• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

The Black Culture Thread |OT9| More Priest, Less Hudlin

Status
Not open for further replies.

Oldschoolgamer

The physical form of blasphemy
What they did to Crysis burned me beyond belief. They created one of the GOAT fps and then threw it in the fucking beyond with the next sequel, chasing COD money.
 
R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
I don't get the problem with ads

Do people flip out when they pop up in movies and TV shows?
 

J10

Banned
What if the game is fun tho

With ADS in games like CoD and Battlefield, you trade mobility for accuracy. Just walking while trying to shoot without ADS is less accurate than standing still.

Traditionally in Halo, you can aim, jump, run, and strafe all at the same time without ever having to give up your accuracy. Why would anyone ever want to make that trade off, I have no idea, but the CoD kids love it.

Sprinting apparently necessitates larger maps. Halo on larger maps is rarely ever fun because Halo breaks down into essentially two parts - find your opponents, then figure out how to kill your opponents - and the finding your opponents part becomes tedious if the map is too big. Sprinting also encourages running away from firefights, which is a problem because Halo's kill times are already typically more drawn out. So then shorten the kill times, right? OK, then why the hell am I even playing Halo at that point?

And then in Halo 4 they added instant respawn - which completely ruins the take-a-breather part of the game - you can't ever enjoy the reward of a kill or series of kills (superior positioning/weapon pickups) when they repawn instantly and come running back to where they just died to clean you up. The recharge period was an important part of the whole game.

Find a guy, kill the guy (shoot/grenade/dodge incoming fire), take a moment to recharge your shields and reload, then do it again - that's how Halo is supposed to flow. Take all that away and you might as well not be playing Halo.
 
Good post J10

What they did to Crysis burned me beyond belief. They created one of the GOAT fps and then threw it in the fucking beyond with the next sequel, chasing COD money.

It's annoying that all shooters are trying to play exactly like COD. I mean, imagine if all fighting games had the same flow and mechanics as SF4.

343i doubling down on their Halo 4 nonsense is hilarious though.
 

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
It's literally that kind of issue. I'm not saying that 343 blurring the boundaries between Halo and Call of Duty was the right move, but I don't think doubling down on tradition and staying the course is the solution either. I'll just say that I'll be equally disappointed if 343 decides to look back for solutions on how to solve Halo 4's issues as I would if they continued to draw inspiration from a franchise that already has enough clones. Halo is only going to continue as viable brand if they innovate. Looking back and sideways for inspiration is just going to continue the franchises downward trend.

It was a viable brand until they tried to 'innovate' though
 
R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
I don't think developers owe fans shit. Buying and playing a product doesn't entitle you to anything out of it.

Devs should just make the game they want to make. If fans can't fuck with that, time to move on to something else.

My experience with GG Xrd sort of colors my opinion here. With that game a lot of fans are complaining about characters being dropped in place of newer ones.

and I can't help but just think fuck those people. New content for new games. If you really like the old games, they're not going anywhere. In Halo's case they're about to get a huge revival with MCC. Just go play that and let the devs make the game they decide to make.
 
10731700_1536501699925919_1264932386_n.jpg
.
 

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
I don't think developers owe fans shit. Buying and playing a product doesn't entitle you to anything out of it.

Devs should just make the game they want to make. If fans can't fuck with that, time to move on to something else.

My experience with GG Xrd sort of colors my opinion here. With that game a lot of fans are complaining about characters being dropped in place of newer ones.

and I can't help but just think fuck those people. New content for new games. If you really like the old games, they're not going anywhere. In Halo's case they're about to get a huge revival with MCC. Just go play that and let the devs make the game they decide to make.
If 343 wanted to go do their own shit they should've done that with a new IP...
I'd agree if Reach weren't a thing before Halo 4

Halo 4's online community dropoff was probably the biggest and fastest in gaming history. Reach had its issues but it wasn't even in the same realm.
 
I don't think developers owe fans shit. Buying and playing a product doesn't entitle you to anything out of it.

Devs should just make the game they want to make. If fans can't fuck with that, time to move on to something else.

My experience with GG Xrd sort of colors my opinion here. With that game a lot of fans are complaining about characters being dropped in place of newer ones.


and I can't help but just think fuck those people. New content for new games. If you really like the old games, they're not going anywhere. In Halo's case they're about to get a huge revival with MCC. Just go play that and let the devs make the game they decide to make.

