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The Formula 1 2011 Season of Vettel Fingering the Competition |OT|

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elfinke

Member
SCHUEY F1 said:

Thanks for that - I'm awfully jelly that we don't get coverage like this in Australia.

As for the race itself...

I really enjoyed Hamilton's aggressive - but controlled - racing this time around. I enjoyed his post race interview even more. Dry sports like F1 and Rugby Union could use more personalities like him. In fact, BBC's coverage last night (which I watched exclusively ahead of our local HD channels coverage) really rammed home how on top of their game they are, from go to whoah I enjoyed it.

Schuey's drive was good fun, and was complemented well by Brundle's on point dry wit commentary on Schuey's drive.

I felt so sorry for Button. What a muck up by the pit controller?!

Mrs elfinke really had enjoyed the race up to this point. It was lap ~48/52 and she was somewhat into it, the first race I have had her occupy the couch next to me for this season.

Then the RBR pit radio came through.

"Maintain the gap Mark". Those now infamous words rang through my speakers.

"What does that mean?" Mrs elfinke asks.

I explain, carefully choosing my words so as to not let my sheer annoyance and frustration come through, drawing comparisons to the Ferrari teams orders of the Schuey yesteryears, and the Tour De France conversation we had had earlier that day, and then concluded by explaining that F1 is supposedly a team sport and so team/constructor points are more important than individuals blah blah blah.

In the end, I give up and let my own feelings on the matter flow through my mouth.

It is now the on board camera of Webber dicing with Vettel near the old pit complex (andnotasinglefuckwasgiven.gif). Mrs elfinke gets up to leave the room. "Wait!" I hastily exclaim, "This could be really exciting?!"

"I don't care if it is" she retorts, and went to bed to watch Phil Spencer talk about houses or something.

Feeling dejected and let down by RBR and the sport in general, I watch the race conclude. My earlier frustration boils over when I hear Jordan try to defend the matter (note, not the individual decision but instead the overriding principle that dictated it. I'll come back to this).

And so F1 has lost a pseudo-casual fan this year; this morning over breakfast Mrs elfinke declared that what little interest she did have in watching the season dissipated last night, a feeling further exacerbated by me explaining the impact last night had on the driver's points championship standings.

All the 'it's a team sport' rhetoric ring hollow, not in the least because I'm sure Webber's pit crew are as much a part of 'a team' as Vettel's. And the thought that had the roles been reversed a different order wouldn't have been given doesn't ring true to me, though I am willing to give RBR the benefit of the doubt until such an event occurs.

But getting back to Jordan, I agree with him - in the moment last night, it was the right decision. The sport allows for those decisions to be made, and so RBR had no choice but to make that decision for the betterment of the team, as Coulthard(?) said later on, RBR were "damned if they, damned if they don't" in that case. The way it stands, the teams have no obligation to make F1 interesting to watch or fun to spectate - they have an obligation to win races and get points. That's all. Until that paradigm changes we are stuck with the current set up.

Outside of that, the principle of the decision is fucked. I payed nothing to watch that race, and I still felt ripped off. I have little-to-nothing invested in any of the drivers and especially none of the teams, beyond fleeting moments of joy after a good overtake, gaiety after Schuey loses another front wing, or conversely moments of rage after a dumb move or sorrow after some misfortune. Having nothing invested to me means a negative net result for my overall disposition towards the sport after a race like last night.

Anyway, this little story was fun to write down and I'm only half serious :D

As a casual fan though, fuck team orders.

/edit: Some unsurprising news http://www.smh.com.au/sport/motorsp...team-orders-20110711-1ha9i.html#ixzz1Rm5jAn4P
 

Shaneus

Member
From that link elfinke posted:
"I can understand Mark's frustration in that, but had it been the other way round, it would have been exactly the same." said Horner

Just quietly, I'm calling bullshit on that.
 

Dead Man

Member
Shaneus said:
Was there any word on why Webber was able to catch Seb toward the end? Seb saving fuel or is Mark just that awesome?
Seb was at the end of a very long stint since he fried his tyres behind Ham and had to pit early. As ever, he seems much less dominant when not leading.
 

navanman

Crown Prince of Custom Firmware
Dead Man said:
As ever, he seems much less dominant when not leading.
This...
Vettel wins the race in the first 3 laps leading from the front.
He has looked as ordinary as Webber when behind the Ferrari's and McLaren as shown yesterday.
Still an amazing driver obviously.
 

