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The Formula 1 2011 Season of Double World Champion Sebastian Vettel |OT2|
- Thread starter Leunam
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check youpor... err youtube
Neither, really. Pretty much just an inevitability. Each team has its strengths and weaknesses and none of the big-hitters are willing to agree to limit resources where their strengths lie and have less restrictions on where their competitor's strengths lie. You cant really blame them for that.
The teams banded together forming FOTA for a specific purpose, but now that that purpose has been met, there was no way they'd go on agreeing about everything. And as soon as that happened, FOTA would dissolve. Just the lack of inclusion of one big team would mean the other big teams would have to leave, too, otherwise risk being a part of a group limiting themselves while the outlier would be free from any agreed-upon restrictions.
This doesn't mean that Ferrari and Red Bull are just trying to get away with being restriction-free, but it signals their opinion that FOTA isn't viable anymore. As the Autosport article states, they will still be working to come to some agreement, albeit without some faux 'unified' stance.
RomanticHeroX
Member
Nico's hotter.
I'm glad RBR and Ferrari have taken a step. Some of the stepts taken in the name of cost reduction are ridiculous and gnaw at the heart of the sport. F1 is going to be expensive, and that's how it should be. There are some things that should be changed to keep costs from becoming absurd, but a lot of the changes in the past several years are too much and leave no one happy.
Psychotext
Member
Not exactly surprising is it. The only way Ferrari know how to succeed is by brute forcing it. Throw money at the problem until something sticks.
brotkasten
Member
Ferrari is the Microsoft of F1.
Red Bull is Apple and McLaren is Google? :lol Or is it the other way around?
Yeah Red Bull are like Apple.
Everyone loved them at first as they were something diffrent & cool but now they are worse than microsoft
Dont hurt me! 
Foliorum Viridum
Banned
Obviously!
Try and understand the situation before reverting to immediate 'bash Ferrari' mode.
This is not about wanting to spend more money. More about how to balance restrictions.
I think all the teams are in agreement that costs need to be kept back. Its merely a matter of what areas to cut these costs that they cant agree on.
Sleeplessnights
Banned
RomanticHeroX
Member
Psychotext
Member
You still assume I dislike Ferrari, mostly because I don't love them / accept their BS at face value like you seem to.
brotkasten
Member
Actually, McLaren is Apple, because they're the old rivals of Ferrari and Red Bull is Google, 'cus they're the new, cool and successful kids.
Sleeplessnights
Banned
Hmm. McLaren and Apple work places look a lot alike. Though McLaren hasn't made it to the top in a long time unlike Apple.
This isn't working.
I assume you dislike Ferrari because you're very quick to bash them. Even when there's no good justification for it, like you're doing now.
Why else would somebody be so completely unfair in their critique of them? I could suppose you're just kinda stupid, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.
McLaren is Apple just before the iPhone.
We Ferrari fans are very critical of our team. Some fans take it overboard and overreact and point fingers and call for heads and all, and others try and be a bit more reasonable about things.
Ferrari haven't had their best year ever, but it wasn't actually that bad. 10 podiums and a hard fight for 2nd in the WDC isn't what I'd call a 'ridiculous' year.
GTP_Daverytimes
Member
I have a question, if Scuderia debuts their new Ferrari will they supply Sauber with the new machines. How does it exactly work, cause i want Kobayashi to start moving up the grid. The balance issue got me to stop watching F1 a few years back, not having more than 3 teams competing in the top tier is rather annoying.
It has more to do with the car/aero than the engines. The engines are all 'more or less' the same
If Ferrari make any changes to the engines, Sauber will get the changed version. But for the most part, the engine will stay mostly the same going into 2012 and 2013. There are no customer cars in F1, so its up to Sauber to build the rest of the car themselves.
If you want to see Kobayashi higher on the grid, then hope he moves to a better team. Sauber simply dont have the resources to fight it out with the top guys. They did when they were partnered with BMW, but on their own, they'll pretty certain to remain in the midfield.
Even with cost-cutting measures applied, there's still only so much a team like Sauber can do.
Thats just not viable this day and age. Its an idealistic view, but hardly a practical one.
Edmond Dantès
Dantès the White
McLaren are the equivalent of Real Madrid in football. All their resources and yet flattering to deceive year in and year out. Two driver's titles and one constructor's title since 1998 is hardly the kind of success you'd expect from the team second only to Ferrari in terms of scale, resources and reputation.
Ron Dennis perpetuates the 'second is the first of the losers' ethos, so he must feel continual disappointment with this team.
One season where they're competitive from the beginning, is that so much to ask. Instead playing catch up all the time.
Ron Dennis perpetuates the 'second is the first of the losers' ethos, so he must feel continual disappointment with this team.
One season where they're competitive from the beginning, is that so much to ask. Instead playing catch up all the time.
Edmond Dantès
Dantès the White
Elitism in F1 has gone the way of the Dodo. No motorsport is immune to the economic zeitgeist, not least F1. Adapt or fade into obscurity like other once great championships.