Cute sentiment that really only works if you conveniently ignore the fact videogames cost millions upon millions to create. Or alternatively the entire consumer to product relationship.

If they want to make a COD clone they can create a new franchise much like MS did with Forza Horizon. They didn't fundamentally change Forza while in pursuit of Need for Speed/Test Drive money. They simply created a new franchise that targets that group specifically.

And the bold isn't really the same thing as mechanics changes. The equivalent would be ArkSys changing Xrd to play like SFxT.
 

Trey

Member
I don't think developers owe fans shit. Buying and playing a product doesn't entitle you to anything out of it.

Devs should just make the game they want to make. If fans can't fuck with that, time to move on to something else.

My experience with GG Xrd sort of colors my opinion here. With that game a lot of fans are complaining about characters being dropped in place of newer ones.

and I can't help but just think fuck those people. New content for new games. If you really like the old games, they're not going anywhere. In Halo's case they're about to get a huge revival with MCC. Just go play that and let the devs make the game they decide to make.

343 owes me not to fuck up core principles about the franchise I love. I'm bothered that I have to, once again, talk myself into a game that should be a no brainer. I can live with sprint, but ADS is too far. It destroys the free flowing movement that Halo is inherently based upon.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
I don't think developers owe fans shit. Buying and playing a product doesn't entitle you to anything out of it.

Devs should just make the game they want to make. If fans can't fuck with that, time to move on to something else.

My experience with GG Xrd sort of colors my opinion here. With that game a lot of fans are complaining about characters being dropped in place of newer ones.

and I can't help but just think fuck those people. New content for new games. If you really like the old games, they're not going anywhere. In Halo's case they're about to get a huge revival with MCC. Just go play that and let the devs make the game they decide to make.

If you don't want to make a game that plays like the old games, then go ahead. Just don't call it Halo.

You can't have it both ways. You call the game "Halo" because you want people who bought the old Halo games to think, "hey I liked Halo, let me buy this new one." The upside is that you get increased sales, the downside is you have to put up with people saying "this is not like the one I liked before."

You can't use the name of something people liked to try and get their money, and then act like they're doing you a disservice by comparing the thing you made to the thing they liked.
 

J10

Banned
Apparently the leak was intentional so everybody can get their rage out today and "fans" can't "ruin" tomorrow's official reveal.

The press won't really care and the CoD crowd will just play CoD. Once again, not really sure who it's for.

And Shinobi just confirmed that Locke is the main character of H5 primarily.

That's cool.

And Frankie flat out said a couple months ago that was not the case. Interesting.
 
I don't really care about halo so it's no big deal to me

Gotta agree with Ole Equus. I haven't remotely cared for a Halo game since Reach. And that was because of a bet. But it's amazing to see how they took a franchise and turned it on its ear because the competition does it. What's event more fucked is how all FPS' s are regressing back to arena shooters. We coming full circle lol.
 
Even if I agree with the sentiments of the people saying it...

...I've gotta say, "problematic" is quickly becoming one of my least favorite words.
 
R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
Cute sentiment that really only works if you conveniently ignore the fact videogames cost millions upon millions to create. .

How so?

I'm not acting like their decision to copy COD is some form of artistic expression or anything. It's just what makes the most sense for them to make, or what they feel they can make or what they feel people want to buy etc.


If they want to make a COD clone they can create a new franchise much like MS did with Forza Horizon.

lol I could throw what you said right back at you. Games cost millions of dollars to make and establishing new franchises even moreso with less potential for return than new entries in established and popular franchises.

So why the hell would anyone create an entirely new franchise to make something so similar to an established and profitable brand they already own? So their fans can sleep at night knowing their precious Halo is peacefully at rest?

And the bold isn't really the same thing as mechanics changes. The equivalent would be ArkSys changing Xrd to play like SFxT

Most Guilty Gear fans can't even tell the difference between versions, but actual players have criticized some of the new mechanics in the game. Such as the addition of YRC and added slowdown to the RC mechanics. Really hurts the pace of the neutral game when characters can YRC backdashes for 25% meter for the slow down to see a mixup, or cancel a super move with YRC to make use of the invul startup frames without consuming the resources for it.

but as a fan I'm going to buy it, play it and form my own opinion. If I don't like it, Accent Core +R isn't going anywhere. Has all the characters and the mechanics I'm used to.

