you black feminist are speaking up and doing their own thing, they're doing that because they don't have a voice in the mainstream movement. If mainstream feminism was inclusive then there wouldn't be a need for womanism and black feminism movement.
At no point did anyone allude to Beyonce creating anything, but rather dismissing the painfully swallow argument that she isn't "down for the cause" or some half baked argument that she's "feminism lite" at the same time having the audacity to argue that feminism can't be described and is all inclusive. Just because you have a black friend doesn't absolve you of being a racist, much like just because feminist co-opt Janet Jackson's album doesn't absolve them of excluding WOC. Again WOC have been doing their thing since the 60s specifically BECAUSE they felt excluded.
And I doubt the average white feminist knows who the hell Lauryn Hill is outside of that girl in her Psych class who might have slept with her boyfriend.
The bold is just your personal dislike of Beyonce seeping through yet again as if she JUST started talking about sex. And why can't she sing about having sex with her husband? What a callous argument to put forth. As I stated in the other thread, being a feminist isn't about being anti man that so many people clearly seem to think. Being a feminist is about showing the world that women have the option to do anything a man does. Being married and singing about sex with your husband is as much the part of the movement as being single and talking about sleeping with random men. The backlash from conservative America arguing that she shouldn't be singing about that kind of stuff because it's "prude" and she's married is exactly why she should sing about it. Why can't see talk about it? She shouldn't have to conform to the what society says women should be when it comes to sex (modest). The whole point is to break down the notion that women don't enjoy sex, that women shouldn't talk about sex with their husbands. Why not? Men talk with other men about sex with their wives all the time. Why should she be modest about it?
And stop with the oppression Olympics, one group being excluded doesn't mean the other was not. As for no one speaking for those women, unless I live under a rock. Nicki Minaj has been doing it for the last 5 years where other women have been to scared too do such. Nicki gets shitted on constantly for being open about her sexuality, whether or not she's a lesbian, for making her videos too provocative. People for years have been saying "what about the kids!" as in be more modest! It's like how dare Nicki own her sexuality, how dare she rap about riding a dick! And honestly I think conservative white women have been shitting on Nicki ALOT harder than black females have, especially young black females.
Young girls (black and white) love Nicki specifically because of how she owns her sexuality without regard for the feelings of prudes and sexists the country over. How she throws away the idea that only skinny women are beautiful, that she and female can be a "bad bitch"; why do you think so many feminine gay men love Nicki Minaj (and Beyonce) much more than say Taylor Swift? In fact you can go through the last 2 Nicki threads on GAF and see how many people are turned off by Nicki because of how open she is about her sexuality and how they think she's a bad role model and she needs to be more modest. Unfortunately many old guard feminist paint owning one's sexuality as a negative thing because of their black and white views on what being a woman is about. Much like the men in the world that told them they should be modest and not forth coming with sex, many old guard feminist believe the same underlying thing. Slut shaming is big in feminist circles and it's a shame. At this point I honestly believe women shit on Nicki's sexual image more than men do...which shouldn't be happening, but how do you fight years of women being conditioned to believe that they shouldn't express their sexuality. Many women will argue that she can express herself sexually but be more modest...that's a contradiction. It's like someone telling you that you can be gay, just be modest about it. This seems to be the only thing we'll probably agree on in any sense of the word. Everything else we're going to continue to butt heads on since we have completely different views of women of color's inclusion/exclusion in the mainstream feminist movement, and I'll be completely honest…I you're not going to be able to convince me that my views on it are wrong.
You honestly seem to have the mindset of those older generation conservative "feminist" who clash completely against the young generation of "feminist". The old generation was about wearing men's clothes and cutting their hair like men to show men "we can do it too". The young generation is more about embracing being a female and showing that they have options to do what they want with their body, with their sexuality, how they dress. Time and time again, I see the old guard shake their fist at young women not doing what THEY see as feminism. For something people say can't be defined, people sure as hell like to try and define it.
I really need to stop double spacing after every period in a sentence.
ChamplooJones
Formerly Momotaro
I've come to the conclusion that gamers aren't ready for a black female lead.
Unless she's mixed.
Unless she's mixed.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Oh that goes without saying. And not just mixed she has to be racially ambiguious (Alyx, Nillin, Clementine) so people can go "She's black?! I totes thought she was white! I call BS!"
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
I mean, they could barely handle a black protagonist with CJ in San Andreas. We really just bring up that thread on here again. Those people need to be permanently put on blast and reminded of it every few years
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
I can do this...if everyone wants to see some fireworks.
n00bsauce87
Member
ChamplooJones
Formerly Momotaro
Man, that shit with Clementine was just depressing and funny at the same time. Dudes were denying her blackness left and right.
TheBlackMarvel
Member
I agree with this but it got me thinking, was Nilin in Remember Me mixed? That led me to Wikipedia where I found this gem:
That this is presented as a matter of fact reality rather than a shitty situation that needs fixing bothers me a lot.