Dead Man

Member
navanman said:
This...
Vettel wins the race in the first 3 laps leading from the front.
He has looked as ordinary as Webber when behind the Ferrari's and McLaren as shown yesterday.
Still an amazing driver obviously.
Yeah, his sheer pace is outstanding, but he seems to struggle as much as anyone when in traffic.
 
'Not very loud cheering was heard from the amazing British fans in front of this fantastic Pit Building and new circuit layout'


'Who cares...'

488_medium.jpg
 

ashk

Member
Dead Man said:
Yeah, his sheer pace is outstanding, but he seems to struggle as much as anyone when in traffic.

He's one of the fastest drivers in F1 in sheer lap times, but I'd say he's nowhere near the top guys in overtaking prowess. For example, there was a point in the race where Hamilton was faster than Alonso, and so Hamilton overtook him. Later on Alonso was faster than Hamilton, so Alonso then overtook Hamilton. When Vettel was faster than Hamilton he couldn't overtake him, instead he had to go for the undercut. Maybe there were some circumstances that I'm not aware of, but I still think it's a fair point.
 

operon

Member
What a race, really glad Alonso one, once he got ahead he just went into distance.

Couple of points.
Schumi had a good race, except for the crash with kobayashi which ruined his race, but his pace was good. The complete bias against him shown by the bbc is getting real old now, nico had another bad start nothing mentioned, adn when schumi started getting the fastest laps on the slicks again nothing mentioned til button posted a fast lap. Its getting old real fast now.

Red Bull and the team orders things was just a joke. A team that made such a song and about allowing their team to race against each other and then tell mark to hold the gap was just pathetic. Yes you can understand it, but to tell all and sundry you hate team orders and then employ them, Horner shouldn't be surprised about the back lash. It was nearly as bad as when Ferrari told Barichello to move over for Schumi when he had sucha lead in the championship. Vettel has an 80 points lead, the might as well give him the trophy now.

And I jumped up to 30th in the fantasy league so that was another plus.
 

Nolan.

Member
Dead Man said:
Seb was at the end of a very long stint since he fried his tyres behind Ham and had to pit early. As ever, he seems much less dominant when not leading.

I think that's another thing that was pretty much glaring to me during this race, I don't think he's much of a fighter through the field. I know a lot of people won't agree but I'm still not sold on him being in the same league as say Alonso and Hamilton. Most notably he had to pit to get the undercut on Hamilton to jump him because he couldn't overtake, despite Hamilton conserving fuel and being on older tyres yet Alonso did it just fine. I think Webber would have had him for supper without the distractions in his ear.


justjohn said:
Hamilton needs to leave mclaren.

I disagree, just swap Whitmarsh with Jonathan Neale and perhaps some other areas needs a little re-shuffle but they're a great team that just needs to be more directed...and listen to their drivers better
 
When Vettel pit to undercut Hamilton I couldn't stop laughing, this is the world champion and the only way he could overtake a slower car was to jump him in the pits. He has amazing pace but he wouldn't rank anywhere near Alonso or Hamilton for pure driving skill and overtaking ability. Edit: exactly what was said above
 

Dead Man

Member
Here's a question. Pretend you are a team manager and you have a car that is able to challenge for the front but not dominate like RBR. Who are your two drivers?

For me it would be Alonso and Kubica (assuming he comes back on song). They both seem to be the best at getting as much performance out of a car as possible, without throwing away results.
 
I'm starting to think that the Red Bull is designed to win from pole. Every time one of them gets stuck behind a car that's only a little slower (rather than a midfield runner) it starts to look significantly less impressive.

That goes for Webber and Vettel. I don't think I've seen either of them pull off overtakes on other top runners without relying on mistakes / tyre differences / massive DRS zones.
 
Road said:
But Button and Hamilton just crashed...

3 points are also extremely important.
Yeah they did, but in extreme weather and how many times have they been side by side, racing flat out and not made contact? Too many times to count.

And three points is important with Vettel's lead? C'mon. I know anything can happen but odds are Vettel won't need those points to win.
 

avaya

Member
The idea that because Vettel couldn't pass Lewis the same way Alonso could making him a class below them is utterly laughable.

Ignores the difference in chatscteritics between the Ferrari and the Red Bull. Red Bull have always struggled in a straight line vs the other teams. Saying that trying the undercut makes you a worse driver is tres amusing.

Vettel has shown so far this tear that he is definitely in the top tier of drivers, people are in pure denial if they think otherwise.

As for McLaren yeah they're fucked, they were never really the top development team. Ferrari have been for some years. They don't just need a reshuffle they need new people. They're best cars in recent years have been due to Newey, Tombazis and stolen information. They currently dont have any of that so we see them revert to their true status. They just take very large risks in design these days and it shows.
 

avaya

Member
brotkasten said:
I don't know why, but it feels good looking at this picture. It's like Fernando really wants to be in this team, even though they're not running for the championship in this season. Sounds silly, I know.

This is true for every driver when they drive for Ferrari. The magic never stops.
 
Psychotext said:
I'm starting to think that the Red Bull is designed to win from pole. Every time one of them gets stuck behind a car that's only a little slower (rather than a midfield runner) it starts to look significantly less impressive.

That goes for Webber and Vettel. I don't think I've seen either of them pull off overtakes on other top runners without relying on mistakes / tyre differences / massive DRS zones.

That was very evident last season especialy when you've seen how unstable the RB became when following other cars. If you think about it it's quite logic. The RB was/is the car that generates the most downforce due to it's aerodynamics, hence it's also the car most prone to get disturbed by dirty air.

When i read comments from people who consider Vettel a lesser race driver because overtaking isn't his strong point i think that's laughable. Show me one top driver in the history who didn't have at least one weak skill or character trait in relation to his other attributes.

That said it's also unfair to look at Vettel's battle with Hamilton yesterday and compare it with Alonso and Webber who overtook him with ease. Against Vettel he put on a fight. Against the other two he more or less drove to the side to let them pass.
 
operon said:
What a race, really glad Alonso one, once he got ahead he just went into distance.

Couple of points.
Schumi had a good race, except for the crash with kobayashi which ruined his race, but his pace was good. The complete bias against him shown by the bbc is getting real old now, nico had another bad start nothing mentioned, adn when schumi started getting the fastest laps on the slicks again nothing mentioned til button posted a fast lap. Its getting old real fast now.
Well they are playing to their crowd, & they (EJ DC & MB) have reasons not to like Schumi.
Red Bull and the team orders things was just a joke. A team that made such a song and about allowing their team to race against each other and then tell mark to hold the gap was just pathetic. Yes you can understand it, but to tell all and sundry you hate team orders and then employ them, Horner shouldn't be surprised about the back lash. It was nearly as bad as when Ferrari told Barichello to move over for Schumi when he had sucha lead in the championship. Vettel has an 80 points lead, the might as well give him the trophy now.

And I jumped up to 30th in the fantasy league so that was another plus.

I don't think that Horner was trying to protect Vettel, it was more the 33 point RB would have lost in the constructors championship, & for all those questioning team orders would you rather one driver per team & less drivers on track?
 
Cerebral Assassin said:
Well they are playing to their crowd, & they (EJ DC & MB) have reasons not to like Schumi.


I don't think that Horner was trying to protect Vettel, it was more the 33 point RB would have lost in the constructors championship, & for all those questioning team orders would you rather one driver per team & less drivers on track?
If he wasn't protecting Vettel, then why didn't he order him to let Webber through? Mark was clearly faster, wanted to overtake, Vettel didn't need the points.
 
brotkasten said:
If he wasn't protecting Vettel, then why didn't he order him to let Webber through? Mark was clearly faster, wanted to overtake, Vettel didn't need the points.
Isn't that pretty much exactly what he lambasted Ferrari for last year? He'd look a bit stupid if he did. It's one thing telling your drivers that the positions were decided at the final stop (which is fairly customary in F1), it's another to tell one of them to give up their place to another driver with only 2 laps left.
 

operon

Member
Cerebral Assassin said:
Well they are playing to their crowd, & they (EJ DC & MB) have reasons not to like Schumi.


I don't think that Horner was trying to protect Vettel, it was more the 33 point RB would have lost in the constructors championship, & for all those questioning team orders would you rather one driver per team & less drivers on track?

The problem I have and most others is, red bull were one of the teams who said they never employ team orders, and when last year Massa was told to move over for Alonso, they said it was bad for the sport. Yes it s legal and I can understand. But no one should be surprised by us calling the pot black
 

operon

Member
I'm finding it strange that people don't see what our problem is with what Red Bull done yesterday. Red Bull get a lot of kudos from the fact they (did) let their drivers race and didn't employ team orders.
"We will back both drivers equally, and both drivers drive for the team," said Horner. "I am sure they will do whatever is right for the team. I have zero doubt about that. So there will be no team orders, and I don't think there are any difficult decisions to be made. If they find themselves in a situation where one, because he can't win, needs to help the other then I can only imagine that they will do that. It will have to be a driver decision."
Thats what said going in to the last race of the season, when either of his 2 drivers could have won the race, not if he wasn't worried enough back then in losing the race to his drivers crashing, why then did they go against everything they have preached against to save 3 points
 
brotkasten said:
If he wasn't protecting Vettel, then why didn't he order him to let Webber through? Mark was clearly faster, wanted to overtake, Vettel didn't need the points.

The reason he gave was that Vettel was hampered by mistakes made by the team, without those he would have been well clear of Webber, & asking someone to move over is worse than asking someone to back off.
 
SunhiLegend said:
When Vettel pit to undercut Hamilton I couldn't stop laughing, this is the world champion and the only way he could overtake a slower car was to jump him in the pits. He has amazing pace but he wouldn't rank anywhere near Alonso or Hamilton for pure driving skill and overtaking ability. Edit: exactly what was said above

:lol


alonso and hamilton have been stuck behind a slower car for many a laps before, this year in fact.

- alonso/vettel at monaco

- hamilton/vettel at barcelona


all three are shit overtakers and sutil is the master.

2010 castrol overtaking rankings:

01. Adrian Sutil 40
02. Felipe Massa 37
03. Jaime Alguersuari 31
04. Fernando Alonso 31
05. Rubens Barrichello 29
06. Vitantonio Liuzzi 29
07. Lewis Hamilton 26
08. Sebastian Vettel 20
09. Nico Rosberg 20
10. Mark Webber 18
 
Psychotext said:
Isn't that pretty much exactly what he lambasted Ferrari for last year? He'd look a bit stupid if he did. It's one thing telling your drivers that the positions were decided at the final stop (which is fairly customary in F1), it's another to tell one of them to give up their place to another driver with only 2 laps left.
I don't see a difference between Ferrari's team order last year and Red Bull's team order yesterday. Both teams did it to ensure that their No. 1 driver could get more points. Horner's excuse is what it is, bullshit.

Cerebral Assassin said:
The reason he gave was that Vettel was hampered by mistakes made by the team, without those he would have been well clear of Webber, & asking someone to move over is worse than asking someone to back off.
Yeah, but that's racing. It happens. You can suddenly decide that it's not fair to overtake your teammate, just because his crew fucked up the pit stop.
 
brotkasten said:
I don't see a difference between Ferrari's team order last year and Red Bull's team order yesterday. Both teams did it to ensure that their No. 1 driver could get more points. Horner's excuse is what it is, bullshit.
F1 has been using the "you can race until the final pitstop" method in teams for as long as I can remember... pretty much every team has done it at some point or another (Especially Mclaren).

To me it's the difference between saying "you can never win a race when the lead driver is behind you" (See Ferrari) and "you can win a race as long as you get past before all the pitstops are done".

It's just my personal opinion, but swapping positions sickens me, and has done since I started watching F1 25 years ago. I can deal with teams telling their drivers to hold positions... especially when their drivers have a history of crashing.
 

S. L.

Member
Psychotext said:
I'm starting to think that the Red Bull is designed to win from pole. Every time one of them gets stuck behind a car that's only a little slower (rather than a midfield runner) it starts to look significantly less impressive.

That goes for Webber and Vettel. I don't think I've seen either of them pull off overtakes on other top runners without relying on mistakes / tyre differences / massive DRS zones.
i think that's pretty clear. The cars aren't very fast on the straight/drs straight but in corners and slower sections. And they don't seem to take dirty air too well.
But i don't see how that makes them any less impressive. They are designed to go in the fastest possible time around the track which ususally results in start-finish victories - and they don't do any compromises for anything else.


Foliorum Viridum said:
And three points is important with Vettel's lead? C'mon. I know anything can happen but odds are Vettel won't need those points to win.
giving three points away from their leading driver would be just foolish and arrogant.
 
Psychotext said:
F1 has been using the "you can race until the final pitstop" method in teams for as long as I can remember... pretty much every team has done it at some point or another (Especially Mclaren).

To me it's the difference between saying "you can never win a race when the lead driver is behind you" (See Ferrari) and "you can win a race as long as you get past before all the pitstops are done".

It's just my personal opinion, but swapping positions sickens me, and has done since I started watching F1 25 years ago. I can deal with teams telling their drivers to hold positions... especially when their drivers have a history of crashing.

I don't completely agree with you, but I see your point. I guess I'm just spoiled by the MotoGP races, where the drivers battle til the end, teammate or not. (and yes, I know that you can't compare both sports).
 
Psychotext said:
F1 has been using the "you can race until the final pitstop" method in teams for as long as I can remember... pretty much every team has done it at some point or another (Especially Mclaren).

Didn't DC & Hakkinen once have a deal that whoever got to the 1st corner 1st would be "allowed" by the other to win the race?

Yeah, but that's racing. It happens. You can suddenly decide that it's not fair to overtake your teammate, just because his crew fucked up the pit stop.

Of course you can (I assume you meant can't) Horners 1st priority is to win the constructors championship, & as Webber had/has very little chance to win the drivers championship what is the point to potentially endanger 2 podiums?
 
Dilly said:
Monaco really isn't an example for overtaking abilities.

How about Petrov at Abu Dhabi then? With the championship on the line he couldn't even get past a slow Renault. :lol


Some overtaker that guy is - should we rank him with Vettel, SunhiLegend?
 

S. L.

Member
SunhiLegend said:
When Vettel pit to undercut Hamilton I couldn't stop laughing, this is the world champion and the only way he could overtake a slower car was to jump him in the pits. He has amazing pace but he wouldn't rank anywhere near Alonso or Hamilton for pure driving skill and overtaking ability. Edit: exactly what was said above
Vettel should be applauded for that! Last year he maybe wouldn't have been that sensible.
The RBR clearly didn't have the straightline speed to riskfree overtake in the DRS zone and Vettel only really had one good chance to overtake Hamilton but he backed out on that one because it was an unnecessary risk to go over the wet - especially when he easily could undercut him with a pitstop. (you could literally see Vettel backing out of it early)
In Vettels championship position it would be absolutely foolish to take any risk that could lead to a DNF
 
If I was Webber I would've kept trying for the pass and cite radio problems afterwards. "Sorry, you were breaking up towards the end there..."

Great race overall.
 

operon

Member
Cerebral Assassin said:
Didn't DC & Hakkinen once have a deal that whoever got to the 1st corner 1st would be "allowed" by the other to win the race?



Of course you can (I assume you meant can't) Horners 1st priority is to win the constructors championship, & as Webber had/has very little chance to win the drivers championship what is the point to potentially endanger 2 podiums?

Yes, they had a gentleman's agreement I think, whoever was leading after the first corner won the race
 

Dilly

Banned
Wax Free Vanilla said:
How about Petrov at Abu Dhabi then? With the championship on the line he couldn't even get past a slow Renault. :lol


Some overtaker that guy is - should we rank him with Vettel, SunhiLegend?

He's fourth in that ranking you posted.
 
Sooo... what's going to be used as Alonso's "finger"? The pointing motion he made when he got out of the car, or the fist he made on the podium?
 
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