343 owes me not to fuck up core principles about the franchise I love. I'm bothered that I have to, once again, talk myself into a game that should be a no brainer. I can live with sprint, but ADS is too far. It destroys the free flowing movement that Halo is inherently based upon.

They really don't though.

They gotta make you a game. That's it. It doesn't have to be tailor made to your expectations.

You can't have it both ways. You call the game "Halo" because you want people who bought the old Halo games to think, "hey I liked Halo, let me buy this new one." The upside is that you get increased sales, the downside is you have to put up with people saying "this is not like the one I liked before."

You can't use the name of something people liked to try and get their money, and then act like they're doing you a disservice by comparing the thing you made to the thing they liked.

I'm not saying you can't complain. I'm just saying I don't think devs are required to make games exactly how fans demand they should be made.

Both sides don't owe the other anything. All you can do is play what they put out, or not. All they can do is make the game they can make and see if people buy it/ like it.

Sucks if you buy products solely out of brand loyalty, but honestly that's a dumb position to be in to begin with.
 

Trey

Member
Gotta agree with Ole Equus. I haven't remotely cared for a Halo game since Reach. And that was because of a bet. But it's amazing to see how they took a franchise and turned it on its ear because the competition does it. What's event more fucked is how all FPS' s are regressing back to arena shooters. We coming full circle lol.

No. Halo was the last mainstream arena shooter. Fps now are more arcade shooters.
 

EloquentM

aka Mannny
I agree with retro. That being said I hardly think devs or publishers are right when they do things like this. At the end of the day they're a business but betraying fans that got them where they are is fucked up even if they don't owe them anything.
 

Trey

Member
When you become the developers of a certain franchise, you owe it to the fans of the franchise some continuity on basic, core principles.

It's their right as do as they please with the game they create, but they owe it to the fans to create more games that they will like.

The concept of "owe" is not mutually exclusive with a devs right to create the game they want.
 
Listening to this dude freestyle on the Queen's show is putting the L in Latifah.

Anyways, Nu Black might be some folks mentality, but you best believe that not everyone thinks like that.
Shit, my wife just got stares with no help in a furniture store while the older white ladies got help immediately. She was there to buy about 6 chairs at 300 apiece, while the chicks didn't buy shit. So after about 15 mins of that, she leaves, calms down and proceeds to call the store and let them know exactly why they will not get thousands like the other furniture stores in the area, and then of course, it's sorrow and "I'm sure that's not the reason", "let me get my manager", etc.

Fuck all that noise. You get nothing.
And they did that shit to Oprah.

So yea, might be some folks mentality, but not mine. Doesn't matter how much you have, some folks don't care, and that attitude doesn't work.
 
R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
I agree with retro. That being said I hardly think devs or publishers are right when they do things like this. At the end of the day they're a business but betraying fans that got them where they are is fucked up even if they don't owe them anything.

The problem with fans is that they're short sighted and reactionary.

Sometimes you just have to give new ideas time to develop. Pre-arcade release alot of Guilty Gear fans were complaining about the slow down added to Roman Cancels would "dumb the game down"

but then people actually played it in the arcade and generally....most players like the slow down.

The system still has its problems, but the problems are ones that no one could see pre-release. The developers or the fans. They only became apparent after people had played the game for a good period of time and formed a practical opinion on how the game works.

Had ArcSys listened to fans pre-release and gotten rid of the slow down, players would have never known how fun it was. The developers would have never gotten a chance to iterate and expand on the idea because they had killed it prematurely to appease the mob.

and that's why I don't think it's ever a good idea for developers to listen to that kind of pre-release feedback. Fans can't see the big picture pre-release, so you shouldn't be making changes to it based on insubstantial, emotional reactions to change
 
Halo MCC is the steak they ordered for you, now wait here they need to goto the bathroom for 1 year and when they come back (with a gun) we can finish this


This Locke hatred and he isn't even Nu Black yet. Halo 6 he'll appear Dominican
 

Oldschoolgamer

The physical form of blasphemy
Bruh...

They already did this (as in add unnecessary changes to gameplay) and IT DID fuck up the game balance and introduced more pacing problems. This isn't a case of them trying something for the first time. They did it in Halo 4 and the result was that the dropoff to the multiplayer was one of the all time worst.
 
R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
How many franchises have actually succeeded by going down this path? Resident Evil is probably one of the only ones, and it was necessary.
.

Team Fortress 2

CS:GO

Tomb Raider

Marvel 3

does Diablo 3 count? I have no idea what kind of changes went into the complete 180 in general opinion towards that game.
 