GTP_Daverytimes
Member
Thanks.
Now i understand, in my opinion there should be customer cars. Other sports in the world are finding ways to level the playing field and i don't see a reason why F1 should be any different. I am a fan of GT racing and one of the awesome things about GT races is that anyone can win, for instant the last round of the FIA GT1 was won by a rookie (Both race 1 and 2). I even started getting into supergt and was amazed at how much places were traded between the field (in their respective classes) case in point:http://www.youtube.com/user/supergtracing#p/u/3/50xotmrVC2E
Psychotext
Member
Aside from a very, very long track record of them spitting the dummy when they don't get their own way you mean? You feel free to give them the benefit of the doubt... but I've been an F1 fan long enough to know better.
I'm struggling to remember a single year when they didn't hint about moving away from the sport if one thing or another wasn't changed. I'd wager if there was such a year in the last 25 of watching the sport, it would be the Schumacher dominance years. Though I'm sure they'd have had something to whine about then too.
I'm just as negative about all the other teams too, though none of them seem to have someone like you who is so quick to defend... and, sadly, resort to insults.
F1 is always gonna be a bit different. There's a small support for customer cars in F1, but most people would rather keep the sport a pure constructor's championship. I can see both sides of the argument.
Also, series like GT1 doesn't have manufacturers competing with other, its the racing teams. They go out of their way to make sure the cars are relatively equal beforehand and then the rest is up to the teams to make the most of it. This means its much harder for a team to 'outspend' their way to the front. The series also uses success ballast to punish anybody who does well, which I'm NOT a fan of at all. This creates more equal competition, but completely skews the picture of who is actually doing the better job.
SuperGT is a good formula, I agree. Its a rare mix of good competition, manufacturer supported teams, limited costs and fairly open development.
Equalizing performance isn't really feasible in F1, though. I think the best thing that could happen is for there to be an enforceable budget cap. The smallest teams would still get outspent and the medium-sized teams would still get beat more often than not due to the top teams having better resources and the more talented employees, but it could close things up some. Other than that, you'd really have to resort to diluting the F1 brand with gimmicks or customer cars or something. And thats something the F1 world really isn't ready to do.
Foliorum Viridum
Banned
I don't see why people put so much stock in Ferarri. Yeah they've always been there, always been at the top, a symbol of the sport etc but if Ferarri ever left would it really make that much of a difference?
I highly doubt it. They're just another team in the grand scheme of things. Teams rise and fall all the time, the sport survives. It would probably be a hit for the sport but not the apocalypse.
I highly doubt it. They're just another team in the grand scheme of things. Teams rise and fall all the time, the sport survives. It would probably be a hit for the sport but not the apocalypse.
This very instance is quite good evidence that you're preconceived notions are getting in the way of you actually being reasonable. Your very first instinct is to bash them and completely dismiss anything they say, which is what I would most definitely label a bias.
And no, you're not equally negative to other teams. I wouldn't be so quick to defend if it weren't so obvious that you have something against Ferrari and aren't being reasonable in your comments here. Like you saying this is just Ferrari wanting to outspend the competition to get to the top, when thats not the case if you bothered to pay attention. But no, you are more worried about keeping your preconceived notions, so you ignore everything that would possibly make your baseless assumption wrong and go along your merry way.
Psychotext
Member
I never said I wasn't biased. I don't like Ferrari. I don't like McLaren of late either nor Renault. I've been quick to criticise most teams this year, with the exception of probably Red Bull, and that's only because I still view them as an underdog to a certain extent. I'd wager that'll change soon.
However, you said that there wasn't justification for it. Their track record over the last 20 odd years (maybe longer, I don't know) is plenty of justification for me assuming the worst when it comes to Ferrari... when it comes to trying to get their own way anyway.
Anyway, you ignore me, I'll ignore you, no problems at all going forward, especially when it comes to your precious Ferrari.
Sadly I think it would probably be more than just a hit if they did leave. If they left they'd likely set up a competing formula... and that would mean other teams leaving too. Fanbase would end up being completely split.
GTP_Daverytimes
Member
Like you said the subject is a controversial one, some people agree with a level playing field others like it the way it is. I think the best example of what might happen to formula 1 is Motogp, in recent years Motogp has been losing a lot of ground to it's counterpart WSBK. The main reason people are leaving is the variety of bikes and the shear amount of bikes on the grid, granted 3 or 4 racers still dominate WSBK but the amount of bikes in the grid guarantees that you will see some action. The more people crave for variety in race winners the more they are going to be losing interest because they already know who is going to win, the bulk of people who watch F1 are not Mclaren, Ferrari or Red bull fans they are mostly neutral. The bulk of those people watch it for entertainment value and when it's not there people lose interest pretty quickly, another thing that i fucking hate is the lack of coverage that the midfielders get during races. Lets say Vettel is about to go into the pits and an amazing battle is taking place between a few midfielders the freaking camera will be showing me Vettel inside the pits when i could be watching a good battle unfold, seriously why can't F1(or Bernie and his colleagues) figure all this shit out.