Not only denying but jumping through all kind of hoops to prove folks wrong.
n00bsauce87
Member
Margaret Sullivan - New York Times Apologizes for "Angry Black Woman" Review of Shonda Rhimes' New TV Show: "Commentators Are Correct to Protest"
Can't have black women leads without criticism BEFORE the game (or in this case show) is out
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
Laughing at the quote by the Times editor that said the article was "Intended to be in praise of Ms. Rhimes".
Some backpedaling bullshit right there.
.
Where is her stand?
You and me both. It's hard to unlearn.
Your post deserves a more detailed response than I can give because I'm at work, but I want to point out that confusing two key points of mine:
1) in not denying Beyoncé her right to claim feminism.
2) I'm not saying that Beyoncé can't sing about sex because she's married. That doesn't even make sense. The problem if that when Beyoncé's raunchy routine gets compared to the Lil Kims and Trinas - women who receive next to no respect in the industry because of their over displays of sexuality - the response is always something along the lines of, "week, it's different with Beyoncé. she's being freaky for her HUSBAND. She ain't being a hoe like them." When that really shouldn't matter.
Thorough response when I get out of work and can actually type.
I gotta get on top of this. Mumei linked me some articles to read (why I disappeared last night lol) and I really feel like there's simply too much bullshit going on. This is a fantastic post btw.
I wanted to talk about Nicki but you've got it covered. Nicki is absolutely a great feminist icon to me. Maybe it's my bias for her but she's always been such a powerful person who owns her sexuality. Beyonce owns hers as well. I feel disgusted that we're gonna throw around feminist lite accusations and telling other women how to be feminist. That goes against everything behind the movement to me and if it means I'll have to start looking into womanism, so be it.
Kinda demoralizing to think feminism has so far to go. But I suppose I should've expected it given racism in this country.
n00bsauce87
Member
That's EXACTLY why her response on instagram with white female bodies on magazine covers portrays perfectly what mainstream feminism is all about when all women of all races are concerned
Angelus Errare
Banned
Man on the subject of black female lead characters in games. I really hate this idea that a white writer would not be able to write a good black female character. Such fucking nonsense. I'll plug this yet again, but Max Gladestone's Three Parts Dead main character is black and is amazingly well written despite the fact Max probbaly knew no black women (Yale graduate and taught in China). You don't need to be black to NOT write a stereotype ridden character. It is seriously a weak argument; and I doubly hate the idea that the writer has to beat you over the head with a character's "blackness". I mean why can't a character be someone in a fucked up situation who just happens to be black? Why do the characters need to have some defining "blackness"? That's backwards. That's like when cartoons make sure the black characters have big lips and a wide nose to indicate to the audience "This character is black!"
But I digress.
But you have been in the other thread like crazy fam. It's just a bloody word and apparently isn't even suppose to be a defined thing, but you and a few others have been in that thread saying Bey isn't a feminist/is feminist lite because...
You literally have made a post about how she isn't a feminist (and by proxy you're arguing/denying her right to claim the word).
Beyonce sings about being freaky for her husband and is STILL called a hoe on the regular. Look in the feminism thread, and there are people straight up calling her a stripper ffs; clearly to them it doesn't matter if she's married or not. A hoe's a hoe's a hoe in their eyes (and completely contradicts feminism or at least what I would consider feminism). It doesn't matter who she's singing about. Women who are open sexually will be called a hoe regardless. I mean look at how many people use the fact beyonce sings about sex period as a sleight against her and why she can't be a feminist. It's mental decathlons all day.
You have it backwards, Trina, Lil Kim, Foxy Brown, Eve and others were the rare females who did gain respect in an industry dominated by men. Those females shaped their image and didn't change it to appease those who wanted something modest, they dominated headlines and billboards alike without changing their image to make mommies and daddies feel safe; they talked about their sexuality, they talked about issues they faced. What you should be saying is we need more women like that who aren't afraid to be sexual creatures. This is the exact reason why Nicki has been running the game for the last 5 years. She isn't playing it safe, you either accept Nicki for who she is or you don't matter to her. It's the reason why Rihanna shed her good girl image, she wasn't trying to appease a bunch of sexually repressed prudes she has even stated as much. What you should be saying is we need more women talking about sex in any capacity, not saying oh Beyonce is meh because it's about her husband. Who cares who's receiving fellatio from her. The fact she talks about is what's important.
A bunch of prude women saying Beyonce is different because she's talking about her husband isn't the fault of Beyonce. That's just prude women stuck with the notion they shouldn't be talking about sex like that; something they've been conditioned to think for centuries/decades.
In this country a female talking about sex is quickly taken to task for it. Look at how media speared Britney over that song "Slave 4 U" you can hear her say "I just wanna have sex with you" and how quickly Britney backed away from it. Beyonce has been taken to task several times about singing about sex and not once has she backtracked on it. Shit she was taken to task for Naughty Girl being too provocative, and this was during a time she was neither married or actually sexually active but yet she didn't back away from the song.