I'm not acting like their decision to copy COD is some form of artistic expression or anything. It's just what makes the most sense for them to make, or what they feel they can make or what they feel people want to buy etc.[/quote]

They (and we) have the gaming statistics that show Halo players don't want either in the game. As DY mentioned the drop off in Halo 4 online play was quick


lol I could throw what you said right back at you. Games cost millions of dollars to make and establishing new franchises even moreso with less potential for return than new entries in established and popular franchises.

It's either that or you kill your main franchise chasing after another franchise's success (said success that is on a downward trend, while your old proven formula has been on a continuing upward trend). Very rarely do you chase downward trends.

In business you rarely change your formula during an upward trend, and you don't really double down on poor attachment rates that can adversely affect the next outing in a negative way.

What you can do is establish a new franchise or create an offshoot of your established brand utilizing a smaller budget as a test bed of sorts for finding what your consumers want/don't want. And in that regard, Halo fans were pretty clear that they didn't want ADS/Sprint in Halo. One only has to look at Halo 4's MP attachment rate (and how hilariously fast it plummeted) to see that adding COD elements wasn't something consumers want in their product.


So why the hell would anyone create an entirely new franchise to make something so similar to an established and profitable brand they already own? So their fans can sleep at night knowing their precious Halo is peacefully at rest?

So that they don't loose their current userbase chasing after another franchise's userbase. Halo 4 already showed us that 1. COD fans didn't migrate to Halo because...they have COD. 2. Halo fans aren't receptive to COD elements in their game. So...who exactly where they going after? New players? There are not nearly enough "new" players to cover the losses from old players quitting. While it's early in XBO's life and they're likely expecting low sales numbers based off that. Alienating long term Halo players for these new players isn't smart, because the next outting (Halo 6) will suffer for it. They make a calculated risk and know that they'll lose some of their long term users, but the hope/aim is that there will be enough new players to make up the difference. But what if they lose too many long term Halo players and don't get enough new players? Then Halo 6 comes out, those long term players continue to leave (chances are MS would force 343i to regress to tradition Halo mechanics, but let's pretend they don't) and Halo 6 doesn't onboard enough new players. Your product is now on a downward trend, it's hard to correct downward trends because you're now fighting against the general consumer assumption that it'll be "the same shit, different day".

You can really apply this simplified consumer-product-company explanation to any sector and it'll hold up. You have to balance keeping your existing base with attracting a new base. Your blase ideology of "fuck the old base because" rarely works in real life, doubly so in the videogame industry.


Most Guilty Gear fans can't even tell the difference between versions, but actual players have criticized some of the new mechanics in the game. Such as the addition of YRC and added slowdown to the RC mechanics. Really hurts the pace of the neutral game when characters can YRC backdashes for 25% meter for the slow down to see a mixup, or cancel a super move with YRC to make use of the invul startup frames without consuming the resources for it.

but as a fan I'm going to buy it, play it and form my own opinion. If I don't like it, Accent Core +R isn't going anywhere. Has all the characters and the mechanics I'm used to.

And if they quit making GG you'd be upset (or you can front and say you're fine...which would be a lie). Because without people to purchase their games there is no reason continue to make the games. That is why forsaking your current userbase to get the userbase of another existing and successful franchise isn't the smartest play, because many times you'll end up with neither in the end. Point in case DmC. They alienated their DMC fanbase in order to get a new nonexistent at that point fanbase and they ended up losing majority of the DMC fanbase, and this new fanbase wasn't enough to make up for that loss. DmC ended up selling less than half of DMC4 despite the fact DMC4 came out in 2008 when there were only like 55m PS3/360 users to DmC's 140m PS3/360 users.

They gotta make you a game. That's it. It doesn't have to be tailor made to your expectations.

But they do, if your statement was true then every game that has ever been created should by definition be a success by every definition of the word.

They have to make a game that you're willing to buy, if no one buys your game then you fail, it's as simple as that.

Both sides don't owe the other anything. All you can do is play what they put out, or not. All they can do is make the game they can make and see if people buy it/ like it.

Capitalism disagrees with this. The end goal is always more profits. You can't attain more profits if you don't respect your userbase. Consumers are only going to be loyal to you as long as your company maintains the illusion that you're loyal to consumers. The instant you remove that facade is the moment where your profits will suffer. Apple has mastered this like few companies can.