And i agree Supergt is so good, if only JAF will get their heads out of their arse and give us some coverage overseas.
You did say plenty that I was wrong to assume you had anything against Ferrari. I'm very glad you can drop the charade now at least.
And while you may have your reasons for not liking them, its not fair to assume the worst in every case. For one, this is not the same Ferrari of even 10 years ago, let alone before that. Not saying they are completely different, but they've hardly been the tryannical villain of the sport as of late. Some people still think they are and try and twist everything they do or say into making it seem like they are, but seriously, try and take things on a case-by-case basis a bit more. You'd be surprised how much more you could learn about this stuff if you just put your bias aside once in a while to really look at the situation.
You're not the only one guilty of thinking the worst upon hearing that Ferrari left FOTA, and I could see how it might be seen as them just trying to find a way to get back to spending a ton of money, but that really isn't the case at all if you bothered to look at the situation closely and not immediately dismiss everything that Ferrari say as BS.
For instance, Ferrari have not backed out of their desire to come to an agreement with the RRA. They are still in talks about this. They just wont be doing it under the 'FOTA' banner anymore. Things really haven't changed all that much, to be honest. The big news is when or if they actually do come to an agreement.
Psychotext
Member
Not tyrannical villain, no, but my point was that they're always using the "leave F1" angle to get their own way... and it's so predictable and tedious at this point that yeah, it certainly colours my opinion of them.
2011: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...-warns-F1-teams-breakaway-sell-TV-rights.html
2010: http://en.espnf1.com/ferrari/motorsport/story/36638.html
2009: http://www.formula1blog.com/2009/06/14/ferrari-reform-or-breakaway-f1-formula-1/
2008: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/10/28/ferrari-may-leave-f1-if-standard-engine-approved/
But anyway, at this point neither of us is going to agree with each other and it's not really fair to shit up the thread so I wont be replying any more.
I dont think the current competitiveness in F1 is all that bad. Yes, Red Bull are class of the field, but the racing action has been pretty damn good this year. And with the banning of the exhaust-blown diffusers next year, Red Bull might have a large part of their advantage wiped away.
And really, most any prototype-based series like F1 or MotoGP are gonna have periods where a team simply dominates. It cant be helped. The whole point is to build a car or bike that is better than the competition. Some teams acheive that and then when you pair the best car with a top driver, you're gonna see what you saw this year with Vettel running away with things. F1 has always been like this, and it actually used to be worse when development was a lot more open. I think we've got it pretty good right now in terms of competition.
I mean, if you really dont like this aspect of it, it may not be the sport for you. Like you pointed out, there's other series that do the 'close competition' thing better. F1 is as much of a competition of engineering as it is a competition of drivers, though.
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
wonderkins
Member
Leave Britney alone.
I never really understood the testing restrictions. Sure it costs money, but now it's just about who can spend most money on simulations. It's not like the F1 teams will just stop using money. I think some (not unrestricted) testing would benefit the sport.
Wouldn't it possibly lead to faster development of new parts? Meaning you'd have more evolution during a single season, and it's not pretty much status quo from the start to the end of the season. Except Renault. Those guys pummeled.
Tough topic. I just think it's a shame that it's down to who has the best simulators.
Wouldn't it possibly lead to faster development of new parts? Meaning you'd have more evolution during a single season, and it's not pretty much status quo from the start to the end of the season. Except Renault. Those guys pummeled.
Tough topic. I just think it's a shame that it's down to who has the best simulators.
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
I'm back Gents! I was nearly in the hospital for the past few weeks. Thankfully I'm better and can rejoin the F1 Banter
welcome back
I think the full fledged testing cost the teams a lot. the big teams used to have another full team just to do the testing, smaller would never be able to afford that so the testing restriction was more of 2-in-1 thing. cust costs and create a more level playing field
as for the simulators, its true that they help a lot, but you can never replace circuit testing
Myoclonic Jerk
Member
Kimi visits Renault factory and will celebrate Xmas with them
Isn't it to early to show them that side of you Kimi? lol
google translate this
http://www.f1arab.com/news/19156/
Isn't it to early to show them that side of you Kimi? lol
google translate this
http://www.f1arab.com/news/19156/
Psychotext
Member
Just off camera in the background you can see pallets of vodka being brought in by a fork lift truck...
Look at it the other way, why should they have their hands tied?
Resource restriction is for pikeys.
brotkasten
Member
So HRT can catch up to them.
Adam Scott Aukerman
Member
2000-2004
Ferrari needs Formula 1, and Formula 1 needs Ferrari. It would be like United being relegated to division 1 instantly from the Premier League.
Nice to see the Ferrari defence force has already come out in full force, next year should be fun.
I jest, I just can't be bothered to read arguments I've read a hundred times before.
Foliorum Viridum
Banned
Nah. Don't buy it. No team is bigger than the sport. It would survive, life would go on, other teams would climb the ranks.
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