Like I said in the other thread, most of you just seem to be using your personal dislike of Beyonce as means to argue why she's not a "feminist" in your eyes. I mean lest she's burning panties, and yelling out "my ovaries I can do what I want" and other near militant/doesn't actually do the movement any good shit. Beyonce has done much more speaking for women empowerment than damn near 90% of female celebrities who get a pass constantly.
People are so quick to forget how mainstream America (specifically women) were shitting on Nicki for that and Nicki was so quick to point out the double standard at work.
Notice no clap back against Iggy flaunting her ass in her music videos. Nicki does it and it's a problem and people start with the mental decathlons about her being a damn representative oft he black community and how she needs to be uplifting with her music. If Nicki was white and made that video, Vogue would have called that shit bold, new and innovative.
Such double standard racist nonsense. Nicki called that shit for exactly what it was.
But I digress.
But you have been in the other thread like crazy fam. It's just a bloody word and apparently isn't even suppose to be a defined thing, but you and a few others have been in that thread saying Bey isn't a feminist/is feminist lite because...
You literally have made a post about how she isn't a feminist (and by proxy you're arguing/denying her right to claim the word).
Beyonce sings about being freaky for her husband and is STILL called a hoe on the regular. Look in the feminism thread, and there are people straight up calling her a stripper ffs; clearly to them it doesn't matter if she's married or not. A hoe's a hoe's a hoe in their eyes (and completely contradicts feminism or at least what I would consider feminism). It doesn't matter who she's singing about. Women who are open sexually will be called a hoe regardless. I mean look at how many people use the fact beyonce sings about sex period as a sleight against her and why she can't be a feminist. It's mental decathlons all day.
You have it backwards, Trina, Lil Kim, Foxy Brown, Eve and others were the rare females who did gain respect in an industry dominated by men. Those females shaped their image and didn't change it to appease those who wanted something modest, they dominated headlines and billboards alike without changing their image to make mommies and daddies feel safe; they talked about their sexuality, they talked about issues they faced. What you should be saying is we need more women like that who aren't afraid to be sexual creatures. This is the exact reason why Nicki has been running the game for the last 5 years. She isn't playing it safe, you either accept Nicki for who she is or you don't matter to her. It's the reason why Rihanna shed her good girl image, she wasn't trying to appease a bunch of sexually repressed prudes she has even stated as much. What you should be saying is we need more women talking about sex in any capacity, not saying oh Beyonce is meh because it's about her husband. Who cares who's receiving fellatio from her. The fact she talks about is what's important.
A bunch of prude women saying Beyonce is different because she's talking about her husband isn't the fault of Beyonce. That's just prude women stuck with the notion they shouldn't be talking about sex like that; something they've been conditioned to think for centuries/decades.
In this country a female talking about sex is quickly taken to task for it. Look at how media speared Britney over that song "Slave 4 U" you can hear her say "I just wanna have sex with you" and how quickly Britney backed away from it. Beyonce has been taken to task several times about singing about sex and not once has she backtracked on it. Shit she was taken to task for Naughty Girl being too provocative, and this was during a time she was neither married or actually sexually active but yet she didn't back away from the song.
Like I said in the other thread, most of you just seem to be using your personal dislike of Beyonce as means to argue why she's not a "feminist" in your eyes. I mean lest she's burning panties, and yelling out "my ovaries I can do what I want" and other near militant/doesn't actually do the movement any good shit. Beyonce has done much more speaking for women empowerment than damn near 90% of female celebrities who get a pass constantly.
People are so quick to forget how mainstream America (specifically women) were shitting on Nicki for that and Nicki was so quick to point out the double standard at work.
Notice no clap back against Iggy flaunting her ass in her music videos. Nicki does it and it's a problem and people start with the mental decathlons about her being a damn representative oft he black community and how she needs to be uplifting with her music. If Nicki was white and made that video, Vogue would have called that shit bold, new and innovative.
Such double standard racist nonsense. Nicki called that shit for exactly what it was.
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
I've been going through this post today, some really great stuff in here. Thanks for taking the time to organize and share.
Angelus Errare
Banned
It's my /s tag for those who have yet to pick up on my sarcasm (there are still people out there who think I'm serious when I start with the hyperbole).
You got me confused with other people. I even say in one of my posts in that thread that none of my critiques makes Beyoncé not a Feminist.
I don't give a shit about the bullshit "she's too pretty," or " she's to sexual" arguments about Beyoncé's feminism. My issues with Beyoncé, going back to debates even in PopGAF, have more to do with her using the label as personal branding, and the gross inconsistency in her messaging. Beyoncé tries to have it both ways. You can't be a feminist pioneer for your album and then rapping and dancing along to your husband's incredibly anti-female lyrics for your tour. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Obviously I agree that a lot of female MCs were pioneers. I disagree with the idea that they were respected for it. They weren't. Go drop their names in Gaf-HOP if you don't believe me.
Storm Chamber
Banned
Trina though bruh
In contrast, I use totes in normal convo.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
So that GTA thread brought up a good question. Was CJ the first black main character in a videogame? Ignoring licensed stuff with athletes, stars, etc. If so...that's pretty sad
Oh that dumbass, she shitted all over poor Viola in the article.
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