Sucks if you buy products solely out of brand loyalty, but honestly that's a dumb position to be in to begin with.

See above passage, again your views are that of one of those people feel like they're removed from "typical sheeple" mentality. Brand loyalty is very power and very much a driving force of capitalism. Ignoring it or dismissing it doesn't make you look smarter than the average person or enlightened. The complete opposite really, it just shows you have a tenuous understanding of how the consumer-product-company relationship works.
 

Silky

Banned
The problem with fans is that they're short sighted and reactionary.

Sometimes you just have to give new ideas time to develop. Pre-arcade release alot of Guilty Gear fans were complaining about the slow down added to Roman Cancels would "dumb the game down"

but then people actually played it in the arcade and generally....most players like the slow down.

The system still has its problems, but the problems are ones that no one could see pre-release. The developers or the fans. They only became apparent after people had played the game for a good period of time and formed a practical opinion on how the game works.

Had ArcSys listened to fans pre-release and gotten rid of the slow down, players would have never known how fun it was. The developers would have never gotten a chance to iterate and expand on the idea because they had killed it prematurely to appease the mob.

and that's why I don't think it's ever a good idea for developers to listen to that kind of pre-release feedback. Fans can't see the big picture pre-release, so you shouldn't be making changes to it based on insubstantial, emotional reactions to change

This only applies if the stuff being added to H5 was their first time experimenting.

They experimented nd tried something new with H4. They fucked up, and population dropped within months.
 

Trey

Member
Retro, friend, these are completely different scenarios.

I know how ADS works. There's nothing else it can do but bring down Halo's gameplay.

It's ADS. J10 already laid out why it sucks. Dy did too. I did as well. There's no "wait and see". It's ADS, the most widely used feature in modern shooters. And this feature runs completely counter to everything Halo is about.

The fans understand enough. We don't like it.
 

J10

Banned
Bruh...

They already did this (as in add unnecessary changes to gameplay) and IT DID fuck up the game balance and introduced more pacing problems. This isn't a case of them trying something for the first time. They did it in Halo 4 and the result was that the dropoff to the multiplayer was one of the all time worst.

I assume the online population is largely irrelevant unless a developer cares about bragging rights. First day sales are more important than whatever they can squeeze out of DLC buyers 2 months after the fact. They'll turn an insane profit within the first 24 hours. You can probably be sure that the DLC is budgeted with the production and marketing costs of the game release proper, so it doesn't matter if no one sticks around to buy more stuff later so long as that first day is profitable.
 
I assume the online population is largely irrelevant unless a developer cares about bragging rights. First day sales are more important than whatever they can squeeze out of DLC buyers 2 months after the fact. They'll turn an insane profit within the first 24 hours. You can probably be sure that the DLC is budgeted with the production and marketing costs of the game release proper, so it doesn't matter if no one sticks around to buy more stuff later so long as that first day is profitable.

It's important because it gives indication about future titles and can map franchise fatique. It's the reason why COD changes are incremental. It also gives valuable feedback on where your software/product is falling short at in users' eyes that you can then apply to future versions to maintain attachment ratios. If you ignore such statistics and only continue to chase first day sales, your sales will most likely plummet over time because you're not paying attention to vital feedback you're getting from users.

does Diablo 3 count? I have no idea what kind of changes went into the complete 180 in general opinion towards that game.

Diablo 3 is a great example actually. They've been moving back to a more Diablo 2 style game since RoS even going so far as to bring in a new team and get rid of Jay Wilson and crew for the very reasons people are talking about with Halo 5. And as a result their attachment rates for D3 have increased whereas before people continued to leave Diablo 3 faster than they were onboarding new players.
 

Malyse

Member
When you become the developers of a certain franchise, you owe it to the fans of the franchise some continuity on basic, core principles.

It's their right as do as they please with the game they create, but they owe it to the fans to create more games that they will like.

The concept of "owe" is not mutually exclusive with a devs right to create the game they want.
Full disagree. Look at Nintendo with Mario. Was anyone asking for a kart racer? Tennis game? Golf? Cross over fighter? Change is not a bad thing. And how do we know that this won't make halo the definitive FPS?

Furthermore, it's not like the old games cease to exist. I main, not only are they still playable, but you're getting arguably the best version of them in a single package.
 

J10

Banned
I don't think franchise fatigue is a problem with Halo - they're all three years apart. The mainline games that is.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom